Thank you, knew a little of that but you fleshed it out a bit more. Love history, especially ancient history.

Have read as much as I can find of Petra. It has underground cisterns and a unique rainwater collection system, that if repaired, could support a large number of people. I try to keep tabs on it, thinking some construction or restorations may be made in the near future.

The Golan is where the fallen angels first landed. There is an ancient temple on one of its peaks that can only be reached by a counter-clockwise path. Below the peak is a cave called the Gates of Hell. This is believed to be where Jesus made the statement in Matt. 16:18 "I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it". It's also known as the area of Bashan ruled by the giant Og in David's time. In Psalms 22:12 foreshadowing Jesus's crucifixion, "Many bulls of Bashan have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me". Demons are the offspring/hybrids of fallen angels and human women, half human and half immortal. So when they die their souls wander seeking who they can devour or lead astray. I always think of that when I think of the crucifixion. The demons were there laughing at Jesus as He surrendered His spirit. Three days later they were laughing no longer. We really don't wrestle with flesh and blood. Enoch told the fallen ones God has denied their petition. So, rebels do what rebels do, they want revenge, so they want to destroy as many of God's children as they can.

When I think of Mecca and the Ka'aba and black stone. I remember Arabs circle it counterclockwise. It may be a meteorite (cast down to Earth like lightning) but it's still a stone and people worship it.

If you see one or two rabbits there are always more you don't see. I never see deer during the day in my area. I live a little north of the airport. But if I make a midnight run to a nearby grocery store they are all over this area. Two nights ago I saw about a dozen of them near 281 and 1604. Guess they're urbanites. Traffic doesn't panic them.

Peewee,

I agree about history, to know where we were, and why we now are where we are is fascinating.

I still don't believe it is possible for demons who are spiritual beings, without flesh and blood, to be able in any way, shape or form, to mate with human beings.

There is no "there" there.

Remember repeatedly in Genesis... Each is to procreate and reproduce "after its own kind."

The pictures I've seen of Petra are absolutely beautiful. Think of the time required to hand carve buildings from rose colored stone.

Demons, although fallen, are eternal spirit creatures. They, as the angels, do not die. Why would they have souls? Why would they need souls? Without a body, where would they keep them?


Get back to me with chapter and verse.

The Black Stone of Mecca/Al-Ḥajaru al-Aswad, "Black Stone", or Kaaba Stone, is a Muslim relic still worshiped. It is the eastern cornerstone of the Ka'aba, the ancient sacred stone building towards which Muslims pray, in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.

Long before Muhammad claimed he had rewritten their religion at Mecca, the Goddess was Shaybah or Sheba, "the Old Woman," worshiped as a black aniconic (symbolic) stone like the Goddess of the Scythian Amazons.

As in the days of Noah are coming back and will be worse than before. If I said demons mated with women, I didn't mean to. I meant to say fallen angels mated with women. That produced the giants or Nephilim and they also mated with women, but when they died their spirit had no place to go, yet. They then became demons serving Satan who is in chains somewhere inside the Earth. Most Jewish or Hebrew writing suggest something more than giving Eve a piece of fruit happened in the garden. It seems the something more was sex but it could have been gene manipulation. I believe those Greek gods were based on the Nephilim or Titans. Just a theory but it makes sense to me. There were giants before and after the flood. Did a half immortal half human survive on a log jam during the flood or did Noah's son's wives have a recessive gene that produced giants later on? It's the only two possibilities I can think of.

Gen 6: 2 and they took wives for themselves
6:3 God says "my" spirit, so angels probably have a spirit also and so would their offspring, kind after kind.
6:4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward. After what? The flood.
6:12 All flesh was corrupt and evil continually. So unless the sons married their sisters the possibility for a recessive gene is there.

I may be wrong but God never lies. It's one of the things God can't do.

Any insight you wish to contribute on the subject would be appreciated, bahmer.

1. I have read there is doubt of the authenticity of the extant Scriptures claiming to have been written by Enoch, though I haven't exhaustively studied them. I know Jude said Enoch wrote Scriptures in antiquity, but they may well be lost to us.

2. I consider fallen angels and demons to be two different names for the same spirit creatures. I don't believe it is possible that either could have evolved into flesh and blood.

You can jump into this fray anytime the spirit so moves you...

As American Christians, we still have the freedom to choose to believe and to worship as we please. Let us appreciate this and take advantage of it to the fullest, as we pray to thank Almighty God and petition Him, that our freedom may continue, and always in Jesus' Name.

Chinese City Pays Citizens $1,500 to Be a ‘Mini Judas’ and Turn in Christians
Persecution Rising in China

| ChristianHeadlines.com | Wednesday, April 3, 2019


China’s crackdown on Christianity escalated on March 20th when the government of the fifth-largest city began issuing rewards to those who report “illegal religious activities,” including house church meetings.

The Bureau of Ethnic and Religious Affairs in Guangzhou said it would reward prizes of 3,000, 5,000 and 10,000 yuan ($450, $750 and $1,500 U.S.) to Chinese citizens who spot and turn in their neighbors to government officials, according to Asia News.

The size of the prize will depend on the scale of the illegal activity.

All churches in China are required to register with the government. Some churches, though, face severe restrictions in how they worship and practice their faith. Because of this, millions of Chinese Christians worship underground.

“The authorities could not have picked a better time, just before Easter to introduce these measures,” a priest told AsiaNews. “At this time, we often meditate on the passion of Jesus and Judas’ treachery for 30 pieces of silver. The Guangzhou government wants to turn people into many mini Judas.”

Guangzhou, with 11 million people, is the fifth-largest city in China and the capital of the province of Guangdong.

Last year Guangzhou authorities shut down the 5,000-member Rongguili Church, but members still meet in homes, Asia News reported.

Referencing the new regulations, one Christian woman told the website, “Now here in China we live in a Big Brother atmosphere.” Under the new law, citizens can report suspicious Christian activities at the government office, by phone or via letter.

The law lists as dangerous people who “establish religious places without authorization; non-religious groups; non-religious institutions; non-religious places, temporary places of worship, religious activities and religious donations.” This includes “organizing unauthorized religious courses, conferences, unauthorized pilgrimages,” AsiaNews said.

Children under 18 are not allowed to take part in Mass or catechism, according to AsiaNews.

What little freedom Chinese Christians had is now being taken away: Provincial officials have demolished crosses, cracked down on house churches, arrested pastors, and put officially-recognized churches under tighter control.

Thus, the recent report out of Liaoning province, a region near the border with North Korea, shouldn’t surprise us. It should trouble and appall us, but not surprise us.

According to the Australian website MercatorNet, the Education Bureau of Lishan district” in Liaoning “issued a plan for the campaign to resist religious beliefs in kindergartens.”

The plan prohibits schools from “hiring new teachers who hold religious beliefs.” With regard to existing teachers, it calls for increased supervision, including “comprehensive inspections of teachers’ preparation for lessons in order to root out any and all religious content.”

But the plan doesn’t stop with teachers. Students, as well as teachers, are now required to “sign a commitment statement promising they won’t browse religious websites or participate in religious forums.” The statement reads in part, “I will adhere to the correct political direction, advocate science, promote atheism, and oppose theism.”

These are kindergartners!

It’s not only in that province. Students in other parts of China have also been coerced into signing anti-religious pledges. And there are reports of students who, because they refused to sign, have been beaten.

Christians have been in the crosshairs of the Xi Jinping cult. Believers in south China have been forced to take down pictures of Jesus from their walls and replace them with pictures of Xi Jinping.

Not only is he a jealous would-be god, he’s also an insecure one. To understand why, you need to understand that the source of the Communist Party’s legitimacy has been economic growth. For the past forty years, the Chinese people have been asked to trade certain freedoms that we take for granted, such as freedom of speech and religion, for increasing prosperity. That trade has preserved a measure of social order.

But now, many economists see signs that the good times are coming to an end in China. In fact, that may be an understatement. It could be something even worse. As the Wall Street Journal reports, “China’s consumers and businesses are losing confidence. Car sales have plunged. The housing market is stumbling. Some factories are letting workers off for the big Lunar New Year holiday two months early.”

Unfortunately, short of divine intervention, it may be that things will get significantly worse. Xi Jinping has become the most powerful Chinese leader since Mao. Like Mao, Xi has fostered a cult of personality. He calls himself lingxiu, a reverential term for “leader” not heard since the days of Mao. It’s very similar to what Fuehrer means in German. Fawning coverage of Xi in official media borders on self-parody.

In other words, the Communist Party may not be able to keep up its end of the bargain. If they fail, ordinary Chinese people could remember everything they’ve had to put up with and get angry. Very angry.

So how will Xi respond to this? We already know the answer to that question. He will crack down even harder. Cult leaders don’t admit mistakes, much less give up their power voluntarily. They look for scapegoats and hunt for heretics.

In China, Christians qualify as both. As adherents to what many Chinese regard as a “Western” religion, their loyalties can be called into question. And they’ll likely not join Xi’s cult of personality, so they will be ideal targets.

All of this is why our Christian brothers and sisters there need our prayers. And our voice. We must urge our our government and all U. S. corporations that do business in China to use their influence on behalf of persecuted Chinese Christians.



Michael Foust
John Stonestreet, Roberto Rivera

I have not really wrestled with this as obviously Peewee and yourself have. The Bible professor that my late wife and I had went over this and as I recall which has been many many years ago had a similar rendition as does Peewee and that is that these angels that were cast out of heaven did in fact have intercourse with women on earth and thus produced giants as their offspring. I think that I read something that Peewee sent me that said the same thing I am not sure whether it was from Peewee or someone else.

As in the days of Noah are coming back and will be worse than before. If I said demons mated with women, I didn't mean to. I meant to say fallen angels mated with women. That produced the giants or Nephilim and they also mated with women, but when they died their spirit had no place to go, yet. They then became demons serving Satan who is in chains somewhere inside the Earth. Most Jewish or Hebrew writing suggest something more than giving Eve a piece of fruit happened in the garden. It seems the something more was sex but it could have been gene manipulation. I believe those Greek gods were based on the Nephilim or Titans. Just a theory but it makes sense to me. There were giants before and after the flood. Did a half immortal half human survive on a log jam during the flood or did Noah's son's wives have a recessive gene that produced giants later on? It's the only two possibilities I can think of.

Gen 6: 2 and they took wives for themselves
6:3 God says "my" spirit, so angels probably have a spirit also and so would their offspring, kind after kind.
6:4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward. After what? The flood.
6:12 All flesh was corrupt and evil continually. So unless the sons married their sisters the possibility for a recessive gene is there.

I may be wrong but God never lies. It's one of the things God can't do.