Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

From my readings, Saul/Paul often traveled with others... in fact he traveled with Luke more than anyone else. As for his eyesight, he gave a pretty vivid description of himself. That being bald, bowed legs, and having a problem with now we would suspect as being epilepsy. So, I would imagine that he had both travel companions and hired help. Keep in mind, he was not poor... so, he may have had not only men to carry and look after his animals but would also have women who would tend his tents. Safety seemed to be a concern of Saul/Paul... see 2 Corinthians 11:16 for his complaints ...

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

Curious what's with the G*d thing ?

How could Saul/Paul's teachings predate his encounter on the Road he was a persecuted the Christians so much so that they were scared to meet up with him ,so how in the world could he have had these teachings prior to his meeting with God and being struck blind !

Fraid I have to disagree I find it interesting that there are those that wish for whatever reason try and twist the scriptures to fit their preconceived ideas !

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

I agree that just because some humans say they are led by God doesn't mean that they are by any means !

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

The G*d thing.... well, let me try to explain, it is based on tradition... there is a Jewish law of giving G*d's Hebrew name a high degree of respect and reverence. Second, it is forbidden to erase, destroy, or use His name in anyway that lacks dignity or would defile the name of G*d. And that goes for the "other" names that we attach to Him. One does not know if someone may print out one of these comments and they wind up lining a bird cage or in a trash can. Does this prevent someone from filling in the "o" and defiling His name... of course not, but it would be that individual who broke tradition and law and not my intent. I did not think you would understand if I used HaShem in my comments, so I stayed with a term you could equally relate to, and I intended no disrespect to you.

Back to Saul/Paul, I guess I was not clear when I wrote the "So, really the groundwork for his "ministry" was already in place... " My meaning, he was educated as a Pharisee and knew scripture. He had been part of the tribunal which met to "judge" Hebrews who were accused of wrongdoing, therefore he already had a better understanding of the laws than laypeople. I guess another way of putting this... he obviously had head and probably read correspondence relating to the teachings of Jesus and having been taught by Gamaliel in Jerusalem, he was well prepared to kick off his ministry. I am sorry I was not more clear with my original statement.

Truly, I do not "twist" scriptures and I had no preconceived ideas of Saul/Paul before I began my study into his personality, actions, and written words. Please do keep in mind, this is a discussion and not bible school. I deeply respect your beliefs and have no intentions of persuading you to modify those beliefs. I am sure that your wealth of knowledge about Saul/Paul makes my entry level understanding fit only to be placed in a thimble. So, smooth your feathers, take a deep breath and try to see that I seek knowledge and have no ill intent.

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

Ok now I'm seeing where your coming from , but like I said to me it's more important to understand and hearken to what is written rather than who did the writing !

I actually thought I was discussing your ideas so I fail to see where I injected teaching Bible school .

Looks like I have no idea how to discuss things of the Bible.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

My goodness, are you a Liberal? I did not know that I was dealing with someone who would take every last word as a personal insult. No, I said nothing about you injecting Bible School... I intended that remark as a reminder that we are not having bible school, but rather a discussion, a obiter dictum about a book, its author, which just happens to be included in the bible.

If you truly believe that the author of a book does not matter.... I give you: "Who says I am not under the special protection of God?" "Art is always and everywhere the secret confession, and at the same time the immortal movement of its time." "All of us are guinea pigs in the laboratory of G*d. Humanity is just a work in progress." The first belonged to Hitler, the second to Karl Marx and the last to Tennessee Williams. What makes these men stand apart? Which man would you trust them with your immortal soul? Indeed I can think of several people who made impact on religion and many people were deceived by their teachings... Jim Jones (Jonestown Guyana), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Stewart Traill (The Church of Bible Understanding), Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara (Aum Shinrikyo), Joseph Di Mambro (The Order of the Solar Temple aka Ordre du Temple Solaire), Marshall Heff Applewhit (Heaven’s Gate), Bhagwan Rajneesh (Rajneesh Movement), and Warren Jeffs .... were these people apostles of G*d as they claimed to be? If you had asked any of their followers, they would have said yes they were the "instrument of G*d." My point is, to really understand (in my opinion) what a person is saying, one has to understand where they have been, and where they intend to go.

My examples are awkward, and you may misunderstand, but in my clumsy way I am trying to impress upon you that character, intent, and objectives of authors matter.

My intentions was not to just discuss my "ideas" but to include the opinions as well as the conjectures of others.... Perhaps I should used different words, perhaps conversation or an obiter dictum..... but, I can see that I have failed. Now I find that I am saddled with the need to apologize for having an opinion and to sooth hurt feelings. In the end, you are correct.... at least for yourself, it may not matter to you who wrote the book, but rather the meaning you extract from the book. I wish you well and I thank you for your time and consideration of this thread. I apologize if I inadvertently rubbed you the wrong way or appeared to have questioned your personal belief system. I am confident that you are more than capable of discussing "things of the Bible."

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

Am I a liberal ! ! LOL O my dear them thar are fighting words ! << Kidding joking etc etc LOL

No need to apologize as I have no hurt feelings nor have you rubbed me the wrong way I'm not a snowflake by any means I'm 71 yrs old and have been around the block several times and do not take myself too seriously LOL

Problem with the written word it can be difficult at times for the reader to determine what the tone of the writer is !

God chose and inspired all of the writers of the scriptures and yes it's nice to know who wrote what and there are differences of opinions on who wrote some of the books and others are very plain who wrote them !

Now with writers of today yes it is important to know what makes them tick and what their background is and also what inspired them to write what they have .

bahmer

I knew what the G*d meant to you and why it was there. Even though we declare ourselves to be a Judeo Christian nation we on the Christian side have made little or no attempt to understand the Jewish part. If we as Christians would make a more concerted effort to understand our Jewish brothers and sisters we could go a long way in harmony between the two faiths. In my 74 years I have always observed that the Christians want the Jewish people to bend over backward to see their perspective and yet they are very stiff necked in regards to our Jewish brothers and sisters as to understanding where they are coming from. I also know of a group of Christians at least they claim so that feel that they are not doing enough in there walk with the Lord and have basically forsaken the grace part and are now fully immersed in trying to uphold the Torah in their teachings. So they have given up on grace and placed themselves back under the Law in order to appear as more Christian in their teaching.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I firmly believe that each individual has an obligation to search out facts; however I believe that G*d has given each person (those who have been born and died as well as those yet to be born) the truth and the way to a satisfied life doing His will.

I truly feel sorry for the sect of Christians you mentioned. It must be very difficult for them to try to live under the law. It is one thing for us who were raised under the law to walk in such a narrow path, but it must seem to them to be a burden. In fact, this was an argument that Peter presented when he asked: "Now therefore, why do you test G*d by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers or we were able to bear?" Acts 15:8-10 How interesting that a disciple of Jesus would recognize the hardships a gentile would experience by "converting" to the yoke of the Laws given to Moses, how out of character for Peter to introduce the Law as a "burden." Saul/Paul often referred to the "Laws" as a curse, yoke, burden and yet there are times when he embraced the "Law." One such case is the issue of Timothy and Titus. On one hand Saul/Paul rants against the "Law" as a curse and burden, and simply was beside himself at the notion of circumcising Titus while performing the circumcision of Timothy. Galatians 2:3-5 and Acts 16:1-3. How confusing!

On a side bar, in the book of Revelations, a letter is directed to the church of Pergamum scolding them for tolerating the “teaching of Balaam.” Revelation 2:14. What is referenced is a teaching that one can or actually should compromise their convictions for the sake of popularity, money, sexual gratification, or personal gain. It’s the attitude that treats sin as “no big deal.” In my infancy of understanding the teachings of Saul/Paul, I can not help to make the connections... was the circumcision of Timothy a means of gaining favor? In his own words: “To the Jews I became a Jew in order to win the Jews.” 1 Corinthians 9:20,

I know that you are being patient with me as I sort through the New Testament and your tolerance is so very appreciated as are your prayers. In the end, I am confident that G*d will show me the way..... I just need to keep reading, researching, and praying for His guidance and wisdom. So, thank you .... I can not express how grateful I am to you!

bahmer

This group that I mentioned is not trying to follow the Torah but also all of the Jewish Holy Days as well. They are following the dietary laws as well and worshiping on the Sabbath day as well. I had a friend who is now deceased do to cancer and he and his wife had a music ministry to the people in Israel and I believe that it was the Christian groups in Israel. Anyway he and his wife were taken in by a Jewish family and they learned of Jewish custom by living with this family. He would mention often as to how hard it was to learn all things not to do that he had considered OK all of his life. Things like eating certain fish and lobsters and shellfish crabs and catfish. Of course pork is a big favorite of various European nations like Germany and Poland. I also had Polish friends when I lived in Milwaukee and they loved blood sausage and blood soup. The blood sausage and blood soup was made from goose blood and I of course got to witness the killing of the animals that he and his family did. Of course at 74 it is really to late in life to try and learn a whole new way of life and I am sure that I fail miserably at my age.

4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory

Israel is God's chosen people and he has a plan for them so I don't concern myself about them becoming Christians !

Having said that I'm a staunch supporter of Israel because the whole world revolves around that tiny nation and no one can nor destroy the Israelis !

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I suppose for some, diet would be a big problem. Maintaining a kosher diet limits dining out as well as maintaining a "double kitchen." If nothing else, Jews are very cautious people. If there is a possibility of breaking a Torah Law, best avoid the activity. So, all kosher kitchens have two sets of pots and pans so diary and meat do not come even in contact... now that means; 2 refrigerators, two stoves, and two sinks or dishwashers two sets of dishes with many extra pieces to separate foods, and two sets of silver/cutlery. Plus a set of each that is only used during Passover. That is a minimum. You spoke of food made with blood... now that is a big issue with Jews... even if an egg has a blood spot, all eggs and for some, the entire refrigerator contents are cleaned out (and donated), to include the pan it touched because it is considered "unclean." There is also a second bedroom that is used while during a woman's cycle.... along with a his/her bathroom. A rabbi can not be touched by a woman who is not his wife. Never uttering the "true" name of G*d in public. And the list goes on... (over 600) even some of the terms used as a Christian take on a different meaning for a Jew; like "confession", "heaven" and "hell".

It is for these reasons and others that a gentile is discouraged from conversion. In fact, by Law, a Rabbi is to dissuade casual inquiries, not because it is some kind of "elite" group, but because it is not easy. Only the most sincere will make it through the first stages of the process. A prospective convertee must accept the fact that it is Hashem's Torah that defines what is right and what is wrong, what is spiritual and what is mundane, what elevates a person and what lowers him. Human beings do not make those determinations, and every such decision that a Rabbi makes is based on Torah precedent, i.e., established Jewish Law. If that person succeeds, then they are a Jew.... and that "title" has been used as a curse falling from the lips of others, some may even call them a Zionist because they do not know the difference. This further isolates the Jew from others. So, life can be difficult without the support of family and friends; and they often abandon the convertee.... Frankly, I do not understand why a gentile would convert... if you follow the teaching of Saul/Paul, you have absolutely nothing to worry about... you can sin over and over and it does not matter if you repent. You don't even have the 10 Commandments to limit your lifestyle. Being Jewish, breaking a "Law" has various consequences and breaking the same "Law" twice can get you shunned by family/friends up to a year.

One last thing.... a Jew does not think the gentile will go to hell (the Christian vision) because you are not Jewish. In fact, we do not believe in a Christian view of hell... but that is better for another time and discussion.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

It is too bad you were not at the supper table last evening, your remarks was the topic of conversation. It seems that the group of Christians you referenced are considered called Noahides. Interesting because they date back to the time of Noah and set aside by G*d to be the "righteous gentiles." Even today, if they live in Israel, they are respected. This group has only seven laws, those given to Noah's children after the flood. Those "laws" are basic: 1. Acknowledge that there is only one G‑d who is Infinite and Supreme above all things. Do not replace that Supreme Being with finite idols, be it yourself, or other beings. This command includes such acts as prayer, study and meditation. 2. Respect the Creator. As frustrated and angry as you may be, do not vent it by cursing your Maker. 3. Respect human life. Every human being is an entire world. To save a life is to save that entire world. To destroy a life is to destroy an entire world. To help others live is a corollary of this principle. 4. Respect the institution of marriage. Marriage is a most Divine act. The marriage of a man and a woman is a reflection of the oneness of G‑d and His creation. Disloyalty in marriage is an assault on that oneness. 5. Respect the rights and property of others. Be honest in all your business dealings. By relying on G‑d rather than on our own conniving, we express our trust in Him as the Provider of Life. 6. Respect G‑d's creatures. At first, Man was forbidden to consume meat. After the Great Flood, he was permitted - but with a warning: Do not cause unnecessary suffering to any creature. And, 7. Maintain justice. Justice is G‑d's business, but we are given the charge to lay down necessary laws and enforce them whenever we can. When we right the wrongs of society, we are acting as partners in the act of sustaining the creation.

I did not know about this "movement" so many thanks to you for adding to my education!

bahmer

When my friend was living in Israel he mentioned that they had all of the fast food places there as well Wendy's Burger King and McDonalds bit you couldn't get a cheese burger if I remember correctly because of all of the laws that you have mentioned. I think that you could get a slice of cheese if you were a gentile and then place that on the hamburger yourself but it would never be served as such. Otherwise it would defile all of the kitchen and was prohibitive. Jewish lifestyle unless you are raised Jewish would be very difficult to maintain. My other friend here where I live will think nothing of going into a restaurant and ordering a hamburger patty with his eggs but neglecting the fact that the hamburger patty was cooked on the same grill where they cooked pork sausage and bacon as well that same morning. Weird. Any way it is more of a show than actually following the Torah and all of the dietary laws as I understand them. But if it makes them happy I guess that is what counts for him. The reason that this comes up is that I saw him and his wife in a restaurant and they invited me to eat with them. I ordered sausage patties and eggs over easy and he ordered a hamburger patty with his eggs. I know the owner of this restaurant and he isn't Jewish and I am sure that he didn't have duplicates of everything the kitchen to keep everything kosher. In fact I am sure that they have only one refrigerator and one freezer and the one grill. A lot of the food was deep fried and I am not sure what type of oil that they use either. Oh well so much for want a bees right.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

You do know that there are different denominations of Jews like there are different denominations of Christians. And how they approach the Laws and customs are as different as how Christians approach their laws. There are Reform, Conservative, Orthodox and Reconstructionist. The Orthodox population is quite diverse, with numerous subgroups, such as ultra-Orthodox or haredi Orthodox (a group that includes Hasidic Jews), centrist Orthodox and Modern Orthodox. It is possible that your friend is a Reformed Jew; in their system they are very relaxed from services in English to eating just about anything that you put on the table. They say that they have shed "obsolete" practices. So, we call them Jew-lite. Conservatives, well they professes obedience to halakhah (Jewish law), but at the same time is open to making normative adjustments in response to societal changes. For example, they do not have prohibitions on interracial marriage and many do not have strict diet codes. Then you come to the Orthodox and they too vary from the very strict in the ultra-Orthodox; all the laws must be obeyed down to not carrying anything in your pocket when you go out for a walk on the Sabbath to arranged marriage. And the Orthodox to include the Hasidic... all laws are to be obeyed without the stiff punishments.... like death for blasphemy. (Death does not include killing a person... it is a cutting the person out of the "family" of Jews... more on that at a later time). And then there is the odd ones, the Reconstructionist.... they are to us like Pauline are to Christians. They think of themselves as a "civilization" rather than a "nation." As a "civilization" they claim they are in a state of constantly evolving, and it was the goal of Jewish thinkers at any given time to interpret Judaism in the light of contemporary life and thought without abandoning its traditional values.

As you can see, Jews of America are a mixed bag just as a Roman Catholic and a Southern Baptist are Christians but their "rules" are significantly different.

Hope this helps.