O.K., take this whole thread as an example. It was stated that Jeff Foxworthy wrote this group of jokes related to President Obama's Administration, yet that is a lie, plain and simple. Then you have the nerve to accuse me of being some blind fool. Mr. Foxworthy has publically stated he did not make the statements. Who is being the blind fool exactly?

The t***h doesn't hurt me at all, except I'm at a loss to understand how so many of you accept this sort of endless nonsense as true, all the while maintaining that people like myself who actually do some fact checking are blind fools.

When confronted with the t***h that what they supported is a lie, you then divert to some other nonsense and try to dismiss me as some fool from another planet.

You come off as a childish bully, trying to intimidate me with your dismissive rhetoric. I'm not some kid, and I have been down this road far too many times. Put up, or shut up...find something accurate to say, or just keep your juvenile insults to yourself, or save them for some timid individual who is intimidated by such attacks.

I joined this forum to have respectful dialog about important issues, not just a bunch of h**eful name calling. If you read my posts, you will see that I am not one to just make baseless accusations or comments. l expect others to act accordingly.

It's time for us to show leadership. We need to let our elected officials know in a clear, yet respectful manner, that we are tired of the nonsense. That we expect them to start acting like adults and quit the senseless bickering over one manufactured crisis after another. .

We are at a critical time in our history. The world has never been as competitive. If we hope to regain the leadership position we grew up with, we have to find a way to get people to stop the posturing, and start working together to make this the Country we grew up loving and being proud of.

The endless attacks against our own people is k*****g any chance we have of winning this race for our very survival.

Double post

BigMike,

Platinum is used in a type of fuel cell called a PEM fuel cell. They have made a good bit of progress in reducing the amount required. Perhaps more importantly, a lot of work is being done to find other, less expensive catalysts to replace Platinum. Graphene is one such new development and holds much promise in many different areas.

A lot of work is indeed being done with organic means to extract hydrogen from water. You can even make a fairly simple system using plastic bags with water and algae, assuming you aren't in a freezing environment.

Hydrogen is easily in our reach if we could find a way beyond the senseless bickering over nonsense to keep us distracted from the things that need to be done, we could get this thing done!

We are at the point where all that is really needed is to simply make the commitment to invest in the necessary infrastructure.

This is the sort of national construction project that could put many to work for years. A far more beneficial project than the Keystone pipeline, that benefits only a very few while posing serious risk to a huge number of us.

When so called "conservatives" get over their deficit boogeyman approach and admit that our best bet at ending deficit spending is to grow our way out, and a large investment in our national infrastructure, including a hydrogen distribution network, is the sort of thing to kick start a long term recovery.

I don't see that I have insulted anyone. You apparently wouldn't know what the t***h was if it bit you. I made no mistake with my v**e and I'm s**k of seeing people like you make your baseless accusations and act as if the v**es of the majority of us doesn't matter, just because it apparently wasn't the way you v**ed.

President Obama, (hard for you to write that, isn't it)...easily won e******n twice by an actual majority, something that hasn't happened in quite some time. But your blind hatred makes you gullible to fall for every nonsensical thing you hear parroted by right wing pundits.

I don't see that I have insulted anyone. You apparently wouldn't know what the t***h was if it bit you. I made no mistake with my v**e and I'm s**k of seeing people like you make your baseless accusations and act as if the v**es of the majority of us doesn't matter, just because it apparently wasn't the way you v**ed.

President Obama, (hard for you to write that, isn't it)...easily won e******n twice by an actual majority, something that hasn't happened in quite some time. But your blind hatred makes you gullible to fall for every nonsensical thing you hear parroted by right wing pundits.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

What I'm saying is that your focus on such trivial statements are ridiculous. Yes, technically you could call them lies, or as you seem to prefer LIES, but the t***h is that for the vast majority of us, the statements are quite factual. Even the majority of those who can't keep a previous policy, can in fact keep their doctor, if they spend a little time to check the coverage of any new policy they are considering. It is also irrelevant to the vast majority of the population, which receive their insurance through their employers.

But go ahead and think you are upset over this horrible lie, oh, pardon me, I mean LIE that the President tried to dupe us all with... Or, you could just grow up and actually behave like an adult...

The technology for a hydrogen economy is already here, we mostly need the infrastructure to distribute it.

In Europe, where they are far ahead of us in creating this distribution infrastructure, they inject hydrogen into the natural gas pipelines. Up to a 15% concentration can be burned with no other changes.

We also need to find better means to produce hydrogen, since today we make it primarily from petroleum, ironically.

Yes, yes... such horrible lies... costing us so many lives... because so many expected suddenly health care would change into something it had never been before.

We were always able to keep our policies every year and keep our doctors every time our policies changed (oops, I guess yours never did). Sure wish we had that pillar of honesty we had with the last Administration back... LOL...

You people would be funny, if your distorted views weren't so destructive and childish.

And what do you see when you look in the mirror?

What is wrong with you people?

Yes, of course...

Except Mr. Foxworthy never made those remarks!

This is old and he has clearly stated he did not. Of course you would never check the validity of anything as long as it met your objective of spreading misinformation.

But this is so typical of a Country founded by geniuses, but occupied by i***ts...

This is a great thread and the sort of thing I hoped to find on this site. I've done a good bit of research on the subject and would like to correct a couple of points stated previously, while also adding a few points.

First, it was previously stated how explosive hydrogen is which makes it inherently dangerous. This is simply not true. Hydrogen is certainly flammable, but it is far safer than many flammable products. The conditions to create an explosion are not that easily created. It is extremely difficult to contain in the first place, and requires a proper gas to oxygen ratio in a sufficient containment vessel, and a subsequent ignition source to create an explosion. While this can certainly be achieved by anyone who wants to do so, it is not likely to happen by accident. Most "fears" and beliefs concerning hydrogen are holdovers from the Hindenburg disaster.

Because of it's extremely low density and light weight, it will typically dissipate quickly in the event of a leak or rupture. It is not toxic, and only poses a threat to living organisms if it is in such a high density as to suffocate it, due to lack of oxygen. Since it will pass through most walls and ceilings, there is little chance of that actually happening. It also requires a higher ignition temperature than most hydrocarbon fuels such as natural gas or gasoline, both of which are heavier than air and will remain at ground level, posing a far greater threat to living organisms. Escaped hydrogen will in fact actually leave the atmosphere, achieving escape velocity. This is why there is virtually no free hydrogen in the atmosphere. I've never heard of it causing any damage to the ozone layer, but I suppose that might be possible.

Secondly, a common joke in the industry is that hydrogen and even fusion are clearly the energy of the future...

...and always will be...LOL...

There are many efforts under way to produce hydrogen more economically, and many are very promising indeed. Several involve solar energy to achieve large scale hydrogen production, but the range of ideas is quite large.

Thirdly, production of hydrogen by electrolysis is fairly efficient, and provides a means to store excess alternative energy sources for utilization when the alternative energy source is not producing energy for immediate consumption. The biggest hurdle in this regard is containment of this generated hydrogen. For large energy stores, it would most likely require storage as a liquid. Some have suggested underground storage in salt domes, but this would seem to be problematic to me.

Fourthly, many have mentioned we really require an all in approach. Alternative energy for residential use can go a long way to resolve a significant amount of energy production. Moving to a distributed model for residential use holds many benefits. While the one gentleman stated a 25 year ROI for his system, he was talking about a complete off grid system with storage and backup generation capability.

Depending on where you live, and what you want to achieve, the ROI can be far shorter. I for instance live in a State that offers no direct subsidy for alternative energy systems, but the federal government subsidy is currently 30% everywhere, and many States and communities offer additional subsidies. Many utilities also offer subsidies and "net" metering, where you only pay the difference between what you use on a monthly basis vs. what you generate. By staying connected to the grid, backup isn't really required, but is a nice feature, if you can afford it. Note that ironically, without backup, should the utility fail, solar energy systems are required to shut down during a utility failure to protect workers trying to restore service!

It would seem to me, that the installation of an automatic t***sfer switch that disconnected your system from the grid would alleviate the problem and that in fact is how a system with backup generation gets around this issue.

In my case with only federal subsidies, a ground mounted system had a payback of 10 years. But also increased my property value by more than the system cost immediately, so it's a pretty safe investment regardless. In States/cities/communities that offer additional subsidies, the ROI can be very short! In States that offer more robust net metering policies, you can even earn income from excess generation!

So, overall we need to invest in research to solve the issues with fusion production, get past the silly objections to offshore wind production (the wind blows offshore primarily during the daytime offshore vs. nighttime for land based systems), and invest in a distribution system for hydrogen to overcome storage issues.

As for whether or not this involves private investment, the sad reality is that few private investors have the patience to make long term investments of the size required to do the basic research to solve things like fusion. While it was the phone system that actually brought the t***sistor to market, that was during the time they were essentially a monopoly, and that boat has sailed, so to speak...

The energy companies are indeed investing heavily on alternative energy, because they want to be the ones who continue to profit on energy production regardless of the source.

The final comment I'll make for now concerns the perception of the low cost of current hydrocarbons. Their costs are far higher than most understand. The real costs are complex, and involves many, many factors, including an enormous amount of money spent on a military presence around the world. The increased level of destruction of property from violent weather, and the unknown cost of human life and health from the production, distribution and use of them.

The end result is that we already heavily subsidize hydrocarbons today through taxes and higher costs of food, insurance and health care. Almost no one considers this when they talk about alternative energy driving our economy in the ground. Alternative energy will be a huge economic benefit to the country who masters it!!!

90-130 million will lose their insurance??? Where on earth did you get that information from?