Marsinah

[quote=Marsinah]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulfilas

This one always cracks me up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulfilas#/media/File:Bischof_Ulfilas_erkl%C3%A4rt_den_Goten_das_Evangelium.jpg

As you know, God gave St. Paul the almost impossible task---mission---to convert the Gentiles, and the German barbarians later, to a belief in monotheism. Paul did the best that he could, under the circumstances. The circumstances being the nature of the Germans, which nature had antecedents in the nature of Indo-Europeans, and subsequently in any man or woman of European descent.

If you know anything at all about this "nature" (as you will when I am finished), you would know that Christ's message of peace, love and forgiveness could never appeal to the forever head-butting combative Indo-Europeans.

[St. Ulfilas himself when he translated the bible into Gothic deliberately omitted the chapter on Kings as he well knew this chapter would only serve to entice the Germans into battle].

Yet Paul's message of the god-human sacrifice of Jesus (as God's Own Son) appealed to their intensely loyal, almost unquestioningly, and certainly uncompromisingly, loyal, nature. And from these barbarians, to the medieval knights of old, and even to America's fighting men (who were known all over the world as the best fighting men on earth, before feminism took over their minds, hearts and souls---remember the Alamo? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeUbEGyu6XQ), death was preferable to the disgrace of losing.

Can't you just hear those German warriors saying: "What? Love my enemies? Are you out of your freakin' mind?" These were, and are, men who would just as soon cleave your skull into two parts as reason with you. (I have my ideas on why that is so, but I'm saving it for a later time!)

And so we have Paul's insistence that "Christ died for the ungodly also" repeated over and over in his epistles. For the gentiles, the ungodly consisted of the uncircumcised, among others.

Now, it is well known that Christ's message did appeal to the women, mothers and wives, as well as slaves. St. Helena, mother of the first Roman emperor to be baptized, was a Christian. It was partly due to her influence, as well as what Constantine saw as the need for a unifying force in the Roman empire, which was in severe decay and under pressure of invasion from the Germans, that provided the impetus for his conversion, in the 4th century. Remember the legendary phrase "In hoc signo vinces"? The conversion of Constantine was informed by conquest.

The wife of Clovis I, Clotilde, was also Christian, and it was partly at her behest that he converted to Christianity, in 508 AD. But the major impetus, as it was for Constantine, was the victory of Clovis at the Battle of Tolbiac:

"Gregory of Tours records Clovis's prayer in chapter II of the History of the Franks: "O Jesus Christ, you who as Clotilde tells me are the son of the Living God, you who give succor to those who are in danger, and victory to those accorded who hope in Thee, I seek the glory of devotion with your assistance: If you give me victory over these enemies, and if I experience the miracles that the people committed to your name say they have had, I believe in you, and I will be baptized in your name. Indeed, I invoked my gods, and, as I am experiencing, they failed to help me, which makes me believe that they are endowed with no powers, that they do not come to the aid of those who serve. It's to you I cry now, I want to believe in you if only I may be saved from my opponents."

My point, obviously, is that it was not peace and love that converted the warlike German barbarians, or that was even their driving motivation.

[As an interesting side note, during the Middle Ages, the Church outlawed fighting on Sundays and Holidays. It wasn't much, but it tells you how almost constantly they (known by that time as Europeans) battled.[/quote]

If you clicked on the link that takes you to the picture of St. Ulfilas conversing with the Goths, you will note immediately that it is the German that has the helmut with the 3 foot high wings that is the obvious leader of that particular band of Goths. Can't you just hear him saying, "Yes, yes, I see. Go on."

I can't.

Marsinah

In another instance of Arabic fairness, this same Muslim cleric reminded me of the uncompromising loyalty of early Christian martyrs. This is from the biography of St. Ulfilas, who had been enslaved by the Goths, yet returned again and again to attempt to convert them:

"Ulfilas' parents were of non-Gothic Cappadocian Greek origin but had been enslaved by Goths, and Ulfilas may have been born into captivity or made captive when young. Philostorgius, to whom we are indebted for much important information about Ulfilas, was a Cappadocian. He knew that the ancestors of Ulfilas had also come from Cappadocia, a region with which the Gothic community had always maintained close ties. Ulfilas's parents were captured by plundering Goths in the village of Sadagolthina in the city district of Parnassus and were carried off to Transdanubia. This supposedly took place in 264. Raised as a Goth, he later became proficient in both Greek and Latin.---Wikipedia

The martyrdom of the early Christians has always impressed me, as well. They refused to worship the emperor, who was considered a god in the Roman Empire. One can read into this the beginning of separation of church and state.

I explained to Rodney that I won't always give credit where credit is due to those of Indo-European descent, because they usually jump right to the conclusion that they are of a superior character! (It always happened that way with my husband, who was of German and Welsh heritage.)

One grave problem for the peoples of the world today, is that one people may see in a different people only what they see in themselves. For instance, the individual of Indo-European heritage would believe that the Arab/Muslim attitude towards loyalty to another man is the same as their own: unquestioning. Yet the Arab/Muslim would owe that type of loyalty only to God/Allah, as they know that men are fallible, including even themselves. Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, at the time he succeeded the Noble Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said "I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me. And if I do wrong, set me right." No leader among the Europeans would be caught dead saying something like that. Not even me.

By the same token, the Arab/Muslim would believe that the European would be fair, like themselves, in their dealings with others.

Both sides in a conundrum of this sort, are displaying stupidity, as far as I'm concerned.

Remember, I am not a Muslim. I am not a Christian either. I distinguish between God and religion. Religion is a man-made institution that seeks to establish man's relationship with God/Allah. It is based in most part on some type of revelation: that is, guidance from above. What humans do with that guidance is up to them.