Do Catholics Worship Mary? No. So Why Do Protestant's Get It Wrong? The Realm of Worship and Sacrifice: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia.
Oct 16, 2017 02:20:50 #
04/12/2012 Do Catholics Worship Mary ?
Fr. Dwight Longenecker
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html
Our Lady Queen of Angels:
When you go into a Catholic Church and you see a big, splendid statue of Mary with flowers in front of it.
A bank of candles lit before it and an old woman kneeling down, fervently praying her rosary it would seem to be what it looks like:
The woman is worshipping a statue of Mary.
But if you ask the old woman if she is worshipping Mary she’d say.
“What-are-ya-talking-about?, I’m praying the rosary.”
So what is going on? First we have to define the word “Worship”.
From time immemorial worship was identified, with a particular action:
The action of sacrifice:
a. Pagans worshipped their gods by making sacrifices to them.
b. The Jews worshipped by making sacrifice to Jahweh.
c. The reason we moderns get confused about worship is that we’ve forgotten the principle of sacrifice so we don’t really know what worship is all about.
This is understandable from Protestants because they got worried about the sacrifice thing 500 years ago and threw it out.
What is most depressing is that most Catholics also don’t understand the “sacrifice is worship” idea either.
They’ve been told the Mass is all about “the family of God gathering around the table of fellowship to increase their mutual self esteem and discuss peace and justice issues.”
Because of this nonsense the majority of American Catholics don’t have a clue what the sacrifice business is all about.
And therefore they don’t know what worship is supposed to be about either.
Like the neo-Prots that they are they have come to think that worship is all about hearing a sermon, singing some songs and praying.
Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary.
a. They think worship and prayer are the same thing.
b. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Well, the Catholic faith has been around for a long time, and believe it or not, these questions have been asked before, and the Catholics have the answer. It goes like this:
There are three categories of respect due in the realm of worship.
They go by specific Latin names:
a. Latria,
b. Dulia and
c. Hyperdulia.
a. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God.
This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass.
A Living Sacrifice
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
b. Dulia is not worship. It is honor.
We honor anyone who is eminent and accomplished.
We honor them for their brains, their discipline, their wit, their achievement.
We honor our parents and grandparents because we owe them that.
We honor our loved ones. Part of this honor is that we ask them for things.
We come to them with our needs. We look up to them. We respect them.
They are our role models and mentors.
We have a relationship to them of subservient honor.
They are awesome to us.
Dulia is also what we give to the saints and angels.
We give them the honor that is due to them.
As part of this we have a relationship with them.
We ask them for things. This is called “praying to the saints.”
c. Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary.
We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation.
She is higher than the cherubim and seraphim.
She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her.
She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.
The honor we give her, therefore, and the dulia we give her is higher than any other being.
But it is not latria.
We’re clear about that. We do not worship Mary.
The sign of this is that we do not make sacrifice to her.
You don’t find any Catholic priest offering a Mass to Mary. No.
The sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God the Almighty Father.
This also should be understood clearly: the dulia and hyperdulia which we give to Mary and the saints is ultimately honor given to God.
We honor the saints (including the Blessed Mother) not for who they are, but for who God made them to be.
We honor in them the completed work of grace.
We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God.
The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!”
We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them.
As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ.
Without him they are nothing.
With him they have become divinized–sons and daughters of the Almighty Father.
Finally, we insist that it is proper devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary which corrects all the other errors.
Do you think it is a coincidence that as neo-Protestantism has grown in the Catholic Church that Marian devotion has been marginalized, limited sometimes even banned or prohibited?
When Marian devotion plays its proper part in the life of the Church we also start to realize what real worship is, and how important the sacrifice of the Mass is to everything else.
This is why, despite misunderstandings we come back time and again to thank God for Mary and to honor her as the greatest of all created beings.
Fr. Dwight Longenecker
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html
Our Lady Queen of Angels:
When you go into a Catholic Church and you see a big, splendid statue of Mary with flowers in front of it.
A bank of candles lit before it and an old woman kneeling down, fervently praying her rosary it would seem to be what it looks like:
The woman is worshipping a statue of Mary.
But if you ask the old woman if she is worshipping Mary she’d say.
“What-are-ya-talking-about?, I’m praying the rosary.”
So what is going on? First we have to define the word “Worship”.
From time immemorial worship was identified, with a particular action:
The action of sacrifice:
a. Pagans worshipped their gods by making sacrifices to them.
b. The Jews worshipped by making sacrifice to Jahweh.
c. The reason we moderns get confused about worship is that we’ve forgotten the principle of sacrifice so we don’t really know what worship is all about.
This is understandable from Protestants because they got worried about the sacrifice thing 500 years ago and threw it out.
What is most depressing is that most Catholics also don’t understand the “sacrifice is worship” idea either.
They’ve been told the Mass is all about “the family of God gathering around the table of fellowship to increase their mutual self esteem and discuss peace and justice issues.”
Because of this nonsense the majority of American Catholics don’t have a clue what the sacrifice business is all about.
And therefore they don’t know what worship is supposed to be about either.
Like the neo-Prots that they are they have come to think that worship is all about hearing a sermon, singing some songs and praying.
Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary.
a. They think worship and prayer are the same thing.
b. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Well, the Catholic faith has been around for a long time, and believe it or not, these questions have been asked before, and the Catholics have the answer. It goes like this:
There are three categories of respect due in the realm of worship.
They go by specific Latin names:
a. Latria,
b. Dulia and
c. Hyperdulia.
a. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God.
This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass.
A Living Sacrifice
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
b. Dulia is not worship. It is honor.
We honor anyone who is eminent and accomplished.
We honor them for their brains, their discipline, their wit, their achievement.
We honor our parents and grandparents because we owe them that.
We honor our loved ones. Part of this honor is that we ask them for things.
We come to them with our needs. We look up to them. We respect them.
They are our role models and mentors.
We have a relationship to them of subservient honor.
They are awesome to us.
Dulia is also what we give to the saints and angels.
We give them the honor that is due to them.
As part of this we have a relationship with them.
We ask them for things. This is called “praying to the saints.”
c. Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary.
We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation.
She is higher than the cherubim and seraphim.
She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her.
She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.
The honor we give her, therefore, and the dulia we give her is higher than any other being.
But it is not latria.
We’re clear about that. We do not worship Mary.
The sign of this is that we do not make sacrifice to her.
You don’t find any Catholic priest offering a Mass to Mary. No.
The sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God the Almighty Father.
This also should be understood clearly: the dulia and hyperdulia which we give to Mary and the saints is ultimately honor given to God.
We honor the saints (including the Blessed Mother) not for who they are, but for who God made them to be.
We honor in them the completed work of grace.
We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God.
The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!”
We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them.
As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ.
Without him they are nothing.
With him they have become divinized–sons and daughters of the Almighty Father.
Finally, we insist that it is proper devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary which corrects all the other errors.
Do you think it is a coincidence that as neo-Protestantism has grown in the Catholic Church that Marian devotion has been marginalized, limited sometimes even banned or prohibited?
When Marian devotion plays its proper part in the life of the Church we also start to realize what real worship is, and how important the sacrifice of the Mass is to everything else.
This is why, despite misunderstandings we come back time and again to thank God for Mary and to honor her as the greatest of all created beings.
Oct 16, 2017 05:46:01 #
Latria..., hyperdulia..., dulia..., unbiblical..., unholy..., unscriptural!
The false dichotomy the RCC has created in the invented use of these words is merely an excuse to say one is not worshiping Mary when indeed that is exactly what is taking place.
The unrestrained praise and effusive sentimentalism toward Mary that is prevalent in Roman Catholicism is never found in the Bible.
As for sacrifice, Jesus was a sacrifice because human beings sin continually against God's holiness. Sin must be and is punished by a righteous God. There is no exception to this rule. Anyone with unforgiven, unatoned sin in his life faces the horrifying prospect of eternal separation from God. No forgiveness could exist unless someone capable of forgiving our sins once for all time, paid the penalty by shedding his blood, for the wages of sin is death, and the debt must be paid. Hebrews 9:22 says, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human lifeblood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).
Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:
His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10; 5:8-9).
His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9).
God's call on Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6; 7:1-22).
His presence at God's right hand as our eternal mediator, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3; 8:1-2)
His superiority to animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself once for all, not repeatedly into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).
Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could extend back to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was slain as the perfect eternal sacrifice for sin.
Because Jesus was a perfect sacrifice - God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."
Jesus was a perfect sacrifice, and God honored Him alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice eliminated the temple's relevance.
That's also why we need neither trust our righteousness, nor fear our sins. Christ's resurrection guaranteed our emancipation from sin while it assured us of His grace. Since His sacrifice was all sufficient, there is nothing we can do to deserve it, and His resurrection verified His sacrifice's sufficiency,
Mary was honored by God, but she was never said to be co-redeemer with Jesus, nor did she remain a virgin after Jesus' birth. She gave birth to Jesus' half-sisters and half-brothers, as a natural wife to Joseph.
She was a vessel used by God at a certain time in history in a certain way. God could have used any one of a number of virgins as long as they were a direct descendant of King David, as Mary was.
He used Mary. Why? You can ask him when you get to heaven.
Christ was fully God and fully man - always. He never gave up his divinity, not even when in Mary's womb.
The Roman Catholic Institution venerates (worships) Mary just as the Hindus venerate their idols; they worship them. Veneration and worship are the same. As stated previously, you create a dichotomy between the two words to make the excuse that you don't worship Mary, when in fact you do.
Veneration is not simple respect; it is worship. All worship belongs to God alone. You worship Mary, and that is called idolatry.
“By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.”
Such is the superlative praise and veneration that Catholic teaching gives to their Mary. The whole cycle of feasts of the Catholic Church is permeated with her festivals throughout each year. Pope John Paul II dedicated himself and his Pontificate to Mary. His personal motto was,
“Totus Tuus,” for “Totus Tuus sum Maria,” meaning in English “I am all yours Mary.” On October 8th, 2000, before the image of the Virgin of Fátima, he consecrated the world and the new millennium to “Mary Most Holy.” She is prominent in all the Pope’s teachings and centerpiece to the lives of millions of Catholics.
Mary provided nothing, but a womb as a temporary residence for the incarnate Son of God as He developed a human body. Physically, she is now a dead woman, awaiting the rapture at which time as a grateful redeemed sinner, she and millions of other dead saints will receive their resurrection body. That is all.
Revelation 22:8:
"And I am John, the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”…
The false dichotomy the RCC has created in the invented use of these words is merely an excuse to say one is not worshiping Mary when indeed that is exactly what is taking place.
The unrestrained praise and effusive sentimentalism toward Mary that is prevalent in Roman Catholicism is never found in the Bible.
As for sacrifice, Jesus was a sacrifice because human beings sin continually against God's holiness. Sin must be and is punished by a righteous God. There is no exception to this rule. Anyone with unforgiven, unatoned sin in his life faces the horrifying prospect of eternal separation from God. No forgiveness could exist unless someone capable of forgiving our sins once for all time, paid the penalty by shedding his blood, for the wages of sin is death, and the debt must be paid. Hebrews 9:22 says, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human lifeblood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).
Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:
His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10; 5:8-9).
His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9).
God's call on Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6; 7:1-22).
His presence at God's right hand as our eternal mediator, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3; 8:1-2)
His superiority to animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself once for all, not repeatedly into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).
Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could extend back to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was slain as the perfect eternal sacrifice for sin.
Because Jesus was a perfect sacrifice - God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."
Jesus was a perfect sacrifice, and God honored Him alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice eliminated the temple's relevance.
That's also why we need neither trust our righteousness, nor fear our sins. Christ's resurrection guaranteed our emancipation from sin while it assured us of His grace. Since His sacrifice was all sufficient, there is nothing we can do to deserve it, and His resurrection verified His sacrifice's sufficiency,
Mary was honored by God, but she was never said to be co-redeemer with Jesus, nor did she remain a virgin after Jesus' birth. She gave birth to Jesus' half-sisters and half-brothers, as a natural wife to Joseph.
She was a vessel used by God at a certain time in history in a certain way. God could have used any one of a number of virgins as long as they were a direct descendant of King David, as Mary was.
He used Mary. Why? You can ask him when you get to heaven.
Christ was fully God and fully man - always. He never gave up his divinity, not even when in Mary's womb.
The Roman Catholic Institution venerates (worships) Mary just as the Hindus venerate their idols; they worship them. Veneration and worship are the same. As stated previously, you create a dichotomy between the two words to make the excuse that you don't worship Mary, when in fact you do.
Veneration is not simple respect; it is worship. All worship belongs to God alone. You worship Mary, and that is called idolatry.
“By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.”
Such is the superlative praise and veneration that Catholic teaching gives to their Mary. The whole cycle of feasts of the Catholic Church is permeated with her festivals throughout each year. Pope John Paul II dedicated himself and his Pontificate to Mary. His personal motto was,
“Totus Tuus,” for “Totus Tuus sum Maria,” meaning in English “I am all yours Mary.” On October 8th, 2000, before the image of the Virgin of Fátima, he consecrated the world and the new millennium to “Mary Most Holy.” She is prominent in all the Pope’s teachings and centerpiece to the lives of millions of Catholics.
Mary provided nothing, but a womb as a temporary residence for the incarnate Son of God as He developed a human body. Physically, she is now a dead woman, awaiting the rapture at which time as a grateful redeemed sinner, she and millions of other dead saints will receive their resurrection body. That is all.
Revelation 22:8:
"And I am John, the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”…
Doc110 wrote:
04/12/2012 Do Catholics Worship Mary ? br br Fr. ... (show quote)
Oct 16, 2017 12:47:13 #
1016/2017 This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . . (part 1)
Zemirah,
Peace be with thee. . . .
I didn't expected, such a long boastful winded anti-Catholic response. This is not shocking or upsetting to me . . .
But my question to you again ? "So Why Do Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . .
There will be no answer that will suffice your 500 year Reformation, spiteful heart, soul and mind. But i’m still going to give the old college try, cliché.
Sadly, "God" has closed. . . . your mind, . . . your heart, . . . and your soul, . . . for learning, knowledge and having a moment of religious discernment, in the "The Realm of Worship and Sacrifice: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia."
These latin words are used to help you in your anti-Mary religious un-belief's . . .
These words are to clarify “Worship, Sacrifice, Adoration, Veneration, and Devotion. If you look them up, they all have similar meanings, but the difference from a Catholic point of view vs. Evangelical Protestant point of view, e.eg. “Word and phrase semantics” and your anti-catholic religious portrayal and false dichotomy of these useful religious teaching words in our english-latin word vernacular.
My unadulterated religious and secular response to you is, you have pure religious Evangelical Protestant, . . . Hubris. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
Your Ignorance of the bible and the “Gospel’s of Jesus's words and commandment’s and the Apostolic Church writings and teaching’s is religious blissfulness . . . who follow's Christ's . . . Teachings, words and His spiritual faith of Salvation.
Guess that you did not, I repeat once again, Did not read Fr. Dwight Longenecker Response. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html
Protestant's Get It Wrong Again ? In the understanding realm of Worship and Sacrifice: And the latin words "Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia.
Fr. Dwight Longenecker, a former Evangelical Anglican Protestant, a convert to Catholicism brought up and raised on Sola Scriptura and the tenants of the Protestant "Five Sola's." And has religious educational pedigree, and yet still converted to Catholicism.
To this day, even 500 years after the Reformation, the largest two Protestant Churches e.g. Lutheranism and The Church of England-Anglican Church still prays the Rosary and to hold Mary, the Mother Of God, in deep respect, to revere to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
Why haven't you attacked these Protestant churches as well as the Orthodox churches ? Isn't that religious hypocritical truth's, and empty religious rhetoric ?
1. In Fr. Longenecker words, "Protestants are confused about worship, we’ve forgotten the principle of sacrifice, . . . and 500 years ago, threw religious sacrifice out."
2. Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary.
a. They think worship and prayer are the same thing.
b. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Zemirah, I'm not your average Catholic, I pray, I worship the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, believe in the the Holy Sacrement s and believe in the Catholic (Universal) Nicaea'n Creed. https://wn.com/nicaean_creed.
That Jesus Christ is my Savior, that my salvation comes through him. My faith, and understanding is through the infallible Catholic Biblical teaching authority the magisterium. Which has not changed from Jesus, his Apostle's for almost 2000 years.
I know the definition of the word meanings Venerate, Worship and know what Idolatry is.
Here is an example and what I mean by phrase and word semantics.
a. Martin Luther; The First Commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.Therefore no man should presume to take or give anything except as God has commanded.
My answers to you will use these symbols > > > beginning < < < And end, of my responses to your 6 questions.
[quote=Zemirah, > > > Look up the words: Latria..., hyperdulia..., dulia..., < < < unbiblical..., unholy..., unscriptural! > > > This false dichotomy thinking is pure Evangelical Protestant nonsense semantics and is totally fallacious. < < <
1. The false dichotomy the RCC has created in the invented use of these words is merely an excuse to say one is not worshiping Mary when indeed that is exactly what is taking place.
> > > Zemirah, This is a fallacy argument idiom: False Dichotomy, or the cutting into two or division, involved in a contradiction, thought to be incorrect. Below is your fallacy argument idiom.
a. "Straw-Man", a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument:
b. "Red-Herring", something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.
c. "Ad Hominem" A fallacious argument that attacks not an opponent's beliefs but his motives or character an argument that shows an
opponent's statement to be inconsistent with his other belief. Yet you provide no facts to support your religious claims, only Fallacy's < < <
2. The unrestrained praise and effusive sentimentalism toward Mary that is prevalent in Roman Catholicism is never found in the Bible.
> > > a. Luke 1-28, You who are highly favored; 30 “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.; 35, And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.; 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
c. Luke 1:46-55 The The Magnificat: Mary’s Hymn of Praise for Our Lord. www.ourcatholicprayers.com/magnificat.html 46-55 Is the Blessed Virgin Mary’s hymn of praise to the Lord. It is also known as the Canticle of Mary in the Liturgy of the Hours.
d. Matthew 1:20-23 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
e. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
f. Hebrews 10:5Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me.
g. Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law. < < <
3. As for sacrifice, Jesus was a sacrifice because human beings sin continually against God's holiness.
> > > Jesus is the Final and Perfect Sacrificial sin offering. Hebrews 5: 1-10 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” 6 And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” 7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. < < <
Zemirah,
Peace be with thee. . . .
I didn't expected, such a long boastful winded anti-Catholic response. This is not shocking or upsetting to me . . .
But my question to you again ? "So Why Do Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . .
There will be no answer that will suffice your 500 year Reformation, spiteful heart, soul and mind. But i’m still going to give the old college try, cliché.
Sadly, "God" has closed. . . . your mind, . . . your heart, . . . and your soul, . . . for learning, knowledge and having a moment of religious discernment, in the "The Realm of Worship and Sacrifice: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia."
These latin words are used to help you in your anti-Mary religious un-belief's . . .
These words are to clarify “Worship, Sacrifice, Adoration, Veneration, and Devotion. If you look them up, they all have similar meanings, but the difference from a Catholic point of view vs. Evangelical Protestant point of view, e.eg. “Word and phrase semantics” and your anti-catholic religious portrayal and false dichotomy of these useful religious teaching words in our english-latin word vernacular.
My unadulterated religious and secular response to you is, you have pure religious Evangelical Protestant, . . . Hubris. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
Your Ignorance of the bible and the “Gospel’s of Jesus's words and commandment’s and the Apostolic Church writings and teaching’s is religious blissfulness . . . who follow's Christ's . . . Teachings, words and His spiritual faith of Salvation.
Guess that you did not, I repeat once again, Did not read Fr. Dwight Longenecker Response. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html
Protestant's Get It Wrong Again ? In the understanding realm of Worship and Sacrifice: And the latin words "Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia.
Fr. Dwight Longenecker, a former Evangelical Anglican Protestant, a convert to Catholicism brought up and raised on Sola Scriptura and the tenants of the Protestant "Five Sola's." And has religious educational pedigree, and yet still converted to Catholicism.
To this day, even 500 years after the Reformation, the largest two Protestant Churches e.g. Lutheranism and The Church of England-Anglican Church still prays the Rosary and to hold Mary, the Mother Of God, in deep respect, to revere to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
Why haven't you attacked these Protestant churches as well as the Orthodox churches ? Isn't that religious hypocritical truth's, and empty religious rhetoric ?
1. In Fr. Longenecker words, "Protestants are confused about worship, we’ve forgotten the principle of sacrifice, . . . and 500 years ago, threw religious sacrifice out."
2. Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary.
a. They think worship and prayer are the same thing.
b. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Zemirah, I'm not your average Catholic, I pray, I worship the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, believe in the the Holy Sacrement s and believe in the Catholic (Universal) Nicaea'n Creed. https://wn.com/nicaean_creed.
That Jesus Christ is my Savior, that my salvation comes through him. My faith, and understanding is through the infallible Catholic Biblical teaching authority the magisterium. Which has not changed from Jesus, his Apostle's for almost 2000 years.
I know the definition of the word meanings Venerate, Worship and know what Idolatry is.
Here is an example and what I mean by phrase and word semantics.
a. Martin Luther; The First Commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.Therefore no man should presume to take or give anything except as God has commanded.
My answers to you will use these symbols > > > beginning < < < And end, of my responses to your 6 questions.
[quote=Zemirah, > > > Look up the words: Latria..., hyperdulia..., dulia..., < < < unbiblical..., unholy..., unscriptural! > > > This false dichotomy thinking is pure Evangelical Protestant nonsense semantics and is totally fallacious. < < <
1. The false dichotomy the RCC has created in the invented use of these words is merely an excuse to say one is not worshiping Mary when indeed that is exactly what is taking place.
> > > Zemirah, This is a fallacy argument idiom: False Dichotomy, or the cutting into two or division, involved in a contradiction, thought to be incorrect. Below is your fallacy argument idiom.
a. "Straw-Man", a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument:
b. "Red-Herring", something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.
c. "Ad Hominem" A fallacious argument that attacks not an opponent's beliefs but his motives or character an argument that shows an
opponent's statement to be inconsistent with his other belief. Yet you provide no facts to support your religious claims, only Fallacy's < < <
2. The unrestrained praise and effusive sentimentalism toward Mary that is prevalent in Roman Catholicism is never found in the Bible.
> > > a. Luke 1-28, You who are highly favored; 30 “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.; 35, And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.; 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
c. Luke 1:46-55 The The Magnificat: Mary’s Hymn of Praise for Our Lord. www.ourcatholicprayers.com/magnificat.html 46-55 Is the Blessed Virgin Mary’s hymn of praise to the Lord. It is also known as the Canticle of Mary in the Liturgy of the Hours.
d. Matthew 1:20-23 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
e. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
f. Hebrews 10:5Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me.
g. Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law. < < <
3. As for sacrifice, Jesus was a sacrifice because human beings sin continually against God's holiness.
> > > Jesus is the Final and Perfect Sacrificial sin offering. Hebrews 5: 1-10 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” 6 And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” 7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. < < <
Oct 16, 2017 12:50:24 #
1016/2017 This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . . (part 2)
Zemirah,
Peace be with thee. . . .
4. Mary was honored by God, but she was never said to be co-redeemer with Jesus, nor did she remain a virgin after Jesus' birth. She gave birth to Jesus' half-sisters and half-brothers, as a natural wife to Joseph.
> > > It's ironic and hypocritical that you present another "fallacy" in the long lists of "fallacies" in your reply. The Catholic Church does not, I repeat DOES NOT say or teach that Mary co-redeemer with Jesus.
So far you have introduced "error after error" in what the Catholic church teaches. You no facts, only reformation Supposition's, false Innuendo's, and complete Exaggeration's of your own religious personal emotional belief's. Your Protestant hypocritical truth's, empty Evangelical rhetoric is devoid of any real factual substance.
Zemirah, This is no religions discussion, It's a compost anti-Catholic slug fest . . . And your the Anti-Catholic perpetrator of lies . . . About the infallible Catholic Biblical teaching authority the magisterium. A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, Prepared and Enjoined by Order of the Third Council of Baltimore, or simply the Baltimore Catechism, was the official national catechism for children in the United States of America, based on Robert Bellarmine's 1614 Small Catechism. http://www.baltimore-catechism.com < < <
5. Veneration is not simple respect; it is worship. All worship belongs to God alone. You worship Mary, and that is called idolatry. Veneration and worship are the same. As stated previously, you create a dichotomy between the two words to make the excuse that you don't worship Mary, when in fact you do.
> > > The first point of confusion related to this issue is terminology. Veneration from a Catholic perspective, Your Protestant viewpoint, who is outside of the Catholic Church and is looking in. To a Protestant you have a different viewpoint on the word Veneration. The word to explain this word phenomena dichotomy that Protestant have created is "Word and Phrase Semantics." . . .
a. So let’s clarify a few words: worship, adoration, veneration, and devotion. If you look them up, they all have similar meanings, but the difference from a Catholic point of view is that worship and adoration is due only to God, while veneration and devotion to Mary and the saints is possible as a recognition of God’s grace within them.
b. The first commandment clearly states that we should worship God alone. Therefore, only God deserves worship and adoration. Worshiping Mary or the other saints would clearly be idolatry.
c. To venerate is to “honor” or “respect” someone. Only God is holy—the fountain of all holiness—and all holiness found within the saints and Mary comes from God. We venerate Mary because of the special grace that is within her. (See) Question #2 and my reply a. You who are highly favored. b. “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! c. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” d. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” https://www.thereligionteacher.com/do-catholics-worship-mary/
This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . . < < <
5. Revelation 22:8: I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book.
> > > Once again you present fallacies and semantics and take biblical meaning words and phrases out of biblical context, and create another false dichotomy when discussing; The Realm of Worship and Sacrifice: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia and other words; Adoration, Veneration, and Devotion.
This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . .
Peace be unto thee. . . .
Doc110
Zemirah,
Peace be with thee. . . .
4. Mary was honored by God, but she was never said to be co-redeemer with Jesus, nor did she remain a virgin after Jesus' birth. She gave birth to Jesus' half-sisters and half-brothers, as a natural wife to Joseph.
> > > It's ironic and hypocritical that you present another "fallacy" in the long lists of "fallacies" in your reply. The Catholic Church does not, I repeat DOES NOT say or teach that Mary co-redeemer with Jesus.
So far you have introduced "error after error" in what the Catholic church teaches. You no facts, only reformation Supposition's, false Innuendo's, and complete Exaggeration's of your own religious personal emotional belief's. Your Protestant hypocritical truth's, empty Evangelical rhetoric is devoid of any real factual substance.
Zemirah, This is no religions discussion, It's a compost anti-Catholic slug fest . . . And your the Anti-Catholic perpetrator of lies . . . About the infallible Catholic Biblical teaching authority the magisterium. A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, Prepared and Enjoined by Order of the Third Council of Baltimore, or simply the Baltimore Catechism, was the official national catechism for children in the United States of America, based on Robert Bellarmine's 1614 Small Catechism. http://www.baltimore-catechism.com < < <
5. Veneration is not simple respect; it is worship. All worship belongs to God alone. You worship Mary, and that is called idolatry. Veneration and worship are the same. As stated previously, you create a dichotomy between the two words to make the excuse that you don't worship Mary, when in fact you do.
> > > The first point of confusion related to this issue is terminology. Veneration from a Catholic perspective, Your Protestant viewpoint, who is outside of the Catholic Church and is looking in. To a Protestant you have a different viewpoint on the word Veneration. The word to explain this word phenomena dichotomy that Protestant have created is "Word and Phrase Semantics." . . .
a. So let’s clarify a few words: worship, adoration, veneration, and devotion. If you look them up, they all have similar meanings, but the difference from a Catholic point of view is that worship and adoration is due only to God, while veneration and devotion to Mary and the saints is possible as a recognition of God’s grace within them.
b. The first commandment clearly states that we should worship God alone. Therefore, only God deserves worship and adoration. Worshiping Mary or the other saints would clearly be idolatry.
c. To venerate is to “honor” or “respect” someone. Only God is holy—the fountain of all holiness—and all holiness found within the saints and Mary comes from God. We venerate Mary because of the special grace that is within her. (See) Question #2 and my reply a. You who are highly favored. b. “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! c. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” d. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” https://www.thereligionteacher.com/do-catholics-worship-mary/
This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . . < < <
5. Revelation 22:8: I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book.
> > > Once again you present fallacies and semantics and take biblical meaning words and phrases out of biblical context, and create another false dichotomy when discussing; The Realm of Worship and Sacrifice: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia and other words; Adoration, Veneration, and Devotion.
This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . .
Peace be unto thee. . . .
Doc110
Oct 16, 2017 23:25:29 #
No authority, secular or religious, is to be obeyed except as it administers God's Word. Who is to decide? That is the crux of the issue.
Here is a universal principle: The individual, who will be held accountable by God, must decide for himself/herself on the basis of God's Word. All teaching, whether by evangelist, pastor, priest or pope, must be judged and rejected by each individual if not in agreement with God's Word.
As for church authorities, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..." (Hebrews:13:17). Yet the same rule must hold: One is no more free to disobey God when ordered to do so by religious leaders than when commanded by secular rulers. The disciples preached Christ, though forbidden to do so by Israel's religious authorities. Arrested, Peter boldly declared, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts:5:29). So ought we.
Everything I have said about Roman Catholicism came from one of three sources.
1) The Holy Bible
2) The Catholic Encyclopedia: Revised and Updated 1987; (NIHIL OBSTAT) (IMPRIMATUR)
3) Catechism of the Catholic Church; Imprimi Potest; +Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger; 1994 Paulist Press;
For your edification, I am perfectly able to quote and index any RC doctrine to the 2,865 numbered paragraphs of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Institution.
A Christian recognizes God's Word the same way a baby recognizes milk: by its taste and by the fact that it satisfies our spiritual hunger. The newest-born Christian no more needs the Roman Catholic hierarchy to tell him which books belong in the canon than a newborn babe needs Rome to tell it that mother's milk is life-giving.
Rome claims that only priests, bishops, cardinals, popes are led of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible says, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans:8:9) and "as many as are led of the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans:8:14). To be led of the Spirit loses any meaning if the Holy Spirit who inspired it can't interpret the Bible to the individual. but one must blindly accept the interpretation of some magisterium.
The rejection of God's authority by power hungry institutions and the resulting lack of unity began with Satan's rebellion against God. The chaos on this planet cannot be remedied through some religious hierarchy telling the rest of us what to believe.
Individuals must be restored to a living, dynamic, personal relationship with God by which His Holy Spirit, through Christ indwelling each heart, brings loving submission to His perfect will. That's the "unity of the Spirit" which God establishes in His truth and which each of us is to guard.
It is most unfortunate that everything in the response I have received, for whatever reason, is supposition, personal insults, deliberate fabrication (or duplicity committed in ignorance).
Here is a universal principle: The individual, who will be held accountable by God, must decide for himself/herself on the basis of God's Word. All teaching, whether by evangelist, pastor, priest or pope, must be judged and rejected by each individual if not in agreement with God's Word.
As for church authorities, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..." (Hebrews:13:17). Yet the same rule must hold: One is no more free to disobey God when ordered to do so by religious leaders than when commanded by secular rulers. The disciples preached Christ, though forbidden to do so by Israel's religious authorities. Arrested, Peter boldly declared, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts:5:29). So ought we.
Everything I have said about Roman Catholicism came from one of three sources.
1) The Holy Bible
2) The Catholic Encyclopedia: Revised and Updated 1987; (NIHIL OBSTAT) (IMPRIMATUR)
3) Catechism of the Catholic Church; Imprimi Potest; +Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger; 1994 Paulist Press;
For your edification, I am perfectly able to quote and index any RC doctrine to the 2,865 numbered paragraphs of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Institution.
A Christian recognizes God's Word the same way a baby recognizes milk: by its taste and by the fact that it satisfies our spiritual hunger. The newest-born Christian no more needs the Roman Catholic hierarchy to tell him which books belong in the canon than a newborn babe needs Rome to tell it that mother's milk is life-giving.
Rome claims that only priests, bishops, cardinals, popes are led of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible says, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans:8:9) and "as many as are led of the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans:8:14). To be led of the Spirit loses any meaning if the Holy Spirit who inspired it can't interpret the Bible to the individual. but one must blindly accept the interpretation of some magisterium.
The rejection of God's authority by power hungry institutions and the resulting lack of unity began with Satan's rebellion against God. The chaos on this planet cannot be remedied through some religious hierarchy telling the rest of us what to believe.
Individuals must be restored to a living, dynamic, personal relationship with God by which His Holy Spirit, through Christ indwelling each heart, brings loving submission to His perfect will. That's the "unity of the Spirit" which God establishes in His truth and which each of us is to guard.
It is most unfortunate that everything in the response I have received, for whatever reason, is supposition, personal insults, deliberate fabrication (or duplicity committed in ignorance).
Doc110 wrote:
1016/2017 This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Ge... (show quote)
Oct 17, 2017 00:40:28 #
All of humanity's seemingly diverse conflicts are traceable to the Garden of Eden - and from Adam and Eve to each of us. Where God's authority is not acknowledged as supreme and obeyed, there can be no order, in society, the home or the heart. When Self rules, egos clash and false gods abound.
Two dissimilar evils result: 1) those who disobey God compete for supremacy among themselves, selfishly and often cruelly; and/or 2) they submit blindly to some power hungry earthly authority (secular or religious), in order to escape personal moral accountability to God. They are, however, without escape. Wrongdoing is not excused because it was commissioned by a "lawful" authority.
We are commanded to "submit...to every ordinance of man," to "king and governors" (1 Peter 2:13-14). Christians are required even to obey godless secular officials (Romans:13:1-7) - but only as they administer righteousness. No ruler has the right to command others except as God's representative. "There is no power but of God: the civil powers that be are ordained of God" to be His "ministers" (Romans:13:1).
If a ruler commands what is morally wrong he must be disobeyed. That was what the Nuremberg war crimes trials were all about. No one was to be exonerated of a crime because it was ordered by Hitler, Himmler or a military officer. God is the supreme authority. His moral law engraved on every conscience must always be obeyed, even when to do so means disobeying legitimate human authority.
Thus it was not only right but required of the Hebrew midwives to disobey Pharaoh's edict and thus save newborn males alive (Exodus 1:17). It was and still is right to smuggle Bibles into dictatorial lands, and for Christians in China or Muslim countries to evangelize in defiance of godless laws. Were that not so, Jesus would have had to remain in the grave. By rising from the dead, He disobeyed the religious and civil authorities who had put Him to death and then secured His tomb with the official Roman government seal.
Is that not what it means to be a Berean? "These in Berea were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts:17:11). The Bereans checked the great Apostle Paul's teaching against the Old Testament (before N.T. was completed) to see whether he was biblical. Each Berean was personally responsible to make that judgment and act upon it.
It's likely that some Bereans discussed the matter together. There is not a hint, however, that a "committee" of Bereans or some spiritual hierarchy took it upon themselves to decide for the rest whether Paul's teachings were biblical. Note that Paul's authority as the chief apostle to the gentiles who wrote most of the epistles did not seek acceptance of what he taught from other apostles. Nor did he direct the Bereans to some church authority in Jerusalem or in Rome that would decide for them.
Three things are clear: 1) each Berean studied the Bible for himself;
2) each Berean was capable, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, of understanding the Bible; and 3) on the basis of whether he or she believed it to be biblical, each Berean made a personal decision to accept or reject Paul's teaching - and was commended for doing so. We must be Bereans in our day.
Lawful authority is to be obeyed - only in harmony with God's Word. And for that limitation to apply, each individual must decide for himself. It cannot be otherwise.
Suppose a pastor or elder teaches something that I am convinced is unbiblical? In love and humility I must discuss the issue with him from Scripture. Perhaps I misunderstood his position. It may ultimately be necessary to leave the church, but only as a last resort and in view of serious false doctrine that persists.
Bereans don't belong to cults. No cult can endure their insistence upon checking everything out for themselves from Scripture. It is by denying individual accountability to God that cults keep their members in bondage.
Mormons may not question the dictates of their hierarchy in Salt Lake City;
nor may Jehovah's Witnesses question the teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in Brooklyn.
Likewise, Roman Catholics must accept unquestioningly the dogmas of their "infallible" Church. Rome makes no secret that it denies the individual's direct moral responsibility to God.
Take, for example, Vatican II's "Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation," approved by the members of the Council and signed by Pope Paul VI, November 18, 1965. It declares, "The duty of interpreting God's word...has been entrusted exclusively to the teaching office of the Church (called the magisterium). This teaching office is exercised by the pope and the bishops... for all interpretations of Scripture...."
Roman Catholicism stoutly defends their cultic denial of the individual's right and duty to know and interpret the Bible for himself. They blame the multiplication of Protestant denominations upon individual interpretation and claim that only through submission to the pope can unity be reestablished among all Christians.
We are to "keep the unity of the Spirit" (Ephesians:4:3) which God has already established, however, conformity to the interpretation of a central authority such as Rome, unauthorized by God, and led by a usurper who falsely misrepresents himself as the head of Christ's Body on earth brings only the uniformity of spiritual death.
The leading and empowering of each individual by the Holy Spirit produces the dynamic unity of a world-wide living spiritual organism known as the Body of Christ, i.e., the Christian Church, with Jesus Christ as it's only head.
[quote=Doc110]1016/2017 This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . . (part 1)
Zemirah,
Peace be with thee. . . .
I didn't expected, such a long boastful winded anti-Catholic response. This is not shocking or upsetting to me . . .
But my question to you again ? "So Why Do Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . .
There will be no answer that will suffice your 500 year Reformation, spiteful heart, soul and mind. But i’m still going to give the old college try, cliché.
Sadly, "God" has closed. . . . your mind, . . . your heart, . . . and your soul, . . . for learning, knowledge and having a moment of religious discernment, in the "The Realm of Worship and Sacrifice: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia."
These latin words are used to help you in your anti-Mary religious un-belief's . . .
These words are to clarify “Worship, Sacrifice, Adoration, Veneration, and Devotion. If you look them up, they all have similar meanings, but the difference from a Catholic point of view vs. Evangelical Protestant point of view, e.eg. “Word and phrase semantics” and your anti-catholic religious portrayal and false dichotomy of these useful religious teaching words in our english-latin word vernacular.
My unadulterated religious and secular response to you is, you have pure religious Evangelical Protestant, . . . Hubris. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
Your Ignorance of the bible and the “Gospel’s of Jesus's words and commandment’s and the Apostolic Church writings and teaching’s is religious blissfulness . . . who follow's Christ's . . . Teachings, words and His spiritual faith of Salvation.
Guess that you did not, I repeat once again, Did not read Fr. Dwight Longenecker Response. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html
Protestant's Get It Wrong Again ? In the understanding realm of Worship and Sacrifice: And the latin words "Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia.
Fr. Dwight Longenecker, a former Evangelical Anglican Protestant, a convert to Catholicism brought up and raised on Sola Scriptura and the tenants of the Protestant "Five Sola's." And has religious educational pedigree, and yet still converted to Catholicism.
To this day, even 500 years after the Reformation, the largest two Protestant Churches e.g. Lutheranism and The Church of England-Anglican Church still prays the Rosary and to hold Mary, the Mother Of God, in deep respect, to revere to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
Why haven't you attacked these Protestant churches as well as the Orthodox churches ? Isn't that religious hypocritical truth's, and empty religious rhetoric ?
1. In Fr. Longenecker words, "Protestants are confused about worship, we’ve forgotten the principle of sacrifice, . . . and 500 years ago, threw religious sacrifice out."
2. Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary.
a. They think worship and prayer are the same thing.
b. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Zemirah, I'm not your average Catholic, I pray, I worship the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, believe in the the Holy Sacrement s and believe in the Catholic (Universal) Nicaea'n Creed. https://wn.com/nicaean_creed.
That Jesus Christ is my Savior, that my salvation comes through him. My faith, and understanding is through the infallible Catholic Biblical teaching authority the magisterium. Which has not changed from Jesus, his Apostle's for almost 2000 years.
I know the definition of the word meanings Venerate, Worship and know what Idolatry is.
Here is an example and what I mean by phrase and word semantics.
a. Martin Luther; The First Commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.Therefore no man should presume to take or give anything except as God has commanded.
My answers to you will use these symbols > > > beginning < < < And end, of my responses to your 6 questions.
[quote=Zemirah, > > > Look up the words: Latria..., hyperdulia..., dulia..., < < < unbiblical..., unholy..., unscriptural! > > > This false dichotomy thinking is pure Evangelical Protestant nonsense semantics and is totally fallacious. < < <
1. The false dichotomy the RCC has created in the invented use of these words is merely an excuse to say one is not worshiping Mary when indeed that is exactly what is taking place.
> > > Zemirah, This is a fallacy argument idiom: False Dichotomy, or the cutting into two or division, involved in a contradiction, thought to be incorrect. Below is your fallacy argument idiom.
a. "Straw-Man", a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument:
b. "Red-Herring", something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.
c. "Ad Hominem" A fallacious argument that attacks not an opponent's beliefs but his motives or character an argument that shows an
opponent's statement to be inconsistent with his other belief. Yet you provide no facts to support your religious claims, only Fallacy's < < <
2. The unrestrained praise and effusive sentimentalism toward Mary that is prevalent in Roman Catholicism is never found in the Bible.
> > > a. Luke 1-28, You who are highly favored; 30 “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.; 35, And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.; 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
c. Luke 1:46-55 The The Magnificat: Mary’s Hymn of Praise for Our Lord. www.ourcatholicprayers.com/magnificat.html 46-55 Is the Blessed Virgin Mary’s hymn of praise to the Lord. It is also known as the Canticle of Mary in the Liturgy of the Hours.
d. Matthew 1:20-23 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
e. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
f. Hebrews 10:5Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me.
g. Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law. < < <
3. As for sacrifice, Jesus was a sacrifice because human beings sin continually against God's holiness.
> > > Jesus is the Final and Perfect Sacrificial sin offering. Hebrews 5: 1-10 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” 6 And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” 7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. < < <[/quote]
Two dissimilar evils result: 1) those who disobey God compete for supremacy among themselves, selfishly and often cruelly; and/or 2) they submit blindly to some power hungry earthly authority (secular or religious), in order to escape personal moral accountability to God. They are, however, without escape. Wrongdoing is not excused because it was commissioned by a "lawful" authority.
We are commanded to "submit...to every ordinance of man," to "king and governors" (1 Peter 2:13-14). Christians are required even to obey godless secular officials (Romans:13:1-7) - but only as they administer righteousness. No ruler has the right to command others except as God's representative. "There is no power but of God: the civil powers that be are ordained of God" to be His "ministers" (Romans:13:1).
If a ruler commands what is morally wrong he must be disobeyed. That was what the Nuremberg war crimes trials were all about. No one was to be exonerated of a crime because it was ordered by Hitler, Himmler or a military officer. God is the supreme authority. His moral law engraved on every conscience must always be obeyed, even when to do so means disobeying legitimate human authority.
Thus it was not only right but required of the Hebrew midwives to disobey Pharaoh's edict and thus save newborn males alive (Exodus 1:17). It was and still is right to smuggle Bibles into dictatorial lands, and for Christians in China or Muslim countries to evangelize in defiance of godless laws. Were that not so, Jesus would have had to remain in the grave. By rising from the dead, He disobeyed the religious and civil authorities who had put Him to death and then secured His tomb with the official Roman government seal.
Is that not what it means to be a Berean? "These in Berea were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts:17:11). The Bereans checked the great Apostle Paul's teaching against the Old Testament (before N.T. was completed) to see whether he was biblical. Each Berean was personally responsible to make that judgment and act upon it.
It's likely that some Bereans discussed the matter together. There is not a hint, however, that a "committee" of Bereans or some spiritual hierarchy took it upon themselves to decide for the rest whether Paul's teachings were biblical. Note that Paul's authority as the chief apostle to the gentiles who wrote most of the epistles did not seek acceptance of what he taught from other apostles. Nor did he direct the Bereans to some church authority in Jerusalem or in Rome that would decide for them.
Three things are clear: 1) each Berean studied the Bible for himself;
2) each Berean was capable, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, of understanding the Bible; and 3) on the basis of whether he or she believed it to be biblical, each Berean made a personal decision to accept or reject Paul's teaching - and was commended for doing so. We must be Bereans in our day.
Lawful authority is to be obeyed - only in harmony with God's Word. And for that limitation to apply, each individual must decide for himself. It cannot be otherwise.
Suppose a pastor or elder teaches something that I am convinced is unbiblical? In love and humility I must discuss the issue with him from Scripture. Perhaps I misunderstood his position. It may ultimately be necessary to leave the church, but only as a last resort and in view of serious false doctrine that persists.
Bereans don't belong to cults. No cult can endure their insistence upon checking everything out for themselves from Scripture. It is by denying individual accountability to God that cults keep their members in bondage.
Mormons may not question the dictates of their hierarchy in Salt Lake City;
nor may Jehovah's Witnesses question the teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in Brooklyn.
Likewise, Roman Catholics must accept unquestioningly the dogmas of their "infallible" Church. Rome makes no secret that it denies the individual's direct moral responsibility to God.
Take, for example, Vatican II's "Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation," approved by the members of the Council and signed by Pope Paul VI, November 18, 1965. It declares, "The duty of interpreting God's word...has been entrusted exclusively to the teaching office of the Church (called the magisterium). This teaching office is exercised by the pope and the bishops... for all interpretations of Scripture...."
Roman Catholicism stoutly defends their cultic denial of the individual's right and duty to know and interpret the Bible for himself. They blame the multiplication of Protestant denominations upon individual interpretation and claim that only through submission to the pope can unity be reestablished among all Christians.
We are to "keep the unity of the Spirit" (Ephesians:4:3) which God has already established, however, conformity to the interpretation of a central authority such as Rome, unauthorized by God, and led by a usurper who falsely misrepresents himself as the head of Christ's Body on earth brings only the uniformity of spiritual death.
The leading and empowering of each individual by the Holy Spirit produces the dynamic unity of a world-wide living spiritual organism known as the Body of Christ, i.e., the Christian Church, with Jesus Christ as it's only head.
[quote=Doc110]1016/2017 This Is why, Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . . (part 1)
Zemirah,
Peace be with thee. . . .
I didn't expected, such a long boastful winded anti-Catholic response. This is not shocking or upsetting to me . . .
But my question to you again ? "So Why Do Evangelical Protestant's Get It Wrong" ? ? ? . . . Get It Wrong ? ? ? . . . Catholics do not worship Mary . . .
There will be no answer that will suffice your 500 year Reformation, spiteful heart, soul and mind. But i’m still going to give the old college try, cliché.
Sadly, "God" has closed. . . . your mind, . . . your heart, . . . and your soul, . . . for learning, knowledge and having a moment of religious discernment, in the "The Realm of Worship and Sacrifice: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia."
These latin words are used to help you in your anti-Mary religious un-belief's . . .
These words are to clarify “Worship, Sacrifice, Adoration, Veneration, and Devotion. If you look them up, they all have similar meanings, but the difference from a Catholic point of view vs. Evangelical Protestant point of view, e.eg. “Word and phrase semantics” and your anti-catholic religious portrayal and false dichotomy of these useful religious teaching words in our english-latin word vernacular.
My unadulterated religious and secular response to you is, you have pure religious Evangelical Protestant, . . . Hubris. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
Your Ignorance of the bible and the “Gospel’s of Jesus's words and commandment’s and the Apostolic Church writings and teaching’s is religious blissfulness . . . who follow's Christ's . . . Teachings, words and His spiritual faith of Salvation.
Guess that you did not, I repeat once again, Did not read Fr. Dwight Longenecker Response. . . . Catholics DO NOT Worship Mary . . .
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html
Protestant's Get It Wrong Again ? In the understanding realm of Worship and Sacrifice: And the latin words "Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia.
Fr. Dwight Longenecker, a former Evangelical Anglican Protestant, a convert to Catholicism brought up and raised on Sola Scriptura and the tenants of the Protestant "Five Sola's." And has religious educational pedigree, and yet still converted to Catholicism.
To this day, even 500 years after the Reformation, the largest two Protestant Churches e.g. Lutheranism and The Church of England-Anglican Church still prays the Rosary and to hold Mary, the Mother Of God, in deep respect, to revere to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.
Why haven't you attacked these Protestant churches as well as the Orthodox churches ? Isn't that religious hypocritical truth's, and empty religious rhetoric ?
1. In Fr. Longenecker words, "Protestants are confused about worship, we’ve forgotten the principle of sacrifice, . . . and 500 years ago, threw religious sacrifice out."
2. Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary.
a. They think worship and prayer are the same thing.
b. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Zemirah, I'm not your average Catholic, I pray, I worship the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, believe in the the Holy Sacrement s and believe in the Catholic (Universal) Nicaea'n Creed. https://wn.com/nicaean_creed.
That Jesus Christ is my Savior, that my salvation comes through him. My faith, and understanding is through the infallible Catholic Biblical teaching authority the magisterium. Which has not changed from Jesus, his Apostle's for almost 2000 years.
I know the definition of the word meanings Venerate, Worship and know what Idolatry is.
Here is an example and what I mean by phrase and word semantics.
a. Martin Luther; The First Commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.Therefore no man should presume to take or give anything except as God has commanded.
My answers to you will use these symbols > > > beginning < < < And end, of my responses to your 6 questions.
[quote=Zemirah, > > > Look up the words: Latria..., hyperdulia..., dulia..., < < < unbiblical..., unholy..., unscriptural! > > > This false dichotomy thinking is pure Evangelical Protestant nonsense semantics and is totally fallacious. < < <
1. The false dichotomy the RCC has created in the invented use of these words is merely an excuse to say one is not worshiping Mary when indeed that is exactly what is taking place.
> > > Zemirah, This is a fallacy argument idiom: False Dichotomy, or the cutting into two or division, involved in a contradiction, thought to be incorrect. Below is your fallacy argument idiom.
a. "Straw-Man", a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument:
b. "Red-Herring", something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.
c. "Ad Hominem" A fallacious argument that attacks not an opponent's beliefs but his motives or character an argument that shows an
opponent's statement to be inconsistent with his other belief. Yet you provide no facts to support your religious claims, only Fallacy's < < <
2. The unrestrained praise and effusive sentimentalism toward Mary that is prevalent in Roman Catholicism is never found in the Bible.
> > > a. Luke 1-28, You who are highly favored; 30 “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.; 35, And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.; 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
c. Luke 1:46-55 The The Magnificat: Mary’s Hymn of Praise for Our Lord. www.ourcatholicprayers.com/magnificat.html 46-55 Is the Blessed Virgin Mary’s hymn of praise to the Lord. It is also known as the Canticle of Mary in the Liturgy of the Hours.
d. Matthew 1:20-23 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
e. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
f. Hebrews 10:5Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me.
g. Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law. < < <
3. As for sacrifice, Jesus was a sacrifice because human beings sin continually against God's holiness.
> > > Jesus is the Final and Perfect Sacrificial sin offering. Hebrews 5: 1-10 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” 6 And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” 7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. < < <[/quote]
Oct 17, 2017 02:25:23 #
Zemirah,
Do Catholics Worship Mary? No. So Why Do Protestant's Get It Wrong?
Obviously you continue to lecture but give the standard religious fallacy statements again and again . . .
Sadly, "God" has closed. . . . your mind, . . . your heart, . . . and your soul, . . . for learning, knowledge and having a moment of religious discernment.
Try too stay with the topic article thread, don't get sidetracks with your obvious Evangelical ranting and ravings . . .
I will answer your questions, If you answer mine. ? Tit-for-tat or you going to be obtuse and obstinate when engaging with me ?
This has alway's been the problem, a "One-Sided Debate" here on the OPP Forum, with protestant evangelicals.
They never say what church or Protestant denomination they belong too . . . ?
The basis of their Christian theology, or is it through "self interpretation" and by what teaching authority can they make this basis . . . ?
Again my answers to you will use these symbols > > > beginning < < < And end, of my responses to your 6 questions.
You only lecture, your boring evangelical boring.
These are caned Evangelical response.
Do Catholics Worship Mary? No. So Why Do Protestant's Get It Wrong?
Obviously you continue to lecture but give the standard religious fallacy statements again and again . . .
Sadly, "God" has closed. . . . your mind, . . . your heart, . . . and your soul, . . . for learning, knowledge and having a moment of religious discernment.
Try too stay with the topic article thread, don't get sidetracks with your obvious Evangelical ranting and ravings . . .
I will answer your questions, If you answer mine. ? Tit-for-tat or you going to be obtuse and obstinate when engaging with me ?
This has alway's been the problem, a "One-Sided Debate" here on the OPP Forum, with protestant evangelicals.
They never say what church or Protestant denomination they belong too . . . ?
The basis of their Christian theology, or is it through "self interpretation" and by what teaching authority can they make this basis . . . ?
Again my answers to you will use these symbols > > > beginning < < < And end, of my responses to your 6 questions.
Zemirah
1. No authority, secular or religious, is to be obeyed except as it administers God's Word. Who is to decide? That is the crux of the issue.
> > > By what authority do you have to judge others, on religious preference and Church institution, this is arrogance and hypocritical ?
It's quite clear that you reject any religious notion other than your own.
You provide no factual evidence other than saying it's the "word of God." You have already decided your position with a fallacy idiom, evasive answer. Clearly you want no discussion, it's your way or the highway. And Yet you only provided rhetoric and no facts to support your ideas. < < <
2. Here is a universal principle: The individual, who will be held accountable by God, must decide for himself/herself on the basis of God's Word. All teaching, whether by evangelist, pastor, priest or pope, must be judged and rejected by each individual if not in agreement with God's Word.
> > > Here you go again, your fall-back fallacy, "The Word Of God," or "Sola Scriptura" a fall-back boring answer once again . . .
3. As for church authorities, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..." (Hebrews:13:17).
Yet the same rule must hold: One is no more free to disobey God when ordered to do so by religious leaders than when commanded by secular rulers.
The disciples preached Christ, though forbidden to do so by Israel's religious authorities. Arrested, Peter boldly declared, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts:5:29). So ought we.
> > > As most Evangelicals they take out of context the words and verses in the New and Old Testament. As you have done here. . . . Hebrews 13: 17 Peter was being addressed to the Jewish temple priest's and the Sanhedrin, and not to the infant fledgling Catholic church. The problem with most Evangelicals and yourself, Is that you never go to the source, the Gospel writing's and Words of Jesus Christ, and you misinterpret Saint Paul all the time . . . < < <
4. Everything I have said about Roman Catholicism came from one of three sources.
a. The Holy Bible
b. The Catholic Encyclopedia: Revised and Updated 1987; (NIHIL OBSTAT) (IMPRIMATUR)
c. Catechism of the Catholic Church; Imprimi Potest; + Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger; 1994 Paulist Press;
For your edification, I am perfectly able to quote and index any RC doctrine to the 2,865 numbered paragraphs of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Institution.
> > > Why not go to the library source at the Vatican web-site . . . Which Holy Bible, ? a. Vulgate, NIV, Douay Rheims - Geneva, King James version, Revised Standard (RSV), New American Bible
Revised Standard 2nd Edition, New American Bible (NAB), Revised Edition NABRE, the Jerusalem Bible.
b. Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
c. Text, which you access from the index or from the concordances. Footnotes, word lists: are linked to the concordances; lists comprising every occurrence of a particular word in the text. Each occurrence is displayed in the centre of a short extract from the text;
statistics: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_AIUTO.HTM#concordanze
d. Compendium - Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
e. Code of Canon Law http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
f. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
5. A Christian recognizes God's Word the same way a baby recognizes milk: by its taste and by the fact that it satisfies our spiritual hunger. The newest-born Christian no more needs the Roman Catholic hierarchy to tell him which books belong in the canon than a newborn babe needs Rome to tell it that mother's milk is life-giving.
> > > Please if you really have something to say, don't use medphors and cliché, your lecturing once again . . . < < <
6. Rome claims that only priests, bishops, cardinals, popes are led of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible says, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans:8:9) and "as many as are led of the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans:8:14). To be led of the Spirit loses any meaning if the Holy Spirit who inspired it can't interpret the Bible to the individual. but one must blindly accept the interpretation of some magisterium.
> > > Your being judgmental, once again and taking out of context Saint Pauls passages again. Your interpreting the bible again. You don't even know what the Catholic teaching magisterium is . . . ?
a. Truths taught as divinely revealed,
b. Definitively proposed statements on matters closely connected with revealed truth, and
c. Ordinary teaching on faith and morals.
d. A fourth category, ordinary prudential teaching on disciplinary matters, is commonly accepted by theologians
The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching. The tight wording of this Instruction prevents any false distinction between the theological virtue and that “divine and Catholic faith” of Dei Filius. The Instruction assigns the same assent to both of the modes of magisterial teaching we have just outlined: http://catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching.html < < <
7. The rejection of God's authority by power hungry institutions and the resulting lack of unity began with Satan's rebellion against God. The chaos on this planet cannot be remedied through some religious hierarchy telling the rest of us what to believe. > > > Do you ever stop with the lecturing ? Sola Scriptura once again. < < <
8. Individuals must be restored to a living, dynamic, personal relationship with God by which His Holy Spirit, through Christ indwelling each heart, brings loving submission to His perfect will. That's the "unity of the Spirit" which God establishes in His truth and which each of us is to guard.[/b wrote:
It is most unfortunate that everything in the response I have received, for whatever reason, is supposition, personal insults, deliberate fabrication (or duplicity committed in ignorance).
1. No authority, secular or religious, is to be obeyed except as it administers God's Word. Who is to decide? That is the crux of the issue.
> > > By what authority do you have to judge others, on religious preference and Church institution, this is arrogance and hypocritical ?
It's quite clear that you reject any religious notion other than your own.
You provide no factual evidence other than saying it's the "word of God." You have already decided your position with a fallacy idiom, evasive answer. Clearly you want no discussion, it's your way or the highway. And Yet you only provided rhetoric and no facts to support your ideas. < < <
2. Here is a universal principle: The individual, who will be held accountable by God, must decide for himself/herself on the basis of God's Word. All teaching, whether by evangelist, pastor, priest or pope, must be judged and rejected by each individual if not in agreement with God's Word.
> > > Here you go again, your fall-back fallacy, "The Word Of God," or "Sola Scriptura" a fall-back boring answer once again . . .
3. As for church authorities, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..." (Hebrews:13:17).
Yet the same rule must hold: One is no more free to disobey God when ordered to do so by religious leaders than when commanded by secular rulers.
The disciples preached Christ, though forbidden to do so by Israel's religious authorities. Arrested, Peter boldly declared, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts:5:29). So ought we.
> > > As most Evangelicals they take out of context the words and verses in the New and Old Testament. As you have done here. . . . Hebrews 13: 17 Peter was being addressed to the Jewish temple priest's and the Sanhedrin, and not to the infant fledgling Catholic church. The problem with most Evangelicals and yourself, Is that you never go to the source, the Gospel writing's and Words of Jesus Christ, and you misinterpret Saint Paul all the time . . . < < <
4. Everything I have said about Roman Catholicism came from one of three sources.
a. The Holy Bible
b. The Catholic Encyclopedia: Revised and Updated 1987; (NIHIL OBSTAT) (IMPRIMATUR)
c. Catechism of the Catholic Church; Imprimi Potest; + Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger; 1994 Paulist Press;
For your edification, I am perfectly able to quote and index any RC doctrine to the 2,865 numbered paragraphs of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Institution.
> > > Why not go to the library source at the Vatican web-site . . . Which Holy Bible, ? a. Vulgate, NIV, Douay Rheims - Geneva, King James version, Revised Standard (RSV), New American Bible
Revised Standard 2nd Edition, New American Bible (NAB), Revised Edition NABRE, the Jerusalem Bible.
b. Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
c. Text, which you access from the index or from the concordances. Footnotes, word lists: are linked to the concordances; lists comprising every occurrence of a particular word in the text. Each occurrence is displayed in the centre of a short extract from the text;
statistics: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_AIUTO.HTM#concordanze
d. Compendium - Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
e. Code of Canon Law http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
f. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
5. A Christian recognizes God's Word the same way a baby recognizes milk: by its taste and by the fact that it satisfies our spiritual hunger. The newest-born Christian no more needs the Roman Catholic hierarchy to tell him which books belong in the canon than a newborn babe needs Rome to tell it that mother's milk is life-giving.
> > > Please if you really have something to say, don't use medphors and cliché, your lecturing once again . . . < < <
6. Rome claims that only priests, bishops, cardinals, popes are led of the Holy Spirit. But the Bible says, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans:8:9) and "as many as are led of the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans:8:14). To be led of the Spirit loses any meaning if the Holy Spirit who inspired it can't interpret the Bible to the individual. but one must blindly accept the interpretation of some magisterium.
> > > Your being judgmental, once again and taking out of context Saint Pauls passages again. Your interpreting the bible again. You don't even know what the Catholic teaching magisterium is . . . ?
a. Truths taught as divinely revealed,
b. Definitively proposed statements on matters closely connected with revealed truth, and
c. Ordinary teaching on faith and morals.
d. A fourth category, ordinary prudential teaching on disciplinary matters, is commonly accepted by theologians
The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching. The tight wording of this Instruction prevents any false distinction between the theological virtue and that “divine and Catholic faith” of Dei Filius. The Instruction assigns the same assent to both of the modes of magisterial teaching we have just outlined: http://catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching.html < < <
7. The rejection of God's authority by power hungry institutions and the resulting lack of unity began with Satan's rebellion against God. The chaos on this planet cannot be remedied through some religious hierarchy telling the rest of us what to believe. > > > Do you ever stop with the lecturing ? Sola Scriptura once again. < < <
8. Individuals must be restored to a living, dynamic, personal relationship with God by which His Holy Spirit, through Christ indwelling each heart, brings loving submission to His perfect will. That's the "unity of the Spirit" which God establishes in His truth and which each of us is to guard.[/b wrote:
It is most unfortunate that everything in the response I have received, for whatever reason, is supposition, personal insults, deliberate fabrication (or duplicity committed in ignorance).
You only lecture, your boring evangelical boring.
These are caned Evangelical response.
Oct 20, 2017 05:02:10 #
The Pagan Origin of Mary Worship
The "Lady of the Jesuits" is not actually even an invention of the Jesuits, but an adoption of a pagan conception which cursed Babylon, the prototype of the modern Babylon, centuries before Christ appeared as the son of Mary. Pictures of the mother and child were then worshiped. In the devotional books of the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of God is crowned, sceptred and enthroned as the Queen of heaven. ("She has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth", Pius IX, 1854, but not made "official" till 1954 by Pius XII.)
"I can never," said the Rev. M. Hobart Seymour, in his Evenings with the Roman Catholics, page 254, "forget the shock I received when I first saw in their churches in Italy, the Virgin Mary crowned as Queen of heaven, seated on the same throne with Jesus crowned King of heaven. These were the God-man and God-woman enthroned alike. There was nothing to distinguish the one above the other."
The origin of this idolatry had its root in ancient mythology. Astarte of the Assyrians, Ashtoreth of the Sidonians and Bowaney of the Hindus held the place that Mary occupies in the church of Rome. Greece had her Venus and Rome her Juno. The Diana of the Ephesians was a female, from whose body in every part there seemed to be issuing all the various animals of creation, symbolizing the conception and creation of all things.
The Egyptians on the one hand and the Etrurians on the other had their Isis, the same symbol, a female divinity whom they regarded as "the mother of the gods." Jeremiah describes the Jews who had rebelled against God as making cakes to "the queen of heaven" (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17), the title given to Juno in the Scandinavian theology. Rome has adopted this element of heathenism, this product of the carnal heart and mind.
In all its essential elements the Roman Etrurian and the Roman Catholic Mary brought from Babylon and adopted by papal Rome are in accord - Roman Catholicism teaches their members to be idolaters. In their churches are pictures of the Virgin that are worshiped because of the wonderful things professedly done by them. In St. Peter's is a picture of the Virgin bearing the inscription that it had miraculously shed blood when struck by a stone. A picture of the mother and child is at Lucca, of which it was affirmed that when some one flung a stone at the face of the child she transferred the child to the other arm and thus saved it from injury. Although this is blind superstition, and at the worst, demonic deception, the Jesuits defend this.
It is claimed by Roman Catholicism that the mother and child sustain the same relation in heaven which they have assigned them on earth, and that Jesus is more the mediator with Mary than Mary is the intercessor with Christ. From Babylon, this worship of the mother and child spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, in Assyria, in China and in Greece and elsewhere, this form of worship suited to the carnal heart gained sway. Circe, the daughter of the sun, taken from Pompeii, has the nimbus or circle surrounding the head in the very same way as the head of the Roman Madonna is at this time adorned in the pictures given of this mistress of Rubens, this lady of the Jesuits. Can any one believe this coincidence accidental?
Idolatry of Mary encourages sinners.
Christ's worship is built on the teachings of the Scriptures of God. To obtain forgiveness of sins through Christ there must be a change of heart, a new birth, a new life. Old things must pass away, all things must become new. Roman Catholics are taught and believe that they can be saved more easily through Mary. Christ requires repentance, Mary devotion. Faith in Christ demands submission to the will of God, reformation of life, and devotion of heart as required by the gospel; while devotion to Mary consists in prayers to her or some external practices in her honor.
Liguori teaches that damnation is impossible where there is devotion to the Virgin. Hence the worship of Mary encourages sinners and multiplies sins. Pio Nono (Pius IX), after decreeing the Immaculate Conception, made the cornerstone of the Romish faith to believe and to teach that salvation is received solely and alone through Mary. It is ours to refute this blasphemous assumption by proclaiming Christ and agreeing with Holy Scripture which proclaims He is the way, the truth, and the life.
When Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ her unique mission ended. The dream that haunted the imagination of the Jewish maiden was fulfilled; Mary had given birth to Jesus. The world worshiped the one being born, not the one who gave birth to the Son of man and the Son of God. They did it then. True believers do it now as they will do it in heaven. Mary will walk with the redeemed in white, however "the assumption of Mary" (bodily into heaven, Pius XII, 1950), is an invention of Roman Catholicism, and it is nothing more.
Mary has not risen and will not rise until the trump shall sound, when she will come forth and cast her crown at the feet of Christ, with the countless throng that no man can number. The idolatry of Mary, the perpetual virginity of the virgin, is a RC lie and calculated to deceive millions, while it is an insult to our Lord and Savior.
It declares that Jesus Christ lacks compassion, is wanting in knowledge and depends for information upon Mary, and is without willingness to help and save the lost.
As a virgin, Mary became the medium through which the ever blessed Christ came into the world. Because of this she was blessed among women. She was not worshiped by those who knew her in the flesh, and she is without any claim to worship at this time, or at any time.
Jesus Christ is the Stone which is being set at naught by Roman Catholicism, but as Peter himself said "Jesus is the head of the corner; neither is there any salvation in any other, for there is none other name given among men whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:11-12) Hence in our hearts and with our lips we glorify Christ, and reject Mary worship idolatry as dishonoring to God and destructive of faith in Christ, and we glorify the one Mediator between God and man (1Titus 2:5), Christ Jesus our Lord, who was crucified, dead and buried, and who rose from the dead and ascended up on high (Ephesians 4:8) and was welcomed into heaven by the multitudes that no man can number and is worshiped by the redeemed as the being by whom and for whom all things were made. (Colossians 1:16)
by Justin Dewey Fulton D.D., "Is it Mary or the Lady of the Jesuits?", Brooklyn, New York, January, 1890.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is Mary the "Mother of God"?
The history of the doctrine:
The pagan cult of the Mother Goddess entered the Roman Catholic Church, represented as the spiritual mother of Christians, or as "the Second Eve," whose "divine" motherhood is responsible for mankind's rebirth, which denies the Biblical concept of rebirth through faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the cross, and His subsequent resurrection.
It was through such concepts that the idea of the divine feminine took root in apostate Christianity, and by which Mary was declared to be the Mother of God. But it is the primordial mystery of generation and childbirth, the appearance of life, and the age-old belief that motherhood is part of a cosmic order upon which the pagan Romanized version of the cult of the theotokos ("God bearer", i.e., "Mother of God", Council of Ephesus, 431 A.D.) rest. This extreme reverence for motherhood and childbirth was the beginning principle of Mary idolatry, a principle which Rome accepted from its pagan forerunners.
Stephen Benko (1993) The Virgin Goddess: Studies in the pagan and Christian roots of Mariology. Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 5
The Lateran Council of 469 under Pope Martin I declared: "if anyone does not confess in harmony with the holy Fathers that the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary is really and truly the mother of God, inasmuch as she in the last times and without semen by the Holy Spirit conceived God the Word himself specially and truthfully, who was born from God the Father before all ages, and she bore him uncorrupted, and after his birth her virginity remaining indissoluble, let him be condemned."
The perpetual virginity of Mary thus became an official teaching of the church: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus. In 1555, the Council of Trent confirmed this dogma in the Constitution of Pope Paul IV known as "Cum Quorundam." Here the pope warns against teaching that "the same blessed Virgin Mary is not truly the Mother of God, and did not remain always in the integrity of virginity, i. e., before birth, in birth, and perpetually after birth."
Stephen Benko (1993) The Virgin Goddess: Studies in the pagan and Christian roots of "Mariology." Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 203
18 times in the Encyclical "Munificentissimus Deus" (1950), Pope Pius XII entitles Mary, "Mother of God".
But never was she the "Mother of God."
Jesus was a divine being before His human birth: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (individual)." (John 1:1).
Jesus' divinity was recognized after the Resurrection: "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
Jesus, during his human incarnation: "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:7-8).
"Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels for the suffering of death." (Hebrews 2:9).
"Jesus Christ is come in the flesh." (1 John 4:2)
Since Jesus was fully man and fully God, during his incarnation, Mary was the mother of the human being, not the mother of "God," for God is from eternity past to eternity future.
The "Lady of the Jesuits" is not actually even an invention of the Jesuits, but an adoption of a pagan conception which cursed Babylon, the prototype of the modern Babylon, centuries before Christ appeared as the son of Mary. Pictures of the mother and child were then worshiped. In the devotional books of the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of God is crowned, sceptred and enthroned as the Queen of heaven. ("She has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth", Pius IX, 1854, but not made "official" till 1954 by Pius XII.)
"I can never," said the Rev. M. Hobart Seymour, in his Evenings with the Roman Catholics, page 254, "forget the shock I received when I first saw in their churches in Italy, the Virgin Mary crowned as Queen of heaven, seated on the same throne with Jesus crowned King of heaven. These were the God-man and God-woman enthroned alike. There was nothing to distinguish the one above the other."
The origin of this idolatry had its root in ancient mythology. Astarte of the Assyrians, Ashtoreth of the Sidonians and Bowaney of the Hindus held the place that Mary occupies in the church of Rome. Greece had her Venus and Rome her Juno. The Diana of the Ephesians was a female, from whose body in every part there seemed to be issuing all the various animals of creation, symbolizing the conception and creation of all things.
The Egyptians on the one hand and the Etrurians on the other had their Isis, the same symbol, a female divinity whom they regarded as "the mother of the gods." Jeremiah describes the Jews who had rebelled against God as making cakes to "the queen of heaven" (Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17), the title given to Juno in the Scandinavian theology. Rome has adopted this element of heathenism, this product of the carnal heart and mind.
In all its essential elements the Roman Etrurian and the Roman Catholic Mary brought from Babylon and adopted by papal Rome are in accord - Roman Catholicism teaches their members to be idolaters. In their churches are pictures of the Virgin that are worshiped because of the wonderful things professedly done by them. In St. Peter's is a picture of the Virgin bearing the inscription that it had miraculously shed blood when struck by a stone. A picture of the mother and child is at Lucca, of which it was affirmed that when some one flung a stone at the face of the child she transferred the child to the other arm and thus saved it from injury. Although this is blind superstition, and at the worst, demonic deception, the Jesuits defend this.
It is claimed by Roman Catholicism that the mother and child sustain the same relation in heaven which they have assigned them on earth, and that Jesus is more the mediator with Mary than Mary is the intercessor with Christ. From Babylon, this worship of the mother and child spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, in Assyria, in China and in Greece and elsewhere, this form of worship suited to the carnal heart gained sway. Circe, the daughter of the sun, taken from Pompeii, has the nimbus or circle surrounding the head in the very same way as the head of the Roman Madonna is at this time adorned in the pictures given of this mistress of Rubens, this lady of the Jesuits. Can any one believe this coincidence accidental?
Idolatry of Mary encourages sinners.
Christ's worship is built on the teachings of the Scriptures of God. To obtain forgiveness of sins through Christ there must be a change of heart, a new birth, a new life. Old things must pass away, all things must become new. Roman Catholics are taught and believe that they can be saved more easily through Mary. Christ requires repentance, Mary devotion. Faith in Christ demands submission to the will of God, reformation of life, and devotion of heart as required by the gospel; while devotion to Mary consists in prayers to her or some external practices in her honor.
Liguori teaches that damnation is impossible where there is devotion to the Virgin. Hence the worship of Mary encourages sinners and multiplies sins. Pio Nono (Pius IX), after decreeing the Immaculate Conception, made the cornerstone of the Romish faith to believe and to teach that salvation is received solely and alone through Mary. It is ours to refute this blasphemous assumption by proclaiming Christ and agreeing with Holy Scripture which proclaims He is the way, the truth, and the life.
When Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ her unique mission ended. The dream that haunted the imagination of the Jewish maiden was fulfilled; Mary had given birth to Jesus. The world worshiped the one being born, not the one who gave birth to the Son of man and the Son of God. They did it then. True believers do it now as they will do it in heaven. Mary will walk with the redeemed in white, however "the assumption of Mary" (bodily into heaven, Pius XII, 1950), is an invention of Roman Catholicism, and it is nothing more.
Mary has not risen and will not rise until the trump shall sound, when she will come forth and cast her crown at the feet of Christ, with the countless throng that no man can number. The idolatry of Mary, the perpetual virginity of the virgin, is a RC lie and calculated to deceive millions, while it is an insult to our Lord and Savior.
It declares that Jesus Christ lacks compassion, is wanting in knowledge and depends for information upon Mary, and is without willingness to help and save the lost.
As a virgin, Mary became the medium through which the ever blessed Christ came into the world. Because of this she was blessed among women. She was not worshiped by those who knew her in the flesh, and she is without any claim to worship at this time, or at any time.
Jesus Christ is the Stone which is being set at naught by Roman Catholicism, but as Peter himself said "Jesus is the head of the corner; neither is there any salvation in any other, for there is none other name given among men whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:11-12) Hence in our hearts and with our lips we glorify Christ, and reject Mary worship idolatry as dishonoring to God and destructive of faith in Christ, and we glorify the one Mediator between God and man (1Titus 2:5), Christ Jesus our Lord, who was crucified, dead and buried, and who rose from the dead and ascended up on high (Ephesians 4:8) and was welcomed into heaven by the multitudes that no man can number and is worshiped by the redeemed as the being by whom and for whom all things were made. (Colossians 1:16)
by Justin Dewey Fulton D.D., "Is it Mary or the Lady of the Jesuits?", Brooklyn, New York, January, 1890.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is Mary the "Mother of God"?
The history of the doctrine:
The pagan cult of the Mother Goddess entered the Roman Catholic Church, represented as the spiritual mother of Christians, or as "the Second Eve," whose "divine" motherhood is responsible for mankind's rebirth, which denies the Biblical concept of rebirth through faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the cross, and His subsequent resurrection.
It was through such concepts that the idea of the divine feminine took root in apostate Christianity, and by which Mary was declared to be the Mother of God. But it is the primordial mystery of generation and childbirth, the appearance of life, and the age-old belief that motherhood is part of a cosmic order upon which the pagan Romanized version of the cult of the theotokos ("God bearer", i.e., "Mother of God", Council of Ephesus, 431 A.D.) rest. This extreme reverence for motherhood and childbirth was the beginning principle of Mary idolatry, a principle which Rome accepted from its pagan forerunners.
Stephen Benko (1993) The Virgin Goddess: Studies in the pagan and Christian roots of Mariology. Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 5
The Lateran Council of 469 under Pope Martin I declared: "if anyone does not confess in harmony with the holy Fathers that the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary is really and truly the mother of God, inasmuch as she in the last times and without semen by the Holy Spirit conceived God the Word himself specially and truthfully, who was born from God the Father before all ages, and she bore him uncorrupted, and after his birth her virginity remaining indissoluble, let him be condemned."
The perpetual virginity of Mary thus became an official teaching of the church: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus. In 1555, the Council of Trent confirmed this dogma in the Constitution of Pope Paul IV known as "Cum Quorundam." Here the pope warns against teaching that "the same blessed Virgin Mary is not truly the Mother of God, and did not remain always in the integrity of virginity, i. e., before birth, in birth, and perpetually after birth."
Stephen Benko (1993) The Virgin Goddess: Studies in the pagan and Christian roots of "Mariology." Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 203
18 times in the Encyclical "Munificentissimus Deus" (1950), Pope Pius XII entitles Mary, "Mother of God".
But never was she the "Mother of God."
Jesus was a divine being before His human birth: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (individual)." (John 1:1).
Jesus' divinity was recognized after the Resurrection: "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
Jesus, during his human incarnation: "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:7-8).
"Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels for the suffering of death." (Hebrews 2:9).
"Jesus Christ is come in the flesh." (1 John 4:2)
Since Jesus was fully man and fully God, during his incarnation, Mary was the mother of the human being, not the mother of "God," for God is from eternity past to eternity future.
Doc110 wrote:
Zemirah, br br Do Catholics Worship Mary? No. So ... (show quote)
Oct 21, 2017 10:51:54 #
Zemirah,
Your constant Evangelical vehement Anti-Catholic ravings, makes you look like a raving Christian religious Nut-Job" Bible thumper . . .
Just admit - It, Zemirah, that your a religious Evangelical bigot and hypocrite, that . . . spews lies and hate. . . .
You have been shown that your facts and opinions are consistently wrong, . . . and contrary to the Old and New Testament Bible's understanding and teaching.
You have been shown that your facts, cherry-picking are misleading dubious anti-Catholic religious information and are totally inaccurate, false and are just plain wrong. . . .
But Zemirah, You never did verified your slanderous attacks as to what Catholic Church does teach's, and "does-not" at the Vatican's Official Website, did you ? (See #1. for the Official Catholic Vatican Website and Christian teaching information.)
This Is Why Do Protestant's Evangelicals Get It Wrong About Mary? The Latin word clarification of: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia.
All you do is to perpetuate your "Evangelical Fallacy-Idiom argument." This Is Why Do Protestant's Evangelicals Get It Wrong About Mary?
a. "Straw-Man", a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument:
b. "Red-Herring", something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.
c. "Ad Hominem" A fallacious argument that attacks not an opponent's beliefs but his motives or character an argument that shows an
opponent's statement to be inconsistent with his other belief.
Yet you provide no facts, to support your religious claims, only continued Fallacy's . . . And Evangelical Anti-Catholic dogmatic inaccuracy's.
1. You have been given the Vatican's Web site, the Catholic Church's Theology, Cannon law, and Magisterial Teaching and Catechism.
a. Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
b. Text, which you access from the index or from the concordances. Footnotes, word lists: are linked to the concordances; lists comprising
every occurrence of a particular word in the text. Each occurrence is displayed in the centre of a short extract from the text;
statistics: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_AIUTO.HTM#concordanze
c. Compendium - Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
e. Code of Canon Law http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
f. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
g. The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching - Catholicism.org www.catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching Catholic doctrine
of the infallibility of the Magisterium in these matters.
2. You have been given numerous Biblical Gospels Verses as to the holiness, importance and humbleness, that Mary the Mother of God gives us Christians, and gives all Christians hope and strength through prayer.
a. Luke 1:46-55 The The Magnificat: Mary’s Hymn of Praise for Our Lord.
www.ourcatholicprayers.com/magnificat.html
b. The Rosary: 10 Reasons Why the Rosary Is Powerful
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2017/01/ten-reasons-rosary-powerful.html
All you have done is twist your Evangel words and your Anti-Catholic Evangelical thinking.
Are you that stupid ? That Mary did-not give birth to Jesus Bar Joseph, The Son of God of the Trinity. Our Lord and Savior.
What demented mind would ever argue this ridicules point. . . .
Only you Zemirah, sadly think this way.
Why have you not gone to your Pastor and or Church to get some religious counseling and or Religious education training ?
Oh I forgot, you are your-own "Pope" on matters of Biblical-teaching, Biblical-authority, and "Self-Religious-Biblical-Interpretation's.
All Christian's, Churches and religious institutions, routinely seek assistance in Religious-Interpretation's of the bible.
But your Evangelical self-richious indignant, "Sola Scriptura interpretation's, and Evangelical Biblical thinking, only speaks to all of Christendom.
Such religious Anti-Catholic correctness, religious bias arrogance, . . . and religious un-Christian Hubris.
a. Hubris, Excessive pride or self-confidence; Arrogance.
b. Hubris, (Greek word) hubris meaning; Insolence.
c. Hubris, (in Greek tragedy) an excess of ambition, pride, etc, ultimately causing the transgressor's ruin.
d. Hubris, (Greek word) Hybris; "wanton violence, insolence, outrage," originally "presumption toward the gods;"
Your constant Evangelical vehement Anti-Catholic ravings, makes you look like a raving Christian religious Nut-Job" Bible thumper . . .
Just admit - It, Zemirah, that your a religious Evangelical bigot and hypocrite, that . . . spews lies and hate. . . .
You have been shown that your facts and opinions are consistently wrong, . . . and contrary to the Old and New Testament Bible's understanding and teaching.
You have been shown that your facts, cherry-picking are misleading dubious anti-Catholic religious information and are totally inaccurate, false and are just plain wrong. . . .
But Zemirah, You never did verified your slanderous attacks as to what Catholic Church does teach's, and "does-not" at the Vatican's Official Website, did you ? (See #1. for the Official Catholic Vatican Website and Christian teaching information.)
This Is Why Do Protestant's Evangelicals Get It Wrong About Mary? The Latin word clarification of: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia.
All you do is to perpetuate your "Evangelical Fallacy-Idiom argument." This Is Why Do Protestant's Evangelicals Get It Wrong About Mary?
a. "Straw-Man", a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument:
b. "Red-Herring", something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.
c. "Ad Hominem" A fallacious argument that attacks not an opponent's beliefs but his motives or character an argument that shows an
opponent's statement to be inconsistent with his other belief.
Yet you provide no facts, to support your religious claims, only continued Fallacy's . . . And Evangelical Anti-Catholic dogmatic inaccuracy's.
1. You have been given the Vatican's Web site, the Catholic Church's Theology, Cannon law, and Magisterial Teaching and Catechism.
a. Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
b. Text, which you access from the index or from the concordances. Footnotes, word lists: are linked to the concordances; lists comprising
every occurrence of a particular word in the text. Each occurrence is displayed in the centre of a short extract from the text;
statistics: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_AIUTO.HTM#concordanze
c. Compendium - Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
e. Code of Canon Law http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
f. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
g. The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching - Catholicism.org www.catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching Catholic doctrine
of the infallibility of the Magisterium in these matters.
2. You have been given numerous Biblical Gospels Verses as to the holiness, importance and humbleness, that Mary the Mother of God gives us Christians, and gives all Christians hope and strength through prayer.
a. Luke 1:46-55 The The Magnificat: Mary’s Hymn of Praise for Our Lord.
www.ourcatholicprayers.com/magnificat.html
b. The Rosary: 10 Reasons Why the Rosary Is Powerful
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2017/01/ten-reasons-rosary-powerful.html
All you have done is twist your Evangel words and your Anti-Catholic Evangelical thinking.
Are you that stupid ? That Mary did-not give birth to Jesus Bar Joseph, The Son of God of the Trinity. Our Lord and Savior.
What demented mind would ever argue this ridicules point. . . .
Only you Zemirah, sadly think this way.
Why have you not gone to your Pastor and or Church to get some religious counseling and or Religious education training ?
Oh I forgot, you are your-own "Pope" on matters of Biblical-teaching, Biblical-authority, and "Self-Religious-Biblical-Interpretation's.
All Christian's, Churches and religious institutions, routinely seek assistance in Religious-Interpretation's of the bible.
But your Evangelical self-richious indignant, "Sola Scriptura interpretation's, and Evangelical Biblical thinking, only speaks to all of Christendom.
Such religious Anti-Catholic correctness, religious bias arrogance, . . . and religious un-Christian Hubris.
a. Hubris, Excessive pride or self-confidence; Arrogance.
b. Hubris, (Greek word) hubris meaning; Insolence.
c. Hubris, (in Greek tragedy) an excess of ambition, pride, etc, ultimately causing the transgressor's ruin.
d. Hubris, (Greek word) Hybris; "wanton violence, insolence, outrage," originally "presumption toward the gods;"
Zemirah wrote:
The Pagan Origin of Mary Worship? Do Catholics Wo... (show quote)
Oct 22, 2017 01:38:35 #
Unable to claim authority from God, the Roman Catholic Institution has used forged documents instead, in a tawdry history completely unrelated to the Christianity of Jesus Christ:
Donation of Constantine
The Donation of Constantine is a well known forged Roman imperial decree by which it was claimed the 4th century emperor Constantine the Great supposedly transferred authority over Rome and the western part of the Roman Empire to the Pope.
The Donation of Constantine (Donatio Constantini, or sometimes just Donatio) is one of the best-known forgeries in European history. It is a medieval document which pretends to have been written in the early fourth century, giving large areas of land and related political power, as well as religious authority, to Pope Sylvester I (in power from 314 – 335) and subsequently, to his successors.
The Pope is also given the Imperial Palace in Rome and the western empire, and the ability to appoint all kings and emperors ruling there. What this meant, (if it had been true), was that the Papacy had the legal right to rule a large area of Italy in a secular fashion, - which it did during the medieval period.
Fraudulently composed within the Roman Catholic church in the 9th - 10th century, it was used, especially in the 13th century, in support of claims of political authority by the papacy.
Origins of the Donation
It is not certain who within the Vatican faked the Donation, but it seems to have been written c. 750 to c.800 in Latin. It might be connected to the coronation of Pippin the Short in 754, or the grand imperial coronation of Charlemagne in 800, but could easily have been to aid Papal attempts to challenge Byzantium’s spiritual and secular interests in Italy.
One of the more popular views has the Donation being created in the mid-eighth century at the behest of Pope Stephen II, in order to aid his negotiations with Pepin.
The idea was that the Pope approved the transfer of the great central European crown from the Merovingian dynasty to the Carolingians, and in return, Pepin would not just give the Papacy the rights to Italian lands, but would actually ‘restore’ what had been given long before by Constantine.
Contents of the Donation
The Donation begins with a narrative: how Sylvester I was supposed to have cured Roman Emperor Constantine of leprosy before the latter gave his support to Rome and the Pope as the heart of the church. It then moves into the granting of rights, a ‘donation’ to the church: the Pope is made the supreme religious ruler of many great capitals – including the newly expanded Constantinople – and given control of all the lands given to the church throughout Constantine’s empire.
History of the Donation
Despite containing such a massive benefit to the papacy, the document appears to have been forgotten in the ninth and tenth centuries, when struggles between Rome and Constantinople raged over who was superior, and when the Donation would have been useful. It wasn’t until Leo IX in the mid-eleventh century that the Donation was quoted as evidence, and from then on it became a common weapon in the struggle between the church and secular rulers to carve up power. Its legitimacy was rarely questioned, although there were dissenting voices.
It had some immediate impact after being written and used by the Roman church, but grew to be heavily influential and of great, though fraudulent, benefit to them in their quest for temporal power over nations, monarchs and peoples, as time went on.
The Renaissance Destroys the Donation
In 1440 a Renaissance Humanist called Valla published a work which broke the Donation down and examined it:
the ‘Discourse on the Forgery of the Alleged Donation of Constantine’. Valla applied the textual criticism and interest in history and classics which grew so prominent in the Renaissance to show, among many criticisms and in an attacking style we might not consider academic these days, that the Donation was written in a later era – for a start, the Latin dated from several centuries after the Donation was supposed to have been written - and thus proved it was not the fourth century.
Once Valla had published his proof, the Donation was increasingly seen as a forgery, and the church couldn’t rely on it. Valla’s attack on the Donation helped promote humanist study, helped undermine the claims of a church you once couldn’t argue with and, in a small way helped lead to the Reformation.
Although publicly exposed as completely phony documents, the theology of authority which Roman Catholicism developed as church doctrine based on this document has survived to this day, and is still claimed valid by the Vatican.
by Robert Wilde Updated October 05, 2017
The Ididorien Decretals
The Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals (or False Decretals) are a set of over one hundred (100) extensive, influential medieval forgeries written by a scholar (or group of scholars) known as Pseudo-Isidore, using the pseudonym of Isidore Mercator, writing in the second quarter of the 9th century.
To defend the position of bishops against metropolitans and secular authorities, they created documents purportedly authored by early popes and council documents.
The Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals and fictitious letters from Clement to Gregory the Great were incorporated in a 9th-century collection of canons purportedly by the pseudonymous Isidore Mercator. Collections of canons were commonly made by adding new matter to old; the forgers of the Pseudo-Isidore collection took as the basis of their work the Hispana Gallica Augustodunensis, interpolating their forgeries with the genuine material to provide credibility by association. The Liber Pontificalis was used as a historical guide, and furnished some subject matter. The Pseudo-Isidorian collection includes an earlier (non-Pseudo-Isidorian) forgery, the Donation of Constantine.
The principal texts are:
The addition of forged material to an earlier, authentic Spanish collection with texts from councils and papal letters from the 4th through the 8th centuries. The Hispana Gallica Augustodunensis' name derives from a manuscript once in the French city of Autun (Latin Augustodunum)
A collection of falsified legislation by Frankish rulers (capitularies), allegedly from the 6th to the 9th centuries, the Capitularia Benedicti Levitae, named for the alleged author of the collection's introduction: deacon (Latin levita) Benedictus. The author alleges that he has completed and updated the collection by the abbot Ansegisus of Fontanelle (died around 833)
A brief collection on criminal procedure, the Capitula Angilramni, allegedly given to Bishop Angilram of Metz by Pope Hadrian I
A collection of about 100 forged papal letters, most allegedly written by Roman bishops during the first three centuries AD. In its preface, the author calls himself bishop Isidorus Mercator (hence the name of the complex). In addition to the forged letters, the collection has a large number of genuine and partially-falsified council texts and papal letters from the 4th to the 8th centuries. The authentic interpolated material derives predominantly from the Hispana Gallica Augustodunensis.
In addition to these four main pieces are other minor forgeries from the same workshop:
The Excerptiones de gestis Chalcedonensis concilii
Some falsifications in the Hamilton 132 manuscript in the Berlin State Library
The Collectio Danieliana
Jesus said, "Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matthew:7:13-14).
Donation of Constantine
The Donation of Constantine is a well known forged Roman imperial decree by which it was claimed the 4th century emperor Constantine the Great supposedly transferred authority over Rome and the western part of the Roman Empire to the Pope.
The Donation of Constantine (Donatio Constantini, or sometimes just Donatio) is one of the best-known forgeries in European history. It is a medieval document which pretends to have been written in the early fourth century, giving large areas of land and related political power, as well as religious authority, to Pope Sylvester I (in power from 314 – 335) and subsequently, to his successors.
The Pope is also given the Imperial Palace in Rome and the western empire, and the ability to appoint all kings and emperors ruling there. What this meant, (if it had been true), was that the Papacy had the legal right to rule a large area of Italy in a secular fashion, - which it did during the medieval period.
Fraudulently composed within the Roman Catholic church in the 9th - 10th century, it was used, especially in the 13th century, in support of claims of political authority by the papacy.
Origins of the Donation
It is not certain who within the Vatican faked the Donation, but it seems to have been written c. 750 to c.800 in Latin. It might be connected to the coronation of Pippin the Short in 754, or the grand imperial coronation of Charlemagne in 800, but could easily have been to aid Papal attempts to challenge Byzantium’s spiritual and secular interests in Italy.
One of the more popular views has the Donation being created in the mid-eighth century at the behest of Pope Stephen II, in order to aid his negotiations with Pepin.
The idea was that the Pope approved the transfer of the great central European crown from the Merovingian dynasty to the Carolingians, and in return, Pepin would not just give the Papacy the rights to Italian lands, but would actually ‘restore’ what had been given long before by Constantine.
Contents of the Donation
The Donation begins with a narrative: how Sylvester I was supposed to have cured Roman Emperor Constantine of leprosy before the latter gave his support to Rome and the Pope as the heart of the church. It then moves into the granting of rights, a ‘donation’ to the church: the Pope is made the supreme religious ruler of many great capitals – including the newly expanded Constantinople – and given control of all the lands given to the church throughout Constantine’s empire.
History of the Donation
Despite containing such a massive benefit to the papacy, the document appears to have been forgotten in the ninth and tenth centuries, when struggles between Rome and Constantinople raged over who was superior, and when the Donation would have been useful. It wasn’t until Leo IX in the mid-eleventh century that the Donation was quoted as evidence, and from then on it became a common weapon in the struggle between the church and secular rulers to carve up power. Its legitimacy was rarely questioned, although there were dissenting voices.
It had some immediate impact after being written and used by the Roman church, but grew to be heavily influential and of great, though fraudulent, benefit to them in their quest for temporal power over nations, monarchs and peoples, as time went on.
The Renaissance Destroys the Donation
In 1440 a Renaissance Humanist called Valla published a work which broke the Donation down and examined it:
the ‘Discourse on the Forgery of the Alleged Donation of Constantine’. Valla applied the textual criticism and interest in history and classics which grew so prominent in the Renaissance to show, among many criticisms and in an attacking style we might not consider academic these days, that the Donation was written in a later era – for a start, the Latin dated from several centuries after the Donation was supposed to have been written - and thus proved it was not the fourth century.
Once Valla had published his proof, the Donation was increasingly seen as a forgery, and the church couldn’t rely on it. Valla’s attack on the Donation helped promote humanist study, helped undermine the claims of a church you once couldn’t argue with and, in a small way helped lead to the Reformation.
Although publicly exposed as completely phony documents, the theology of authority which Roman Catholicism developed as church doctrine based on this document has survived to this day, and is still claimed valid by the Vatican.
by Robert Wilde Updated October 05, 2017
The Ididorien Decretals
The Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals (or False Decretals) are a set of over one hundred (100) extensive, influential medieval forgeries written by a scholar (or group of scholars) known as Pseudo-Isidore, using the pseudonym of Isidore Mercator, writing in the second quarter of the 9th century.
To defend the position of bishops against metropolitans and secular authorities, they created documents purportedly authored by early popes and council documents.
The Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals and fictitious letters from Clement to Gregory the Great were incorporated in a 9th-century collection of canons purportedly by the pseudonymous Isidore Mercator. Collections of canons were commonly made by adding new matter to old; the forgers of the Pseudo-Isidore collection took as the basis of their work the Hispana Gallica Augustodunensis, interpolating their forgeries with the genuine material to provide credibility by association. The Liber Pontificalis was used as a historical guide, and furnished some subject matter. The Pseudo-Isidorian collection includes an earlier (non-Pseudo-Isidorian) forgery, the Donation of Constantine.
The principal texts are:
The addition of forged material to an earlier, authentic Spanish collection with texts from councils and papal letters from the 4th through the 8th centuries. The Hispana Gallica Augustodunensis' name derives from a manuscript once in the French city of Autun (Latin Augustodunum)
A collection of falsified legislation by Frankish rulers (capitularies), allegedly from the 6th to the 9th centuries, the Capitularia Benedicti Levitae, named for the alleged author of the collection's introduction: deacon (Latin levita) Benedictus. The author alleges that he has completed and updated the collection by the abbot Ansegisus of Fontanelle (died around 833)
A brief collection on criminal procedure, the Capitula Angilramni, allegedly given to Bishop Angilram of Metz by Pope Hadrian I
A collection of about 100 forged papal letters, most allegedly written by Roman bishops during the first three centuries AD. In its preface, the author calls himself bishop Isidorus Mercator (hence the name of the complex). In addition to the forged letters, the collection has a large number of genuine and partially-falsified council texts and papal letters from the 4th to the 8th centuries. The authentic interpolated material derives predominantly from the Hispana Gallica Augustodunensis.
In addition to these four main pieces are other minor forgeries from the same workshop:
The Excerptiones de gestis Chalcedonensis concilii
Some falsifications in the Hamilton 132 manuscript in the Berlin State Library
The Collectio Danieliana
Jesus said, "Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matthew:7:13-14).
Doc110 wrote:
Zemirah, br br Your constant Evangelical vehement... (show quote)
Oct 22, 2017 14:00:43 #
Zemirah,
Unless you three: Zemirah, mwdegutis, and dummy-boy can provide your religious affiliation ? Religious denomination ? And religious background ?
There is nothing more to say in this post thread.
I will not argue with a supposed charlatin Christian's, that have independent view's from Jesus's Christ's Orthodoxy religious biblical tenant's, teaching and basic biblical understanding principles by Jesus Christ and the 4 Gospel accounts and Jesus's ministry and the Church that he founded.
The Roman Catholic Magisterium teaching has not changed in One thousand, NineHundred and Eighty-Five years these same tenants of Jesus's Christ's Orthodoxy religious biblical, teaching and basic biblical understanding principles are one and the same.
You three can only quote from Saint Paul's letters to the gentile's, on teaching adherence, encouragement and strict religious formation given by Saint Paul. These letters are to these Christian churches having problems and are only a guidance in these Christian matters.
You three Zemirah, mwdegutis, and dummy-boy all hide in the independent Christian religious shadows, and lies of Evangelical Christian theology.
All three of you are religious cowards . . . .
You three are not priests or pastors. At best you don't even belong to a Christian church laity ?
I will not be at a religious Catholic Christian disadvantage, either you come clean in your Christian theological beliefs, church denomination ? In which, you three, do take advantage, of all the time, by avoidance of any question's asked. You never respond, you only attack, that is not a conversation its a one way Anti-Christian dialogue.
And you three call your selves Christians ? You three are-not adheres of the Christian faith.
You make up your own theological viewpoint all the time. By what authority has God or a church given this authority to you too do this ?
Here is a article that explains; The Gospel Priestly Method, "A Brief History of Priestly Formation."
http://sck.ca/priestly-formation/history-of-priestly-formation/
The simple but comprehensive profile of the first seminary is sketched in the words of the Gospel: “He appointed twelve to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons” (Mark 3:14-15).
This being three full years with the Master, Jesus Christ, would set the pattern for priestly formation in the Western church down through the centuries. The apostle Paul followed the same method of personal accompaniment when he selected St. Timothy whom he “wished to go forth with him,” (Acts 16:3)
As Paul delivered to his newly founded gentile churches the decision reached by the Council of Jerusalem ca. AD 49. Saint Paul also deferred many decisions to "Peter's," Apostle leadership ("send away, send forth) with the same consistent teaching pattern to the Gentiles and their Christian conversion requirements separate from the Jews laws.
Pope Zemirah, You yourself are "Unable" unable to claim authority from God. Your a blasphemer and a religious heretic . . .
What are you even blathering about ? Provide copies ? If you have them?
Your a Evangelical Protestant "nut-case," you spew regurgitated compost information and religious nonsense . . .
You have only danced around these coined contrived anti-Catholic vitriol statements and ridiculous religious Anti-Catholic sentiments.
I really challenge you, to provide "One-False-Teaching" by The Holy Roman Catholic Universal Church that was founded by Jesus Christ, that is written in the Gospel's of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Here are your Christian references to use.
a. Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
b. Text, which you access from the index or from the concordances. Footnotes, word lists: are linked to the concordances;
lists comprising every occurrence of a particular word in the text. Each occurrence is displayed in the centre of a short
extract from the text; statistics: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_AIUTO.HTM#concordanze
c. Compendium - Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-
dott-soc_en.html
e. Code of Canon Law http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
f. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-
dott-soc_en.html
g. The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching - Catholicism.org www.catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching
Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of the Magisterium in these matters.
h. https://www.biblegateway.com And the Douai-Rheims Bible http://www.drbo.org
And the Summa Theologica by St Thomas Aquinas http://www.drbo.org/sum/index.htm
Yes I want to see you dance, over the fires, is it getting hot yet . . . Don't burn your feet over the two-step dance.
The real Christian challenge is on. The 7 biblical Sacraments is a starting point . . . ?
Answer the Question's ?
Unless you three: Zemirah, mwdegutis, and dummy-boy can provide your religious affiliation ? Religious denomination ? And religious background ? Then this religious Christian thread post is over.
I still say, you are all religious cowards, in hiding, and provide lying compost, exhaled against the Catholic Church . . .
Unless you three: Zemirah, mwdegutis, and dummy-boy can provide your religious affiliation ? Religious denomination ? And religious background ?
There is nothing more to say in this post thread.
I will not argue with a supposed charlatin Christian's, that have independent view's from Jesus's Christ's Orthodoxy religious biblical tenant's, teaching and basic biblical understanding principles by Jesus Christ and the 4 Gospel accounts and Jesus's ministry and the Church that he founded.
The Roman Catholic Magisterium teaching has not changed in One thousand, NineHundred and Eighty-Five years these same tenants of Jesus's Christ's Orthodoxy religious biblical, teaching and basic biblical understanding principles are one and the same.
You three can only quote from Saint Paul's letters to the gentile's, on teaching adherence, encouragement and strict religious formation given by Saint Paul. These letters are to these Christian churches having problems and are only a guidance in these Christian matters.
You three Zemirah, mwdegutis, and dummy-boy all hide in the independent Christian religious shadows, and lies of Evangelical Christian theology.
All three of you are religious cowards . . . .
You three are not priests or pastors. At best you don't even belong to a Christian church laity ?
I will not be at a religious Catholic Christian disadvantage, either you come clean in your Christian theological beliefs, church denomination ? In which, you three, do take advantage, of all the time, by avoidance of any question's asked. You never respond, you only attack, that is not a conversation its a one way Anti-Christian dialogue.
And you three call your selves Christians ? You three are-not adheres of the Christian faith.
You make up your own theological viewpoint all the time. By what authority has God or a church given this authority to you too do this ?
Here is a article that explains; The Gospel Priestly Method, "A Brief History of Priestly Formation."
http://sck.ca/priestly-formation/history-of-priestly-formation/
The simple but comprehensive profile of the first seminary is sketched in the words of the Gospel: “He appointed twelve to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons” (Mark 3:14-15).
This being three full years with the Master, Jesus Christ, would set the pattern for priestly formation in the Western church down through the centuries. The apostle Paul followed the same method of personal accompaniment when he selected St. Timothy whom he “wished to go forth with him,” (Acts 16:3)
As Paul delivered to his newly founded gentile churches the decision reached by the Council of Jerusalem ca. AD 49. Saint Paul also deferred many decisions to "Peter's," Apostle leadership ("send away, send forth) with the same consistent teaching pattern to the Gentiles and their Christian conversion requirements separate from the Jews laws.
Pope Zemirah, You yourself are "Unable" unable to claim authority from God. Your a blasphemer and a religious heretic . . .
What are you even blathering about ? Provide copies ? If you have them?
Your a Evangelical Protestant "nut-case," you spew regurgitated compost information and religious nonsense . . .
You have only danced around these coined contrived anti-Catholic vitriol statements and ridiculous religious Anti-Catholic sentiments.
I really challenge you, to provide "One-False-Teaching" by The Holy Roman Catholic Universal Church that was founded by Jesus Christ, that is written in the Gospel's of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Here are your Christian references to use.
a. Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
b. Text, which you access from the index or from the concordances. Footnotes, word lists: are linked to the concordances;
lists comprising every occurrence of a particular word in the text. Each occurrence is displayed in the centre of a short
extract from the text; statistics: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_AIUTO.HTM#concordanze
c. Compendium - Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-
dott-soc_en.html
e. Code of Canon Law http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
f. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-
dott-soc_en.html
g. The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching - Catholicism.org www.catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching
Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of the Magisterium in these matters.
h. https://www.biblegateway.com And the Douai-Rheims Bible http://www.drbo.org
And the Summa Theologica by St Thomas Aquinas http://www.drbo.org/sum/index.htm
Yes I want to see you dance, over the fires, is it getting hot yet . . . Don't burn your feet over the two-step dance.
The real Christian challenge is on. The 7 biblical Sacraments is a starting point . . . ?
Answer the Question's ?
Unless you three: Zemirah, mwdegutis, and dummy-boy can provide your religious affiliation ? Religious denomination ? And religious background ? Then this religious Christian thread post is over.
I still say, you are all religious cowards, in hiding, and provide lying compost, exhaled against the Catholic Church . . .
Zemirah wrote:
Unable to claim authority from God, the Roman Cath... (show quote)
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.