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Immigration on the left, bigotry on the right
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Nov 24, 2014 11:27:15   #
She Wolf Loc: Currently Georgia
 
Illegal immigrants do not take American jobs because they do it better. They take American jobs because our government subsidizes them. They can work for less because they receive benefits American citizens do not:

Subsidized rent
Medicaid
Food Stamps
Minority Business Loans
TANF money each month.
They are not required to pay their hospital bills if they do not receive Medicaid.

In short they are payed to invade.

Reply
Nov 24, 2014 11:27:25   #
VladimirPee
 
The executive order references existing law. Obama created his own law


straightUp wrote:
As usual, you fall over yourself to try and disprove me with material that winds up being irrelevant. The Act you reference is from 1953. The earliest executive order I referenced was from 1956. Obviously, there wouldn't be any need to sign an executive order if the president wasn't trying to provision something that wasn't already included in the 1953 act.

For future reference, rushing to the internet for things to cut and paste into your responses often leaves you looking like a fool. Just stick with your Dennis Menace middle-finger - it sums you up perfectly, just a brainless cartoon with a big middle-finger.
As usual, you fall over yourself to try and dispro... (show quote)

Reply
Nov 24, 2014 11:29:33   #
VladimirPee
 
Where did you copy paste this from? DailyKos? Its obvious you didn't research these.




straightUp wrote:
As usual, you fall over yourself to try and disprove me with material that winds up being irrelevant. The Act you reference is from 1953. The earliest executive order I referenced was from 1956. Obviously, there wouldn't be any need to sign an executive order if the president wasn't trying to provision something that wasn't already included in the 1953 act.

For future reference, rushing to the internet for things to cut and paste into your responses often leaves you looking like a fool. Just stick with your Dennis Menace middle-finger - it sums you up perfectly, just a brainless cartoon with a big middle-finger.
As usual, you fall over yourself to try and dispro... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Nov 24, 2014 11:40:58   #
VladimirPee
 
The Eisenhower Executive order was administrative and related to the Refugee Escapee Program. It did not change the original law in any way and simply changed internal administrative duties which is well within the power of the President.

Executive Order 10663 - Administration of the Escapee Program
March 24, 1956



Office of the Federal Register
Office of the Federal Register









The American Presidency Project

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By virtue of the authority vested in me by the Mutual Security Act of 1954 (68 Stat. 832), as amended, including particularly sections 521 and 525 thereof, it is ordered as follows:
SECTION 1. Section 104 of Executive Order No. 10610 of May 9, 1955 (20 F. R. 3181), is hereby amended by adding at the end thereof a new subsection (c) reading as follows:

"(c) The Secretary of State may carry out the functions now financed pursuant to section 405 (d) of the Mutual Security Act of 1954, as amended, through any officer or agency of the Department of State."

SEC. 2. There is hereby terminated the duty of the Director of the International Cooperation Administration (under section 103 (c) of Executive Order No. 10575 of November 6, 1954 (19 F. R. 7251), as affected by Executive Order No. 10610) to assist the Secretary of State in formulating and presenting the policy of the United States with respect to the assistance programs of the Intergovernmental Committee for European Migration, the United Nations Refugee Fund, and the United Nations Children's Fund.

SEC. 3. The Secretary of State is hereby authorized to transfer or assign to any agency or agencies of the Department of State such offices, officers, and personnel, and so much of the property and records, of the International Cooperation Administration as he may deem necessary for the administration by the said agency or agencies of the functions referred to in section 104 (c) of Executive Order No. 10610, as amended by this order.

SEC. 4. This order shall become effective on the first day of the first month commencing after the date hereof.

DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER

THE WHITE HOUSE,




straightUp wrote:
First, let's get this question of constitutional legality out of the way. I will do this simply by pointing to the precedence set by every single Republican president since Eisenhower who all used executive orders to grant amnesty to illegal immigrants. Here is a summary of 18 of these executive orders.

Pres. Dwight Eisenhower:

1956
By executive order, circumvented immigration quotas to allow 900 orphans to join their adoptive families in the U.S.

1956-1958
By executive order, allowed 31,000 Hungarian anti-Soviet insurgents to emigrate.

1959-72
By executive order, allowed 600,000 Cubans fleeing Castro to emigrate. [PDF]

Pres. Gerald Ford:

1975
By executive order, allowed 360,000 refugees, mostly from from Vietnam, to emigrate.

1976
By executive order, allowed 14,000 Lebanese nationals to emigrate.

Pres. Ronald Reagan:

1981
By executive order, allowed 7,000 Polish anti-Communists to emigrate.

1982
Allowed 15,000-plus Ethiopians to emigrate.

1987
By executive order, rescinded deportation of 200,000 Nicaraguans.

1987
By executive order, deferred deportation of undocumented children of 100,000 families. [JSTOR]

George H.W. Bush:

1989
By executive order, deferred deportations of Chinese students.

1989
By executive order, reversed visa denials of 7,000 Soviets, Indochinese.

1990
By executive order, deferred deporations of previously amnestied citizens’ 1.5 million spouses and children.

1991
By executive order, deferred deportation of 2,000 Gulf War evacuees.

1992
By executive order, deferred deportations of 190,000 El Salvadorans.

George W. Bush:

2002
By executive order, expedited naturalization for green-card holders who joined military.

2005
By executive order, deferred deportation of students affected by Hurricane Katrina.

2006
By executive order, enabled 1,500 Cuban physicians to seek asylum at US embassies.

2007
By executive order, deferred deportation of 3,600 Liberians.

Now, whether or not you think ALL of these orders are constitutionally illegal is a different, though respectable argument. On the other hand, if you're inclined to pick and choose which of the orders are justified, then you are surrendering the broad claim that President Obama does not have the constitutional authority to issue executive orders. If that's the case, you would have to shift the focus to whether or not his constitutionally valid order is otherwise unreasonable. This is the part I want to focus on here. In other words, constitution aside, what exactly is it that makes Obama's action so horrific?

The first such argument that appears most obvious is the extent of the order. Clearly, Obama's order involves a far greater number of immigrants than any of the orders before him. Perhaps that's worthy of concern, although personally I don't see it. Maybe someone needs to point it out to me. If these illegal immigrants were being granted citizenship then I would say it would be helping to dilute the democracy by decreasing the ratio of representatives to citizens, but Obama isn't granting them citizenship. That leaves us with the sociological and economic concerns of accepting 5 million immigrants into our system and this is where my opinion might grate on some nerves. I personally don't see any difference between native-born Americans and immigrants when it comes to basic human rights. Nor do I see any difference between them when it comes to their work ethic, criminal inclination or any other form of stereotyping. I don't have much tolerance for the whining about immigrants "taking" jobs from Americans either. As far as I am concerned, the only reason why an immigrant will take "your" job is that they're better at it than you are and if that's the case then good, because as a consumer, I would rather pay for goods and services provided by the best workers, than those provided by "privileged" workers and this is coming from a professional in a field that is saturated by foreign workers. I've been surviving by working hard and competing not by relying on the government to force employees to give the job to me just because I was born here.

The other response I have to this protectionist view is that immigrants are also consumers which means they will not only be taking jobs, they will be creating jobs too by virtue of increased demand. These five million immigrants are going to be shopping at Walmart, buying lunches at Taco Bell and if Obama gets his way they will also be buying insurance and paying for services, just like everyone else. I don't hear Republicans complain about the fact that there are already over 300 million people in what they take pride in saying is the largest and strongest economy in the world. So I don't understand how 5 million more is going to make any difference.

What does that leave us with? Not much. Of course there is the prejudice, racism and general bigotry which has always characterized the right, from the quiet undercurrents of conservative policy to the most outrageous antics of extreme fascism but Republicans know they can't win over the moderates on racism and bigotry alone. They HAVE to come up with something that at least sounds legitimate. So far they have a big fat ZERO, and apparently they are choosing to continue with a campaign of emotionally changed fallacy in hopes that enough voters will remain ignorant and infuriated to carry the bullshit movement.

I'd have more respect for them if they just said we hate Mexicans at least then they wouldn't be lying.
First, let's get this question of constitutional l... (show quote)

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Nov 24, 2014 11:55:14   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
Trooper745 wrote:
First, your statement that Republicans hate Mexicans is simply dishonest leftist rhetoric. It isn't true, but it makes shallow leftists feel good to hear it or say it.

I don't know about shallow leftists, but yes, such obviously broad generalizations does make ME feel good... because it sums up a truth that is otherwise very hard to articulate. I know through first hand accounts that many (not all but MANY) conservatives, more so than liberals, are racist and that for people who ARE racist, conservative politics offers the most attractive policies. So it may be unfair to *some* conservatives but it does capture a general truth that no American is willing to admit to. And don't get caught up in the "Mexican" reference... again, it's a broad generalization. If I was to be specific I would have to provide a pretty long demographic list of non-whites, non-Christians and non-Americans.

Trooper745 wrote:

Your whole post does nothing more than expose your ignorance of where this uncontrolled illegal, along with the legal, immigration is leading this Nation. Like most liberals, you are assuming that by allowing uncontrolled immigration into this country we can help the poor and needy of the world.

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. In fact my post is systematically deconstructing the argument and at one point I said...

"Clearly, Obama's order involves a far greater number of immigrants than any of the orders before him. Perhaps that's worthy of concern, although personally I don't see it. Maybe someone needs to point it out to me."

Clearly I am saying this is a personal view, that I could be wrong and inviting anyone to point out where and how. So why not do that instead of just saying I'm ignorant?

Trooper745 wrote:

In fact, if you apply the three tests suggested by Dr. Thomas Sowell, that almost always defeat leftist arguments (Compared to what? At what cost? What evidence do you have?), and get some real facts to fill in the knowledge of the matter, it becomes evident that we can't take on the billions of people in sinking countries, without sinking the USA.

OK - stop right there... that's inductive fallacy. Obama isn't asking us to accept billions of people in sinking countries... He is asking for amnesty for 5 million preexisiting immigrants and for some very small changes to make the immigration process more efficient. This does not equate to what you are suggesting.

Trooper745 wrote:

We take in about a million legal immigrants per year, but we can't even afford to do that into the future, .... much less accept multi-millions more of the most ignorant and lazy, coming in as illegals.

The most ignorant and lazy? And you claim you're not a bigot? Many of these immigrants are more educated and harder working than many Americans are. I work with a lot of immigrants from India and China who leave their American counterparts intellectually in the dust. Why do you think the tech industry is so keen on H1 visas?

Trooper745 wrote:

To point out some of these things to you, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4DFPKNdYFkE

OK, I'll watch it.

Reply
Nov 24, 2014 12:00:19   #
VladimirPee
 
We did this in the 80s under Reagan by granting amnesty to 3 Million. Result was another 11-20 Million came. In 20 years we will be having this same debate for 50 Million if it quadruples yet again. Obama is clearly not a student of history.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein


straightUp wrote:
OK, I'll watch it.

Reply
Nov 24, 2014 12:14:24   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
She Wolf wrote:
Illegal immigrants do not take American jobs because they do it better. They take American jobs because our government subsidizes them. They can work for less because they receive benefits American citizens do not:

Subsidized rent
Medicaid
Food Stamps
Minority Business Loans
TANF money each month.
They are not required to pay their hospital bills if they do not receive Medicaid.

Wow, this is the most bullshit I've seen in less than 100 words. In simple terms you are dead wrong. I don't know about TANF money but I do know for a fact that illegal immigrants don't get ANY of these other things. That's just a pack of lies used to infuriate you into supporting anti-immigration. If Obama is successful in changing their status to legal THEN they can apply for these benefits but they would also be paying taxes to support them.

And immigrants can "try" to take jobs in the U.S. but that doesn't mean they will get them. They still have to compete with everyone else for the job. If an immigrant does get the job it will be because the employer thinks they are better or cheaper, not because the government subsidizes them. Jesus what else do you believe Bigfoot, UFO's?

She Wolf wrote:

In short they are payed to invade.

ah... cute.

Reply
 
 
Nov 24, 2014 12:21:15   #
VladimirPee
 
Illegals are taking jobs from Americans and not just picking fruit. And yes 8 young male Mexicans sharing a 2 Bedroom apartment and eating rice can work much cheaper than an America.


straightUp wrote:
ah... cute.



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Nov 24, 2014 12:27:45   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
DennisDee wrote:
Where did you copy paste this from? DailyKos? Its obvious you didn't research these.


Cut and pasted the list of EOs from FactCheck... and if your reading comprehension was a little better you would have picked up on my making this a side issue to my main argument. My point was to list the EO's simply to acknowledge their existence. Perhaps it was your shock to learn that Obama wasn't the first president to issue executive orders that lead you down the path of arguing about them. It's not difficult to verify. Just look them up. I don't understand why I would need to research them when that's all I'm doing. Do I have to research the U.S. to acknowledge it exists?

The main part of my argument is the four paragraphs of my own words. Imagine that.

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Nov 24, 2014 12:29:40   #
VladimirPee
 
Your lack understanding of the issue. It is not the executive order being debated. The President has the power to issue EOs. It is the content of the order which is the problem. It creates new law and ignores existing law.

NOBODY denies the President has the power to issue an EO. Could he BAN Abortion tomorrow with one?


straightUp wrote:
Cut and pasted the list of EOs from FactCheck... and if your reading comprehension was a little better you would have picked up on my making this a side issue to my main argument. My point was to list the EO's simply to acknowledge their existence. Perhaps it was your shock to learn that Obama wasn't the first president to issue executive orders that lead you down the path of arguing about them. It's not difficult to verify. Just look them up. I don't understand why I would need to research them when that's all I'm doing. Do I have to research the U.S. to acknowledge it exists?

The main part of my argument is the four paragraphs of my own words. Imagine that.
Cut and pasted the list of EOs from FactCheck... a... (show quote)

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Nov 24, 2014 12:34:30   #
pas Loc: Flordia
 
What happens to peoples' brains when politics rears its ugly head? Broad, sweeping statements that lump people together like sheep are tiresome, to say the least. What nonsense. Let's face it, hoards of people often come here from other countries for the freebies they're told await them...welfare checks, free medical care, education, etc. If I lived in squalor, fearful of being beheaded by some roving band of armed drug cartel maniacs, I might want to leave, too. From the humanitarian point of view, there is no denying that Americans are the most generous people on earth. But eventually, in the words of Margaret Thatcher, you run out of other peoples' money! We can't keep our own country above water...we will surely drown if unchecked illegal immigrants continue to swarm our shores...but, then they are sure to vote Democrat, so where's the down side? As for all the facts I've seen pouring in...apparently, every one of us is entitled to his or her own facts. LOL

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Nov 24, 2014 12:51:49   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
DennisDee wrote:
Illegals are taking jobs from Americans and not just picking fruit.

Why is this so hard for people like you to understand? Immigrants aren't attacking American workers and stuffing them in car trunks so they can take their hardhats and jobs. They are applying for jobs just like anyone else and the employers are hiring them. So either compete or STFU. I'm not going to get on board with your protectionism bullshit.

DennisDee wrote:

And yes 8 young male Mexicans sharing a 2 Bedroom apartment and eating rice can work much cheaper than an America.

Americans can do the same thing, they just don't want to. If you think it's bullshit that workers have to eat rice and live in crowded apartments to be competitive then wake up and realize that the only reason for this is their illegal status. If they were legal they would have to be paid the same as anyone else. But your side is refusing to grant them legal status. Maybe it won't matter since your side is refusing to accept minimum wage too in their effort to drive the living standards of all Americans to third-world status. Then Americans can complete more evenly for the slave-wages Republicans dream about.

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Nov 24, 2014 13:04:17   #
straightUp Loc: California
 
pas wrote:
What happens to peoples' brains when politics rears its ugly head? Broad, sweeping statements that lump people together like sheep are tiresome, to say the least.

I agree.

pas wrote:

What nonsense. Let's face it, hoards of people often come here from other countries for the freebies they're told await them...welfare checks, free medical care, education, etc. If I lived in squalor, fearful of being beheaded by some roving band of armed drug cartel maniacs, I might want to leave, too. From the humanitarian point of view, there is no denying that Americans are the most generous people on earth.

Talk about broad sweeping statements. Actually that's a totally unsupported statement. We just like to think we are. By all measurable extents Americans are the most ungenerous people in the developed world. Of course by measurable extent I am referring to the public records published by governments such as humanitarian aid for which the Europeans far exceed us As far as I know there has been no effort to measure charity which would be almost impossible given the countless examples and the anonymous nature of much of it. So, it's therefore quite impossible to say who contributes more.

pas wrote:

But eventually, in the words of Margaret Thatcher, you run out of other peoples' money! We can't keep our own country above water...we will surely drown if unchecked illegal immigrants continue to swarm our shores...

See this is where you people always stop. You make a statement like that without ever explaining it. How about you explain HOW unchecked immigration will drown our nation and be specific. Otherwise your generalizing as much as anyone else.

pas wrote:

but, then they are sure to vote Democrat, so where's the down side?

Well, if they're voting Democrat then there IS no down side.

pas wrote:

As for all the facts I've seen pouring in...apparently, every one of us is entitled to his or her own facts. LOL

Well the only "facts" that I laid out in my OP is the list of EOs. Are you saying those presidents did NOT sign those EOs? The rest of my argument is 95% deduction and 5% stereotyping at the very end for a little kick. ;)

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Nov 24, 2014 13:15:38   #
pas Loc: Flordia
 
"You people" What does that mean?

I guess that makes you one of 'those' people. ;)

In truth, I don't see a whole lot of difference these days between the Republicans and Democrats. It seems they just want to get re-elected.

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Nov 24, 2014 13:28:05   #
pas Loc: Flordia
 
You said: "Talk about broad sweeping statements. Actually that's a totally unsupported statement. We just like to think we are. By all measurable extents Americans are the most ungenerous people in the developed world. Of course by measurable extent I am referring to the public records published by governments such as humanitarian aid for which the Europeans far exceed us As far as I know there has been no effort to measure charity which would be almost impossible given the countless examples and the anonymous nature of much of it. So, it's therefore quite impossible to say who contributes more."

"The United States is the most generous nation in the world, according to the World Giving Index 2011, published by the U.K.-based Charities Aid Foundation. The study surveyed three self-reported giving behaviors—giving money, volunteering time, and helping strangers—among some 150,000 people in 153 countries. Many of its findings are quite interesting. If anything, it understates American generosity by obscuring how much Americans give, either absolutely or per capita as a proportion of income. Of the seven most generous nations on earth, all but one (the Netherlands) are Anglophonic. There does not appear to be a strong correlation between prosperity and generosity: Singapore, ranked 3rd in 2010 GDP per capita by the International Monetary Fund, is the 91st most generous nation on earth, while Hong Kong, ranked 7th in GDP per capita, came in as the 11th most generous. Australasia is the world’s most generous region, barely edging out North America, while Eastern Europe is the least generous. One finding is especially encouraging. The proportion of respondents engaged in giving behaviors increased slightly between 2010 and 2011. Despite the global economic turmoil, the world, it appears, is becoming more charitable.

American generosity, however, is not a recent trend but a long established tradition, as Philanthropy Roundtable president, Adam Meyerson, discusses with the Wall Street Journal."
Source: http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/topic/in_the_news/the_world_of_philanthropy

That's one.

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