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Sep 21, 2017 08:53:20   #
pafret Loc: Northeast
 
Zemirah wrote:
Since you asked:

To explain Liberty:

In a republican form of government as we are constitutionally guaranteed at the federal and state levels in the United States, we enjoy a number of enumerated freedoms and an endless number of unspecified ones thanks to the Ninth Amendment ("The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"). These are known as"negative" rights, "freedom to" rather than "freedom from."

Equality:

Although equality is a bedrock concern , it hardly appears in our founding documents, which are the foremost examples of guaranteed freedoms in the history of the world. That is because our Declaration of Independence declares up front that "all men are created equal," and the Fourteenth Amendment declares our "equality before the law." From these we derive the concept of "equality of opportunity," meaning we are each free to do what anyone else does in the public sphere. We don't necessarily enjoy those privileges in the private or civil sectors because we have the freedom to create our own entities in those spheres and to conduct our pursuits as we see fit, including curbing behaviors detrimental to our well being, and that, rather than free speech, precludes us from yelling "Fire!" in a theater, crowded or not."

Justice:

Justice starts with the concept of the rule of law, rather than the rule of man, i.e., a ruler. The rule of law begins in the US with each public officeholder's oath of office taken to uphold the Constitution. It includes the concept that no one is above the law regardless of rank, and also the concept that an unjust law or an unconstitutional law is not a law at all.

All of the foregoing reflect the traditional Conservative and Constitutional world view, the elements of which reconcile.

However, we have a problem:

Now contending with this traditional world view in the US, is the progressive world view, which seeks not republicanism but social democracy as its form of government. We are guaranteed republicanism, with citizens sovereign and a government of enumerated, that is, specific and limited powers, however, Social democracy requires a sovereign government with the people subject, rather than free citizens, and with the political class in possession of the power to determine what is equal, what is just, and what is liberty.

Progressives have long been seriously attempting to change the definitions. For freedoms, they substitute positive freedoms for negative ones. Negative rights enjoin the government from acting; and as a very dangerous game changer, positive rights compel the government to control outcomes. Progressives believe it is the government's place to issue freedom from oppression, freedom from hunger, freedom from ignorance, freedom from ill-health, etc.

In political science, these are also known as privileges, as they are not inalienable rights, but favors government can dispense or take away via legislation. They are not freedoms in any sense, but transfers of wealth from some to others. When Bernie Sanders promises free college or free healthcare, he is sayinghe will take from hose not of his tribe, and reward those who have voted for him.

The progressive concept of equality too differs from the constitution. Rather than equality of opportunity, it is equality of outcome, in essence saying "because the game is rigged, we, the government, will advance all to the finish line."

The concept of justice in the progressive view is social justice, a high-sounding phrase grounded in a number of considerations such as race, gender, sexual-orientation, historical relationship to colonialism, all of which are mutable and subject to higher or lower value at the whim of the political ruling class.

Social democracy is a progressive patchwork of notions that is simply the latest version of the millennia-old "shepherd and flock" model of government. A ruling elite decides what's best for us and does so on terms that cannot possibly be rooted in values derived from our long and clear heritage of legality. Once they achieve power through the use of the promises of social justice, positive freedoms and equal outcomes ... the concept of constitutional freedom is destroyed. Those promises mean whatever the political class decides they mean. All they reconcile to is "power for us, and shame on you."
Since you asked: br br To explain Liberty: br b... (show quote)


Excellent exposition. Well grounded in reality, this Socialist scenario has played out, over and over, in England, Venezuela and other nations. It is the slippery slope to serfdom.

Reply
Sep 21, 2017 09:49:15   #
Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
Zemirah wrote:
Since you asked:

To explain Liberty:

In a republican form of government as we are constitutionally guaranteed at the federal and state levels in the United States, we enjoy a number of enumerated freedoms and an endless number of unspecified ones thanks to the Ninth Amendment ("The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"). These are known as"negative" rights, "freedom to" rather than "freedom from."

Equality:

Although equality is a bedrock concern , it hardly appears in our founding documents, which are the foremost examples of guaranteed freedoms in the history of the world. That is because our Declaration of Independence declares up front that "all men are created equal," and the Fourteenth Amendment declares our "equality before the law." From these we derive the concept of "equality of opportunity," meaning we are each free to do what anyone else does in the public sphere. We don't necessarily enjoy those privileges in the private or civil sectors because we have the freedom to create our own entities in those spheres and to conduct our pursuits as we see fit, including curbing behaviors detrimental to our well being, and that, rather than free speech, precludes us from yelling "Fire!" in a theater, crowded or not."

Justice:

Justice starts with the concept of the rule of law, rather than the rule of man, i.e., a ruler. The rule of law begins in the US with each public officeholder's oath of office taken to uphold the Constitution. It includes the concept that no one is above the law regardless of rank, and also the concept that an unjust law or an unconstitutional law is not a law at all.

All of the foregoing reflect the traditional Conservative and Constitutional world view, the elements of which reconcile.

However, we have a problem:

Now contending with this traditional world view in the US, is the progressive world view, which seeks not republicanism but social democracy as its form of government. We are guaranteed republicanism, with citizens sovereign and a government of enumerated, that is, specific and limited powers, however, Social democracy requires a sovereign government with the people subject, rather than free citizens, and with the political class in possession of the power to determine what is equal, what is just, and what is liberty.

Progressives have long been seriously attempting to change the definitions. For freedoms, they substitute positive freedoms for negative ones. Negative rights enjoin the government from acting; and as a very dangerous game changer, positive rights compel the government to control outcomes. Progressives believe it is the government's place to issue freedom from oppression, freedom from hunger, freedom from ignorance, freedom from ill-health, etc.

In political science, these are also known as privileges, as they are not inalienable rights, but favors government can dispense or take away via legislation. They are not freedoms in any sense, but transfers of wealth from some to others. When Bernie Sanders promises free college or free healthcare, he is sayinghe will take from hose not of his tribe, and reward those who have voted for him.

The progressive concept of equality too differs from the constitution. Rather than equality of opportunity, it is equality of outcome, in essence saying "because the game is rigged, we, the government, will advance all to the finish line."

The concept of justice in the progressive view is social justice, a high-sounding phrase grounded in a number of considerations such as race, gender, sexual-orientation, historical relationship to colonialism, all of which are mutable and subject to higher or lower value at the whim of the political ruling class.

Social democracy is a progressive patchwork of notions that is simply the latest version of the millennia-old "shepherd and flock" model of government. A ruling elite decides what's best for us and does so on terms that cannot possibly be rooted in values derived from our long and clear heritage of legality. Once they achieve power through the use of the promises of social justice, positive freedoms and equal outcomes ... the concept of constitutional freedom is destroyed. Those promises mean whatever the political class decides they mean. All they reconcile to is "power for us, and shame on you."
Since you asked: br br To explain Liberty: br b... (show quote)




Thank you..

Reply
Sep 21, 2017 11:07:57   #
Sicilianthing
 
Zemirah wrote:
Since you asked:

To explain Liberty:

In a republican form of government as we are constitutionally guaranteed at the federal and state levels in the United States, we enjoy a number of enumerated freedoms and an endless number of unspecified ones thanks to the Ninth Amendment ("The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"). These are known as"negative" rights, "freedom to" rather than "freedom from."

Equality:

Although equality is a bedrock concern , it hardly appears in our founding documents, which are the foremost examples of guaranteed freedoms in the history of the world. That is because our Declaration of Independence declares up front that "all men are created equal," and the Fourteenth Amendment declares our "equality before the law." From these we derive the concept of "equality of opportunity," meaning we are each free to do what anyone else does in the public sphere. We don't necessarily enjoy those privileges in the private or civil sectors because we have the freedom to create our own entities in those spheres and to conduct our pursuits as we see fit, including curbing behaviors detrimental to our well being, and that, rather than free speech, precludes us from yelling "Fire!" in a theater, crowded or not."

Justice:

Justice starts with the concept of the rule of law, rather than the rule of man, i.e., a ruler. The rule of law begins in the US with each public officeholder's oath of office taken to uphold the Constitution. It includes the concept that no one is above the law regardless of rank, and also the concept that an unjust law or an unconstitutional law is not a law at all.

All of the foregoing reflect the traditional Conservative and Constitutional world view, the elements of which reconcile.

However, we have a problem:

Now contending with this traditional world view in the US, is the progressive world view, which seeks not republicanism but social democracy as its form of government. We are guaranteed republicanism, with citizens sovereign and a government of enumerated, that is, specific and limited powers, however, Social democracy requires a sovereign government with the people subject, rather than free citizens, and with the political class in possession of the power to determine what is equal, what is just, and what is liberty.

Progressives have long been seriously attempting to change the definitions. For freedoms, they substitute positive freedoms for negative ones. Negative rights enjoin the government from acting; and as a very dangerous game changer, positive rights compel the government to control outcomes. Progressives believe it is the government's place to issue freedom from oppression, freedom from hunger, freedom from ignorance, freedom from ill-health, etc.

In political science, these are also known as privileges, as they are not inalienable rights, but favors government can dispense or take away via legislation. They are not freedoms in any sense, but transfers of wealth from some to others. When Bernie Sanders promises free college or free healthcare, he is sayinghe will take from hose not of his tribe, and reward those who have voted for him.

The progressive concept of equality too differs from the constitution. Rather than equality of opportunity, it is equality of outcome, in essence saying "because the game is rigged, we, the government, will advance all to the finish line."

The concept of justice in the progressive view is social justice, a high-sounding phrase grounded in a number of considerations such as race, gender, sexual-orientation, historical relationship to colonialism, all of which are mutable and subject to higher or lower value at the whim of the political ruling class.

Social democracy is a progressive patchwork of notions that is simply the latest version of the millennia-old "shepherd and flock" model of government. A ruling elite decides what's best for us and does so on terms that cannot possibly be rooted in values derived from our long and clear heritage of legality. Once they achieve power through the use of the promises of social justice, positive freedoms and equal outcomes ... the concept of constitutional freedom is destroyed. Those promises mean whatever the political class decides they mean. All they reconcile to is "power for us, and shame on you."
Since you asked: br br To explain Liberty: br b... (show quote)



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's awesome, you just listed everything Muslims don't participate or believe in... assisted by the Democrats and Communists.

Reply
 
 
Sep 21, 2017 21:01:37   #
Iamdjchrys Loc: Decatur, Texas
 
Zemirah wrote:
Since you asked:

To explain Liberty:

In a republican form of government as we are constitutionally guaranteed at the federal and state levels in the United States, we enjoy a number of enumerated freedoms and an endless number of unspecified ones thanks to the Ninth Amendment ("The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"). These are known as"negative" rights, "freedom to" rather than "freedom from."

Equality:

Although equality is a bedrock concern , it hardly appears in our founding documents, which are the foremost examples of guaranteed freedoms in the history of the world. That is because our Declaration of Independence declares up front that "all men are created equal," and the Fourteenth Amendment declares our "equality before the law." From these we derive the concept of "equality of opportunity," meaning we are each free to do what anyone else does in the public sphere. We don't necessarily enjoy those privileges in the private or civil sectors because we have the freedom to create our own entities in those spheres and to conduct our pursuits as we see fit, including curbing behaviors detrimental to our well being, and that, rather than free speech, precludes us from yelling "Fire!" in a theater, crowded or not."

Justice:

Justice starts with the concept of the rule of law, rather than the rule of man, i.e., a ruler. The rule of law begins in the US with each public officeholder's oath of office taken to uphold the Constitution. It includes the concept that no one is above the law regardless of rank, and also the concept that an unjust law or an unconstitutional law is not a law at all.

All of the foregoing reflect the traditional Conservative and Constitutional world view, the elements of which reconcile.

However, we have a problem:

Now contending with this traditional world view in the US, is the progressive world view, which seeks not republicanism but social democracy as its form of government. We are guaranteed republicanism, with citizens sovereign and a government of enumerated, that is, specific and limited powers, however, Social democracy requires a sovereign government with the people subject, rather than free citizens, and with the political class in possession of the power to determine what is equal, what is just, and what is liberty.

Progressives have long been seriously attempting to change the definitions. For freedoms, they substitute positive freedoms for negative ones. Negative rights enjoin the government from acting; and as a very dangerous game changer, positive rights compel the government to control outcomes. Progressives believe it is the government's place to issue freedom from oppression, freedom from hunger, freedom from ignorance, freedom from ill-health, etc.

In political science, these are also known as privileges, as they are not inalienable rights, but favors government can dispense or take away via legislation. They are not freedoms in any sense, but transfers of wealth from some to others. When Bernie Sanders promises free college or free healthcare, he is sayinghe will take from hose not of his tribe, and reward those who have voted for him.

The progressive concept of equality too differs from the constitution. Rather than equality of opportunity, it is equality of outcome, in essence saying "because the game is rigged, we, the government, will advance all to the finish line."

The concept of justice in the progressive view is social justice, a high-sounding phrase grounded in a number of considerations such as race, gender, sexual-orientation, historical relationship to colonialism, all of which are mutable and subject to higher or lower value at the whim of the political ruling class.

Social democracy is a progressive patchwork of notions that is simply the latest version of the millennia-old "shepherd and flock" model of government. A ruling elite decides what's best for us and does so on terms that cannot possibly be rooted in values derived from our long and clear heritage of legality. Once they achieve power through the use of the promises of social justice, positive freedoms and equal outcomes ... the concept of constitutional freedom is destroyed. Those promises mean whatever the political class decides they mean. All they reconcile to is "power for us, and shame on you."
Since you asked: br br To explain Liberty: br b... (show quote)


Sounds like the Republican party

Reply
Sep 22, 2017 03:50:58   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Typical stereotypical Progressive projectionism.


Iamdjchrys wrote:
Sounds like the Republican party

Reply
Sep 22, 2017 04:00:12   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
pafret wrote:
Excellent exposition. Well grounded in reality, this Socialist scenario has played out, over and over, in England, Venezuela and other nations. It is the slippery slope to serfdom.



Yes, Pafret, it is, most unfortunately, reflective of man's lack of any literal "progressive" ability to further his own cause, and because the majority of always rebellious mankind refuses to seek God, receive Christ and be gifted by God with a new nature, and the indwelling Holy Spirit for guidance, it will always be so.

That too is reality.

Reply
Sep 22, 2017 04:13:20   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That's awesome, you just listed everything Muslims don't participate or believe in... assisted by the Democrats and Communists.



Sicilianthing, that's mankind at large, with rare exception. It's a spiritual battlefield.

God said, "choose life."

Muslims worship a culture of death.

The Progressive Democrats and Communists, spurred on by their worldly wisdom are right behind them.

Reply
 
 
Sep 22, 2017 04:45:21   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
byronglimish wrote:
Thank you..



Thank you for noticing, byronglimish,

I am so enjoying retirement and the mind idling repose that accompanies it, I have to force myself to kick into gear on occasion, and espouse a modicum of God's truth.

Reply
Sep 22, 2017 09:16:28   #
Sicilianthing
 
Zemirah wrote:
Sicilianthing, that's mankind at large, with rare exception. It's a spiritual battlefield.

God said, "choose life."

Muslims worship a culture of death.

The Progressive Democrats and Communists, spurred on by their worldly wisdom are right behind them.



>>>>>>>>>>

Yes and what a sickening shame it all is.... the Conflict is now coming into view.
I think the Democrats are kind'a screwed going forward unless Truump and the Assholes in the GOP give them DACA Amnesty they'll look like Hero's.

Im OUT

NO Deal

No Amnesty
No Soft landing
No compromise
No repackaged bullshit bipartisan plan...

They are all here illegally - Broke the Law and then our Officials Broke the laws again by accommodating them.

Deport
Deport
Deport all 11million of them and the Muslim Trash too - Flat OUT !

Reply
Sep 22, 2017 09:40:51   #
America 1 Loc: South Miami
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>

Yes and what a sickening shame it all is.... the Conflict is now coming into view.
I think the Democrats are kind'a screwed going forward unless Truump and the Assholes in the GOP give them DACA Amnesty they'll look like Hero's.

Im OUT

NO Deal

No Amnesty
No Soft landing
No compromise
No repackaged bullshit bipartisan plan...

They are all here illegally - Broke the Law and then our Officials Broke the laws again by accommodating them.

Deport
Deport
Deport all 11million of them and the Muslim Trash too - Flat OUT !
>>>>>>>>>> br br Ye... (show quote)


Mr. President -
The American people will not support another illegal alien amnesty, no matter what else it includes. The last 7 amnesties were all disasters and this one will be too. At your inauguration last January, you promised to uphold the rule of law, not subvert it. Amnesty is a repudiation of the rule of law and it is an act of treason against the American people.

I am not sure that you fully grasp the magnitude of such a betrayal. The GOP base that chose you as their president against Hillary Clinton and the open-borders GOP candidates are aghast at what you are now proposing. If you go though with this, that base will disappear faster than fog in the morning sun. GOP voters will be deeply ashamed to have voted for a man who now opposes the very principles he supported in November, 2016.

It sounds as though your goal is to be a 1-term president. If that is the case, this is the fastest way to get there.

How many times should the American people have to beg their own government to stop betraying them?

Signed

Reply
Sep 22, 2017 09:57:08   #
Sicilianthing
 
America 1 wrote:
Mr. President -
The American people will not support another illegal alien amnesty, no matter what else it includes. The last 7 amnesties were all disasters and this one will be too. At your inauguration last January, you promised to uphold the rule of law, not subvert it. Amnesty is a repudiation of the rule of law and it is an act of treason against the American people.

I am not sure that you fully grasp the magnitude of such a betrayal. The GOP base that chose you as their president against Hillary Clinton and the open-borders GOP candidates are aghast at what you are now proposing. If you go though with this, that base will disappear faster than fog in the morning sun. GOP voters will be deeply ashamed to have voted for a man who now opposes the very principles he supported in November, 2016.

It sounds as though your goal is to be a 1-term president. If that is the case, this is the fastest way to get there.

How many times should the American people have to beg their own government to stop betraying them?

Signed
Mr. President - br The American people will not s... (show quote)



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank You, great letter, yes I and many have lambasted the Shithouse and Trump over this stupidity of Punting DACA to the GOP... wtf was he thinking ?

It's all Illegal Flat OUT

There is nothing to Discuss

Game Over

Reply
 
 
Sep 22, 2017 14:09:58   #
E
 
Sicilianthing wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>

Yes and what a sickening shame it all is.... the Conflict is now coming into view.
I think the Democrats are kind'a screwed going forward unless Truump and the Assholes in the GOP give them DACA Amnesty they'll look like Hero's.

Im OUT

NO Deal

No Amnesty
No Soft landing
No compromise
No repackaged bullshit bipartisan plan...

They are all here illegally - Broke the Law and then our Officials Broke the laws again by accommodating them.

Deport
Deport
Deport all 11million of them and the Muslim Trash too - Flat OUT !
>>>>>>>>>> br br Ye... (show quote)


With you all the way on that.

Reply
Sep 22, 2017 22:58:58   #
Sicilianthing
 
E wrote:
With you all the way on that.


>>>>>>>

Man we got flanked again on this one, now I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what comes next.

Reply
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