Doc110 Loc: York PA

02/28/2018 Raising of Tabitha: Proof of Purgatory (Tony Gerring)

Dave Armstrong
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2018/02/raising-tabitha-proof-purgatory-tony-gerring.html

Interesting & unique argument, made by my friend Tony Gerring in a guest post.
***

If you are a non-Catholic Christian, can you provide some insight on how you understand this story in Scripture?

In Acts 9:36-42, Peter raises the disciple Tabitha from the dead
(Acts 9:36-42).

Where did Tabitha’s soul go after she died?

Did Tabitha’s soul leave heaven and return back to earth?

What about Hebrews 9:27?
“It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.”


How do you understand this story?

In the New Testament, there are several occurrences of the dead being raised to life after Jesus’ resurrection.

In Acts 9:36-42, we read about how Peter raised Tabitha from the dead.

Note that Tabitha is specifically called a disciple of Jesus who did good works and gave alms.

In verse 37, the Bible tells us she died.

According to Protestant understanding, after her death, Tabitha’s soul must have gone directly to heaven.

Now if Tabitha had received her heavenly reward and her soul was in heaven with God.

Then God must have stripped Tabitha of her heavenly reward in order to send her soul back to a sinful, bodily existence on earth.

But how could this be?

This would violate God’s own love and justice:

“It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.”
Hebrews 9:27.

In Catholic eschatology, there exists another option –

That which is called Purgatory.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation;

But after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
(CCC 1030).

Furthermore, the “Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”
(CCC 1031)


If Tabitha was among the elect and her soul was undergoing this final purification in order.

“To achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” her earthly resurrection would not violate God’s eternal justice,

For her soul would not yet have entered into the heavenly reward promised by God.

However, if, as non-Catholic Christians assert, there is no Purgatory, then immediately after her death her soul would have entered its heavenly reward.

And, in order for Tabitha to be raised from the dead, God must have cast her soul out of heaven in order to return to a sinful, bodily existence on earth.

The problem with this explanation is that it defies everything that Christians understand about God and his love and justice.

It is simply not possible for a soul once received into heaven to leave heaven and return to a sinful, earthly existence.

This is an impossible theological difficulty for non-Catholic Christians.

However, the raising of Tabitha by Peter as recounted in the book of Acts fits perfectly within Catholic theology, maintains God’s love and justice, and still manifest’s God power over death on earth as a witness to eternal life in heaven.

This story is also one of the strongest and clearest Biblical evidences for the reality of the final purification of the elect after death and before entering heaven.

Dave: And of course Lazarus, Jairus’ daughter
(Mark 5:35-43).

And other raising’s from the dead (that Jesus implied should be not infrequent occurrences of His disciples.)
Matthew 10:8

Also confirm the same thing.

These are all instances of people having died and returned to the earth.

Quakerwidow Loc: Chestertown, MD

This is only a problem for those who do not understand what Jesus meant by "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst."

Doc110 Loc: York PA

True and the kingdom of heaven is in your heart soul and mind.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Quaker widow do the Quakers believe in purgatory or did Tabatha’s soul go to heaven and then come back to earth do you believe in the eschatology that the Catholic Church attributes in purgatory?

I’m trying not to put you on the spot but Dave Armstrong the author of this article post points out a conundrum protestant teaching.

Yes we know that the kingdom of heaven is all around us and is within us but it doesn’t explain about Tabatha so did it go to heaven and then was stripped out and return back to earth to her body?

What is the Quaker church Have to say about this conundrum?

quote=Quakerwidow]This is only a problem for those who do not understand what Jesus meant by "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst."[/quote]

Quakerwidow Loc: Chestertown, MD

[/quote]

It's only a conundrum for those who do not trust G*d. Meanwhile, what are you doing to help your neighbor?

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Quaker Widow,

The only thing you did and said.
Is to skirt around what the article and is talking about wich is the “P” word that most protestants will not address and only deflect.

And give a fallacy idiom argument Amswer as you have just done.

It can be number of fallacy statements: Red herring, strawman, non sequitor or an ad hominem.

Could a simple answer, be “I don’t know” and I’ll get back in touch with you.

But you just traveled the low road in the conversation .

By the way it’s a very good question to ask your minister.

Yes it is a conundrum ?

Quakerwidow Loc: Chestertown, MD

As a former Roman Catholic, it is actually none of our business where Tabitha was between the time she died and the time she reawoke. I happen to be in the Unprogrammed branch of the Religious Society of Friends and we are all ministers.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

As I all ready said, clearly. All you have done is to ovoid the “p” word three times now, and you cannot answer the article question.

Please don’t justify yourself and demean yourself.

But the question begs to be asked . . . Where does the soul go when it is in heaven, and Jesus and peter revive a dead body as in Tabatha Lazarus.

Would God do that to a soul in heaven ?

You seem to want to argue your Protestant faith, without knowing you Quaker faith.

Is the question that hard to answer on eschatology . . . ?

If you don’t know the answer just say I Don’t Know. It’s that simple !

Just saying.

Quakerwidow Loc: Chestertown, MD

I repeat: it is none of our business. The secret's of G*d are G*d's to know.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

My arn’t we testy this afternoon.

So now you're the newest interpator of the Bible and the word of God. Who gave you that authority ?

And how sanctimonious of you, and what else are you going to interpret in the Bible and to the OPP readers, we all want to know?

Clearly protestantism and Quakerism really don’t want to discuss purgatory.

And clearly you don’t want to discuss the “P” word either by you’re (four) avoidance responses and (four) obtuse non-answer comments.

It Dosen’t matter if you were a former catholic, in this lifetime or in a different lifetime. (A Budist joke on reincarnation) pretty funny ?

You just had very poor Catholic religious formation and upbringing . . . is all. . .


Quaker widow, please don’t waste my time anymore with your avoidance of answer to the question. If you’re serious to discuss the topic of Pergutory and about the human soul.

Well you know what to do. . . .

Saint Thomas Aquinas theological is a good start to understanding about the soul he goes into great depths of the human soul is one of the doctors of the Catholic church

Quaker Widow, Ether you want to discuss the “P” word or you don’t.

It’s that simple, all you are you doing is obfuscating and avoiding the subject of the article “Purgatory” and where the soul goes when it dies.

It’s simply amasizing that all other Christians want to know all aspects of the Bible old and New Testament and about Jesus Christ’s life and analyse every detail.

And this simple question can’t be asked, and it now is Gods mystery, because you say it’s so, due to you’re new found religious belief and interpretation?

Please give me a break. It’s avoidance on this very subject.

Good day.

Reread the article again and get back to me if you want to have a serious religious discussion ?

Other than that don’t respond to this thread any more. Thank you.

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

Tabitha also known as Dorca was a disciple full of good works and works covers a multitude of sin, so she was with God,2 Corinth. 5:8, Dorca was visiting God in heaven. A day on earth is a thousand years in heaven. On God removing Dorca’s reward, a few minutes being absent from the body is to be present with God is enough time for God to purge your sins. In Eze, our gowns made from our good works and are hung in the outer court while we go out and minister to the second fruits. Purgatory is when your sins are purged so you can stand in the presence of God, Eze 24:13 He says He will not purge your sins any more, so He can. He is Omnipotent and can find a way to purge sin as in the coal from the alter of God, Isa 6:6-7

In Mark 5:42, Tabitha was 12 years old and didn’t have sin. 12 is government completeness, in verse :25 another example of 12, also in 6:7 is the Goverment of God, so the word is pregnant and the more your friend studys the Bible the more he will learn. Instead of studying with catholic christians your friend should look for a Christian teacher that rightly divides the Word of Truth.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

Well iFrank, stand up and take a bow . . .

You said an earful, to religiously suit your needs, and have totally taken purguatory and biblibcally refrences, everything out of context. And then try to speak you’re justification of what God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit can do.

Such religious hubris . . .


You are an anomiba to who and think what God can do. How pretentious.

How sanctimonious of you. You throughout all the rules and teaching of Jesus Christ’s instructions Christianity out the door ... Is this the new biblical book of iFrank . . . ?

What a bunch of malarkey . . . You made crap up ! ! !

All you have done is given a non sequitur fallacy argument reply.

The reason why I say this, is nowhere else in the Bible other than with Elijah, Jesus Christ and Saint Peter, has a human being, whether it be a man woman or child has come back to life.

There’s where a soul returns to the body in eventually down the road they die again and then the soul returns to purgatory or to heaven depending on how much they have sinned and need refinement on the threshing floor and fire of the Lords judgement.

So please do not pretend that you know what you’re talking about “purgatory” and then you use non biblical terms such as “government completeness” ? What a joke ?

That term or phrase is not found in the Bible nor is the “government of God” found in the Bible.

So you’re making things up as you go along and you have no biblical reference to support your statement ... It’s just a bunch of manure compost. This is a complete joke . . .

And if you can’t prove it through Scripture and biblical versus, then you’re making things up as you go along. Ergo you are in error of your biblical thinking and postulation purgatory incomplete answer.

1. The Old Testament had no concept of puragatory. The Pharisee and scribes did not believe in the after life. They knew they were not worthy to enter the roof of God until their sin was removed. Both the Essenes and the sadducees did believe in afterlife.

They also believed in the terms: sheoel and geheana, or the Greek hades term for the underworld or hell.

Purgatory is only a Christian Catholic and Orthodox Church teaching for over 1986 years now.

Martin Luther in 1517 believed in purgatory for a short time, but only after 20 or 30 years then Luther taught differently, and the other reformist changed their believe in purgatory also.

Where it clearly shows purgatory in the New Testament biblical traditions, then Bible was codified 305 to 310 by Saint Lucian of Antioch, and was taught by the disciples the early church fathers and the Catholic magisterium teaching which has consistently remain the same.

Purgation look it up in the dictionary. You might find the real answer to “Purgatory”.

So why did purgatory teaching go away in the Protestant Church?

Because Martin Luther in the early church reformers had no access to the Vatican archives and/or to the apostles instruction and teachings and writings, the early church fathers teaching writing’s etc. from one generation to another.

This is the problem with the protestant churchs and reformist they didn’t do their homework and research.

So now iFrank I ask you do your research go back to the apostles, the early church fathers go back to the second and third generation teachings of Saint Ambrose, Saint Jerome, Saint Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis DeSales, this concept ant term purgatory was all taught and understood by all Christendom.

This is why the protestants Churches ministers and lay people have no concept or understanding of Purgatory. They throughout 1,500 years of chrisindom Church teaching.

Because they are: IGNORANT OF THE ORIGIONS OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS AND THEIR WRITINGS, IT’S PURE IGNORANCE . . . RELIGIOUS HUBRIS . . .

Saint Augustine’s book the city of god chapter 25, talks about the purgation of its heat burning and fire. Purgatory.

In Isaiah 4:4 he talks of cleaning by a spirit of judgment spirit of fire. Purgatory.

In Isaiah 5: 6-7 Says whoa is me I have unclean lipse The Saraphim Takes a hot coal with tongs from the alter of God, And touches his lips and says your guilt is taken away in your sin is removed. Purgatory.

This is what happens when men are in the presence of God, We will all go through a purging of in adequacy and unworthiness of being in the presence of God because of our original sins so in the earliest days of the old testament this was known.

Protestants and Catholics alike are in full agreement as to the purging of sin in the presence of God.

In Micha 7: 8-9 I will be or the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against the Lord and he will plead my cause And execute his judgment for me. Purgatory.

Then there’s Malachi 3: 2-4 He will sit as the refiner of silver and gold Till they present the right offering to the Lord. Purgatory.

In 2 Maccabees 12:39 39-42 44-45 He made atonement for the dead so that they might be delivered from there sin. Purgatory.

Matthew 5:22 Jesus said But I say to you everyone who is angry with his brother Shall be liable for judgment. Whoever says fool shall be liable for hell in the burning fires of judgment forever. Purgatory.

Matthew 5:25-26

Ifrank I have over 25 scriptural references indicating or suggesting the refrences to Purgatory.

1. My suggestion for you IFrank, is to read 2 Corinthian‘s 1-5 and not “5-8, as it speaks to being naked and not chlothed under the tent in heaven, that my friend, that’s purgatory.

2. Tabatha was dead as a door nail. Her Soul had left her body. And how you can even possibly remotely even say she was only visiting heaven.

How about Lazarus when Jesus commands Lazarus out of the tome, he had been dead for three days. Oh but his soul was only visiting heaven. You have got to be the most ignorant and dim witted simpleton person, I know knowing about scripture and the teaching of Jesus Christ.

And more-over, what kind of idiot are you to even suggest that, and even say her soul was only visiting heaven? How religiously presumptuous can you be.

What a religious moron what an religious ignoramus, as Bugs Bunny would say.

Ifrank your a Christian cartoon Character, who knows nothing and brain is full of regurgitated religious compost and regurgitates scriptural idiotic nonsense.

I’m completely dumbfounded by your scriptural lunacy, biblical ignorance and inability to even understand biblical scripture.

There’s where you’re problem is, IFrank it’s all called self biblical interpretation, taught by the protestant reformers.

In All of Christianity from the apostles who went through three years of training and instruction by Jesus Christ to understand the Bible scripture and Jesus Church teachings.

This pastoral training has continued since the beginning of Jesus‘s ministry thoughout all the apostles all the bishops, priests, Decons and lay people to this present day. This is the instruction and training is to the infallibility teaching of Jesus Christ’s on Christianity.

Only 500 years ago did this authoritarian teaching end in Protestantism.

That’s why their is 33,000 protestant Denominations and keep on dividing, that is the inherent danger of “self interpretation.”

Jesus Christ asked’s us to remain as one,” but he knew the future, that’s what Omni presence means being able to go into the past the present and the future.

Keep on thinking stupidly, the Jewish people go to the rabbis for understanding the Torah’s for religious interpretation. You don’t see jewish scholars making things up as they go along, with “self interpretation” as with Protestants denominations sects.

IFrank do you even know what original sin is? And where it originates from. Where it comes from and how it applies to Christians. And the reason for baptism ?

All protestants all Catholics should know what original sin is ?

Or is this another biblical scriptural self-interpretation by IFrank.

Children sin all the time and then they become an adult and become responsible and grow up. Some never grow up, ever. . . .

This retort reply is totally Christian disgusting, iFrank. Please go back and get some training e.g. schooling and learn what it means to be a Christian. I’m totally ashamed that you can even think and say these’s Christian errors publicly. ...

Frank I just took a test on line and scored a 189 out of 202 questions I’m right up there with catholic priests on knowledge and regards to Christian teaching.

I’ve never seen so many biblical errors and false teaching of scripture than in your retort.

Is this a joke or do you really really believe your Tripe and nonsense ....

Sin is sin, their is vernal and mortal sin I frank. Figure it out and what purgatory is.

But they don’t teach you about purgatory in your protestant denomination or sect.

Confession of sin is not even heard of in your church. That’s OKAY you can just go to God and ask for forgiveness, But Jesus Christ didn’t teach that.

John 20-23 Jesus Christ breath into the apostles and the holy spirit entered into the apostles and he said and instructed them: Who’ sin’s are forgiven are forgiven, and who sin’s that remain are remained. This is the instruction of confession-reconciliation, forgiveness and penance.

Jesus Christ spoke with authority, and conviction. Their was no ambiguity in what Jesus said or taught.

So iFrank you don’t know what you’re talking about. Ifrank and where purgatory comes from it is defined in the early church from the apostles to the early church fathers and has been passed down for generation to generation for 1986 years.

Oh but the protestant church 500 years ago throughout this teaching, of Jesus Christ and the 7 sacramental’s right out the door, that’s how ignorant many in the protestant church’s members and clergy are.

Shame on you IFrank . . .

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

Goverment completeness is the number 12. The #4 relates to earth, 5 is grace, 6 relates to the human number, 7 is spiritual perfection, 8 is regeneration, 11 is disorder, 13 is rebellion, defection, apostasy.

Word for sleep is “katheudo” and is Greek #2518 in the concordance, it means to sleep, to lie down, rest. And occurs 22 times in the Bible, but is never used for dead, or death.

I quoted Isa 6:6-7 as the coals from the alter of God that purged sin, “purgatory”. You didn’t give me credit on this but overlooked it. At the beginning of the post, you asked to provide some insight on how “I” understood this story in Scripture, so I did and got an “earful” as you eloquently put it.

Shame on me? I thought you were more understanding.

Doc110 Loc: York PA

iFrank,

What is up with all of theses idiotic #Numbers ? You are spouting . . .

This doctrine, of “government of completeness” e.g. “Government of God” cannot be found scripturally and no where is this this taught in both the Old or New Testament Bible.

If it is, show me scripturally: rember I'm Catholic so we have 73 books and Protestants only have 66 books, this only changed after 1517 AD. I also have several concordances, and this is not found these terms and numbers here also.

iFrank with your vast scholarly knowledge show me ! Where theses terms phrases an numerical refrences can be found in the Bible ? Now that’s a conundrum?
1. Book ?
2. Chapter ?
3. Verse ?

This is also not taught by Jesus Christ or the apostles, the early church fathers (ECF) or 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Christian, Saints, The Church Theologians or Church Doctors, the Popes, Bishops, or Priests. Nor can it be shown with contemporary Christian writers of today.

So what’s up with all these numbers that you are quoting ?

“It does not compute” “Illogical. . . “Illogical” . . . Will Rogers . . . Lost in Space . . . Television show.

These numbers and terms you bring up in your retort, and these terms “Government completeness” phrases or “Government of God” do relate to anything scripturally or can be found in the Bible.

These are man made terms . . . And are Biblical and scriptural nonsense . . . You speak of.

Oh, we now have a Biblical scholar, and a Biblical nitpicker ? On the OPP forum. Wow this is astonishing. So we’re going into semantics of words, On Death e.g. Sleep. . . Now, that’s simply incredible. And biblical narcissism.

Well try this biblical logic fallacy-Idioms e.g. non-sequitur, red-herrings, straw-man ad-homonym arguments terms that you violated in your retort.

Let’s just change the name from tabatha to Lazarus. And see how how your logic and sleep and “just visiting” rhetoric holds up under the magnifying glass ?

Apply the same logic from the story of Tabatha who did die. Word semantics e.g. sleep.

Apply this same logic to the story of Lazrus, who we know died, because he was in the tomb, the grave for three days. Lazarus was adorn with burial oil’s, burial cloth and burial shroud as custom to Jewish burial practices.

So where was Lazarus soul, was it in heaven was it in purgatory ?

Or was Lazarus just sleeping? And or or visiting heaven ?

You see iFrank your logic and word semantics does not hold up to the biblical and scriptural semantics scrutiny test narrative.

The conundrum the Razing of Lazarus. Proof of Purgatory ! ! ! All we did was to change the persons name that died.

Lazarus’s name is synonymous with the name of tabatha. We are talking of Saint Peter Raising up of Tabatha and not the Tabatha (Dora) the child that Jesus Christ raised up from the dead. And the rhetoric word semantics of sleep and religious hypocritical notion that she was only visiting heaven.

IFrank you just keep on falling all over you’re self and regurgitated with this incriminating compost manure and religious beliefs notions. This is a false religious doctrine that Protestant illogical design as biblical self interpretations.

This is astounding, the mis-truths continue to abound in ever more in complexity. And shows that you are completely ignorant and or open to learning biblical and scriptural verses.

So why did Jesus Christ weep when he knew Lazarus was dead. When Martha and Mary were both crying because they knew Lazarus had died and had Jesus arrived sooner he would not have died.

Remember All the biblical dead people had risen from the grave.

These were all miracles life over death. These are the Jesus Christ’s teach-able moments, as to where the human soul travels upon death, which is clinically six to eight minutes when the heart and lungs stop working. Then their is brain death.

The soul then leaves to three destinations.

Hell, hades, Gehenna, Sheol, e.g. the underworld, this is where judgement has been invoked and has passed on to souls in hell by God. The only two other options are Purgatory and or Heaven.

So we have a glimps of purgatory and heaven. 2 corinthian‘s 5:1-5 We are as Paul speaks to us of “purgatory” as being under the mantle of heaven but we are naked and not clothed or are not able to enter into heaven until fully clothes and the removal and the taint of sin.

If this is not “Purgatory” than which is explained by Paul ? Give me your explanation of these biblical scriptural passage by Saint Paul ? I gladly await how you’re going to explain and deviate from the term purgatory and/or heaven.

iFrank, Then you are in total denial and and understanding of scripture and what the Bible teaches, this is what is called an apostasy and incorrect teaching as Gnostic or other heretical beliefs.

I strongly urge you to re-read this passage in the New Testament that Saint Paul teaching is telling all Christians believers in 2 Corinthians 5:1-5. This is what “Purgatory” is.

Now we return to the basic question and the article posted on the religious and spiritual section on the OPP Forum.

IFrank you can dance around word semantics in Greek, Jewish, Aramic and the Septuagint Bible and the Latin bible words, all you want, as to the subject of sleep, death etc. and “Purgatory”.

But dead I’d dead, I Frank. And you ask for more understanding? What religious Hypocrisy and utter scriptural nonsense.

What other scriptural narrative can you come up with next . No, this is pure animal compost that you are spewing, and with this non-biblical narrative and non-biblical rhetoric mantra of yours.

And now you want credit for Isaiah for 6:6-7 Isaiah was in heaven but yet his sin and guilt still remained. This is what purgatory is. Your soul is on the threshing floor where the wheat is separated from the chaff, that means your sins are burnt away and nothing remains but the soul that is refined and clean, then only a soul is able to enter heaven and be with God without sin.

iFrank all you did was to quote “scripture”, in Isaiah 6:6-7 you gave no explanation of how the seraphim took the burning coal from the altar and touched Isaiah‘s lips and tongue and removed all guilt and Sin. So if Isaiah’s soul is in heaven and his sin and guilt remain is he in purgatory because without the removal of sin and guilt you cannot be in the presence of God in heaven ?

Hummmmm, now that’s what I call a conundrum ?

Yes shame on you, For not understanding scripture biblical verses in with the term purgatory means and his explained continually by myself here on this thread.

Biblical and scriptural ignorance is bliss, think on that one iFrank.

But here’s the problem you’re a continual repeat religious offender, . . . there is my compassion for you.

Religious Ignorance is bliss !!!

Doc110


[quote=iFrank

Goverment completeness is the number 12.

The #4 relates to earth,

5 is grace,

6 relates to the human number,

7 is spiritual perfection,

8 is regeneration,

11 is disorder,

13 is rebellion, defection, apostasy.

Word for sleep is “katheudo” and is Greek #2518 in the concordance, it means to sleep, to lie down, rest.

And occurs 22 times in the Bible, but is never used for dead, or death.

I quoted Isa 6:6-7 as the coals from the alter of God that purged sin, “purgatory”.

You didn’t give me credit on this but overlooked it.

At the beginning of the post, you asked to provide some insight on how “I” understood this story in Scripture, so I did and got an “earful” as you eloquently put it.

Shame on me?

I thought you were more understanding.

[/quote]

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

It’s ok, go back to your ranting. Your the one with all the answers so on that, we agree to disagree but I’ll leave you this link on Scripture numbers.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/number01.htm