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Feb 21, 2019 05:14:04   #
And yet you judge

maximus wrote:
I agree with you again 100%.
 
Feb 21, 2019 00:17:45   #
maximus,

There has always been corruption, and reforms.

From the New Testament Bible, gospels, acts, and all the Letters and epistles to our present age.

Protestant as well as Catholic.

It is MAN who is CORRUPT's and not Jesus's Church.

maximus wrote:


May I just step in here?

The word protestant derives from those who protested the Bible being read in Latin, a language that most people didn't understand. Also at least in the middle ages, the RCC got rich off it's parishioners.

Royality used the church to get rid of their unmarrirable daughters as nuns and were pretty much just slaves.

Henry the VIII found out that the Cardinal Thomas Wosley had a better house than he did and took it away him, so he was doing alright.

(This is from a book I have and if you want, I'll look this up)

These are historical facts as far as I know.

The printing press helped bring about the protestants, because they could read the words for themselves, although many could still not read in any language, they DID understand spoken English.

The middle ages were a time of corruption for the RCC, and Wosley was a prime example.

I posted not to upset you but to balance your views as you seem to have particular hatred for protestants, and they only came on the scene after acknowledging the corruption that they saw.

There was more to the story but basically, this is it.
br br May I just step in here? br br The word ... (show quote)
Feb 21, 2019 00:12:59   #
Who are you to even Judge me,

Mad, you're grasping at straws in your delusional comments.

And how are you to Judge me on God's Salvation.

Again you're grasping at straws.

Sola Scriptura, a Man Made Theology.....

The Origin of "Sola Scriptura"?
https://scecclesia.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/the-origin-of-sola-scriptura/

maximus wrote:


Doc, Although you are mad at me and ignoring me from another thread, I have to say I agree with your post 100%.

Glad to see one who is NOT living by their own version of salvation, who respects God's plan.
Feb 21, 2019 00:07:32   #
Listen Simpleton Texacan,

Think and learn Christian history and Catholic Church history.

Stop being moronic, in you're Protestant, Man-Made belief of Sola Scriptura... ("The Bible Only") From Martin Luther.

Here is your Protestant Argument;

A. Protestant Sola scriptura meant, "Rejecting the infallible authority given to the Catholic Church magisterium to interpret both oral, written scripture and tradition.

B. The Liturgy is something the Catholic Church has adopted and adapted from the synagogue because of its benefit to the good order of the church, and good order in the church is a good reason to do something.

C. You can say then our position is, if it contradicts the Bible we ain’t doing it.

Similarly The Catholic Church.

Sola scriptura does not reject church at all, or that church grows and develops. It rejects, rather, those things that have come along with the church’s growth and development that contradict what’s in the Bible.

D. One such would be some of the Roman church’s ideas as to the nature and extent of its authority. And, if these are indeed contrary to Scripture, one does not reject the church, but in fact upholds it, to deny them.

E. You can say then our position is, the church has said these are the books and no other on which you can rely and on whose truths the church is built.

F. Then it quit relying on them and its truths as the norm for all else, and we simply recall the Catholic Church to fidelity to its own book e.g.the Bible, that it declares faithful to God’s truth.

I. Sola scriptura does not mean “Only Scripture”.
https://scecclesia.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/the-origin-of-sola-scriptura/

It is a type of construction in Latin called an "Ablative of means," a way to state the means by which an agent does an action. It is translated “by Scripture alone”.
2. It does not mean, if you have Scripture you don’t need anything else.
3. It also does not mean. If it ain’t in the Bible we ain’t doing it.
4. There are those later in the Reformation to whom it does mean that, and many in our time likewise, and we reject that.

Scripture teaches us the value of Tradition; and from Tradition we learn that all the Church’s dogmas are to be founded in the Divine Words. It’s a quite reciprocal relationship.

For 502 years Protestant sola Scriptura however, does ignore and rejects Catholic Christian history, Catholic Oral and Written tradition's, when seeking to understand or interpreting the Bible.

We have actual words, verses and books of the spoken word, of Jesus Christ's instructions, teachings, the Apostles instructions and teachings... and the Early Church Fathers instructions and teaching which has not changed from the orodox Christian Catholic Church for 1,987 years.


TexaCan, what is wrong with you ?

You do not know your Ancient Biblical Catholic Church History...


For me, that has to be the most "Religious ignorant Christian baptist statement... I've ever heard in my life... from a baptist person of Faith.

Quote TexaCan; If we stole the Sola Scriptura from your Catholic Church and it is Man-Made as you claim.

Go to go this website, The Catholic Church Fathers. What Jesus, the 12 Apostles and the Church Fathers Taught and is Recorded:
https://www.churchfathers.org/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass/

According to Church tradition, the history of the Catholic Church begins with Jesus Christ and his teachings (c. 4 BC – AD 30-33) and Jesus's Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus, and who never taught "Sola Scriptura..."

According to Catholic tradition, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. The New Testament aren a record of Jesus' activities Instructions and teaching, his appointment of the twelve Apostles, and his instructions to them to continue his work, and who never taught "Sola Scriptura"... Nor did the 12 Apostles and the Early Church Patristic Fathers, never taught "Sola Scriptura..."

The Christian Old Testament Bible overlaps with the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Septuagint; the Hebrew Bible is known in Judaism as the Tanakh. The Christian Catholic New Testament Bible is a collection of writings by early Christians, the Gospels, and Apostle letters is believed to be mostly Jewish disciples of Christ, written in first-century Koine Greek, and who never taught "Sola Scriptura".... Nor was taught by the Ancient Catholic Church."

It is recorded in Matthew 16:18-19 that Jesus first founded his Universal Catholic Church, and gave authority, and the "Keys to his Church given to Peter and which is binding on Earth and Heaven." That the disciples of Jesus Christ were first called Christians Acts of the Apostles 11:19-26.

Jesus promised Peter in the "Rock of My Church," Jesus's dialogue in Matthew 16:18 a special position in the Church. He is traditionally counted as the first Bishop of Rome‍—‌or pope‍—‌and also by Eastern Christian tradition as the first Patriarch of Antioch.

The Catholic Church has traditionally claimed a unique leadership role for the Apostle Peter, believed to have been named by Jesus as head of the Apostles and as a focus of their unity, who became the first Bishop of Rome, and whose successors inherited "Apostolic Succession," the role and becoming the leaders of the worldwide Universal-Catholic Church.

The history of Christianity concerns the Christian religion, Christendom, and the Church with its various denominations, from the 1st century to the present. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity spread to all of Europe in the Middle Ages, and who never taught "Sola Scriptura...."

The Christian Church originated in Roman Judea in the first century AD, founded on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who first gathered 12 disciples. Those disciples later became known as "Christians"; according to Scripture, Jesus commanded them to spread his teachings to all the world, and who never taught "Sola Scriptura...."

Who founded Christianity? Ancient (before AD 500)

Name Religious tradition founded Life of founder
Jesus (and the Twelve Apostles) Catholic Christianity 4 B.C, – 30/33 A.D.
Paul the Apostle Pauline Catholic Christianity 46 A.D. - martyrdom 67 A.D.
James the Just Catholic Jewish Christianity 33 A.D - martyrdom 62 or 69


What are the four pillars of the Catholic Church are: "Creed, Prayer, Sacraments, Morality." The Catechism of the Catholic Church is divided into four sections or parts.

Christian Catholic Dogmas, regulate the language, how the truth of the resurrection is to be believed and communicated. One dogma is only a small part of the Christian faith, from which it derives its meaning. A dogma of the Catholic Church is defined as "a truth revealed by God, which the magisterium of the Church declared as binding."

The Catholic Church bases all of its infallible teachings on sacred tradition and sacred scripture. ... A teaching of ordinary and universal Magisterium is a teaching of which all bishops (including the Pope's, Biblical Teaching) universally agree on and is also considered infallible.

Scripture and Tradition in the teaching of the Catholic Church
https://scecclesia.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/scripture-and-tradition-in-the-teaching-of-the-catholic-church/

The Four Marks of the Catholic Church, also known as the Attributes of the Church, is a term describing four distinctive adjectives—"One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic" — of oral and written Tradition Christian ecclesiology as expressed in the Nicene - Constantinopolitan Creed completed at the First Council of Constantinople in AD 381:

Catholic Church. The Catholic Church sees the Mass or Eucharist as "the source and summit of the Christian life", to which the other sacraments are oriented. The Catholic Church believes that the Mass is exactly the same sacrifice that Jesus Christ offered on the Cross at Calvary.

The Catechism is part of the Catholic Church's ordinary teaching authority. ... Its doctrinal authority is proper to the Catholic Church's, papal Magisterium… The Catechism presents Catholic doctrine as an organic whole and as it is related to Christ who is the center of the Catholic Church.

The Definition of Catechism. 1 : oral instruction. 2 : a manual for catechizing: Specifically: A summary of religious doctrine often in the form of questions and answers. 3a : a set of formal questions put as a test.

The Roman Catechism (or Catechism of the Council of Trent, published 1566) was commissioned during the Catholic Counter-Reformation by the Council of Trent, to expound doctrine and to improve the theological understanding of the clergy.

A Catechism or Christian Doctrine. Laurence Vaux, B.D., a Catholic martyr, first published his catechism, also called The Catechism of Laurence Vaux or Vaux's Catechism, in Louvain in 1567.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (Latin: Catechismus Catholicae Ecclesiae; commonly called the Catechism or the CCC) is a catechism promulgated for the Catholic Church by Pope John Paul II in 1992. It sums up, in book form, the beliefs of the Catholic faithful.

Did the Early Christians Subscribe to Sola Scriptura? A Protestant Misunderstanding
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/did-the-early-christians-subscribe-to-sola-scriptura

The issue of authority remains the most fundamental source of division between Catholics and Protestants.

Mainline Protestants (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc.) do not reject tradition or ecclesial authority;

Indeed, they have a high regard for both and believe that Scripture can only be interpreted correctly within the context of the creeds of the early Church.

The Four Catholic Creeds
Ecumenical and historic Christian creeds:
Creed Date Accepted by
1. Creed of Nicaea A.D. 325 Ecumenical Church
2. Nicene Creed (Nicaea-Constantinopolitan Creed), A.D. 381 Ecumenical Church
3. Chalcedonian Creed A.D. 451 Council of Chalcedon
4. Athanasian Creed A.D. 500 Western Christian denominations


However, Protestants believe that only Scripture, is exempt from the possibility of teaching error.

Consequently, when the Protestant senses a conflict between Scripture and the authoritative teachings of a church, he feels a moral obligation to go with (his interpretation of) Scripture.

Although sola Scriptura is difficult to define rigorously, this obligation is an essential aspect of the doctrine.


Learn something instead of spewing lies...

Sola Scriptura, is a Protestant "MAN-MADE - THEOLOGY."

“Faith in Scripture" rises or falls with only the faith in the Son Jesus Christ, The Father and the Holy Spirit.”

Revealed from heaven, the gospel message itself (Christ as the central content of Scripture) is as much the basis for the Catholic Church's "Oral Tradition and Written Tradition for the Bible’s authority, as the fact that it comes from the Father through the inspiration of the Spirit.


So, TexaCan,

1. Sola Scriptura. It is not found in the "Bible," scripturally...

2. Nor did Jesus Christ teach sola Scriptura, because the Bible was not codified and completed until A.D. 397 from the Catholic Church's, Oral and Written Traditions.

3. The Apostles did not teach sola Scriptura, and pass down Sola Scriptura.

4. Nor did the Early Church Patristic Fathers Teach sola Scriptura and pass down Sola Scriptura.

5. Nor has the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ ever taught sola Scriptura.

6. Matrin Luther, made-up and invented sola Scriptura, because Sola Scriptura is not found in the "Bible," scripturally...

Martin Luther invented Sola-Scriptura, "Protestant self-Biblical-Interpertation."
Causing 47,000 thousand divisional and sectarian Protestant church's and 700,000,000 million, self-biblical-interpreting-mini-Pope's... on what the Bible says and teaches Christianity by Jesus Christ...


Matrin Luther, and then was purveyor of Sola-Scriptura and this theology was accepted by other Protestant Reformation leaders... for 502 years...


TexaCan wrote:
If we stole the Sola Scriptura from your Catholic Church and it is Man-Made as you claim...........
Then your Catholic Bible is Man-Made! EXPLAIN this! These are your words, your accusations!
Feb 20, 2019 21:32:50   #
Wow, Rose...

ROSE you are "Stacking the Deck" - With your continued Anti-Catholic Historical Church Fallacy Lies" from your Berean Church.[/b]

Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;

I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book:

If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Warning... COMPOST Alert..., COMPOST Alert..., COMPOST Alert..., COMPOST Alert..., COMPOST Alert...


ROSE42, is fabricating "LIE's" and should be held accountable for "LYING."

As well as her "Lying" Berean Church for "POSTING" Anti-Catholic and anti-Christian "PROPAGANDA" on the OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum !!!



Rose you are the "Purveyor of False Christian HISTORY, TRUTH" and actual Documents that are common knowledge had you done the research... you would not look so foolish.

As I've continued to say to you, you look like a "Child," and continue to look "Childish."

1. All OPP people on this post thread, "Please Read" the Wikipedia encyclopedia information on this website which is the Christian consensus on the "Development of the Christian Biblical Canon" from the Catholic Church.

a. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon.

b. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

Had you read even read the Wikipedia encyclopedia post.

"Development of the Christian Biblical Canon"

From the Catholic Church you now have ridiculed yourself, you would have shut-up, and then not look like a major Berean Church SIMPLETON.............


Rose you are in serious need for "Help for LYING," and you're "CONTINUING TO LYING, ON THE OPP FORUM about CHRISTIANS and LYING about the Catholic Church.

This is so... SHAMEFUL... SHAMEFUL... SHAMEFUL... SHAMEFUL... SHAMEFUL... SHAMEFUL ! ! !



Danger... Danger... LYING COMPOST ALERT,... LYING COMPOST ALERT,... LYING COMPOST ALERT, !!!


Decretum Gelasianum and damasine
The Decree of the Council of Rome (AD 382) on the Canon of Scripture during the reign of Pope Damasus I (AD 366–384) reads thus:

Development of the Christian biblical canon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon

Matthew 5:18 ESV
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:21
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Luke 24:44
Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

John 10:35
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—


Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun.

The order of the Old Testament begins here:
1. Genesis one book,
2. Exodus one book,
3. Leviticus one book,
4. Numbers one book,
5. Deuteronomy one book,
6. Josue Nave one book,
7. Judges one book,
8. Ruth one book,
9 Kings four books,
10. Paralipomenon [i.e. Chronicles] two books,
11. Psalms one book,
12. Solomon three books,
13. Proverbs one book,
14. Ecclesiastes one book,
15. Canticle of Canticles one book,
16. Likewise Wisdom one book,
17. Ecclesiasticus [i.e. Sirach] one book.
Total: 22


Likewise the order of the Prophets.
18. Isaias one book,
19. Jeremias one book,
20. With Ginoth, that is, with his Lamentations one book,
21 Ezechiel one book,
22. Daniel one book,
23. Osee one book,
24. Amos one book,
25. Micheas one book,
26. Joel one book,
27. Abdias one book,
28. Jonas one book,
29. Nahum one book,
30. Habacuc one book,
31. Sophonias one book,
32. Aggeus one book,
33. Zacharias one book,
34. Malachias one book.
Total books 17


Likewise the order of the histories.
35. Job one book,
36. Tobias one book,
37. Esdras two books [i.e. Ezra & Nehemiah],
38. Esther one book,
39. Judith one book,
40. Machabees two books.
Total Books 8.
Grand Total Old Testament Books 46


Likewise the order of the writings of the New and Eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports.

Of the Gospels, according to:
1. Matthew one book,
2. According to Mark one book,
3. According to Luke one book,
4. According to John one book.
Total Books 4

The Epistles of Paul the Apostle in number fourteen.
5. To the Romans one,
6. To the Corinthians two,
7. To the Ephesians one,
8. To the Thessalonians two,
9. To the Galatians one,
10. To the Philippians one,
11. To the Colossians one,
12. To Timothy two,
13. To Titus one,
14. Tto Philemon one,
15. To the Hebrews one.
Total Books 14

Likewise the
16. Apocalypse of John, one book.
17. And the Acts of the Apostles one book.
Total Books 2

Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven.
18. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles,
19. Of James the Apostle one epistle,
20. Of John the Apostle one epistle,
21. of another John, the presbyter, two epistles,
22. Of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle.
Total Books 7
Grand Total, New Testament Books 27
A council probably held at Rome in 382 under St. Damasus gave a complete list of the canonical books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament (also known as the 'Gelasian Decree' because it was reproduced by Gelasius in 495), which is identical with the list given at Trent.


Historian William Jurgens writes:
The first part of this decree has long been known as the Decree of Damasus, and concerns the Holy Spirit and the seven-fold gifts.

The second part of the decree is more familiarly known as the opening part of the Gelasian Decree, in regard to the canon of Scripture: De libris recipiendis vel non recipiendis.

It is now commonly held that the part of the Gelasian Decree dealing with the accepted canon of Scripture is an authentic work of the Council of Rome of 382 A.D. and that Gelasius edited it again at the end of the fifth century, adding to it the catalog of the rejected books, the apocrypha.

It is now almost universally accepted that these parts one and two of the Decree of Damasus are authentic parts of the Acts of the Council of Rome of 382 A.D.

Development of the Christian biblical canon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon
Feb 19, 2019 02:11:21   #
Canuckus Deploracus,

If you want to know what the Catholic Early Church Fathers had to say about the Papacy and so much more:

Go here.
https://www.churchfathers.org/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass/

Martins Luthers Prerogatives:

Yes he wanted to remove so much more.

Will send information and articles...

THE DIDACHE
“Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist;

But first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one.

Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice.
Matt. 5:23–24

For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations.’
Mal 1:11, 14”
(Didache 14 A.D. 70.

Got to get some sleep...

Doc110
 
Feb 19, 2019 02:00:23   #
Canuckus Deploracus,

Yes,

I think there is the three strike rules for the OPP Main Forum, and General Chit-chat.

Also there are the private forums; Such as the OPP FRS form.

Which I complained, privately to the Forum Administrator and the co-proctor, for complaining publicly on the OPP FRS and Main forum.

When the Continued OPP FRS anti Catholic ranting reached its peak, in September-December 18, 2018.

And restarted the same anti-Catholic routine 45 days later in February, 8, 2019.

And I complained.

Doc



Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Hi Doc... Hope you are well...

Quick question...

We can be kicked off a particular section of the OPP... How?
Feb 19, 2019 01:50:18   #
02/17, 2019 Saint John Newman, Defender of the Faith

Sophia Feingold
http://m.ncregister.com/blog/feingold/st.-john-newman-defender-of-the-faith


Newman's writings in defense of the Catholic Faith remain important today.

The news that Pope Francis will canonize Blessed John Henry Newman (1801-1890), following the confirmation of a second miracle due to his intercession, will delight many Catholics and should surprise none.

Newman’s heroic virtue—displayed among other things in his decision to convert at a time when English Catholics still bore grave social and civic penalties in practicing their faith—is a matter of record.

Even setting that aside however, had Newman been a cradle Catholic and native to a country friendlier to his religion, the Church would owe him a tremendous debt for his apologetic works.

Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua, a biography and defense of his conversion written in response to the anti-Catholic attacks of novelist Charles Kingsley (Westward Ho!; The Water-Babies), is perhaps his best known work.

His long poem The Dream of Gerontius, critically acclaimed on its publication for its treatment of the deathbed, is still taught in literature programs today.

But his greatest contribution to the body of Catholic works may well be the seminal Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.

I first encountered the Essay in a college senior seminar.

Although I had always been Catholic and had never seriously doubted the Faith, I did have a number of unanswered questions, one of the most pressing of which was the question of how we could embrace any number of ideas which were not explicit in the Bible or the early Fathers.

It was easy enough to point out proof texts in Scripture that were connected to these doctrines;

It was not difficult to refute attacks on the reasonability of the doctrines or their coherence with Scripture;
But it was difficult to explain why we now profess papal infallibility (to give one example) or the Assumption of Our Lady (to give another) when such ideas were not clearly professed before.


Enter Blessed John Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1845).

Newman was specifically interested in defending doctrines like those concerning Our Lady, the papacy, and purgatory which were (and still are) often suspected by Protestants.

He brought his formidable knowledge of the Church Fathers to bear on the question, showing in each debated case how the ideas Catholics professed in the nineteenth century were implicit in the earliest teachings of the Church;

And he bolstered his arguments by pointing to similar developments in Trinitarian and Christological doctrine, developments which Protestants accepted without question.


The central ideas behind Newman’s defense of doctrinal development were two:

a. The unity of truth, and the discursive nature of human reason (both, not incidentally, ideas explored by Aquinas—e.g., the former in De Veritate 1.6 and Summa 1.16.8, the latter in Summa 1.14.7).

b. Thomas Aquinas: Quaestiones disputatae de veritate: English
https://dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdeVer.htm

c. Summa Theologica: The existence of God in things (Prima Pars, Q. 8)
www.newadvent.org › Summa Theologiae › First Part

d. Being as the ground of truth in aquinas - Wiley Online Library
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-2265.2008.00453.x



Regarding truth’s unity, Newman held that the truths of the faith were coherent each in itself and each one with all the rest, such that true developments of doctrine could not be contrary to earlier ideas, or to each other.

Against modernist notions, which supposed that what the Church once held to be true might be denied now or in future, Newman seems to have conceived of the Faith as something like a flowering tree:

The bud, the blossom, and the fruit were natural outgrowths of one another. Or, as he puts it,

“The adult animal has the same make, as it had on its birth; young birds do not grow into fishes, nor does the child degenerate into the brute, wild or domestic, of which he is by inheritance lord.”
(Essay, ch. 5, § 1, ¶ 2).

A tree’s underlying sameness extends through all stages of its development, but of course human beings do not witness flowering and fruition at the same time:

Spring shows one thing and autumn another. Likewise, human beings reason and learn discursively. In mastering any subject we come to know first its most obvious outlines, and then its more complex details.

And this is true over centuries as well:

Human understanding of astronomy and physics, for example, has grown more precise and accurate over hundreds of years.

Of course, Theology has an advantage over the other sciences, inasmuch as (by God’s grace) it never fell into error in the way that old astronomers certainly did.

Thus it would not be true to say that Theology has gained in accuracy, after the manner of the sciences;

But it has certainly gained in precision.



As Newman puts it, at the beginning of the Essay’s second chapter, the idea of Christianity

… Will in course of time expand into a multitude of ideas, and aspects of ideas, connected and harmonious with one another, and in themselves determinate and immutable, as is the objective fact itself [Christianity] which is thus represented.

It is a characteristic of our minds, that they cannot take an object in, which is submitted to them simply and integrally. We conceive by means of definition or description;

Whole objects do not create in the intellect whole ideas, but are, to use a mathematical phrase, thrown into series, into a number of statements, strengthening, interpreting, correcting each other, and with more or less exactness approximating, as they accumulate, to a perfect image.


There is no other way of learning or of teaching.

We cannot teach except by aspects or views, which are not identical with the thing itself which we are teaching.

Two persons may each convey the same truth to a third, yet by methods and through representations altogether different.

The same person will treat the same argument differently in an essay or speech, according to the accident of the day of writing, or of the audience, yet it will be substantially the same.

And the more claim an idea has to be considered living, the more various will be its aspects; and the more social and political is its nature, the more complicated and subtle will be its issues, and the longer and more eventful will be its course.

Or, as the bishops of Vatican II suggested in Dei Verbum:
(Dogmatic Constitution "On Divine Revelation")
https://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v2revel.htm

… There is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down.

This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts.
(see Luke, 2:19, 51)

Luke 2:19-51 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

19 But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart.
20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God, for all the things they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
21 And after eight days were accomplished, that the child should be circumcised, his name was called JESUS, which was called by the angel, before he was conceived in the womb.
22 And after the days of her purification, according to the law of Moses, were accomplished, they carried him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord:
23 As it is written in the law of the Lord: Every male opening the womb shall be called holy to the Lord:
24 And to offer a sacrifice, according as it is written in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons:
25 And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him.
26 And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law,
28 He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said:
29 Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace;
30 Because my eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples:
32 A light to the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And his father and mother were wondering at those things which were spoken concerning him.
34 And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted;
35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.
36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser; she was far advanced in years, and had lived with her husband seven years from her virginity.
37 And she was a widow until fourscore and four years; who departed not from the temple, by fastings and prayers serving night and day.
38 Now she, at the same hour, coming in, confessed to the Lord; and spoke of him to all that looked for the redemption of Israel.
39 And after they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their city Nazareth.
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong, full of wisdom; and the grace of God was in him.
41 And his parents went every year to Jerusalem, at the solemn day of the pasch,
42 And when he was twelve years old, they going up into Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast,
43 And having fulfilled the days, when they returned, the child Jesus remained in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not.
44 And thinking that he was in the company, they came a day's journey, and sought him among their kinsfolks and acquaintance.
45 And not finding him, they returned into Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his wisdom and his answers.
48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father's business?
50 And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart.


Through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth.

For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.

St. John Newman, ora pro nobis.
(Latin invocation meaning pray for us.)
Feb 19, 2019 01:26:18   #
rose42,

Just admit it you are a Anti-Catholic Bigot and hates the Catholic Church and the people like Radiance3, Padre Mike and myself, who defend the Catholic Church from your vehement lies and continual onslaughts of nasty anti-Catholic Rhetoric.

You are also a Religious Stalker, now that I have been Kicked off the OPP Religious Forum.

You are a very wrong, an argumentative person.

Please seek some spiritual help, for your continued evil against myself, Radiance3 and the Catholic on this OPP Forum...

Amen, Amen, Let it be so, I believe, Amen, Amen...

Rose42 wrote:


Same author on different sites does not a rebuttal make. Especially considering Dave Armstrong is weak on biblical doctrine. I've read a lot of his stuff.

Instead of trying to attack the author - and Dave Armstrong fails in his attempt - you should actually look at the material cited and think for yourself.

Also cited is Peter de Rosa who is a Catholic and former Catholic priest. He was able to research Vatican archives which revealed acknowledgement of forgeries.

If you look at sources it lists more Catholics - not protestants. There are other sites as well which list the forgeries. The Catholic church has acknowledged some of them.

Remember this isn't trying to say all protestants are perfect. They have their own garbage in their history.
br br Same author on different sites does not a ... (show quote)
Feb 19, 2019 01:20:37   #
rose42,

You only gave your Barean Church URL website rhetoric,... and your Berean Churches false theology, philosophy facts.

I gave the consensus of Scholarly Consensus against your Berean Church heretical false history.

You stand alone in your opinions of millions that can recite history against your false historical teaching and your Berean's anti-Catholic sentiments and hate speech against the Catholic Church...


The only person who is lying is you.

May God protect your soul for lying...

Rose42 wrote:
Oh yes I did post links Doc. Links that can be verified. You never look at them - you pretend they don't exist. Instead of lying about what I post you should research more thoroughly. Here's a place you can start. It has numerous cross references and mention of Catholic historians that support forgeries.http://www.bereanpublishers.com/forged-documents-and-papal-power/
Feb 19, 2019 01:12:23   #
flash,

Quotation, I follow the BIBLE I DON'T add to it or take away from it.

Hummmm,
Sounds a lot like Sola Scriptura -
(Latin: by scripture alone) the Bible alone - Latin translation.


Hummmm,

What is the Protestant Martin Luther's definition and reference on what Sola Scriptura is ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

Sola Scriptura, is a theological doctrine held by Protestant Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice in using the Bible.

While the scriptures,' Canon-Bible meaning is mediated through many kinds of secondary authority, such as the ordinary teaching offices of a denominated church, the ecumenical creeds, the councils of the catholic church, Oral and written Tradition because the Bible had not ben codified until A.D. 397.


Sola Scriptura, on the other hand, rejects any original infallible authority other than the Bible.

In this view, all secondary authority is derived from the authority of the scriptures and is therefore subject to reform when compared to the teaching of the Bible.

Church councils, preachers, Bible commentators, private revelation, or even a message allegedly from an angel or an apostle are not an original authority alongside the Bible in the sola scriptura approach ? What ?

Sola scriptura is a formal principle of many Protestant Christian denominations, and one of the five solae.

It was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by many of the Reformers, who taught that authentication of scripture is governed by the discernible excellence of the text as well as the personal witness of the Holy Spirit to the heart of each man.

Some evangelical and Baptist denominations state the doctrine of sola scriptura more strongly:

Scripture is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, their own interpreter of ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

By contrast, Anglicanism and Methodism, also considered forms of Protestantism.

Uphold the doctrine of prima scriptura, with scripture being illumined by tradition, reason, and in Methodism, experience as well, thus completing the four sides of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

The Eastern Orthodox Church holds that to "accept the books of the canon is also to accept the ongoing Spirit-led authority of the church's tradition, which recognizes, interprets, worships, and corrects itself by the witness of Holy Scripture".

The Catholic Church regards the apostolic preaching and writing (referred to as tradition and scripture respectively) as equal since they believe that many of their traditions also came from the Apostles.

The Catholic Church describes this as "one common source ... with two distinct modes of transmission", while some Protestant authors call it "a dual source of revelation".[7]


flash wrote:
You're right.
No one is stopping me from the truth.
Just where did you come up with this sola scripture anyway.
I follow the BIBLE I DON'T add to it or take away from it.
I look at the culture when it was written (man's sinful nature hasn't changed) and I look at the languages used and look up meanings.
But most of all I pray and when I feel lost I depend on the HOLY SPIRIT to take my prayers to the FATHER. Rom 8:26-27.
 
Feb 19, 2019 00:57:33   #
flash,

You are so confused... Where do you come up with this nonsense beliefs ... of yours...

Matthew 16:18-19
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."


If you want to know what the Catholic Early Church Fathers had to say about the Papacy: Go here.
https://www.churchfathers.org/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass/


Christ made Peter the leader of the apostles and of the church (Matthew 16:18-19).

In giving Peter the “keys of the kingdom,” Christ not only made him leader, but also made him infallible when he acted or spoke as Christ’s representative on earth (speaking from the seat of authority on what the Church teaches, or “ex cathedra”).

This ability to act on behalf of the church in an infallible way when speaking “ex cathedra” was passed on to Peter’s successors.

Peter later became the first bishop of Rome. As bishop of Rome, he exercised authority over all other bishops and church leaders. The teaching that the bishop of Rome is above all other bishops in authority is referred to as the “primacy” of the Roman bishop.

Peter passed on his apostolic authority to the next bishop of Rome, along with the other apostles who passed on their apostolic authority to the bishops that they ordained. These new bishops, in turn, passed on that apostolic authority to those bishops that they later ordained, and so on. This “passing on of apostolic authority” is referred to as “apostolic succession.”

Based upon the claim of an unbroken chain of Roman bishops, Roman Catholics teach that the Roman Catholic Church is the true church, and that all churches that do not accept the primacy of the pope have broken away from them, the original and one true church Founded by Jesus Christ.

And you are so anti-Catholic predictive...


Heed this quotation below.

Fulton J. Sheen said:There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,... but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be...


All authority in Heaven and Earth, the sovereignty of Jesus and his unstoppable mission.

So let’s begin with a massive statement from Jesus about his sovereign rule over this world and over his mission in Matthew 28:18–20.

Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


Now Lets talk about Authority and the Authority given to Jesus and his Church and to Peter the Steward of the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

“Did Jesus, not always have this authority even in eternity past?”

John 1:1–4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.[/b]

Matthew 11:27
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

John 13:3
Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God . . . knelt down and washed the apostles’ feet.

Ephesians 1:20–21
God raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

John 17:2
Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.


So how extensive is that authority and that rule — “All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me”? Here are biblical sightings of that authority.

John 1:3
“All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

Hebrews 1:3
“He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17
“He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Luke 8:25
“Who then is this [the apostles cried], that he commands even winds and water, and they obey him?”

Revelation 17:14
John calls him King over all kings. “They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”


[u]Learn something about the usage of Church in the Bible.(Below)

There are several good answers below regarding the history of the word “church” in the English New Testament.

1. The New Testament authors had precedent for using the Greek word Ecclesia—the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, which predated Christianity 250 A.D.

2. A lot of the confusion arises because of the derivation of the English word Church from Old German (modern German uses kirche), which in turn is derived from the Greek kuriakos.

3. The Septuagint used ecclesia to translate the Hebrew word qahal, which referred to the assembly or congregation of people, specifically of Israel.

4. So, it’s like this …
a. kuriakos (Greek) → kirche (German) → church (English)
b. qahal (Hebrew) → ecclesia (Greek) → ecclesia (Latin) → iglesia (Spanish and similar for other Romance languages)

5. Usage of "Church" occurs 77 times in 76 verses.

Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Act 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Act 5:11
And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Act 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Learn Anything, flash...


flash wrote:


If you're saying that St. Peter founded the Catholic Church are you saying that he was the 1st Pope?

If so let me remind you that St. Peter was a married man.

The Pope is simply a human being just like the rest of us with no authority to change anything.
Feb 17, 2019 23:51:41   #
rose42,

An Ignorant spoiled brat like, Protestant Berean church child mentality. . .

You still can't produce the historical research.

Until you do this rose42, you loose the argument, and you are only talking hyperbole; exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

You are so ignorant of
a. World history,
b. Church history, and
c. Biblical history.

You never post facts, that can be corroborated and or can be verified.

You never post website information, with NO Website URL... to verify your opinions...

You loose, the argument position every time, all you ever do, is give is personal information and biased protestant and false Berean church rhetoric, minus the facts...

Amen, Amen, Let it be so, I believe, Amen, Amen.


Rose42 wrote:
lol,
I don't have a childlike mentality.
I've looked at both sides and have seen it wasn't until 1546 that they made it official.
Before then it was not nor was it accepted outside the Catholic church.
You should read both sides not just how you want it to be.
Feb 17, 2019 23:20:09   #
maximus,

Your so sure about your statistics ?

The Catholic figures show that world wide, between about 4% of priests and deacons serving in the US between 1950 and 2002 had been accused of sexual abuse of someone under 18.

In the United States now, the recent figure's since 2002 was a 10th of that: at 0.4%

Certainly the safeguards against paedophilia in the priesthood are now among the tightest in the world. That won't stop a steady trickle of scandals; but I think that objectively your child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic or Anglican priest in the west today than by the members of almost any other profession or by family members.


Here are more shocking sexual crimes by teachers in public and private schools statistics and reports.

Sex abuse and sex crimes happen mostly at private homes with family members and or relatives and friends.

The outcome is that the extent of abuse is higher—likely much higher—than what is reported. The U.S. Department of Justice estimates that only 30 percent of sexual assault cases are reported to authorities.
Even though rates of abuse are underreported, the numbers are still staggering.
https://www.baptiststandard.com/falling-seed/child-sexual-abuse-church-widespread-problem/

Six Myths About Clergy Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church
There's more fiction than facts in Catholic clergy sexual abuse discussions.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201003/six-myths-about-clergy-sexual-abuse-in-the-catholic-church

The Sin of Silence
The epidemic of denial about sexual abuse in the evangelical church

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/05/31/feature/the-epidemic-of-denial-about-sexual-abuse-in-the-evangelical-church/

Catholic child abuse in proportion
Certainly the safeguards against paedophilia in the priesthood are now among the tightest in the world. That won't stop a steady trickle of scandals; but I think that objectively your child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic or Anglican priest in the west today than by the members of almost any other profession.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests

The plague of sexual abuse is worse than you think.
Consider the following:

1. Nationwide, one in five girls and one in 12 boys are sexually abused before their 18th birthday;
2. 95 percent of boys and girls are abused by someone they know;
3. 50 percent of victims between the ages of 1 and 6 and 25 percent of victims between the ages of 12 and
17 are abused by a member of their own family;
4. 84 percent of child sexual abuse occurs in homes.
5. In 2014, 1.8 million adolescents in the United States were the victims of a sexual assault.

The overwhelming number of victims are females. The overwhelming number of perpetrators are males, more often an older child under the age of 18.

And these government statistics are merely a best guess; most incidents involving the sexual abuse of a minor go unreported.
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/08/21/plague-sexual-abuse-worse-you-think

I give facts and a URL website links, so I can corroborate and prove that the facts and statistics are accurate.
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

Frequently Requested Catholic Church Statistics
https://cara.georgetown.edu/frequently-requested-church-statistics/

Really, Here is the other part of the story that is not talked about on the OPP forum.

And that is the real story that is happening in America, and you want to focus on the Catholic priest scandal.

I think that the studies and statistics show, in the public and private school systems show a 9.8 % percent that teachers commit more male and female, molestation and sex crimes then priests, pastors, ministers, Rabbi's and Imam's. It happens in the Hindu and the Buddhist faiths also.


It should be noted that while childhood sexual abuse by Catholic clergy has received extensive media coverage, childhood sexual abuse by teachers and others is also a serious problem.

Charol Shakeshaft, who has done extensive research on the problem of sexual abuse of students by teachers, recognizes the difficulty of collecting solid data on sexual abuse;

But using available studies, she estimates that “the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than one hundred times more than abuse by priests.”8

According to Shakeshaft's research, even when abuse was reported to school officials the offenders were not reported to the police.

In her study of 225 cases in New York, “none of the abusers were reported to authorities and only 1 percent lost their license to teach.”9

A recent article in The New York Times documented abuse—including sexual abuse—of the developmentally disabled in group homes.

Even when abuse was uncovered, perpetrators were allowed to continue working at other facilities.10
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6026962/


Sexual Assault in the United States

One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives (a)
In the U.S., one in three women and one in six men experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)
51.1% of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance (a)
52.4% of male victims report being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger (a)
Almost half (49.5%) of multiracial women and over 45% of American Indian/Alaska Native women were subjected to some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)
91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male (m)
In eight out of 10 cases of rape, the victim knew the perpetrator (j)
Eight percent of rapes occur while the victim is at work (c)
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

Child Sexual Abuse

One in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old (d)
30% of women were between the ages of 11 and 17 at the time of their first completed rape (a)
12.3% of women were age 10 or younger at the time of their first completed rape victimization (a)
27.8% of men were age 10 or younger at the time of their first completed rape victimization (a)
More than one third of women who report being raped before age 18 also experience rape as an adult (a)
96% of people who sexually abuse children are male, and 76.8% of people who sexually abuse children are adults (l)
34% of people who sexually abuse a child are family members of the child (l)
It is estimated that 325,000 children per year are currently at risk of becoming victims of commercial child sexual exploitation (k)
The average age at which girls first become victims of prostitution is 12-14 years old, and the average age at which boys first become victims of prostitution is 11-13 years old (k)
Only 12% of child sexual abuse is ever reported to the authorities (f)

Campus Sexual Assault

20% - 25% of college women and 15% of college men are victims of forced sex during their time in college (b)
A 2002 study revealed that 63.3% of men at one university who self-reported acts qualifying as rape or attempted rape admitted to committing repeat rapes (h)
More than 90% of sexual assault victims on college campuses do not report the assault (b)
27% of college women have experienced some form of unwanted sexual contact (e)
Nearly two thirds of college students experience sexual harassment (p)
Feb 17, 2019 18:34:55   #
jSmitty45,

Opinion's are like A-Holes, everyone has one.

There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church,... but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be...
Fulton J. Sheen


1. Prove your opinions.
a. That the Catholic Church worships graven images.
b. That Jesus Christ founded the Catholic-Universal Church and gave the keys to Peter his steward, through
Apostolic Succession, through the Pope's and through the Bishop's and through the Cardinal's.
c. That the Holy Spirit-Holy Ghost guides, Jesus's One True Church, from Pentecost to the end of time.


a. That the Catholic Church worships graven images:

This controversy didn't happen till the Protestant Reformation in A.D. 1517, and it has perpetuated since, this novel idolatry concept was re-invented and was taken out of context from the Old Testament and a reinterpretations of the second commandments by Protestants.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/graven-images

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them”

a. Graven Images

In Exodus 20:3-6:
God forbids making graven images for the purpose of idolatry but does not forbid the making of graven images per se.

Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.

Exodus 25:18-19 "[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . ."

Exodus 26:1
"You shall make the tabernacle with . . . cherubim skillfully worked."

Numbers 21:8-9
"The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.' So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole."

1 Kings 6:23, 27-29
"He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers."

1 Kings 7:25
"[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east."

1 Kings 7:36
"And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about."


b. That Jesus Christ founded the Catholic-Universal Church and gave the keys to Peter his steward, through
Apostolic succession, through the Pope's and through the Bishop's and through the Cardinal's..

Psalm 118:22
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
Jesus a Jewish Rabbi, founded his church, The Catholic Universal Church e.g.
https://biblehub.com/psalms/118-22.htm

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
https://biblehub.com/matthew/21-42.htm

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…


c. That the Holy Spirit-Holy Ghost guides, Jesus's One True Church, from Pentecost to the end of time.

Matthew 28:18-20
Jesus drew near and said to them, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you. And I will be with you always, to the end of the age.”

c. John 14:26
The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and make you remember all that I have told you.

d. John 20:21-23
Jesus Appears to the Disciples
Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.”
When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”…

e. Luke 24:44-49
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
And repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things.
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Acts 1:1-9
Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.
3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Acts 2:1-5
1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Each one of you must turn away from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven; and you will receive God’s gift, the Holy Spirit.

Acts 4:31
When they finished praying, the place where they were meeting was shaken. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to proclaim God’s message with boldness.

Romans 5:5; The Holy Spirit, The Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, the "Paraclete or “Advocate,"
This is the role of the Advocate. He is the Love of God who is poured into our hearts who drives out unlovely loves. He is the Lord and Giver of true life who makes utterly clear that so many other things that we regarded as “life” are really death warmed over.

Romans 8:26
In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. For we do not know how we ought to pray; the Spirit himself pleads with God for us in groans that words cannot express.

The Holy Spirit is the real thing. And he does not just come and go. He is with us always.


jSmitty45,
Respond with facts, Facts, FACTs;

No Supposition's, No Innuendo's, No Exaggeration's of your own Personal Emotional Belief's,
No Hypocritical Truth's, No Empty Rhetoric devoid of Real Factual Substance.
And full of Personal Regurgitated Passed-Down Dendrite Compost Opinions.

America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance - it is not. It is suffering from tolerance. Tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.
Fulton J. Sheen

Amen, Amen, Let be so, I believe, Amen, Amen.


jSmitty45 wrote:
Amen! 👍👍👍👍
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