Liberty's Advocate Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA

Seems to me that everyone here is arguing either about whether this Titanic is sinking, whether to torpedo it or let it sink on its own, whether the lifeboats are half empty or half full but not giving any consideration to the decisions that put us on the collision path with the iceberg. We are sacrificing a central concept essential to the furtherance of our freedom by allowing our government (whose record of effectiveness in fulfilling its Prime Directive - securing the Rights of the people - is at a minimum suspect and in many cases disturbingly absent) to snatch control of the ESSENCE of our lives - our good health - and take our rightful obligation to exercise that control away from us.

How so? Consider the fact that the basic Human Rights listed in our Declaration - LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS - are ALL the basis for every one of our individual Rights reserved for the people in the Bill of Rights. In view of that fact, this take-over of the system supplying, controlling the quality of our health care (and therefore the quality of our lives) is a Trojan Horse - a clandestine threat to ALL of our essential freedoms and our very lives.

Those who advocate for this government usurpation with government as the single-payer - or even discuss this as an inevitable eventuality - are giving over the control of their lives to an untrustworthy entity in exchange for the promise of greater efficiency and better care (where does that exist in Socialized Medicine in the world?) at lower cost - demonstrable LIES so far.

This is not just just a complaint without purpose. It has long been my contention that Congress is significantly over-complicating this issue because both parties WANT to have that control over the people. They, after all, are denizens of the swamp and the alligators are hungry for power. The solution is obviously to restore a market-based system with the people exercising their obligatory responsibility for their OWN lives and health and the best/easiest way to initiate the return of control to the patients/people is already partially in place.

Health Savings Accounts, properly constructed and implemented with certain changes, are all the mechanism that is needed to bring about these changes, with the exception of coverage for pre-existing conditions which should be addressed separately. HSA's, which allow individuals to deposit pre-tax income into an account for themselves, for family members and wards for the purpose of providing healthcare, could be expanded to give them Estate Rights and Rights of Survivorship, thus giving absolute ownership and control of the funds deposited to the individual. The individual then can exercise true choices in his/her health care decisions: Can he/she afford the charges their doctor has established for certain treatments? Should he/she shop for services from other Doctors who may be less expensive? Does he/she want/need specialized care?

The funds plus growth from regulated investment/interest would be used to pay for routine office calls, physicals, lab tests, emergency room treatment for injuries and other relatively minor expenses for all family members. The healthier lifestyle one enjoys and the healthier family members remain - the fewer HSA funds are used. The individual would determine the size of the deductible he/she can afford annually, which would accrue from routine medical expenses paid for by the individuals for themselves and family members. HSA funds would also be used to pay the greatly reduced premiums on individual or family Catastrophic Health Care Plans that would result from the necessary government de-regulation that must happen in order to reduce overall costs of health care services. Portability - being able to access health care plans across state lines and take them with you when you move - is also essential.

Getting government OUT of health care is the only way to continue to secure the blessings of Liberty for the people and preserve the freedom of the individual to control his/her life. Otherwise, we will ALL suddenly become painfully aware that our economic and political freedoms are inexorably tied, and we can't afford to do anything about it. Returning that control to the people can start by implementing revised rules for HSA's and letting the market grow as it naturally does when the inevitable competition for those health care dollars - millions and billions of them eventually - being deposited monthly becomes attractive to health insurance companies and begins to reduce the cost of insurance.

Liberty's Advocate Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA

Kevyn

So every other nation in the developed world is a tyranny? Places like Canada, New Zealand all of Western Europe, Scandinavia and Australia. I have been to almost all of those places and they are in no way tyrannies, or communist and many have higher standards of living and lower levels of poverty than we do. Most have demonstrated better health care outcomes for their citizens. We should be emulating them where they are successful.

Liberty's Advocate Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA

Then why do many of their peoples come HERE to seek the most recent innovations in treatment and cures? Why are virtually ALL of them complaining about wait times to even get in to SEE a Doctor, let alone get treatment? The major problem with the "reforms" that are being proposed and those that have been implemented is that every premise and promise used to sell the people on socialized medicine under the ACA was a lie, yet the Democrats - who were solely responsible for passing it "so that we could see what was in it" in the first place - actually expect us to believe what they are saying about it now is the truth. Isn't it funny how even though they say changes need to be made, they can't find a thing wrong with it that cannot be solved by MORE government control?

Tell me please that you are aware of the international globalist's agenda because I can't for the life of me (no pun intended) understand how you could miss the essence of my argument. Do you understand where your Rights come from under OUR system of government - the only one like it in the world? The answer to that question destroys the efficacy of your argument comparing proposed health care in this country to that of any other country in the world.

crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island

Another idiotic assertions from one of the biggest in this venue. The USA has the highest standard of living in the world. We remain top of the heap in spite of the efforts of the mindless socialist/communist Democrats

buffalo Loc: Texas

Why don't you tell your bullshit to the millions of senior and disabled citizens that paid taxes for and now premiums and depend on Medicare?

Why don't you tell your bullshit to the millions of families, especially children, that are poor and depend on Medicaid?

Why don't you tell your bullshit to the millions of families that live paycheck to paycheck how to save for HSAs that are just another tax break for the rich?

Why don't you tell the truth, instead of your bullshit, that wait times here in the US are just as bad, if not worse, than those in civilized countries where health CARE is considered a human right and EVERYONE is guaranteed access to quality health CARE?

Why don't you tell those that cannot afford health CARE in the US because it IS rationed, it is rationed BY COST.

Why don't you tell those here on OPP which private, for profit health INSURANCE corporation you are a paid shill for?

Liberty's Advocate Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA

Simply (and obviously) because, after you just dumped that load of bovine excrement on everyone on OPP, the stench is so bad no one can stand to breathe let alone reply to your B.S. argument. Yours are the politics of greed and envy, my friend, and motivated by shallow feelings rather than deep thought and common sense.

You speak of a (Human) "Right to health care" existing in other countries. It exists HERE, too, as a Human Right because it is derived from our exclusive, unalienable, Natural Right to Life (to control our OWN Life and destiny). But the rest of that Natural, God-given Right includes Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. They are inseparable from our Right to control our own Life, and they were ALL gifts from our Creator, given to us by Him as individuals at the moment of our individual creation. As literally an "Act of God", Man and the governments he establishes have no power over Acts of God and the Natural Laws that support such acts, denying actions on the part of Man and governments that would be in conflict with Natural Law. Ignoring that (those) conflict(s) results in chaos - kind of like the chaos in your confused mind right now. If Health Care is a Human Right (and indeed it is the essence of our quality of life), one still does NOT have the Right - Human or otherwise - to force OTHERS directly or indirectly to PAY FOR YOUR HEALTH CARE, thus making a claim on the Life and resources of others.

The difference between OUR American freedom and that of any other country in the world is, therefore, where our Rights come from. They are not granted by our government. Neither can they be sold, taken away, given away or modified by government or other individuals (the definition of UNALIENABLE as found in Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523 and Bouviers Law Dictionary). They CAN be revoked (by agreement of society) for violating the Natural Rights of another. That is the original justification behind the Death Penalty for capital crimes. If you take the life of another illegally - you pay for it by forfeiting yours. I specified "illegally" because self-defense is a thousands-of-years-old concept transcending ALL cultures world-wide, and the ONLY defense against a charge of murder which, when proven, results in total exoneration of the accused.

You speak from a viewpoint of Liberal MSM bias while I speak from a knowledge of history, an understanding of Rights, common sense and personal experience. Your assertion that wait times here in the USA are just as long as "or worse" than those in other "civilized" countries "where everyone is guaranteed access to quality healthcare". That statement stinks to high heaven and is not just misleading and biased, but is provably false. NO ONE in this country - poor, indigent, illegally here or otherwise - is denied health CARE (as you put it) in this country. That is why no less than six hospitals in California have been bankrupted, primarily by the poor and illegals seeking medical treatment in the Emergency Room - the most expensive treatment you can access.

I AM a Medicare subscriber, Parts A and B. Although my health is excellent, my wife - who was one of the first 100 people in the world to have Open Heart surgery at the Mayo Clinic at age nine over 60 years ago - recently had an event necessitating the replacement of a heart valve (pulmonary). The diagnosis was made on a Monday after a referral from our GP two days before, with confirming tests on Tuesday, another referral to the Mayo Clinic on Wednesday and a call confirming an appointment for tests on the following Monday that same day (Wednesday). Heart surgery was scheduled subsequent to two days of tests for two months later. The surgery (Pig valve installed, tricuspid valve repair at the outflow tract from the right atrium, cryogenic ablation at the outflow tract of the right ventricle to the lungs) was successful and was supposed to be a "five day in and out", but complications in post op from a spontaneous and resistant ventricular fibrillation resulted in a 75 day hospital stay and learning how to breathe and walk again. My wife, according to the surgeons and medical staff attending her, would not have survived the Code Blue let alone the hospitalization anywhere else in the world, thanks to the ECMO (Extra-corporeal Membrane Oxygenation) concept involved in her successful treatment, and pioneered here in the USA. The day she Coded, she was the second of three Code Blue emergencies in that ICU on that day. ALL THREE patients were saved! 100%!! Many hospitals in Europe and Canada are lucky to average 8%.

Anecdotal? Yes, but an anecdote I was personally involved and invested in. YOURS are anecdotal assumptions, not from an evidentiary view but detached, impersonal and assumed facts based on hearsay from agenda-driven sources who want to subjugate (eliminate) your individual Rights for those of the group. What is really disturbing is the willingness with which you and people like you go like lambs to the slaughter without giving it a thought beyond "What will they 'promise' to do for ME?" ... "What can I get from government?" ... "What can I get for nothing?" The price is the soul of your freedom, and your obligation - your responsibility - to exercise your ability to provide for yourself. Then, when you are successful, use your gifts to charity to provide for others. Without the freedom of self-determination, the end result down the road for you and those you care about is tyranny.

By the way ... any financial instability in the Medicare and Medicade programs can be directly attributed to OBAMA's theft of $500,000,000,000 (BILLION) and diverting it to the subsidization of the ACA because his numbers were that far off.

buffalo Loc: Texas

Your wrong, people are denied health CARE every day in the US.

http://www.mediamatters.org/research/2013/09/27/because-fox-asked-here-are-examples-of-people-w/196139

Without Medicare your wife would have been denied health CARE if you couldn't have afforded to pay her medical bills out of your pocket because no health INSURANCE corporation would have touched her with a pre-existing heart condition.

I consider people that have paid into the Medicare System their entire working lives as having provided for themselves.. What is the difference in paying ridiculously high premiums to a private, for profit health INSURANCE corporation that is looking for every angle to deny as many claims as possible and paying a lot less in taxes into a system except those that need health CARE get that health CARE? Private, for profit health INSURANCE corporations only want to "INSURE" healthy people. That is why there is Medicare and Medicaid in the first place.

How is it the "politics of greed and envy, and motivated by shallow feelings rather than deep thought and common sense" to think that every US citizens should have a RIGHT to needed health CARE regardless of their ability to pay? Your a heartless a55h0l3 to think they don't.

Liberty's Advocate Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA

I have no idea how old you are but you sure don't have a very complete education. You see, we weren't born this old. We have had rich and full lives working for a living. My wife worked for the Judicial Branch of state government and I was self-employed for most of my life, having built and sold three businesses. It was in our best interest as a family to subscribe to the group health and life insurance available to my wife and the 54 employees who worked under her in her department. It was much less expensive than an equivalent private sector plan for me as a sole proprietor, or for me and a small number of employees, to subscribe to her group plan instead, as is true for all large group discounts.

Because of her early experience with heart surgery, the medical community is only now learning about the problems sacrificing that valve during the original surgery causes. The same problem today is handled EXACTLY the same way in like congenital cases, but what was happening to her heart all her life was neither known to us nor understood by the Doctors until recently. Had we been aware that regurgitation from the faulty valve was causing her right ventricle to balloon to over twice its normal size during her working years, we would have had it fixed under her group plan. Becoming a ticking time bomb wasn't a very pleasant wake-up call. Without the supplemental plan we elected to carry on her retirement, we would have had plenty of non-covered charges to pay. So, since she had the surgery so many years before she applied and tested normal health-wise during our working years and for the supplement on retirement, we DID have coverage. Our situation was not unique, but your assumption of not being able to get coverage because of a pre-existing condition is also false.

One of my businesses was an insurance agency where I was licensed to write policies in seven lines of insurance, two of which were Health Insurance and Life Insurance.

Your assumption about why we have Medicare and Medcaide is bogus, and is built on lies fed you by pro-government hacks who need to justify their views on the infallibility of bigger government. The government is NEVER as efficient as the private sector in manufacturing goods, purchasing goods or supplying services. Government doesn't have to worry about the bottom line - profit and loss. Have there been insurance companies who have screwed policy holders? Of course there have been. But, when I first heard about how government was proposing to deal with universal health care, I immediately knew (#1) It was unconstitutional and, (#2) since there was no talk of actuaries having any input, it was doomed to failure because they were insisting they could cover pre-existing conditions along with everyone else and it would be cheaper - the average person saving $2500/year.

Your insistence that paying into Medicare and Medicaide produces a better system than a private sector purchase? Bullshit, to quote you. As a comparison (because you will argue not enough experience to compare), lets examine Social Security. If every individual who has had 7.8% of their wages confiscated from each paycheck for 40 working years, had instead invested the same amount in a private sector retirement plan and the stock market, they would each have in excess of $1.3 Million waiting for them on retirement. Many would have in excess of $5 Million. But the non-existent Social Security Trust Fund you've heard about is always in trouble financially. President Lyndon Johnson confiscated the huge pile of money that WAS the Trust Fund and used it to pay for the Viet Nam War, replacing the money with I.O.U.'s. The government puts all those contributions into the General Fund, and has every year since 1965. If a fund manager in the private sector had done that he would deservedly be in jail. Does the name Bernie Maddhoff sound familiar? SSI is now a Ponzi Scheme very similar to the one he went to jail for pushing. Owing our seniors was one of the reasons, as well as the impending retirement of the Baby Boomers.

You've really been worked over by Communists and Socialists in your educational experience, haven't you? Your enmity for insurance companies and the "private sector belies those attitudes and has inculcated a fondness for the "Nanny State" view of how things should be. We can tell you KNOW you are a bit ashamed and are losing the argument because you have descended into ad hominem's and name calling rather than reasoned arguments. Why don't you read a book on Capitalism. I'd suggest Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" for a starter - and put away Marx and Engels ... in the trash where they belong.
Once you get a clue about how freedom is inseparable from personal responsibility for one's life and actions, you may have something of value to contribute.

buffalo Loc: Texas

The boondoggle ACA with its gift of the mandate to the private for profit health INSURANCE corporations is NOT even close to "universal health care". Tying health INSURANCE to one's employer was a bad mistake.

When they ask you why you accept the benefits when you don't agree with them you can finally say "because screw you, that's why."