Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Who told you that?

A business must anticipate all costs before they price their product. That includes all taxes. This is done before manufacturing begins.

PeterS

Really? Lost a third you say. Did you know that US factories produce twice as much today as they did in 1984? And while China is the largest manufacturer in the world the US, at number two, out strips the next three producers combined. As for building to do. What corporate America is building is productivity and while we are already the most productive country in the world look for all that repatriated capital to go into increasing productivity further still, primarily in automation, and what they aren't planning on doing is hiring more workers, except to run the robots of course, and that's the type of infrastructure they are looking to create.

Oh, and don't listen to government statistics? Since they are the only ones who put out any credible statistics that makes it convenient for you argument doesn't it? So who are we suppose to listen to, Trump? The man lies faster than the facts checkers can check up on him.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-manufacturing-dead-output-has-doubled-in-three-decades-2016-03-28

PeterS

Who told me? Well it started with 6 years in college and 33 years in business. Suppose you and I are competitors, each making widgets, and because of your anticipation of taxes you price your widgets 10% higher than I do, who's going to have the competitive advantage right off the bat me or you? Because of your fear of taxation you've lost before you've even opened your doors.

Taxes on profit are just that. If you try to force your customers to pay them you aren't going to have any profits to pay taxes on...

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

You were in a business where you didn't pass additional costs down to the consumer?

Your business must have been on Utopia.

In the real world, all costs are passed to the consumer.

PeterS

Dave, you are talking about something you have no experience in. The real world is competitive. That's what happens when you have a free market. What you are saying is that you are passing through a tax that appears no where on your balance sheet because it isn't deductible and I'm telling you that if you do that someone will come in, undercut you, and drive you out of business. If you don't believe me--set up shop and see how long you last!

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

I've worked in, managed, and run businesses for over 35 years and never once did a huge taxation on my company fail to harm my business or get passed on to the buyer..

Your alleged business experience where costs are not passed down to the consumer, and increased taxation on your company wasn't harmful only exists in a totalitarian state that does not allow private business ownership.

You talk a lot, but you don't know much.

Louie27 Loc: Peoria, AZ

You are right on the point of trying to cover ones tax's by raising the price of their product. I hope Dave did not mean that, in the same way you have taken his comment. Any reasonable person that has owned or operated a business knows that it is better to pay tax's on actual profits than to try to incorporate the tax's in their sale prices.

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Nobody runs a company without anticipating the cost of running the business. Taxes are a cost of doing business.

Anyone that tells you their business model did not account for taxes is either stupid or lying or both.

Louie27 Loc: Peoria, AZ

Isn't that the same thing as figuring a profit margin for each job to makeup for the expense of new equipment and other intangibles. If doing business with individuals one must add tax's for city and state. One must also add other tax's such as SS and Medicare. No construction company I know of, ever added federal tax's into a bid. Here in Arizona there are too many that will bid low just to get the business and then hope for extra's to pile on the owner. In that type of environment one has to bid close to the chest and hope for the best.

Super Dave Loc: Realville, USA

Risk a few $Million on a bid without knowing what the costs are, and hope for the best? Not smart...

Smart investors don't risk capitol on projects that don't have a reasonable chance of a rate of return that justifies the investment. Smart investors figure the profit margin after taxes before taking that risk. Investors often have to borrow money to make the investment, or use their investments as collateral.

Question... If you make $50,000.00 working, why would you sell/mortgage your house and invest the money if you weren't reasonably sure you would make the same salary and be able to pay off your mortgage?

CounterRevolutionary

PeterS, just before my retirement, I lived in a large city with senior citizens picking through the garbage cans along the train stations looking for food. Every now an then, I'd buy a couple a roasted chicken at the local market for their dinner. One could not go out after dark for fear of robbery.

Then I retired on a fixed income and had to reinvent my lifestyle, first moving out of the state, and then making sure I had a roof over my head and could still pay my way.

The poverty is worse today, with 1,500 homeless people seeking food and shelter every night in our small town out in the country. These destitute camp out under the bridges and attend soup kitchens run by the churches. We all do our part to help our neighbors, little things count. I blame all of this misery on President Obama and the Democrat Party's policies of redistributing the poverty, destruction of industry and jobs, flooding our nation with more communist illegal immigrants and gangbangers, and then, to make things worse, their sabotaging of our healthcare system in hopes or reducing us to the level of another banana republic in hopes of forcing us into the North American Union.

The enemy is within. The Democrat Party needs to be banished from the kingdom. These socialists need to be booted right out of our nation. Let them go to Cuba or Venezuela in an equal exchange for freedom-loving capitalists who want to become US citizens. Thank God we have Donald Trump for President because he is a builder, not a destroyer.

PeterS

Dave I'm not lying nor stupid and I've never set up a business model where I incorporated income taxes as part of the cost of doing business--those are always paid for by the owners, partners, or shareholders through reduced dividends. The only expenses in a business model are those that can be deducted and you can't deduct income taxes as part of the cost of doing business. The only taxes a business can deduct are property taxes, the employer portion of payroll taxes, and any unemployment taxes. Those are the taxes that are applied to the cost of goods sold all the rest are passed through to the owners or, as I said, shareholders in reduced dividends.

Once again Dave you are talking about something that you have no understanding of. The reason a business wants to pay as low as possible in income taxes is the same reason you want to pay as low as possible in income taxes--they want to put as much money in their pockets as possible!!! Now will they hire new employees or create new divisions? If and only if they think the demand is there to support those new employees and divisions. Is it? Well that depends on discretionary spending for consumers and unfortunately this tax cut is targeted at the top 10% of the population and there just isn't much pent up demand there so the bulk of this tax cut will go into savings not new consumer spending.

PeterS

Did you know that the Dallas metroplex which has a population of over 7.1 million people and they recently did a count of homeless in the entire Dallas and Collin Counties and on the day of the count, 3,904 homeless individuals were identified. Of those, 739 were unsheltered. Among the 304 veterans identified, 54 were unsheltered. Other subpopulations include 1,177 individuals in families and 713 unaccompanied youth under the age of 18. African Americans made up 55 percent of those identified, and Whites accounted for 43 percent. In addition, males far outnumbered females, at 78 versus 21 percent; 1 percent were transgender.

Now as bad as that is, I want to point out that the number without a roof over their heads was only 739 so you are saying that in your little country town you have a population of 1,500 homeless and I presume without a roof over their heads? Well, sorry CR I call bullshit because few homeless people will stay in an area without the provisions to care for them--soup kitchens, shelters, and such. Large cities such as Dallas have those provisions. A small country town simply lacks the resources. And do you have any idea the number of Churches you would need to care for 1,500 people each and every day? The small little country town my wife comes from has 2 churches with under a hundred members each. How many churches does your small little country town have and just how is it possible they can feed 1,500 people a day?

If you are going to spread a load of bullshit at least make it believable. So blame whoever you want for your imaginary population of homeless around your small little country town. I'm one of those that lives in the real world--not a conservatives paranoid imagination...

Statistics taken from page 7 of the following PDF

http://dallascityhall.com/government/citymayor/PublishingImages/pages/Homeless-Commission/WORKING%20DRAFT%20-%20Final%20Report%20Dallas%20Commission%20on%20Homelessness%20101416%20%282%29.pdf

PeterS

Well if this is a business you would participate in and you want a minimum of 50,000 annual return then you would want a business that grossed 500,000 and could pay at least 10% as your salary. So take your 50K--I would recommend you take it as part of your salary and not all from profits, that way you can deduct it from expenses--and the remainder of the profits will be passed through to you where you will pay taxes on them. Now if you don't think you can gross 500K then you have to be certain that you can take a higher percentage and not threaten the stability of the company. If not, then you don't want to invest in that type of business.

So do you grasp any of this Dave? What's important is how much your business can gross, and less how much it can net. Now, when all is said and done if your business makes 20K before tax profit then you are going to pay taxes on your salary and your profit, understand? So tell me. When pricing your product or your service how are you going to include your taxes in the cost of what you produce?

Please explain, so all of us dummies can understand...

PeterS

Well you are exactly right Louie but I doubt you are going to convince Dave of that. I don't think he understands what a free market is--someone will always try to underbid you. I always try to anticipate what my income taxes will be but those will depend on my profits--which will be zero if I sit there and throw an estimation of income taxes into each bid...