One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main
Lip Service
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
Jan 25, 2020 13:14:13   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
slatten49 wrote:
As Congress moves toward a possible formal impeachment of President Donald Trump, they should consider words spoken at the Constitutional Convention, when the Founders explained that impeachment was intended to have many important purposes, not just removing a president from office.

A critical debate took place on July 20, 1787, which resulted in adding the impeachment clause to the U.S. Constitution. Benjamin Franklin, the oldest and probably wisest delegate at the Convention, said that when the president falls under suspicion, a “regular and peaceable inquiry” is needed.

Statements were made at the Constitutional Convention explaining that the Founders viewed impeachment as a regular practice with three purposes:

1) To remind both the country and the president that he is not above the law
2) To deter abuses of power
3) To provide a fair and reliable method to resolve suspicions about misconduct.

The Convention delegates repeatedly agreed with the assertion by George Mason of Virginia, that “no point is of more importance … than the right of impeachment” because no one is “above justice.”

One of the Founders’ greatest fears was that the president would abuse his power. George Mason described the president as the “man who can commit the most extensive injustice.” James Madison thought the president might “pervert his administration into a scheme of [stealing public funds] or oppression or betray his trust to foreign powers.” Edmund Randolph, governor of Virginia, said the president “will have great opportunitys of abusing his power; particularly in time of war when the military force, and in some respects the public money will be in his hands.”

Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania worried that the president “may be bribed by a greater interest to betray his trust and no one would say that we ought to expose ourselves to the danger of seeing [him] in foreign pay.” James Madison, himself a future president, said that in the case of the president, “corruption was within the compass of probable events … and might be fatal to the Republic.”

William Davie of North Carolina argued that impeachment was “an essential security for the good behaviour” of the president; otherwise, “he will spare no efforts or means whatever to get himself re-elected.” Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts pointed out that a good president will not worry about impeachment, but a “bad one ought to be kept in fear.”

Until the very last week of the Convention, the Founders’ design was for the impeachment process to start in the House of Representatives and conclude with trial in the Supreme Court. It was not until Sept. 8, 1787, that the Convention voted to give the Senate instead the power to conduct impeachment trials.

This is clear evidence that the Convention at first wanted to combine the authority and resources of the House of Representatives to conduct the impeachment investigation – a body they called “the grand Inquest of this Nation” – with the fairness and power exemplified by trial in a court.

Even though trial of impeachments was moved from the Supreme Court to the Senate, Congress can still draw on the example of court procedures to accomplish an effective inquiry, especially if they are trying to get information from uncooperative subjects. In many of the investigations that are now part of the House’s impeachment inquiry, the Trump administration has refused to hand over documents and blocked officials from testifying to Congress.

The Constitution makes clear that impeachment is not a criminal prosecution: “Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office.” If impeachment trials had remained at the Supreme Court, the Court could therefore have consulted the rules it has approved for civil cases. It makes sense that when the Convention at the last minute decided Congress would have complete power over impeachment, the delegates intended Congress would have at least the same powers the Supreme Court would have exercised.

In civil cases, courts have powerful tools for dealing with someone who blocks access to the very information needed to judge the allegations against him. The most commonly known method is the rule that says that once a person is legally served with a lawsuit against them, they must respond to the complaint. If they don’t, the court can enter a judgment against them based on the allegations in the complaint. But there are other processes as well.

One court tool that could easily be adapted to the impeachment process comes from the federal rules of civil procedure. In a process called “request for admission,” one party to a lawsuit can give their opponents a list of detailed factual allegations with a demand for a response.

If the party does not respond, the court can treat each allegation as if it were true, and proceed accordingly. If the respondent denies one or more particular allegations, there is a follow-up procedure called a request for production, demanding any documents in their possession or control supporting the denial. If the respondent refuses, again the court has the power to order that the alleged fact be taken as true.

In an impeachment process against President Donald Trump, the House of Representatives could present the president with a request for admission to the following two simple factual statements, which could be inferred from a whistleblower complaint:

1) “In July 2019 President Trump personally issued instructions to suspend all U.S. security assistance to Ukraine.”
2) “President Trump issued these instructions with the intent to pressure the government of Ukraine to conduct a formal investigation of Hunter Biden and his father Joe Biden.”

The House could give Trump a brief amount of time to respond, including providing any evidence that might disprove the allegations. If he refused to respond, or if he denied but refused to produce supporting documentation, the House could assume the set of alleged facts to be true and include them in articles of impeachment. Then the House could vote and, depending on the outcome of that vote, the matter would then proceed to the Senate for trial.

Congress could engage in a long, drawn-out battle trying to use its oversight and subpoena powers to force various executive branch officials to release documents or testify about what they saw, heard and did. Or they could try this simple and quick procedure, which does not require the cooperation of the Department of Justice or court action.

Benjamin Franklin told his fellow delegates the story of a recent dispute that had greatly troubled the Dutch Republic. One of the Dutch leaders, William V, the Prince of Orange, was suspected to have secretly sabotaged a critical alliance with France. The Dutch had no impeachment process and thus no way to conduct “a regular examination” of these allegations. These suspicions mounted, giving rise to “to the most violent animosities & contentions.”

The moral to Franklin’s story? If Prince William had “been impeachable, a regular & peaceable inquiry would have taken place.” The prince would, “if guilty, have been duly punished — if innocent, restored to the confidence of the public.”

Franklin concluded that impeachment was a process that could be “favorable” to the president, saying it is the best way to provide for “the regular punishment of the Executive when his misconduct should deserve it and for his honorable acquittal when he should be unjustly accused.”
As Congress moves toward a possible formal impeach... (show quote)


Hamilton warned of the “greatest danger” that the decision to move forward with impeachment will “be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties than the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.” He worried that the tools of impeachment would be wielded by the “most cunning or most numerous factions” and lack the “requisite neutrality toward those whose conduct would be the subject of scrutiny.”

It is almost as if this Founding Father were looking down at the House vote from heaven and describing what transpired this week. Impeachment is an extraordinary tool to be used only when the constitutional criteria are met. These criteria are limited and include only “treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.” Hamilton described these as being “of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated political, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself.”

His use of the term “political” has been widely misunderstood in history. It does not mean that the process of impeachment and removal should be political in the partisan sense. Hamilton distinctly distinguished between the nature of the constitutional crimes, denoting them as political, while insisting that the process for impeachment and removal must remain scrupulously neutral and nonpartisan among members of Congress.

Thus, no impeachment should ever move forward without bipartisan support. That is a tall order in our age of hyperpartisan politics in which party loyalty leaves little room for neutrality.

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 13:17:11   #
Gatsby
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
I am glad you brought that up. It would appear to me that the founders felt that impeachment should not be partisan else it will become a political tool and not what it was intended to be.


Impeachment is a well laid trap for those who would abuse the authority and power of position:

Both in its use, and its abuse. Republicans learned that lesson 2 decades ago.

Democrats appear to need a refresher course, scheduled for November 3rd, 2020.

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 13:21:03   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Gatsby wrote:
Impeachment is a well laid trap for those who would abuse the authority and power of position:

Both in its use, and its abuse. Republicans learned that lesson 2 decades ago.

Democrats appear to need a refresher course, scheduled for November 3rd, 2020.


Agree!

Reply
 
 
Jan 25, 2020 13:51:34   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
Hamilton warned of the “greatest danger” that the decision to move forward with impeachment will “be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties than the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.” He worried that the tools of impeachment would be wielded by the “most cunning or most numerous factions” and lack the “requisite neutrality toward those whose conduct would be the subject of scrutiny.”

It is almost as if this Founding Father were looking down at the House vote from heaven and describing what transpired this week. Impeachment is an extraordinary tool to be used only when the constitutional criteria are met. These criteria are limited and include only “treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.” Hamilton described these as being “of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated political, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself.”

His use of the term “political” has been widely misunderstood in history. It does not mean that the process of impeachment and removal should be political in the partisan sense. Hamilton distinctly distinguished between the nature of the constitutional crimes, denoting them as political, while insisting that the process for impeachment and removal must remain scrupulously neutral and nonpartisan among members of Congress.

Thus, no impeachment should ever move forward without bipartisan support. That is a tall order in our age of hyper-partisan politics in which party loyalty leaves little room for neutrality.
Hamilton warned of the “greatest danger” that the ... (show quote)

Hamilton was a wise, talented & multi-faceted Founder. His death in a dual with Aaron Burr short-changed a young nation of his many talents...

Alexander Hamilton (January 11, 1755 or 1757 – July 12, 1804) was an American statesman, politician, legal scholar, military commander, lawyer, banker, and economist. He was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. He was an influential interpreter and promoter of the U.S. Constitution, as well as the founder of the nation's financial system, the Federalist Party, the United States Coast Guard, and the New York Post newspaper. As the first Secretary of the Treasury, Hamilton was the main author of the economic policies of George Washington's administration. He took the lead in the Federal government's funding of the states' debts, as well as establishing a national bank, a system of tariffs, and friendly trade relations with Britain. His vision included a strong central government led by a vigorous executive branch, a strong commercial economy, a national bank and support for manufacturing, and a strong military. Thomas Jefferson was his leading opponent, arguing for agrarianism and smaller government.

A side-note: We seem in accord with the subject and direction of this thread.

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 14:27:29   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
slatten49 wrote:
Hamilton was a wise, talented & multi-faceted Founder. His death in a dual with Aaron Burr short-changed a young nation of his many talents...

Alexander Hamilton (January 11, 1755 or 1757 – July 12, 1804) was an American statesman, politician, legal scholar, military commander, lawyer, banker, and economist. He was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. He was an influential interpreter and promoter of the U.S. Constitution, as well as the founder of the nation's financial system, the Federalist Party, the United States Coast Guard, and the New York Post newspaper. As the first Secretary of the Treasury, Hamilton was the main author of the economic policies of George Washington's administration. He took the lead in the Federal government's funding of the states' debts, as well as establishing a national bank, a system of tariffs, and friendly trade relations with Britain. His vision included a strong central government led by a vigorous executive branch, a strong commercial economy, a national bank and support for manufacturing, and a strong military. Thomas Jefferson was his leading opponent, arguing for agrarianism and smaller government.

A side-note: We seem in accord with the subject and direction of this thread.
Hamilton was a wise, talented & multi-faceted ... (show quote)


Cool!

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 15:35:39   #
Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
They ALL say no.


I looked it up and a CBS reporter is supposed to have gotten it from White house source who is un named. I must assume it is untrue. I do believe though that Republicans are afraid of trump because he will do every thing he can to destroy the careers of all who oppose him.

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 15:38:01   #
Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon
 
Wonttakeitanymore wrote:
Is it true that ovomit was an illegal alien? Look it up!


You know better than that

Reply
 
 
Jan 25, 2020 15:41:18   #
Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon
 
slatten49 wrote:
The state of partisanship being as it is within both houses of congress, the following observation regarding the impeachment hearings seems to hold up: A lot of lip service gets paid to being honest, but no one really wants to hear (much less align with) 'honesty' unless what's being said represents their party line.

Congress truly represents the American people.
The state of partisanship being as it is within bo... (show quote)


People would rather believe a sensational lie apparently.

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 15:57:03   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
Coos Bay Tom wrote:
People would rather believe a sensational lie apparently.

Many OPPers reflect George Costanza's infamous quote, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 18:58:36   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Coos Bay Tom wrote:
I looked it up and a CBS reporter is supposed to have gotten it from White house source who is un named. I must assume it is untrue. I do believe though that Republicans are afraid of trump because he will do every thing he can to destroy the careers of all who oppose him.


What do you base that on? He can't fire an elected official but yes, he might campaign against them for a different candidate. Politics. The dems do that too.

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 21:07:45   #
bdamage Loc: My Bunker
 
slatten49 wrote:
The state of partisanship being as it is within both houses of congress, the following observation regarding the impeachment hearings seems to hold up: A lot of lip service gets paid to being honest, but no one really wants to hear (much less align with) 'honesty' unless what's being said represents their party line.

Congress truly represents the American people.
The state of partisanship being as it is within bo... (show quote)


Here's a good example.....



Reply
 
 
Jan 25, 2020 22:27:05   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
bdamage wrote:
Here's a good example.....

Once again, the King of Memes strikes

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 22:36:02   #
Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
What do you base that on? He can't fire an elected official but yes, he might campaign against them for a different candidate. Politics. The dems do that too.


Every body knows the character of trump and yes he will campaign against them

Reply
Jan 25, 2020 22:37:47   #
Coos Bay Tom Loc: coos bay oregon
 
slatten49 wrote:
Many OPPers reflect George Costanza's infamous quote, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”



Reply
Jan 25, 2020 23:18:38   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Coos Bay Tom wrote:
Every body knows the character of trump and yes he will campaign against them


Politics.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2024 IDF International Technologies, Inc.