Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

WARNING: I have to report this story, but I must caution you that the video it refers to is extremely graphic. If you watch it, it could give you nightmares. I’m very serious about that.

The video is the creation of the pro-life group Choice42. It’s called “The Procedure,” and it’s narrated by Kevin Sorbo. It’s based on the real-life testimony of a medical professional who quit his job after he had to assist in an abortion and was traumatized by what he witnessed. The short film features realistic animation that the producers say was created “in secret by top-level Hollywood animators,” who no doubt fear they’ll never work again if it’s discovered that they did anything pro-life.

The video recreates what the narrator saw on the ultrasound: a second trimester baby girl in the womb recoiling in fear and writhing in pain as the abortionist rips her apart limb-by-limb. The animation is meant to humanize the baby in the womb, and it does. Not in a misleading way, but in an accurate way that shows viewers this is not a “clump of cells,” it’s the ritual dismemberment of a live human being. As I said, it’s extremely graphic and disturbing. You have to have a very strong stomach to watch it, and even then, it will break your heart.

But in an era when so many people use fuzzy euphemisms like “choice,” “women’s health” and “reproductive healthcare” to obscure what they're defending, or try to shout down anyone who speaks the truth, this is a powerful gut-punch of reality about what abortion really is.

Peaver Bogart Loc: Montana

I wish all women (and men) would watch that video.

proud republican Loc: RED CALIFORNIA

Absolutely sad ...😪😪😪

Rose42

Sickening that anyone could do that.

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

I didn’t get very far…..I can’t do it! I’ve seen the pictures of aborted babies! That’s enough for this old lady! I’ve helped our dogs and cats give birth when they needed help….I’ve help pull calves!…….some animals lived, some didn’t! But babies! How can anyone murder the most precious miracle gift of all……..a child……a baby!

I can’t help but think if women were forced to watch a real abortion, that they would realize what they’re doing! If they don’t want the baby adoption is always a possible positive solution!

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

People are sick...
Ignorance is no excuse...

Forkbassman Loc: Missouri

There is coming the DAY of the LORD & many will be judged.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Parky, you have my utmost respect for making this available to anyone in doubt that "pro-choice" is a position that applauds and supports the most torturous vile murder of the innocent.

A human baby is the most precious and most defenseless of those who are created in God's image.

Anyone who sanctions it in any way should not do so in the name of Christianity.

The governor of the state of California has placed giant billboards in major cities across the US advertising California as an "Abortion Sanctuary State" offering airfare to women who wish to avail themselves of the service of Abortion within the state of California.

The U.S. government his been the largest purchaser of aborted baby parts for their laboratory experiments.

https://www.cal-catholic.com/us-government-bought-body-parts-of-dismembered-babies-for-experimentation/

"In April of 2021, Legal watchdog group Judicial Watch released new revelations about the U.S. government’s involvement in purchasing the bodies and body parts of aborted babies for research in nearly 600 pages of documents. They detailed the efforts of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to buy aborted babies’ bodies in order to test experimental drugs and create “humanized” mice.

Government officials often sought babies killed as late as 24 weeks gestation, by which time many unborn children are viable outside of the womb. The contract between the government and a fetal parts company investigated by Judicial Watch was terminated  by the Trump administration in 2018.

Between 2012 and 2018, the FDA spent tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars to buy aborted babies from Advanced Bioscience Resources (ABR) a notorious California-based company that specializes in trafficking aborted babies’ bodies. ABR is known for buying potentially illegally harvested body parts from Planned Parenthood and has been probed by Congress."

It is all the most hellish system of human sacrifice to Baal, and it was the law of the land for 49 years, 1973-2022.

Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile

The Will of God will not be denied. These murdered innocents will have eternal life, as God desires for us all.

And what will become of the fathers, mothers and abortionists? Their victims, being conformed to Christ, will forgive them and ask the Lord to likewise forgive them and lead them to Heaven.

Well, Catholic teaching is that all must be washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb to enter into eternal life. We must be purged of our sinful nature and experience perfect contrition. We must see and experience the damage our sins have caused.

I suspect they will witness the grisly murder of their child. Their child who now stands with them in Purgatory, anxiously awaiting the Peace which Surpasseth Understanding.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

Would you be so kind as to point out where in the bible Purgatory is mentioned. And trust me the place where Abraham and Lazarus were is empty now and will be forever more (Ephesians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 5:8).

Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile

Purgatory is not so much a place as it is a process or an event. At the moment of our death most of us still have an attachment to sin, a tendency to sin, a concupiscence. We must be "purged " of this inherent defect when we "cross over", we must not carry this burden into heaven. Jesus provides the Way for this to happen by His Death and Resurrection, which washes us clean in His Precious Blood. It may seem to be instantaneous to us in the temporal world, but in the timelessness of eternity we apparently have the obligation or opportunity to co-operate with Christ in our redemption. To ask Him to create in us a contrite heart. True contrition is an integral part of justification.

There is a great preponderance of evidence, some of it empirical, that this is the way it works. As for Biblical reference of the soul being washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb, to the point of being totally free from sin, the sinful tendency "burned away for good" as it were, I will Google and post again. It's probably in the writing of St. Paul as I recall.

Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile

1 Corinthians 3:15, 2 Maccabees 12: 41-46, Timothy 1:18, Mathew 12:32, Luke 23:43, Hebrews 12:29

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Purgatory and 2 Maccabees 12:39-45
by Luke Wayne, Carm.org

The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory teaches that people who die while in God’s grace but who are not sufficiently purified of their sinfulness to enter God’s presence must undergo a time of purification through temporary suffering in the torments of purgatory. Unlike hell, purgatory is not a final judgment on the wicked but rather a finite period of purging for the insufficiently righteous. It is a place where one suffers for one’s own remaining sin before entering into heavenly bliss.

Such a doctrine would contradict the Bible by implying that Christ’s sufferings were insufficient to sanctify the believer, and so the issue is of the greatest importance. Roman Catholics will often claim that purgatory is affirmed even before the time of the New Testament in the Jewish Apocryphal book of 2 Maccabees. Contrary to Roman Catholic dogma, the Apocrypha should not be considered authentic Scripture, so finding the doctrine of purgatory there would not grant it biblical authority.

If the claim that 2 Maccabees teaches purgatory were correct, however, this would at least demonstrate the idea of Purgatory to be an ancient tradition rather than a late innovation developed centuries after the time of the New Testament, as it otherwise appears to be. Unfortunately for the Roman Catholic apologist, however, the passage in 2 Maccabees doesn’t say anything about purgatory, nor does it in any way imply the Roman Catholic dogma.

In the passage, the Jewish leader Judas Maccabeus leads his army into battle. God grants them victory, though some of Judas’ men were struck down by the enemy. When during the preparation for burial, they discover that each of the dead was secretly an idolater who was wearing amulets of devotion to pagan gods under their clothes:

“Then under the tunic of each one of the dead, they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out,” (2 Maccabees 12:40-42a).

The relevance of this passage to the discussion begins here, as the Jews pray to God to blot out the sins of men who have already died. To someone reading with Roman Catholic assumptions in place, the mention of people praying about the sins of the unrepentant dead can only be a reference to the doctrine of purgatory. Already, however, there are details here that do not fit the Roman Catholic doctrine. Purgatory is only for those who have died in God’s grace. If someone dies while guilty of a mortal sin for which they have made no absolution, they die outside of God’s grace and under His wrath. They will not receive purification in purgatory. They will be justly punished in hell.

Roman Catholic teaching regards willful idolatry committed in full knowledge of God’s moral law to be a mortal sin. The passage is clear that these were not ignorant pagans. They were Jews who knew that what they were doing was forbidden by God’s law. These men died in unrepentant, willful idolatry and active devotion to false gods. Therefore, on Roman Catholic teaching, they died outside of God’s grace. That they were under God’s wrath is further exemplified by the repeated emphasis on the death of these men as a direct judgment from God on them for their sin.

“The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen,” (2 Maccabees 12:42b).

So, even in the situation presented in the narrative, we see that this story does not fit in the context of the Roman Catholic teaching of purgatory. Further, the mere act of praying that God would forgive a dead person’s sins does not imply that there is a place in which that person temporarily suffers to pay for their sins before being allowed into heavenly bliss. The passage goes on to explain itself more fully:

“He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.”

Judas Maccabeus collects money from all the men in his army. They send the money to Jerusalem to buy the appropriate sacrificial animals to make offerings for the atonement of the sin of these fallen soldiers. Why? According to the text, it is because of the expectation of a future resurrection. It is not because these men were presently confined to the sufferings of purgatory and hoping for release. Not only is there no indication that any such consideration ever entered the mind of either Judas or the author of the book, but there is a clear statement of exactly what was in mind. Judas wanted these men to share in the reward of the righteous on the day of resurrection. He was not considering the present reality of their death and any suffering their souls might currently be enduring. His focus was the future hope of their physical life.

What’s more, Judas’ action doesn’t imply that these men’s sin would eventually be atoned for by their own sufferings in purgatory. Instead, Judas sought to atone for them through temple sacrifices. The text praises this as a noble act because it embodies Judas’ faithful hope in the day of resurrection. It speaks of a splendid reward for “those who fall asleep in godliness.” Judas desired for his men to share in this reward, and so he prayed and made offerings in hope that “they might be delivered from their sin.” If they are not, then they will face judgment rather than reward when the resurrection comes.

Thus, this isn’t talking about purgatory. It reports the act of a general who loved his men and believed in the resurrection of the dead, and so he offered atoning sacrifices at the temple in hopes that God might accept them, forgive these men, and grant them eternal life and reward instead of a future of suffering. His hope was not to shorten their stay in some form of purgatory but rather to mediate their release from sin, death, and hell.

If this points to any New Testament teaching at all, it points forward to the true and ultimate atoning sacrifice of Jesus Himself, who offered His own life at Jerusalem for the sins of many, even many who had died before He came. This text preserves a Jewish tradition that God might accept a sacrifice from the righteous on behalf of the wicked rebel who can make no offering of his own. In as much as there is any truth to that hope, it is fulfilled in Christ. Christ was the only truly righteous person, and all who are in Adam are dead idolaters without any hope in ourselves for salvation or life to come.

Judas wanted his offering to count for his men. He wanted to make atonement at the temple in their place. Thus, what we find in this old Jewish tradition is not a belief in purgatory. What we find instead is a belief in the possibility of vicarious, substitutionary atonement. Even the apocryphal 2 Maccabees doesn’t teach that the dead can be purged of sin through their own purgatorial suffering. It does express a hope that maybe a righteous person can atone on the helpless sinner’s behalf.

What the true Scriptures show us, however, is that neither the nobility of a man like Judas Maccabeus, the value of his silver, nor the blood of the sacrificial animals he bought is truly enough to atone for sins. At best, they point as an imperfect parable to the only thing that really is enough: Jesus Christ and His all-sufficient offering of His own perfect self once-for-all, on the cross of Calvary.

Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile

In Collosians 1:24 St. Paul implies that the only thing lacking in Christ's suffering is his participation in it.

And another facet of this discussion is how does our particular judgement and final judgement fit into all this?

Anyway, if I am wrong to lean towards the ancient Judeo-Catholic view on what awaits us at the moment of death I trust in Jesus to take me, forgive me and correct me. No harm done. But if I am right I joyfully will endure the purgation I need to enter the Eternal Kingdom of Heaven.

Thank you Parky and Z for pursuing this fascinating topic. I hope we will all meet in Heaven!

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Amen🙏