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Is the Death of Jesus Christ on the Cross or His Resurrection more important?
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Mar 11, 2018 12:04:03   #
bahmer
 
Zemirah wrote:
To every individual, is the death of Jesus Christ or His resurrection more important?

Jesus' dying for the sins of the world and His resurrection from the dead are equally important.

In fact, they are mutually dependent on one another. It would be impossible for Jesus to do one act without the other and still be rightfully called the Christ. Some people mistakenly think that Christ is Jesus' last name, but it is actually a title. It is a title filled with prophetic and eschatological meaning. Christ means "Messiah" or "the Anointed One" and neither term could be applied to Jesus if he ONLY died, or was ONLY resurrected. In order to be Christ, He must have done both. Looking at each act in turn will help us see why this is so.

First, if Jesus only died and was not resurrected then God's Word has failed, Jesus is a false prophet, and we are still living under God's just condemnation. Jesus predicted His own resurrection (Matthew 17:22–23). If Jesus did not rise from the dead then our faith is useless and we are still in our sins. The apostle Paul specifically addresses this issue when he is rebuking those in the city of Corinth who are claiming that there is no resurrection from the dead (for anyone).

In 1 Corinthians 15:12–19, Paul (under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit) states, "Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied."

Second, it is logically impossible to be resurrected without first dying. Obviously, no one can be resurrected from the dead without first being dead. However, if Jesus were to die (but not for our sin) and then be raised from the dead, we would not benefit at all from His resurrection. Such a resurrection would reveal His power over death, but it would not satisfy God's just wrath toward us. Since Jesus would not have suffered in our place and therefore would not have paid the penalty our sins deserve, we would have to suffer and pay the penalty ourselves (Romans 6:23).

This means we would still be condemned. So, either way you look at it, whether you remove Jesus' substitutionary atoning death on our behalf or remove His resurrection from the dead, we would remain in the same tragic state. That is, we would remain "in our sins" which means we remain under God's just condemnation, awaiting His just punishment. In other words, we would be waiting to suffer the eternal torments of hell.

Thankfully, amazingly, gracefully, this is not this case. As we continue to read 1 Corinthians 15, Paul reveals the truth of God concerning who Jesus is (i.e., the Christ). Jesus is the Savior of all who believe in Him, who trust in His sacrificial death for the forgiveness of their sin and His glorious resurrection from the dead for eternal life (1 Timothy 4:10; Ephesians 1:7; John 11:25).

Picking up where we left Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:20–22, he continues, "But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Jesus Christ died as a propitiation for our sins (appeasing God's just wrath against us for our sins and cancelling the debt (just verdict and sentence) that we owed Him for our sin (1 John 2:2; Colossians 2:14). Jesus Christ was raised from the dead to vindicate that He is who He said He is. His resurrection is proof that He is in fact the Son of God and that He is the One who the Father promised to send (Acts 13:32–36). His resurrection is also the basis for our future resurrection, for, because He was resurrected, we have His complete assurance that we can look forward with confidence to our own resurrection (Philippians 3:20–21).


http://www.compellingtruth.org
To every individual, is the death of Jesus Christ ... (show quote)


Amen and Amen

Reply
Mar 11, 2018 18:03:31   #
Radiance3
 
[quote=iFrank]
Radiance3 wrote:
====================
IFrank wrote:
“I would have to say that God’s business was fulfilled to forgive us of our sins, that’s why we can go to God ourselves and not need the blood of animals for a priest to intercede for our forgiveness of sin. “

What blood of animals are you talking about IFrank? You heard that from your pastor, or your own interpretation? Pay particular attention to Corinthians 11:26


Before Christ died for our sins, the blood of animals (Matt. 21:12), were sacrificed for our sins. There are many instances in the Bible where bulls, rams, goats and so forth. Were sacrificed. Study yourself to be shown approved, Lev. 16:34
==================== br IFrank wrote: br “I would ... (show quote)

===================
The Old Testament did use the blood of animals.

Why don't you observe how the Holy Eucharist is presented to the faithfuls. Know that facts. That is what is going on. Not based on what you read at the Leviticus.

1 Corinthians 11:26
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

What priests are you talking about using blood? We are in the New Testament. The priests don't use blood in the New Testament.

Catholics celebrating "The Holy Eucharist", is taking the "Consecrated Bread and Wine". The priest consecrates the bread and wine, symbolizing the body and blood of Christ as portrayed in His Last Supper.

Jesus broke the bread and after giving thanks, he said, "Take, eat, this is my body which will be given up for you." . Then he took the cup, give it to his disciples and said. "Drink from it, this is the New and Everlasting Covenant which will be poured out for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me."

This is what we Catholics follow based on the New Testament of Jesus Christ as Corinthian 11:26 said.

And what ever you do in your church is not for me to judge.
Good day!

Reply
Mar 11, 2018 18:36:31   #
iFrank Loc: San Antonio
 
Radiance3 wrote:
===================
The Old Testament did use the blood of animals.

Why don't you observe how the Holy Eucharist is presented to the faithfuls. Know that facts. That is what is going on. Not based on what you read at the Leviticus.

1 Corinthians 11:26
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

What priests are you talking about using blood? We are in the New Testament. The priests don't use blood in the New Testament.

Catholics celebrating "The Holy Eucharist", is taking the "Consecrated Bread and Wine". The priest consecrates the bread and wine, symbolizing the body and blood of Christ as portrayed in His Last Supper.

Jesus broke the bread and after giving thanks, he said, "Take, eat, this is my body which will be given up for you." . Then he took the cup, give it to his disciples and said. "Drink from it, this is the New and Everlasting Covenant which will be poured out for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me."

This is what we Catholics follow based on the New Testament of Jesus Christ as Corinthian 11:26 said.

And what ever you do in your church is not for me to judge.
Good day!
=================== br The Old Testament did use t... (show quote)


If you go back a reread what I wrote, was that before Jesus died on the cross, there was animal sacrifices for our sins, after Jesus was crucified, the veil was ripped from top to bottom so you could speak to God and have yours sins forgiven through Christ Jesus, and that animal sacrifices were not necessary anymore. Besides you came along saying that there were no sacrifices. I quoted you scripture, and now you’ve read and have changed your tune on saying that there were animal sacrifices in the Old Testament. It’s also in the New Testament before Jesus died. You need to get a concordance to research and to find interesting passages in Gods letter.

Reply
 
 
Mar 11, 2018 18:46:41   #
bahmer
 
Radiance3 wrote:
===================
The Old Testament did use the blood of animals.

Why don't you observe how the Holy Eucharist is presented to the faithfuls. Know that facts. That is what is going on. Not based on what you read at the Leviticus.

1 Corinthians 11:26
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

What priests are you talking about using blood? We are in the New Testament. The priests don't use blood in the New Testament.

Catholics celebrating "The Holy Eucharist", is taking the "Consecrated Bread and Wine". The priest consecrates the bread and wine, symbolizing the body and blood of Christ as portrayed in His Last Supper.

Jesus broke the bread and after giving thanks, he said, "Take, eat, this is my body which will be given up for you." . Then he took the cup, give it to his disciples and said. "Drink from it, this is the New and Everlasting Covenant which will be poured out for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me."

This is what we Catholics follow based on the New Testament of Jesus Christ as Corinthian 11:26 said.

And what ever you do in your church is not for me to judge.
Good day!
=================== br The Old Testament did use t... (show quote)


The eucharist is in the Roman Catholic church is it not? I was raised a Lutheran and have belonged to other churches over the years as well and it is and was alway called communion in those churches and not eucharist.

Reply
Mar 11, 2018 21:58:18   #
Radiance3
 
bahmer wrote:
The eucharist is in the Roman Catholic church is it not? I was raised a Lutheran and have belonged to other churches over the years as well and it is and was alway called communion in those churches and not eucharist.

===============
Some Catholics call it communion too. It does not make a difference because we are taking the body and blood of Christ in the form of the "consecrated bread and wine". After taking that we become part of Christ, and also included as children of God. It is even important to take it this Season of Lent celebrating the coming death and resurrection of God. Christ said, "do this in memory of me."

Reply
Mar 12, 2018 11:21:51   #
bahmer
 
Radiance3 wrote:
===============
Some Catholics call it communion too. It does not make a difference because we are taking the body and blood of Christ in the form of the "consecrated bread and wine". After taking that we become part of Christ, and also included as children of God. It is even important to take it this Season of Lent celebrating the coming death and resurrection of God. Christ said, "do this in memory of me."


As I recall while growing up and having many Catholic friends that the members of the church do not receive the wine as that is only taken by the priest. I also know that in some churches that are against drinking alcohol that they only serve grape juice. Lutherans and some other churches that are not as strict give wine at communion. So the catholics do not receive both the body and blood but only the body which I always thought unusual. The bible states that the Lord Jesus Christ gave both elements to the disciples and yet the Catholic church does not follow suit.

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Mar 12, 2018 18:08:52   #
Radiance3
 
[quote=bahmer]As I recall while growing up and having many Catholic friends that the members of the church do not receive the wine as that is only taken by the priest. I also know that in some churches that are against drinking alcohol that they only serve grape juice. Lutherans and some other churches that are not as strict give wine at communion. So the catholics do not receive both the body and blood but only the body which I always thought unusual. The bible states that the Lord Jesus Christ gave both elements to the disciples and yet the Catholic church does not follow
================
Bahmer, try to observe the Catholic Mass sometimes. It is very solemn. The Catholic faith takes both wine and bread. The priest consecrates both wine and bread and given to the faithfuls.

I know that very well because every Sundays, and Holy days of obligation, I serve as Extraordinary Minister in the Catholic Church to offer the bread and wine to assist the priests when there are so many members that Priests and Deacon could not handle alone. To be an Extraordinary Minister for Catholics Church, the person must have undergone series of class training on the 7 Sacraments of Holy Baptism.

During the Last Supper. Jesus took bread, gave thank, break the bread and said to His Disciples. "Take, eat, this is my body to be given up for you". Then he took the cup, gave it to His Disciples, and said, "Drink from it. This is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant to be poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins." "Do this in memory of me" Luke Matthew 26:26-27.

Lent is a good time to take the Holy Communion especially during this celebration of the death and resurrection of Christ. When Christ has risen. When we take the Holy Communion, we become part of Jesus Christ, and children of God.

Reply
 
 
Mar 12, 2018 18:15:34   #
bahmer
 
[quote=Radiance3]
bahmer wrote:
As I recall while growing up and having many Catholic friends that the members of the church do not receive the wine as that is only taken by the priest. I also know that in some churches that are against drinking alcohol that they only serve grape juice. Lutherans and some other churches that are not as strict give wine at communion. So the catholics do not receive both the body and blood but only the body which I always thought unusual. The bible states that the Lord Jesus Christ gave both elements to the disciples and yet the Catholic church does not follow
================
Try to observe the Catholic Mass sometimes. It is very solemn. The Catholic faith takes both wine and bread. The priest consecrates both wine and bread and given to the faithfuls.

I know that very well because every Sundays, and Holy day of obligations, I serve as Extraordinary Minister in the Catholic Church, to assist the priests when there are so many members that Priests and Deacon could not handle alone. To be an Extraordinary Minister for Catholics Church, the person must have undergone series of class training on the 7 Sacraments of Holy Baptism.

During the Last Supper. Jesus took bread, gave thank, break the bread and said to His Disciples. "Take, eat, this is my body to be given up for you". Then he took the cup, gave it to His Disciples, and said, "Drink from it. This is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant to be poured out for you for the forgiveness of sins." "Do this in memory of me" Luke Matthew 26:26-27.

Lent is a good time to take the Holy Communion especially during this celebration of the death and resurrection of Christ. When Christ has risen. When we take the Holy Communion, we become part of Jesus Christ, and children of God.
As I recall while growing up and having many Catho... (show quote)


The Catholic Masses that I have observed have only handed out the wafer to the congregants and the priest is the only one that drinks the wine as I remember. It has been a number of years ago I admit but that is what I remember.

Reply
Mar 12, 2018 18:17:52   #
Radiance3
 
bahmer wrote:
The Catholic Masses that I have observed have only handed out the wafer to the congregants and the priest is the only one that drinks the wine as I remember. It has been a number of years ago I admit but that is what I remember.


==============
That is okay. But the consecrated bread and wine are both offered to the faithfuls.
God bless!

Reply
Mar 12, 2018 18:18:54   #
bahmer
 
Radiance3 wrote:
==============
That is okay. But the consecrated bread and wine are both offered to the faithfuls.
God bless!


Thank you for the clarification.

Reply
Mar 16, 2018 16:12:28   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Radiance3,

The "pastoral epistles" are three books of the canonical New Testament:
the First Epistle to Timothy (1st Timothy)
the Second Epistle to Timothy (2nd Timothy),
and the Epistle to Titus.

They are from the Apostle Paul to Timothy and to Titus (sometimes with the Epistle to Philemon).

They are given the title "pastoral" because they are addressed to individuals given pastoral oversight of churches and they discuss the issues of Christian living, doctrine and leadership.

1st Timothy mainly counsels to Timothy regarding the allowable forms of worship and the organization of the church, and the responsibilities resting on its members, including "episkopoi" (translated as "bishops") and "diakonoi" ("deacons"); and exhortation to faithfulness in maintaining the truth of the gospel, amid warning of attempted future errors, presented as a prophecy of the erring teachers who would soon come, and attempt to impose their own authority over the believers in Christ.

In 2nd Timothy, Paul the Apostle) entreats Timothy to come to him, and to bring Mark with him (cf. Phil. 2:22). Anticipating that "the time of his departure was at hand" (4:6), he exhorts Timothy to exercise all diligence and steadfastness in the face of false teachings, with advice about combating them thru the teachings he has already received in the past, to be patient under persecution (1:6–15), and to faithfully discharge the duties of his office (4:1–5), from someone who would soon appear before our Holy God, who will Judge both the living in Christ and the spiritually dead.

Titus is a Christian worker in Crete, and this letter to him is traditionally divided into three chapters. It includes advice on the character and conduct required of Church leaders (chapter 1), a structure and hierarchy for Christian teaching within the church (chapter 2), and the kind of godly conduct and moral action required of Christians in response to God's grace to forgive all their sin, thru Jesus' death on the cross, and the gift of God the Holy Spirit (chapter 3).

These books say what they say. Their meaning is perfectly clear to anyone willing to read them for themselves.

1st Timothy 1:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

No where is there any mention in the New Testament of priests in Christianity, other than Jesus, our High Priest. Priests are only mentioned when looking back at the Law of Moses and the Jewish system. The only mediator now between God and man is none other than Jesus himself, our permanent High Priest for all time.

The entire emphasis of the New Testament book of Hebrews is to repudiate any further need for a priest to continually offer any sacrifices on behave of man, as they were required to do under the Old Testament system, which is what they describe in Hebrews 5:1, which you quote.

It is speaking of Jewish priests obeying the Old Testament law of animal blood sacrifice for sin, which had to be repeated over and over in the passage you have designated, at a pre-Christian time before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

The book of Hebrews (Hebrews 10:12 below) explains that Christ's Perfect Sacrifice made these continual sacrifices obsolete, for they were never again needed, nor would they ever again be accepted. That is why, on the cross, Jesus said, "it is finished."

Hebrews 10:1: The Law (of Moses) is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Hebrews 10:12
But when this Priest (Jesus Christ) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 10:14
because by a single offering He (Jesus) has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:20
by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body.

What the Bible says is what it says. It is impossible to make it say anything else, although many have tried.

In the final analysis, what anyone chooses to believe is up to them.



Radiance3 wrote:
What Is a Priest?
A priest, in effect, is a mediator who stands between God and man. He offers sacrifice to God on behalf of man and administers other worship obligations that people feel unworthy to offer personally. The nearest thing to a definition found in the Scriptures is probably Hebrews 5:1.

Hebrews 5:1
New International Version Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
What Is a Priest? br A priest, in effect, is a med... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Mar 16, 2018 19:53:55   #
Radiance3
 
Zemirah wrote:
Radiance3,

The "pastoral epistles" are three books of the canonical New Testament:
the First Epistle to Timothy (1st Timothy)
the Second Epistle to Timothy (2nd Timothy),
and the Epistle to Titus.

They are from the Apostle Paul to Timothy and to Titus (sometimes with the Epistle to Philemon).

They are given the title "pastoral" because they are addressed to individuals given pastoral oversight of churches and they discuss the issues of Christian living, doctrine and leadership.

1st Timothy mainly counsels to Timothy regarding the allowable forms of worship and the organization of the church, and the responsibilities resting on its members, including "episkopoi" (translated as "bishops") and "diakonoi" ("deacons"); and exhortation to faithfulness in maintaining the truth of the gospel, amid warning of attempted future errors, presented as a prophecy of the erring teachers who would soon come, and attempt to impose their own authority over the believers in Christ.

In 2nd Timothy, Paul the Apostle) entreats Timothy to come to him, and to bring Mark with him (cf. Phil. 2:22). Anticipating that "the time of his departure was at hand" (4:6), he exhorts Timothy to exercise all diligence and steadfastness in the face of false teachings, with advice about combating them thru the teachings he has already received in the past, to be patient under persecution (1:6–15), and to faithfully discharge the duties of his office (4:1–5), from someone who would soon appear before our Holy God, who will Judge both the living in Christ and the spiritually dead.

Titus is a Christian worker in Crete, and this letter to him is traditionally divided into three chapters. It includes advice on the character and conduct required of Church leaders (chapter 1), a structure and hierarchy for Christian teaching within the church (chapter 2), and the kind of godly conduct and moral action required of Christians in response to God's grace to forgive all their sin, thru Jesus' death on the cross, and the gift of God the Holy Spirit (chapter 3).

These books say what they say. Their meaning is perfectly clear to anyone willing to read them for themselves.

1st Timothy 1:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

No where is there any mention in the New Testament of priests in Christianity, other than Jesus, our High Priest. Priests are only mentioned when looking back at the Law of Moses and the Jewish system. The only mediator now between God and man is none other than Jesus himself, our permanent High Priest for all time.

The entire emphasis of the New Testament book of Hebrews is to repudiate any further need for a priest to continually offer any sacrifices on behave of man, as they were required to do under the Old Testament system, which is what they describe in Hebrews 5:1, which you quote.

It is speaking of Jewish priests obeying the Old Testament law of animal blood sacrifice for sin, which had to be repeated over and over in the passage you have designated, at a pre-Christian time before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

The book of Hebrews (Hebrews 10:12 below) explains that Christ's Perfect Sacrifice made these continual sacrifices obsolete, for they were never again needed, nor would they ever again be accepted. That is why, on the cross, Jesus said, "it is finished."

Hebrews 10:1: The Law (of Moses) is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Hebrews 10:12
But when this Priest (Jesus Christ) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 10:14
because by a single offering He (Jesus) has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:20
by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body.

What the Bible says is what it says. It is impossible to make it say anything else, although many have tried.

In the final analysis, what anyone chooses to believe is up to them.
Radiance3, br br The "pastoral epistles"... (show quote)

===================
Then allow God to decide who is right!

Reply
Mar 22, 2018 06:16:42   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Radiance3 wrote:
Then allow God to decide who is right!



It is Written.

God has told us, all of us, what is right, what is true, and what is expected of us.

He had His Holy (set apart) Prophets and Apostles record it. It is eternally written, it is indestructable, and it's purpose has been made clear by the God who inspired it.

The Hebrew word for holy is “qodesh” and means “apartness, set-apartness, separateness, sacredness”

In the New Testament, the Greek word for holy is “hagios” and means set apart, reverend, sacred, and worthy of veneration.”

2nd Timothy 3:16:

"All Scripture is God-breathed, given by divine inspiration, and is profitable for instruction, for conviction of sin, for correction of error and restoration to obedience, for training in righteousness learning to live in conformity to God’s will, both publicly and privately - behaving honorably with personal integrity and moral courage;"

Through His Holy Word, God has told us what is right.

It is Written.

Reply
Mar 22, 2018 07:02:44   #
Radiance3
 
Zemirah wrote:
It is Written.

God has told us, all of us, what is right, what is true, and what is expected of us.

He had His Holy (set apart) Prophets and Apostles record it. It is eternally written, it is indestructable, and it's purpose has been made clear by the God who inspired it.

The Hebrew word for holy is “qodesh” and means “apartness, set-apartness, separateness, sacredness”

In the New Testament, the Greek word for holy is “hagios” and means set apart, reverend, sacred, and worthy of veneration.”

2nd Timothy 3:16:

"All Scripture is God-breathed, given by divine inspiration, and is profitable for instruction, for conviction of sin, for correction of error and restoration to obedience, for training in righteousness learning to live in conformity to God’s will, both publicly and privately - behaving honorably with personal integrity and moral courage;"

Through His Holy Word, God has told us what is right.

It is Written.
It is Written. br br God has told us, all of us, ... (show quote)

==================
God makes that decision at the end, not you! You keep on reciting about yourself!

Reply
Mar 22, 2018 09:28:20   #
bahmer
 
Zemirah wrote:
It is Written.

God has told us, all of us, what is right, what is true, and what is expected of us.

He had His Holy (set apart) Prophets and Apostles record it. It is eternally written, it is indestructable, and it's purpose has been made clear by the God who inspired it.

The Hebrew word for holy is “qodesh” and means “apartness, set-apartness, separateness, sacredness”

In the New Testament, the Greek word for holy is “hagios” and means set apart, reverend, sacred, and worthy of veneration.”

2nd Timothy 3:16:

"All Scripture is God-breathed, given by divine inspiration, and is profitable for instruction, for conviction of sin, for correction of error and restoration to obedience, for training in righteousness learning to live in conformity to God’s will, both publicly and privately - behaving honorably with personal integrity and moral courage;"

Through His Holy Word, God has told us what is right.

It is Written.
It is Written. br br God has told us, all of us, ... (show quote)


Amen and Amen spot on.

Reply
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