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The beauty of a Green New Deal is that it would pay for itself
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Sep 18, 2019 16:20:53   #
Lt. Rob Polans ret.
 
Kevyn wrote:
Governments around the world don’t need to raise taxes in order to transform their economies and avert climate disaster

In September 2007, as credit was “crunched” and the financial crisis began to unfold, a group of economists and environmentalists, including the future Green party MP Caroline Lucas, met regularly in my small London flat. Supping on comfort food and wine, we argued furiously while drafting a plan we hoped would transform the economy and protect the ecosystem. We called it the Green New Deal. Little did we know that the ideas we seeded then would be adopted by a shooting star of the Democratic party, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, as part of her bid for a New York congressional seat in 2018.

Fast forward to 2019 and the Green New Deal is now at the centre of the 2020 US presidential campaign. Bernie Sanders last week declared the climate crisis a national emergency and launched his version of the deal – a $16.3 trillion plan that includes massive investment in renewable energy, green infrastructure for climate resilience and money for research.

Sanders is vague about his financing plans. He suggests that cuts in military spending could generate cash, but also proposes a rise in tax for big corporations. These are welcome proposals, but our group has one quibble. Big transformational projects are not financed from taxation. Kennedy’s moonshot wasn’t, nor is Britain’s HS2 rail project. Suggesting that the deal can be paid for through tax (even from big corporations) will rightly raise suspicions. Ordinary taxpayers will assume – as they did during the US debate about inheritance tax (reframed by the right as “death taxes”) – that the burden of such a carbon levy will fall instead on their shoulders.

So where should the money come from? There are fundamentally only two sources of financing. The first is borrowing (credit). This is achieved by applying for a loan, or issuing a bond. The second is existing savings.

To raise the money for a green deal, governments would have to draw on their equivalent of a giant credit card, but would also be able to take advantage of investment by savers. Thankfully, the creation of millions of jobs will generate the income and tax revenues needed to repay any borrowing. As Sanders argues, the whole thing will pay for itself.

First, the borrowing: credit issued by a commercial bank, as we all know from spending on our credit cards, does not draw on our existing deposits or savings. Instead it is a promise to pay in the future. OECD governments (backed by millions of taxpayers) are the most trusted borrowers, which is why their promises (bonds) are in such demand. Savings, by contrast, already exist – in bank deposits and savings accounts.

When a government borrows, as it has for financing HS2, that leads to investment and the creation of paid jobs in public and private sectors, and to private sector profits. Both employment income and profits generate tax revenues. Tax revenues are, therefore, a consequence of spending or investment – and can be used to pay back the borrowing. They need not be used directly to finance that investment.

During the second world war commercial banks provided credit to the government in the form of Treasury deposit receipts. They could do so again. But the government also has its own bank, the Bank of England, which issues credit, too (currently known as quantitative easing, or QE), and could use this to purchase government bonds.

To appeal to savers, the government could issue bonds to be repaid over different time periods – short, medium or long-term. These would attract pension funds and insurance companies, but also different kinds of individual savers. They would be able to invest their money in transforming the economy away from fossil fuels, while receiving a regular income in the form of interest. For this to happen, governments would have to be “in the driving seat” when it comes to issuing bonds. Currently they’re more passive – relying almost entirely on demand from private capital markets.

As you can see, this system of financing is entirely doable. However, to succeed, our plan demands a decisive rupture from the neoliberal consensus of pairing expansionary monetary policy (QE) with contractionary fiscal policy (austerity).

The original Green New Deal group continues to meet, to argue, to indulge in good food and wine, and to plot the defeat of that consensus. Later this week, Caroline Lucas, together with Clive Lewis MP, will launch a bill embracing key principles of the plan. From small beginnings, a great change could soon be on its way.

• Ann Pettifor is the author of The Case for the Green New Deal, published by Verso
Governments around the world don’t need to raise t... (show quote)


The*beauty of the Green New Deal* is this. Look up Marx's old programs you'll find it in there. So new? Eh eh. Green? Like the Paris Accord it's a scam. You want no CO2 WHICH MEANS NO PLANTS MEANING NO CATTLE THEN PEOPLE. And liberals aren't somehow exempt from this. Yeah, Obama promised change too and you've seen what happened.

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 19:03:06   #
crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island
 
MarvinSussman wrote:
Utter nonsense! Neither bank credit nor private loans are necessary for Congressional spending on the Green New Deal! All that is needed is an act of Congress and the President's signature or an override vote. The Treasury sends checks to contractors and the work gets done provided only that physical resources are available within the time required. That's the way aircraft carriers are built.

Income and savings are thereby generated and the IRS collects whatever taxes it can. Any deficit generates bond auctions to match any deficit. There are always enough savings generated to buy the offered bonds. Proof? WW II war bonds gave us nothing but prosperity! Same for the Green New Deal!

Sanders and Warren should speak to Dr. Stephanie Kelton who teaches economics at Stony Point, L.I., SUNY. She will explain Modern Money Theory (MMT). Enough of this nonsense!
Utter nonsense! Neither bank credit nor private lo... (show quote)



MMT is nothing but warmed over Keynesian deficit spending and monetizing the debt nonsense. It has been been thoroughly debunked by Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard and Ludwig von Mises.

Von Mises completely debunked the myth that WWII bonds gave us the post war prosperity. In fact in the early Truman years there was a marked recession, as there always is post-war and the prosperity was disguised inflation.

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 19:09:58   #
crazylibertarian Loc: Florida by way of New York & Rhode Island
 
bestpal38 wrote:
No, he copied, and pasted, and noticed it was pro liberal nonsense, so he posted it. Probably didn't even read it.


Kevyn astonishes me. He has to really be a team that surfs the internet and then presents rumors, half-truths and opinions as facts. It's also astonishing that he doesn't tire of having people destroy his postings.
"Better to say nothing and look stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Reply
 
 
Sep 18, 2019 19:38:42   #
77Reaganite Loc: Athens, GA, United States
 
crazylibertarian wrote:
Kevyn astonishes me. He has to really be a team that surfs the internet and then presents rumors, half-truths and opinions as facts. It's also astonishing that he doesn't tire of having people destroy his postings.
"Better to say nothing and look stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


He's not even a troll he actually believes what he say. Is a commie just like the Democratic party is people do you realize it's the hundredth anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. Reason why I bring this up what did Stalin and Lenin do they overthrew the czar and assassinated them. Does anyone see the correlation between the Bolshevik Revolution and the Russia collusion delusion I do they tried to have a coup d'etat against this president but it did not work they try to take him out and did not work they're still trying to take him out but it does not work you want to know why it doesn't work it's because the Democrats are dumb when it comes to history and most of us Republicans know our history so I'm pretty sure you've already put the dots together that's exactly what they tried to do was staged a stalinist style takeover of the government. That right there let you know they're commies they're not socialists they believe in totalitarianism which is communism it's not socialism. Spread the word my friend I got their playbook. Game set match and checkmate because this whole time I was trying to think of where in history have I seen this before then it dawned on me the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia that's what this reminds me of look at how they talk the same way that Lenin and Stalin talk and just like President Putin called them puppets are useful idiots! See they don't realize if they give the government what they really want they don't realize they're going to die or they're going to be thrown in a gulag never to be seen again but they can go on thinking that they're going to have reign over so I got news for them we stop them in their tracks.

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 19:50:44   #
son of witless
 
Kevyn wrote:
Governments around the world don’t need to raise taxes in order to transform their economies and avert climate disaster

In September 2007, as credit was “crunched” and the financial crisis began to unfold, a group of economists and environmentalists, including the future Green party MP Caroline Lucas, met regularly in my small London flat. Supping on comfort food and wine, we argued furiously while drafting a plan we hoped would transform the economy and protect the ecosystem. We called it the Green New Deal. Little did we know that the ideas we seeded then would be adopted by a shooting star of the Democratic party, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, as part of her bid for a New York congressional seat in 2018.

Fast forward to 2019 and the Green New Deal is now at the centre of the 2020 US presidential campaign. Bernie Sanders last week declared the climate crisis a national emergency and launched his version of the deal – a $16.3 trillion plan that includes massive investment in renewable energy, green infrastructure for climate resilience and money for research.

Sanders is vague about his financing plans. He suggests that cuts in military spending could generate cash, but also proposes a rise in tax for big corporations. These are welcome proposals, but our group has one quibble. Big transformational projects are not financed from taxation. Kennedy’s moonshot wasn’t, nor is Britain’s HS2 rail project. Suggesting that the deal can be paid for through tax (even from big corporations) will rightly raise suspicions. Ordinary taxpayers will assume – as they did during the US debate about inheritance tax (reframed by the right as “death taxes”) – that the burden of such a carbon levy will fall instead on their shoulders.

So where should the money come from? There are fundamentally only two sources of financing. The first is borrowing (credit). This is achieved by applying for a loan, or issuing a bond. The second is existing savings.

To raise the money for a green deal, governments would have to draw on their equivalent of a giant credit card, but would also be able to take advantage of investment by savers. Thankfully, the creation of millions of jobs will generate the income and tax revenues needed to repay any borrowing. As Sanders argues, the whole thing will pay for itself.

First, the borrowing: credit issued by a commercial bank, as we all know from spending on our credit cards, does not draw on our existing deposits or savings. Instead it is a promise to pay in the future. OECD governments (backed by millions of taxpayers) are the most trusted borrowers, which is why their promises (bonds) are in such demand. Savings, by contrast, already exist – in bank deposits and savings accounts.

When a government borrows, as it has for financing HS2, that leads to investment and the creation of paid jobs in public and private sectors, and to private sector profits. Both employment income and profits generate tax revenues. Tax revenues are, therefore, a consequence of spending or investment – and can be used to pay back the borrowing. They need not be used directly to finance that investment.

During the second world war commercial banks provided credit to the government in the form of Treasury deposit receipts. They could do so again. But the government also has its own bank, the Bank of England, which issues credit, too (currently known as quantitative easing, or QE), and could use this to purchase government bonds.

To appeal to savers, the government could issue bonds to be repaid over different time periods – short, medium or long-term. These would attract pension funds and insurance companies, but also different kinds of individual savers. They would be able to invest their money in transforming the economy away from fossil fuels, while receiving a regular income in the form of interest. For this to happen, governments would have to be “in the driving seat” when it comes to issuing bonds. Currently they’re more passive – relying almost entirely on demand from private capital markets.

As you can see, this system of financing is entirely doable. However, to succeed, our plan demands a decisive rupture from the neoliberal consensus of pairing expansionary monetary policy (QE) with contractionary fiscal policy (austerity).

The original Green New Deal group continues to meet, to argue, to indulge in good food and wine, and to plot the defeat of that consensus. Later this week, Caroline Lucas, together with Clive Lewis MP, will launch a bill embracing key principles of the plan. From small beginnings, a great change could soon be on its way.

• Ann Pettifor is the author of The Case for the Green New Deal, published by Verso
Governments around the world don’t need to raise t... (show quote)


" Supping on comfort food and wine, we argued furiously while drafting a plan we hoped would transform the economy and protect the ecosystem. "

I think a supper of Bourbon and Cocaine would have been more productive.

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 20:05:00   #
EmilyD
 
son of witless wrote:
" Supping on comfort food and wine, we argued furiously while drafting a plan we hoped would transform the economy and protect the ecosystem. "

I think a supper of Bourbon and Cocaine would have been more productive.


Translation: "After drinking several boxes of wine, we came up with the Green New Deal for a more productive ecosystem."

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 20:26:02   #
son of witless
 
EmilyD wrote:
Translation: "After drinking several boxes of wine, we came up with the Green New Deal for a more productive ecosystem."


All great decisions have been made after a night of heavy alcohol use. Many an evening I have sat around with my fellow old geezers, and after a few cases, we had solved every important problem, issue, and minor irritation that has ever bothered the human race. We were absolutely brilliant, just ask us. And by the end of the night we were feeling bipartisan all over the place.

That is what is wrong in Washington. Too much sobriety. If every session in the House and Senate in Washington was well supplied with Whiskey, Wine, Beer, and a few hookers something good would get done. No more partisan wrangling.

Reply
 
 
Sep 18, 2019 20:28:42   #
Tug484
 
son of witless wrote:
All great decisions have been made after a night of heavy alcohol use. Many an evening I have sat around with my fellow old geezers, and after a few cases, we had solved every important problem, issue, and minor irritation that has ever bothered the human race. We were absolutely brilliant, just ask us. And by the end of the night we were feeling bipartisan all over the place.

That is what is wrong in Washington. Too much sobriety. If every session in the House and Senate in Washington was well supplied with Whiskey, Wine, Beer, and a few hookers something good would get done. No more partisan wrangling.
All great decisions have been made after a night o... (show quote)


I think they already have too much of that.

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 20:44:11   #
son of witless
 
Tug484 wrote:
I think they already have too much of that.


No. They drink afterwards. They need to drink on the job. They can't be worse than when they are sober.

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 21:02:36   #
EmilyD
 
son of witless wrote:
All great decisions have been made after a night of heavy alcohol use. Many an evening I have sat around with my fellow old geezers, and after a few cases, we had solved every important problem, issue, and minor irritation that has ever bothered the human race. We were absolutely brilliant, just ask us. And by the end of the night we were feeling bipartisan all over the place.

That is what is wrong in Washington. Too much sobriety. If every session in the House and Senate in Washington was well supplied with Whiskey, Wine, Beer, and a few hookers something good would get done. No more partisan wrangling.
All great decisions have been made after a night o... (show quote)


Good idea! Then when they wake up the next day they won't remember any of the problems they "solved", and the world will be a better place!

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 21:09:36   #
Tug484
 
son of witless wrote:
No. They drink afterwards. They need to drink on the job. They can't be worse than when they are sober.


Probably not!
They sure aren't doing their job.

Reply
 
 
Sep 18, 2019 21:46:21   #
Ricktloml
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Sorry... Perhaps I am missing something...Not a big fan of accounting...But in the above mentioned scenario is it not still the tax payer's money that is being used?


The "green new deal" isn't green, isn't new, and isn't a deal. AOC's staff member admitted it wasn't about the environment, but restructuring the economy, it is the same promises made by socialists for over a 100 years that never work, and it is disastrous on all levels, especially for individual liberty.

Reply
Sep 18, 2019 23:45:34   #
Trumpnotthestormiestpres Loc: L.A.
 
As long as: taxpayers are cogs in the machine they can pay for anything.
Just imagine if money spent on aerospace was spent domestic homeless causes.

Reply
Sep 19, 2019 14:51:07   #
MR Mister Loc: Washington DC
 
Kevyn wrote:
Governments around the world don’t need to raise taxes in order to transform their economies and avert climate disaster

In September 2007, as credit was “crunched” and the financial crisis began to unfold, a group of economists and environmentalists, including the future Green party MP Caroline Lucas, met regularly in my small London flat. Supping on comfort food and wine, we argued furiously while drafting a plan we hoped would transform the economy and protect the ecosystem. We called it the Green New Deal. Little did we know that the ideas we seeded then would be adopted by a shooting star of the Democratic party, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, as part of her bid for a New York congressional seat in 2018.

Fast forward to 2019 and the Green New Deal is now at the centre of the 2020 US presidential campaign. Bernie Sanders last week declared the climate crisis a national emergency and launched his version of the deal – a $16.3 trillion plan that includes massive investment in renewable energy, green infrastructure for climate resilience and money for research.

Sanders is vague about his financing plans. He suggests that cuts in military spending could generate cash, but also proposes a rise in tax for big corporations. These are welcome proposals, but our group has one quibble. Big transformational projects are not financed from taxation. Kennedy’s moonshot wasn’t, nor is Britain’s HS2 rail project. Suggesting that the deal can be paid for through tax (even from big corporations) will rightly raise suspicions. Ordinary taxpayers will assume – as they did during the US debate about inheritance tax (reframed by the right as “death taxes”) – that the burden of such a carbon levy will fall instead on their shoulders.

So where should the money come from? There are fundamentally only two sources of financing. The first is borrowing (credit). This is achieved by applying for a loan, or issuing a bond. The second is existing savings.

To raise the money for a green deal, governments would have to draw on their equivalent of a giant credit card, but would also be able to take advantage of investment by savers. Thankfully, the creation of millions of jobs will generate the income and tax revenues needed to repay any borrowing. As Sanders argues, the whole thing will pay for itself.

First, the borrowing: credit issued by a commercial bank, as we all know from spending on our credit cards, does not draw on our existing deposits or savings. Instead it is a promise to pay in the future. OECD governments (backed by millions of taxpayers) are the most trusted borrowers, which is why their promises (bonds) are in such demand. Savings, by contrast, already exist – in bank deposits and savings accounts.

When a government borrows, as it has for financing HS2, that leads to investment and the creation of paid jobs in public and private sectors, and to private sector profits. Both employment income and profits generate tax revenues. Tax revenues are, therefore, a consequence of spending or investment – and can be used to pay back the borrowing. They need not be used directly to finance that investment.

During the second world war commercial banks provided credit to the government in the form of Treasury deposit receipts. They could do so again. But the government also has its own bank, the Bank of England, which issues credit, too (currently known as quantitative easing, or QE), and could use this to purchase government bonds.

To appeal to savers, the government could issue bonds to be repaid over different time periods – short, medium or long-term. These would attract pension funds and insurance companies, but also different kinds of individual savers. They would be able to invest their money in transforming the economy away from fossil fuels, while receiving a regular income in the form of interest. For this to happen, governments would have to be “in the driving seat” when it comes to issuing bonds. Currently they’re more passive – relying almost entirely on demand from private capital markets.

As you can see, this system of financing is entirely doable. However, to succeed, our plan demands a decisive rupture from the neoliberal consensus of pairing expansionary monetary policy (QE) with contractionary fiscal policy (austerity).

The original Green New Deal group continues to meet, to argue, to indulge in good food and wine, and to plot the defeat of that consensus. Later this week, Caroline Lucas, together with Clive Lewis MP, will launch a bill embracing key principles of the plan. From small beginnings, a great change could soon be on its way.

• Ann Pettifor is the author of The Case for the Green New Deal, published by Verso
Governments around the world don’t need to raise t... (show quote)



Your problem is you believe the BS your handler tells you.
Your unaware that anything a government does cost Tripple compared to the private sector does.
You can buy a hemmer in Lowes for $4.00, but the government pays $4000 or more for the same thing.
The people doing the buying are not doing the paying and have not a care in the world how much they pay. After all the government is printing the money and have endless amounts of it.
I bet you look at it the same way.

Reply
Sep 19, 2019 16:50:52   #
Sonny Magoo Loc: Where pot pie is boiled in a kettle
 
Kevyn wrote:
Governments around the world don’t need to raise taxes in order to transform their economies and avert climate disaster

In September 2007, as credit was “crunched” and the financial crisis began to unfold, a group of economists and environmentalists, including the future Green party MP Caroline Lucas, met regularly in my small London flat. Supping on comfort food and wine, we argued furiously while drafting a plan we hoped would transform the economy and protect the ecosystem. We called it the Green New Deal. Little did we know that the ideas we seeded then would be adopted by a shooting star of the Democratic party, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, as part of her bid for a New York congressional seat in 2018.

Fast forward to 2019 and the Green New Deal is now at the centre of the 2020 US presidential campaign. Bernie Sanders last week declared the climate crisis a national emergency and launched his version of the deal – a $16.3 trillion plan that includes massive investment in renewable energy, green infrastructure for climate resilience and money for research.

Sanders is vague about his financing plans. He suggests that cuts in military spending could generate cash, but also proposes a rise in tax for big corporations. These are welcome proposals, but our group has one quibble. Big transformational projects are not financed from taxation. Kennedy’s moonshot wasn’t, nor is Britain’s HS2 rail project. Suggesting that the deal can be paid for through tax (even from big corporations) will rightly raise suspicions. Ordinary taxpayers will assume – as they did during the US debate about inheritance tax (reframed by the right as “death taxes”) – that the burden of such a carbon levy will fall instead on their shoulders.

So where should the money come from? There are fundamentally only two sources of financing. The first is borrowing (credit). This is achieved by applying for a loan, or issuing a bond. The second is existing savings.

To raise the money for a green deal, governments would have to draw on their equivalent of a giant credit card, but would also be able to take advantage of investment by savers. Thankfully, the creation of millions of jobs will generate the income and tax revenues needed to repay any borrowing. As Sanders argues, the whole thing will pay for itself.

First, the borrowing: credit issued by a commercial bank, as we all know from spending on our credit cards, does not draw on our existing deposits or savings. Instead it is a promise to pay in the future. OECD governments (backed by millions of taxpayers) are the most trusted borrowers, which is why their promises (bonds) are in such demand. Savings, by contrast, already exist – in bank deposits and savings accounts.

When a government borrows, as it has for financing HS2, that leads to investment and the creation of paid jobs in public and private sectors, and to private sector profits. Both employment income and profits generate tax revenues. Tax revenues are, therefore, a consequence of spending or investment – and can be used to pay back the borrowing. They need not be used directly to finance that investment.

During the second world war commercial banks provided credit to the government in the form of Treasury deposit receipts. They could do so again. But the government also has its own bank, the Bank of England, which issues credit, too (currently known as quantitative easing, or QE), and could use this to purchase government bonds.

To appeal to savers, the government could issue bonds to be repaid over different time periods – short, medium or long-term. These would attract pension funds and insurance companies, but also different kinds of individual savers. They would be able to invest their money in transforming the economy away from fossil fuels, while receiving a regular income in the form of interest. For this to happen, governments would have to be “in the driving seat” when it comes to issuing bonds. Currently they’re more passive – relying almost entirely on demand from private capital markets.

As you can see, this system of financing is entirely doable. However, to succeed, our plan demands a decisive rupture from the neoliberal consensus of pairing expansionary monetary policy (QE) with contractionary fiscal policy (austerity).

The original Green New Deal group continues to meet, to argue, to indulge in good food and wine, and to plot the defeat of that consensus. Later this week, Caroline Lucas, together with Clive Lewis MP, will launch a bill embracing key principles of the plan. From small beginnings, a great change could soon be on its way.

• Ann Pettifor is the author of The Case for the Green New Deal, published by Verso
Governments around the world don’t need to raise t... (show quote)

If climate change was really a problem, I guess Obama ain't really buying it. ...unless he turns that new property into a windmill power station

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