jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Why do you think stock buy back should be illegal?
If you and I started a corporation that grew and hit the market. To grow we sold stock and years later had grown with cash capital to buy back our stock, we then would profit more instead of paying stock holders profits. In the long run increasing our cash assets. I don't see the downside of fewer stock owners making more profit.

I'm in complete agreement with a flat tax. But I'm also in agreement with what Trump did with the corporate tax. Everyone is focused on the mega corporations getting a Hugh tax break, but in truth it's the 90% of corporations that benifits from the cuts are small businesses and pass throughs. They are the heartbeat of Americas economy and our liberals if they had their way would tax them out of business. The tax cuts for the fraction of total corporations that the left continues pounding, the wealthiest should have the tax cuts also, but.... They needed to lose many of the exemptions for a fairer tax code. I think Trump did the best he could do and not what he wanted, but given the 100% opposition including the Rhino's, took what he could get for now. Also the tax cuts for middle America will be extended when they expire unless the left has power in both houses.

JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida

Funny you said that jack. I’m on the ground floor of forming a new Corp. I actually should have looked into the buy back thing more. It just feels wrong. I know one thing all the whiners that whine about corporate tax breaks have never put there money at risk. Every dime we have in this new Corp being formed could go poof tomorrow. If we are successful why shouldn’t we get a tax break ? I agree, Trump did the best he could. He’s between RINO’s and procommunists economically.

son of witless

" "China wasn't actually screwing us. They were just one of the few trading partners with the power to NOT be screwed by America. "

" That statement proves my point that you are clueless. "

China is intent on becoming the dominant power not only in the Pacific, but in the World. They remember their history, we Americans are too stupid to bother to remember our's. In the first half of the 15th Century China was arguably the richest, most technologically advanced, and the most militarily powerful nation on earth. A change in political leadership threw that away. The Communist leadership of today is determined to do what is necessary to reclaim that former position. China will conquer the small territories around it. It will dominate it's neighbors like Japan, the Philippines, and Taiwan. It will brutally tyrannize the ethnic minorities within it's territories like the Tibetans and the Uighur s. It will happily engage in Mercantilism against it's clueless trading partners like America and Europe, while stealing their technology. It is constantly expanding it's military and upgrading their quality.

Just like the US stood in the way of Imperial Japan's goal to conquer Asia, the US is the only credible obstacle to China's dreams. Their leadership, like Putin is always ready to take advantage of weak leaders such as Barak the Obama who do not understand history or world politics.

" You can say what you want about Obama vs Trump, but the evidence so far indicates that Obama got results, so far all Trump has given us is entertainment. "

Okay, I will bite. What Obama derived results do you wish to present as evidence.

" We don't live in history witless. We MAKE history. It's important to understand this because sometimes patterns change and you're not going to see that if you're constantly expecting history to repeat itself verbatim. "

That is a cute little slogan. I agree that patterns change. Patterns also repeat themselves. Since the Cold War ended we are reverting to more of a pre WWI Military-Political reality. If you have never studied that period, you will not recognize the actions of politicians and nations repeating the mistakes of that time.

" Even now I'm watching you folks cheering the slow the death of our own Republic as you push for smaller government and more privatization. "

Except for the " as you push for smaller government and more privatization " , I was saying the exact same thing during the Dark Age aka. the Obama Years.

" Russia is almost entirely capitalist now, the ONLY sectors still under central control is energy and defense. "

That is incorrect.

" You making a huge assumption here that impeaching Trump would weaken America. " The process of Impeaching any President would weaken the country. I fail to see how you fail to see that.

" I will concede, I didn't know "judgement" was acceptable. I learn something every day and you finally scored a point on an "unimportant" issue ;) "

I live for small victories, but I thank you for bothering to acknowledge it. None, and I mean none of your fellow Liberals would have ever done that. They would have called me stupid and told me to shut up.

straightUp Loc: California

My responses to your previous points are too long to fit into a single post, so I had to break it into two parts LOL. But since you're extending some courtesy toward the end of your post, I want to send you my response to that first.

I can understand your initial reaction. As I told joy, "My self-assessment here is that while I got the point across to the liberals, I failed to get it across to conservatives and I'm pretty sure it's because of my stated hostility toward Trump."

Just so you know, I've read some of your anti-Obama statements and it's not always easy to tell if your are attacking his policies or the man himself. Sometimes, the distinction gets lost in heat. Please understand that my hostility is toward the role Trump is playing in American politics... his policies AND his methods. Actually, I really have no respect for him as a person either... I've just seen too much to continue offering him the benefit of the doubt. I think he's a egomaniac who is willing to hawk our republic for personal gain, but that's just my opinion... My "attacks" are on specific polices that he is endorsing. Policies that I study because I'm not just venting, I'm looking for ways to show people what he and his allies are doing. As a president, Trump has become a symbol for all these things that are in my careful opinion, direct assaults of the welfare of the working family.


I agree, which is why I always look for the documents themselves, the bills, the laws, the orders, they are all public records and available to read. This is how I know your 20% tax savings will expire in 2025. But yes, there is a LOT of misinformation out there it's an art form.


Thank you jack. I'll try to do better too.


NOW you tell me. LOL
I don't know how you do it. I like to use my phone for phone calls, simple text messages and checking the time. Anything more complicated than that and I need a laptop.


I will be in about 2 hours from now :)

straightUp Loc: California

...and here's the long one.


No offense jack but your lemonade stand...

http://sweetfrog.com/images/uploads/graphics/store-team-member.jpg

...is a limited liability company... It's not even a corporation. You have no public offering (no shareholders).

Most of us can understand asking the government to give small businesses a break. As an owner of a limited liability company myself, I know small business is a struggle, but you have to understand the difference between a LLC and a publicly held corporation like Harley-Davidson (NYSE: HOG). The most significant issue here is Wall Street. When a company goes public, which is often necessary for operations that require more funding than can be gathered from a handful of rich friends, they open themselves up to a whole new level of politics. It's that board-level of politics that creates the problem with these tax-cuts, because the interest shifts from investing in a business to investing in a portfolio. I'm willing to bet there were managers at Harley-Davidson that wanted to invest more of that $700 million from tax savings into the business and I'm willing to bet the shareholders overruled.

Maybe it's because your company serves frozen yogurt to mall shoppers with a sweet tooth that you don't really have to think much about the mammoth corporations that my company provides engineering services for such as Verizon, Bank of America and Time-Warner. As a small business dealing with these types of corporations it's easy to see two completely different worlds. As a proprietor, when I negotiate with these big companies, I am very much a small helpless critter at the feet of giants - it can be very humbling. Obama made that distinction very clear as he and the Democrats passed measures specifically to help small business while pulling back the reins on large corporations. Republicans have been trying to blur that line because they are serving the interests of investors on Wall Street who know that small business owners are more likely to support their "pro-business" proposals if they think "business" means them.

It's great that you published your opinion in a local paper but I doubt it made the slightest difference in the decision to cut taxes. That decision was made by congressional representatives that were probably serving the interests of Wall Street investors, as indicated by the record-breaking buybacks.

Note: please don't take "lemonade stand" the wrong way... I am not trying to belittle your enterprise as a business, I'm just trying to emphasize the difference between a small business like yours and a large corporation like Harley-Davidson.


jack... That fantastic momentum started in 2010 and 2017 (the year you are praising) was the last year affected directly by Obama's policy. Also, if you really are the CEO of sweetFrog, I'm sure you know that you franchise is reported to have opened 276 stores during those Obama years. That seems pretty successful to me; was that not enough? Are you trying to take over the ice cream and candy world or are you just trying to run a business? Honestly, it's a bit dense to be trying to up-shift the economy when it's already in 5th gear.


I know, I've been there, that's why you have so many deductions. But again, you're talking about small businesses, sole proprietorships and limited liability companies... NOT corporations. And just to be clear, Trump's tax cut doesn't change the tax structure of a small business... income will still pass through to the proprietor. But yes, the 20% tax savings will be a nice boon to small business, I agree. I don't have a problem with giving small business a 20% break because it puts that money in the hands of the business. If your business is anything like mine, that money will be reinvested IN the business, which includes the workers. But in case you haven't noticed yet, my issue with this tax-cut is the CORPORATE WELFARE that many of of us see it for. Small businesses like ours are just the flotsam on the wake of much bigger ships. We appreciate the lift, but it's highly doubtful that we had anything to do with the direction of the policy, even with your op-ed. ;)

Something else that I have already mentioned and no one ever has anything to say about it... that 20% savings you're so excited for is tax on INCOME. That part of the law expires. You only get that for a few years. So plan accordingly.

In the meantime, lets talk about corporate welfare, since that's the problem I have with Trumps' idiot tax-cut.

1. Unlike lemonade stands across America, most Fortune 500 corporations are controlled by Wall Street investors.
2. Unlike the lemonade stands where the proprietor decides how to spend the savings, it's the Wall Street investors that decide how to spend the savings afforded to publicly held corporations.
3. So far, it's looking like the most significant measurable impact the tax cuts have had are on stock buybacks.
4. Unlike, regular dividends, which are taxed as income, stock buy backs give investors capital gains.
5. Unlike the tax cut on INCOME, the tax cut on CAPITAL GAINS is permanent.

Are you connecting dots yet?

I won't *say* it was intentional but if there was ever a call to mastermind a way for private investors to siphon money from the government, this would be a genius way to do it. Use business as the excuse, it's become an icon of American culture like freedom and patriotism. Small business owners will think it's all about them. So you get the political "OK" and you cut corporate tax, then you take the savings on corporate income and buyback your stocks, increasing the value per share, so not only are you taking control of money that used to go to the government but your manipulating the stock market with it and multiplying the value of that money. Then you sell for a tremendous capital gain, but wait... being the genius you made sure the tax on capital gains is cut too. In fact, to sell the bill, you agreed to make the cuts on income temporary, but you make the cuts on capital gains permanent so you can ride out the bull market before you sell.

And since Wall Street is open to anyone in the world with enough money to invest, there's no reason to assume that these investors are even American!

It's interesting that Russians are playing such a staring role in the circus around Trump because Russia has over the past 20 years undergone a privatization movement the world has never seen before. I know some of you think Russia is still a backward communist state, but the central control is only extended to energy and defense. Everything else in Russia has been privatized and as a result there is a new ruling class. We often hear journalists refer to them as oligarchs. These are billionaires that have made a fortune literally from cannibalizing the old Soviet system.

Are you connecting the dots yet?

I won't *say* that Russian oligarchs have been looking for ways to cannibalize the United States of America, but if that was ever the case and they had this genius plan in mind, I'm sure the oligarchs would start by contacting American businessmen with a weak sense of morals and the potential to affect tax policies.


I would agree that it's one of the engines...

http://www.economonitor.com/dolanecon/files/2013/09/P130925-2.png

...but again, I don't have a problem with cutting income tax on small business. I'm hoping that by this point you are understanding that we are talking about completely different stories here.


Tell that to all the yahoo's out there crediting Trump's tax cuts for the 2017 economy LOL.


...or just give it to Wall Street, which has so far been the case.


Maybe it was the first time in history that business scams weren't able to thrive as easily. It doesn't appear that legitimate businesses with sensible plans like sweetFrog had much of a problem since they opened 276 stores in that time.


You really think home construction will increase just because contractors get tax savings? The only reason why home construction would increase is if other people have money to BUY houses. It's demand that drives the economy jack. And before you come back with that circular argument that tax savings = wage increase = consumer demand increase, let me point out that this wonderful tax cut expires in 2025. That makes it kind of hard for a proprietor to pass the savings in terms of wages without the risk of making payroll too heavy to support when the taxes come back in seven years. So unless, those contractors are building homes for themselves, I don't see how this tax cut is going to fuel the economy the way you seem to think it will.

My bottom line on your perspective on the tax cuts is that I agree with most of what you are saying about small business, but I think that's also the smaller part of the picture compared to the corporate welfare that I think motivated the tax cuts. I would be the first one to support a 20% tax cut on small business income and unlike Trump, I would even push to make that permanent, but the moment you attach that to massive corporate welfare, the deal is off.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Good luck and much success with your corporation. You will join the ranks of the most hated by the leftist.
We planned to open an in patient out patient mental health agency in Northern California because of the 80+% vacancy rate, but the city, county and State do not want new businesses built brick and mortar. It would blow your mind to know what they want in permits and fees plus the dozen EPA and other agencies that want their pound of flesh, plus it's expected to be a minimum of a year and a half to get through California's tangled web before we can break ground. A hundred thousand dollars first permit and the good news is, if we can find an attorney that is plugged in with the city (highly advisable) for fifty k plus, we could shave off about six months and guarantee it won't be over two years if we do it ourselves. Hell no! We're outta here and going to where they a roll out the red carpet, Northern Idaho near Cour D' Alene. We can have permits and break ground in three to four months for a few thousand depending on which city limits we decide. It's nuts.
There are still states that the liberals haven't destroyed, or want to tax, tax, tax, permit to get a permit.

straightUp Loc: California

The naivety of your view on world history is this "good vs evil" thing you got going. You portray the U.S. as a superhero that stands in the way of the evil ambitions from Japan and China. All of the world powers are playing the same damned game, witless. Japan was trying to control the Pacific for it's resources... So were we. China is trying to influence the world to get as much from the global market as it can... So are we.


We can start with the Iran Nuclear Deal. I'm sure your mind is saturated with all the bullshit about what a bad deal it is, but the fact remains that Obama was able to rally the six most powerful countries and the EU into a deal with Iran, something no president before him has ever done (to borrow one of Trumps favorite sayings) and even the Republicans in Congress officially had to admit the deal is doing everything it was supposed to do. I can stop right there because Trump has so far not signed ANY deal with ANY country regarding ANY point of contention. He's even stated a preference for bilateral agreements, which we all know is because he doesn't have what it takes to build multilateral agreements, which is not surprising, multilateral agreements are almost non-existent in business, but they are paramount to international politics.

Trump is quite simply out of his league and I almost feel sorry for him when I look at leaders like Kim Jong Un who I think is just toying with him. I'm sure all those "evil" countries, especially Russia and China are looking at Trump as an opportunity to gain ground that neither Obama not Clinton would have surrendered.


Yes, I do and I have. But those repeating patterns that you are noticing are contained in larger patterns that have changed. Pre-WW1 military-political reality occurred at the end of the 19th century, only a few decades into the second Industrial Revolution when Imperialism was still the prevalent context. So you might find similar effects, but the causes are different.


Your laugh tells me you aren't getting it... The Republic *IS* is the government and it's people. It's called a republic because it's not controlled by a private party such as a monarchy... Instead, it's controlled by it's people through a representative democracy and in our case it's based on on a written constitution. Now I'm not saying privatization is always a bad thing but when you privatize something, you ARE effectively removing it from this structure to where it is no longer subject to the discretions of the people or the rules of the Constitution. For instance, government workers have the right to speak against their employer because the Constitution guarantees that right. But private sector jobs have no right to speak against their employer because the Constitution doesn't apply to private companies.

And before you argue this point with me, I encourage you to save us both some time and look it up first.

I already have "Trump's Attack on the Working Class Part 3 in the barrel... and it involves the forced arbitration decision that Trump is so happy about. I'll probably fire post this in the next few days when I have a little more time to handle the responses. But a peek preview... I'll be highlighting the fact that forced arbitration allows companies to violate labor laws while blocking any attempts for the workers to take the case to court. Arbitration is essentially the privatization of American justice.

Bottom line... privatization may or may not in some cases improve economic efficiency but it ALL cases without exception, it DOES remove an asset or a liability from the democratic control of the Republic and it's people.


You might have been *saying* the same thing but I've read enough dissent during the Obama years to know, that when you folks were accusing Obama of destroying the country, you weren't so much referring to the republic as much as you were to our "way-of-life" and it was always THAT vague.


No... that's correct.

straightUp Loc: California

I was going to respond to this yesterday but I decided to wait and see if you got an answer. I see now that you really didn't. So I'll just emphasize your point that we do indeed have scales of economy that beg the question, which one?

I think the plutocracy has an interest in blurring the distinction between economic classes so that "one for you and ten for me" sounds more like "eleven for all of us".

son of witless

I greatly enjoy our conversations because even though I violently disagree with every word you say, so far you have debated me honestly. Something almost none of your buddies on OPP ever bother with. I have one slight request. Both you and I are writing far too long of statements. On another topic I and another poster agreed that if the posts are too long and rambling, nobody reads them.

" The naivety of your view on world history is this "good vs evil" thing you got going. "

So in WW2 there was no moral difference between us and Imperial Japan ? So in today's World there is no difference, no moral difference between us and Red China ?

I think on both accounts you are wrong. Lets us keep this as simple as possible. When Japan was winning, how did it treat those it defeated ? When America won the War, how did it treat Japan, Germany, and Italy ?

In today's World, how does China treat the minorities it controls? How does the United States treat the minority populations it controls ?

straightUp Loc: California

Very true... in most cases, but I proof read my stuff so many times it makes up for it. LOL


As much as you want this to be simple it just isn't. Yes, there are moral differences but to find them you have to dig deeper than the national level. Otherwise, you're stereotyping because moral corruption occurs on a personal level. How one country appears to be less moral than another is often the result of key individuals in the wrong place at the wrong time. A lot of how people were treated by the Imperial Japanese was a result of decisions made by commanders and governors. Likewise, anyone can pick our specific individuals and events that make us look evil as a nation... we did after all drop atomic bombs on Japanese cities AFTER the Japanese surrendered. And if you can't let go of the fiction that we no choice about Hiroshima, then explain to me how firing nuclear warheads at the populated Bikini Atoll isn't the most immoral thing humans have ever done.

Look, any time someone tries to make a case that "my country is more moral than your country", they are cherry picking through history.

jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho

Just to keep my post straight, the Frog lemonade was a cut and paste to make a point of small business and also the reason they were able to succeed is, Mall's accross America were losing tenants not only in shoes, clothing but also Food courts from 08/09 crash . No longer the +/- a dozen food choices in mall food courts but dropped in half or lower creating a demand and anyone with vision, willing to risk had an opportunity to have prime real estate, brilliant.
We are on the cusp of opening an in- patient out-patient mental health agency and the tax cuts are not chump change, instead very meaningful.
Currently in America there is a crisis, termed as "vacancy rate", which exceeds 70% nationwide. The primary shortage is educated and trained psychologist with a minimum of a masters degree. Our model is based on duplication (Franchise) which does not exist giving us the edge in recruiting graduates. What will make our growth rapid over the next five years is the tax cuts. So I am very pro tax cuts, but as I stated in other threads, the cuts fell short in reducing the thousands of pages of tax codes or exemptions which allows the Verizon, AT&T's the ability to pay little tax by percentage. To claim the wealthy pay no tax is a lie, they pay majority of income tax collected which includes small business and pass throughs, but the largest corporations pay the least in total dollars and percentage but not all corporations . But let's separate facts because that's not factual of all large corporations paying no tax , or the very wealthy. I have yet to hear you mention crony capitalism vs capitalism. Also our very flawed tax code does make sense when some of our largest companies lose money thus receiving a tax benifit.
I noticed when reading up on this that anywhere from fifteen to twenty corporations are used as the example by journalists of not paying tax or very little tax, but this is bias reporting leading the reader to believe all our "evil" corporations pay no tax. The most honest reports claim its approximately 20% of our largest, paying little or no tax, and credit the 80% that does pay fair to high taxes.
One industry I'm up on is the auto industry and many of their hundreds of billions of dollars in losses are directly related to government regulations ( unreasonable regulations) costing manufacturing hundreds of billions in R&D racing to invent technology to match regulations I could add pages to this topic, but you get the drift there are legitimate reasons to pay little or no tax
http://247wallst.com/special-report/2014/01/08/companies-paying-the-most-taxes/

straightUp Loc: California

Oh... when you said "From where I stood, as the CEO of sweetFrog Frozen Yogurt, I was delighted that the new tax was signed into law." I was under the impression you were talking about yourself. So are you not the CEO of sweetFrog?


I dunno about "brilliant"... this is just how business works... when old companies fail, new companies take over. You don't need tax cuts to encourage business jack, you just need real entrepreneurs, the kind that can run a business in any climate. When the climate is less friendly to business, the weaker ones die off and the stronger, more innovative ones survive and often flourish. You seem to think a government can kill business but business never actually dies. For example, the government's war on drugs did everything possible to impede the cannabis business and yet in that time cannabis still became the #1 cash crop in America. I would even say that many times pro-business motions are just another way of saying let's make business easy enough for incompetence.


i'm not sure what plans for a mental health agency has to do with the tax cuts, but I agree the tax cuts are not chump change... The $178 billion transfer into the pockets of Wall Street tells us this much.


Yeah, I'm not understanding these connections you seem to be drawing up... What does vacancy rate have to do with the tax cuts and how can our model be based on something that doesn't exist? I won't comment any further in this jack because it honestly isn't making any sense to me.


Yes, it did, but you supported the bill anyway.


Well, those "largest corporations" are the who people like me are talking about when we refer to "the wealthy"... We aren't talking about small business owners, most of which are just middle class workers with nice cars and season tickets... we're talking about a group of people in the top 1% that have so much wealth that they don't even need an income. These people pay the least amount of tax because our complex tax system is based on the income they don't need and often avoid. It's quite common for billionaires to get paid $1 a year from their companies just for that reason.


That's because I don't subscribe the the suggestion that they are separate theories. Crony capitalism *IS* capitalism... the difference is just in the way people play the game. Crony capitalism is the label people give to capitalists that leverage unfair advantages in relationships with lawmakers so as to separate these forms of corruption from the idea of perfect capitalism. That makes as much sense to me as coming up with a different name for football every time someone fouls.

Still, what you call "crony capitalism" is basically how the plutocracy operates and I mention plutocracy a lot.


What if the company lost money through their own incompetence? Should the government be bailing them out for that?


I think you can relax a little bit jack... I've never assumed that the actions of 15-20 companies reflect the actions of ALL companies and I really don't think that's what mainstream liberals think either.


How do you know those are the most honest claims?


I'm sure you can go for pages on this... I could too. Blaming regulations is a weak, pathetic excuse. Regulations are applied across an entire industry... When your competitors are hit with the same regulation, you aren't disadvantaged. The ONLY reason to fight regulation is to lower standards so any yahoo can make a buck with crappy products.

son of witless

The fact is we are Americans. Sovereign nations compete with one another in their own national interests. As an American if I will not support my country against all other nations, then what moral right do I have to hide behind it's soldiers, while being fat, dum, and happy ? Compared to any other nation you wish to call up, YES we are pretty freaking Wonderful.

Here is where I pick apart your arguments, instead of just calling them and you stupid, as is always done to me by Bad Bob and his compadres.

" A lot of how people were treated by the Imperial Japanese was a result of decisions made by commanders and governors " So you are making the argument that it was not Japanese policy to mistreat POWs, and captive native populations under their control, but merely " ROGUE " Imperial Japanese officials ?

No that cannot be true. The sheer volume of reports against Imperial Japanese Military Officers for the mistreatment of American Military and British Military POWs, plus atrocities against Chinese and Filipino civilians means the Imperial Japanese Government had to be aware of and encouraged those events.

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/just-10-japanese-atrocities-from-world-war-ii.html

" we did after all drop atomic bombs on Japanese cities AFTER the Japanese surrendered."

Okay, I have bragged about how well I know history, but that one is just totally off of the freaking wall. All I can say is PROVE IT.

straightUp Loc: California

WE are... but what about the ruling class? Are they Americans too? You seem to be blissfully ignorant about the fact that money is a far greater power in America today than citizenship has ever been.


That all depends on how "nationalized" a nation is. For the past 30 years America has been trending in the opposite direction, through privatization. Where nationalization makes an interest "national", privatization make an interest "private". Private interests have no obligation to any sovereignty and anyone from anywhere in the world can own ANY privatized interest. Since Reagan, more and more of America has been privatized and sold to foreign interests...

http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/images/January15/1%20ownership%20of%20assets.png

So while I appreciate your attempt to teach me about national interests, you're way out of date. Sure, maybe 50 years ago I would have agreed more with your statement but this is 2018... You can't rely on your 1950's education to paint an accurate picture of America the 21st century.


I don't know why you would hide behind it's soldiers anyway... You can be just as fat, dumb and happy without them. Case in point: The War in Iraq. There was literally no national advantage to invading Iraq, the advantages were almost entirely the private interests of oil companies.


Why? Because we have the best TV shows?


I didn't say they were rogue... and Japanese policy is as much subjected to the decisions of a few as any order from a commander.


I'm sure they were aware of it, but I see no evidence that they encouraged it and even if they did encourage it, the key in your statement is "Imperial Japanese Government"... Not "Japan". What I'm trying to get to to see is how you're stereotyping entire nationalities. The U.S. government was just as horrible to the indigenous people of the land we took. That doesn't mean "America" is a nation of bad people, it just means we had a few bad people making government decisions at various points in our history.


I wasn't born yesterday witless... I know about what the Japanese did during WW2. My mom's uncle spent 4 years at a Japanese prison camp in Burma. I'm hoping that by now you are starting to understand what I am saying about corruption being a personal flaw not a national one. Sometimes a personal flaw can influence national policy, but that doesn't make it a reflection of the national entity. A good example would be the current U.S. policy to forcefully rip children away from their parents. That's a Trump policy that the vast majority Americans bitterly oppose, so it's unfair to characterize the American nationality according to that inhumane policy.


The Potsdam Declaration was delivered to Japan on July 26th 1945. This was the a list of terms for their surrender. At that time Japan was essentially defeated. They just didn't have anything left to fight with and what they did have they couldn't keep fueled. Meanwhile, with Germany defeated, the Russians were diverting the full force of their army to the east while the Americans were assembling in the Pacific for a November invasion. At this point the picture for Japan was hopeless and everyone knew it, including the Japanese.

There was some disagreement among the Japanese leaders on the details of their surrender according to the Potsdam Declaration and they were trying to negotiate better terms with the Russians, but the fact is Japan WAS surrendering. There was no more fighting, it was all about negotiating the terms of the Japanese surrender. We didn't drop the bomb until August 6th and then again on August 9th after which the Japanese gave up on negotiating terms. This is why in the history books you will always see the Japanese surrender being described as "unconditional". That's all the bombs did... they ended Japans plead for conditional surrender and forced the unconditional surrender that Truman was asking for. All for the low price of nuking two civilian population centers.

It's one of the more disgusting things the U.S. did that American kids don't learn about because it takes away from the righteous image we try to implant in their minds.

son of witless

I had a most brilliant though overly long reply to you and I accidentally deleted it and I must start over.

" WE are... but what about the ruling class? Are they Americans too? You seem to be blissfully ignorant about the fact that money is a far greater power in America today than citizenship has ever been. "

What is your solution ? I fail to see where our ruling class is worse than others. Money is power and has always been a problem. Why would you believe it was better back in the good old days ?

" That all depends on how "nationalized" a nation is. For the past 30 years America has been trending in the opposite direction, through privatization. Where nationalization makes an interest "national", privatization make an interest "private". Private interests have no obligation to any sovereignty and anyone from anywhere in the world can own ANY privatized interest. Since Reagan, more and more of America has been privatized and sold to foreign interests..."

While I am sure you could give examples of horror stories in privatization, to me as a general rule, the more the better. My horror story is Venezuela where Nicolás Maduro's Bolsheviks run far too much of the national industries. They only wish they had evil rich capitalist-pig-dogs running them.

" So while I appreciate your attempt to teach me about national interests, you're way out of date. Sure, maybe 50 years ago I would have agreed more with your statement but this is 2018... You can't rely on your 1950's education to paint an accurate picture of America the 21st century. "


Not the 1950s, but the late 19th century. The more things change, the more they stay the same. We are Great Britain, the old Super Power. China is Imperial Germany, the rising young tough guy with a chip on their shoulder. Russia is Russia, the faded old used to was Super Power.

" I don't know why you would hide behind it's soldiers anyway... You can be just as fat, dumb and happy without them. Case in point: The War in Iraq. There was literally no national advantage to invading Iraq, the advantages were almost entirely the private interests of oil companies. "

You are the one who needs to update your knowledge. The US oil companies did not benefit very much if at all from the Iraq War. That war was about reasserting American Power after the damage of 911. Taking out the Taliban was not enough. Another American enemy had to be made an example of so that no nation would take advantage of American weakness. Saddam was a guilty enough and dangerous enough foe to be used as an example. The problem was not anticipating the post Saddam environment.

" Why? Because we have the best TV shows? "

Maybe in the 1950s we did, not now. Compare America to 19th Century Great Britain, the Mongol Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, the Assyrian Empire, and the Babylonian Empire which in their times were the most powerful nations on earth and how they treated those they controlled and neighbored. We are the most wonderful Super Power in World History. Compared to our current peers, China and Russia, we are super duper freaking wonderful.

" I'm sure they were aware of it, but I see no evidence that they encouraged it and even if they did encourage it, the key in your statement is "Imperial Japanese Government"... Not "Japan". What I'm trying to get to to see is how you're stereotyping entire nationalities. The U.S. government was just as horrible to the indigenous people of the land we took. That doesn't mean "America" is a nation of bad people, it just means we had a few bad people making government decisions at various points in our history. "

I am speaking of WW2. The Imperial Japanese Government in WW2 was Japan. The mistreatment of captured soldiers and conquered populations was official policy. It was not just a few bad apples. America's great crime was against the American Indian . We raped, murdered, and stole their land. Are you ready to give your home back to the few descendants of the Native Americans ? That and slavery were true. In the 20th and 21st centuries I can't think of how we are so bad.

" I wasn't born yesterday witless... I know about what the Japanese did during WW2. My mom's uncle spent 4 years at a Japanese prison camp in Burma. I'm hoping that by now you are starting to understand what I am saying about corruption being a personal flaw not a national one. Sometimes a personal flaw can influence national policy, but that doesn't make it a reflection of the national entity. A good example would be the current U.S. policy to forcefully rip children away from their parents. That's a Trump policy that the vast majority Americans bitterly oppose, so it's unfair to characterize the American nationality according to that inhumane policy. "

I will try to hold my emotions in check because this whole idea of you saying " current U.S. policy to forcefully rip children away from their parents " kinda makes me see red. They are breaking the law. If children and parents are separated it is not the fault of America. THEY are not supposed to be here. They fault lies with THEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!