One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main
So maybe god and the bible are NOT so pro life after all
Page <<first <prev 8 of 24 next> last>>
Sep 14, 2019 18:23:31   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Part Three
jack sequim wa wrote:
But in Romans 4, Abraham wasn’t the only personage that Paul used to exemplify saving faith from the Old Testament. He also pointed to David:

“5But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works, 7"Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin.” Romans 4:5-7
But in Romans 4, Abraham wasn’t the only personage... (show quote)


So, do you think it would be a good idea to take David’s actual walk and circumstances into consideration before jumping to false conclusions like you did with Abraham?

“And David's heart smote him after that he had… sinned greatly... And David spake unto the LORD… and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly... And Gad came that day to David, and said unto him, Go up, rear an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Araunah the Jebusite. And David, according to the saying of Gad, went up as the LORD commanded… And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the LORD was intreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel. -2 Samuel 24:10-25.
(See also 1 Sam. 16:2-5, 2 Sam. 6:12-14).

David built altars of sacrifice, by which works, he was able to appease God’s wrath. It wasn’t like David, or Abraham, or anyone else in the Old Testament was ever “saved” or justified without being obedient, according to their circumstance, to God.

The point is, we must not jump to conclusions based on presumptions when reading the Scriptures. We must understand the language of the Bible. And particularly, we must understand the context of the examples that are given to us for our object lessons. In one breath Paul describes "the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works", but in the very same passage he continues by reiterating the fact that Abraham's children in the faith are those "who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." -Romans 4:12

Thus the Bible does not consider walking in the commandments of God to be our works, but God's-

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” -Ephesians 2:10

God doesn’t walk the walk for us, He gives them to us for us to walk in. The only time this didn’t apply was in the Garden of Eden when God himself provided coats of skins to clothe Adam and Eve, but they still had to wear them, and we are never told whether or not they were saved. But we know the impact by what happened with Cain and Able. We know that Eve sinned by eating of the forbidden fruit. For that, God had to make clothes from skins of animals, requiring the death of some unnamed animal that Adam and Eve had been given dominion over. Blood had to be spilled, and that blood had to be applied, because, “According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.” Heb_9:22. Now, we know that this shedding of blood became mandatory, a must do, because after Adam and Eve had sons, then Cain tried to give an offering of the fruit of the ground, but Able offered of his flocks, in other words, blood. And what was God’s response? He had respect to Able and not to Cain and Cain became jealous and killed his brother. Apparently, there was something that Cain and Able “must” do, and Able did it but Cain didn’t. But what is noteworthy and important for us to remember, which the faith-alone dogma has to omit, is God’s response to Cain when he tried to offer up a sacrifice of his own description:

“6Yahweh said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why has the expression of your face fallen?7If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well , sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.” Genesis 4:6

According to God, the difference was in the doing or not doing. Why didn’t God tell Cain, “there is nothing a sinner can do, much less must do”? It’s because that would not be true and God doesn’t lie, like men do. So, we have the teaching, through the example of Cain, that shedding of blood is a must do. Not doing it is to not do well, and we are to rule over the sin that entices us to not do well. But more importantly, we have the Bible pointedly telling us that in Able’s case, offering a blood sacrifice was a work of faith:

By faith, Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous.” Heb 11:4

Abel and Cain both had a “must do”, which again, you’d have to omit to justify the “faith-alone” doctrine, but which the Bible calls “by faith”, and God honors and calls it “testimony” that he was “righteous.” I think it’s safe to say we ought to believe God’s testimony over man’s conclusions to the contrary.


Next, let’s talk about Noah. Would it be accurate to say of Noah, that God had clearly told him, “there is nothing a sinner can do, much less must do”? The idea is preposterous! Worse, it is a lie to say there was nothing Noah “must do” or “could do.” What if Noah hadn’t built the ark? Would God have told him, “oh, that’s okay, there’s nothing you could have done anyway. I know your heart and that is all that is required”? That is the subtle mockery that the “faith-alone” dogma-titions are making of God.

And why do we know God wouldn’t have said that? Well, look what Jesus said to those who decided they didn’t need to be baptized:

“But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves.” Luke 7:30

And this was a point in time when they were under the Mosaic law which said nothing about baptism; and yet they were being condemned as rejecting the counsel of God for not being baptized, which wasn’t even a commandment in their law! Was baptism then, a “must do” or not? It appears obvious that it was a must do. However, even though it was mandatory, it wouldn’t make them “righteous,” but it would make them “faithful.” How can I say or know that? Well, it’s because I’ve read what the Bible explains about baptism.

For that, let’s look how the NT explains Noah’s example of baptism to us:

“19... God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:19-21

By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared a ship for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.” Hebrews 11:7

So, what is it we learn about Noah building the ark: that it was a “must do” or that it was a “not necessary, but he could if he wanted to” kind of thing? It was clearly a “must do” thing. In fact, just like as with Cain and Able, it was the doing of that “must do” that “saved” him, and it is a type or teaching example to us of how baptism works with us. And in Hebrews, Noah building the ark was called “of faith”. Now, if it was a symbol of baptism which now saves us, according to Peter, was either the building of the ark or baptism optional? Obviously not. Therefore, is it hard not to see how far off track it is to say that throughout the Bible there was no “must do’s”?

Let’s get back to baptism during the period of Christ’s earthly ministry. At this point, most “Evangelicals” will point to the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39–43) and adamantly claim he didn’t need to be baptized. Well, how do they know that? Don’t they read the Bible? For it is written:

4“John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching the baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins. 5All the country of Judea and all those of Jerusalem went out to him. They were baptized by him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins.” Mark 1:4–5

The fact is, we don’t really know if the thief was or wasn’t baptized! But, if all were baptized, who’s to say the thief was not baptized? So, these Evangelicals would rather base their salvation on a thief on the cross, in an arbitrary situation, that they can interject their own opinions as doctrine into, rather than listen to what the apostles clearly proclaimed on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s death, burial and resurrection! “If you do good, won’t you be accepted, and if not, sin lies at the door.”

Keeping in mind, as noted above, that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God by not being baptized (Luke 7:30)... By their mutual rejection of the necessity of water baptism, even for those “under the law,” we see that those who use the thief on the cross as an excuse for not accepting the necessity of baptism for repentance have more in common with the Pharisees than they do with the actual, true believers! The believers, who did submit to baptism, declared, by that action, that God was just! How can I say this? Because of what our beloved apostle Paul wrote:

“3Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:3

This is an exclusive group, according to Paul. It only pertains to “all we who have been baptized into Jesus Christ.”

Continued in Part Four
(which I’ll work on tomorrow, which I’m sure you will happy about considering your last couple posts.)

P.S., “good Christian” women don’t use the devil’s method of bible interpretation.

Reply
Sep 14, 2019 18:32:33   #
Rose42
 
jack sequim wa wrote:
You twist so much instead of letting the word guide you.

The Pharisees lived by what? The Law, right?
Can any man keep the law? Do enough good works?
Your verses you post along with your good works dogma are not considering why Jesus said and why he used the Pharisees.

To say we can keep the law calls God a liar or to say We can do enough good works also calls God a liar.

Its to say the unscriptural ....Christian's can get to a point when they no longer break the commandments and have accomplished enough good works, then is when Gods grace and faith combined salvation.

If scriptural then God has given us a bad deal. What standard of measurement did God give, that one can know they have done enough good works.

Or

If we are not perfect and sin then how many good works outweighs the sin?

Or

Are you now without sin and doing good works?

I mean using good works as a part of salvation.
I was busy all month handling family business from home, i didn't hold a door for an old lady, I didn't go to church. How many good works count?
What good works count?

How can I measure good works?
If I am a home body and only do "a" good work every 4 months when i drive to the city for food and supplies, but what if I don't do a good work and it's time to drive home for another 4 months, should I not go home until I see opportunity to do a good work? If yes, then I need to see how to measure so I'll know if Im saved and where in Gods word is that? If no, then I have met my good work allocation and where in God's word can I find that? Is there a way for me to know that I am saved? When is not enough good words enough then? How can I know if zi have done enough Good works? Since God dosen't give us a way to know, then what?

I'm going to stick with what God gave us and not have these dilemmas

Jack
You twist so much instead of letting the word guid... (show quote)


Nice summation Jack. Especially the first sentence. Thinking one can stop sinning altogether is a very dangerous place to be. We have victory in Christ but we all stumble every now and then

Reply
Sep 14, 2019 18:34:26   #
bahmer
 
Rose42 wrote:
Nice summation Jack. Especially the first sentence. Thinking one can stop sinning altogether is a very dangerous place to be. We have victory in Christ but we all stumble every now and then


He is starting to remind me of Susanblange.

Reply
 
 
Sep 14, 2019 20:19:16   #
padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al
 
bahmer wrote:
You are almost as bad as Susanblange here in OPP.


He began ok on abortion but he certainly ran off the track. Rose presented him with a valid question to which we can all readily agree and yet he curiously failed to respond. Thanks be to God that Jesus will be our Judge and not the possessive "my Jesus" he relates to. Jesus is fully God and fully man and therefore thoroughly understands our fallen human nature and our propensity to sin, and He still gave up His life for us. Even St. Paul admitted he does things he should not do and does not do those things he ought to do. If we were not sinners, perpetual sinners, we would have no need for Jesus.

St. John also tells us clearly that Jesus did not give His life for "all" our sins but rather only those sins for which we sincerely confess. Since I am faithful in sinning every day I find it necessary to faithfully confess my sins when immediately conscious of them and in reviewing my day every evening before I go to sleep. (Some of those sins are obviously exposed here on the OPP). How do we sin? Every day we sin in thoughts, words and deeds and........the good that we fail to do!

"Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner! "

Reply
Sep 14, 2019 21:33:20   #
jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Part Three


So, do you think it would be a good idea to take David’s actual walk and circumstances into consideration before jumping to false conclusions like you did with Abraham?

“And David's heart smote him after that he had… sinned greatly... And David spake unto the LORD… and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly... And Gad came that day to David, and said unto him, Go up, rear an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Araunah the Jebusite. And David, according to the saying of Gad, went up as the LORD commanded… And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the LORD was intreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel. -2 Samuel 24:10-25.
(See also 1 Sam. 16:2-5, 2 Sam. 6:12-14).

David built altars of sacrifice, by which works, he was able to appease God’s wrath. It wasn’t like David, or Abraham, or anyone else in the Old Testament was ever “saved” or justified without being obedient, according to their circumstance, to God.

The point is, we must not jump to conclusions based on presumptions when reading the Scriptures. We must understand the language of the Bible. And particularly, we must understand the context of the examples that are given to us for our object lessons. In one breath Paul describes "the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works", but in the very same passage he continues by reiterating the fact that Abraham's children in the faith are those "who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." -Romans 4:12

Thus the Bible does not consider walking in the commandments of God to be our works, but God's-

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” -Ephesians 2:10

God doesn’t walk the walk for us, He gives them to us for us to walk in. The only time this didn’t apply was in the Garden of Eden when God himself provided coats of skins to clothe Adam and Eve, but they still had to wear them, and we are never told whether or not they were saved. But we know the impact by what happened with Cain and Able. We know that Eve sinned by eating of the forbidden fruit. For that, God had to make clothes from skins of animals, requiring the death of some unnamed animal that Adam and Eve had been given dominion over. Blood had to be spilled, and that blood had to be applied, because, “According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.” Heb_9:22. Now, we know that this shedding of blood became mandatory, a must do, because after Adam and Eve had sons, then Cain tried to give an offering of the fruit of the ground, but Able offered of his flocks, in other words, blood. And what was God’s response? He had respect to Able and not to Cain and Cain became jealous and killed his brother. Apparently, there was something that Cain and Able “must” do, and Able did it but Cain didn’t. But what is noteworthy and important for us to remember, which the faith-alone dogma has to omit, is God’s response to Cain when he tried to offer up a sacrifice of his own description:

“6Yahweh said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why has the expression of your face fallen?7If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well , sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.” Genesis 4:6

According to God, the difference was in the doing or not doing. Why didn’t God tell Cain, “there is nothing a sinner can do, much less must do”? It’s because that would not be true and God doesn’t lie, like men do. So, we have the teaching, through the example of Cain, that shedding of blood is a must do. Not doing it is to not do well, and we are to rule over the sin that entices us to not do well. But more importantly, we have the Bible pointedly telling us that in Able’s case, offering a blood sacrifice was a work of faith:

By faith, Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous.” Heb 11:4

Abel and Cain both had a “must do”, which again, you’d have to omit to justify the “faith-alone” doctrine, but which the Bible calls “by faith”, and God honors and calls it “testimony” that he was “righteous.” I think it’s safe to say we ought to believe God’s testimony over man’s conclusions to the contrary.


Next, let’s talk about Noah. Would it be accurate to say of Noah, that God had clearly told him, “there is nothing a sinner can do, much less must do”? The idea is preposterous! Worse, it is a lie to say there was nothing Noah “must do” or “could do.” What if Noah hadn’t built the ark? Would God have told him, “oh, that’s okay, there’s nothing you could have done anyway. I know your heart and that is all that is required”? That is the subtle mockery that the “faith-alone” dogma-titions are making of God.

And why do we know God wouldn’t have said that? Well, look what Jesus said to those who decided they didn’t need to be baptized:

“But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves.” Luke 7:30

And this was a point in time when they were under the Mosaic law which said nothing about baptism; and yet they were being condemned as rejecting the counsel of God for not being baptized, which wasn’t even a commandment in their law! Was baptism then, a “must do” or not? It appears obvious that it was a must do. However, even though it was mandatory, it wouldn’t make them “righteous,” but it would make them “faithful.” How can I say or know that? Well, it’s because I’ve read what the Bible explains about baptism.

For that, let’s look how the NT explains Noah’s example of baptism to us:

“19... God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:19-21

By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared a ship for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.” Hebrews 11:7

So, what is it we learn about Noah building the ark: that it was a “must do” or that it was a “not necessary, but he could if he wanted to” kind of thing? It was clearly a “must do” thing. In fact, just like as with Cain and Able, it was the doing of that “must do” that “saved” him, and it is a type or teaching example to us of how baptism works with us. And in Hebrews, Noah building the ark was called “of faith”. Now, if it was a symbol of baptism which now saves us, according to Peter, was either the building of the ark or baptism optional? Obviously not. Therefore, is it hard not to see how far off track it is to say that throughout the Bible there was no “must do’s”?

Let’s get back to baptism during the period of Christ’s earthly ministry. At this point, most “Evangelicals” will point to the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39–43) and adamantly claim he didn’t need to be baptized. Well, how do they know that? Don’t they read the Bible? For it is written:

4“John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching the baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins. 5All the country of Judea and all those of Jerusalem went out to him. They were baptized by him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins.” Mark 1:4–5

The fact is, we don’t really know if the thief was or wasn’t baptized! But, if all were baptized, who’s to say the thief was not baptized? So, these Evangelicals would rather base their salvation on a thief on the cross, in an arbitrary situation, that they can interject their own opinions as doctrine into, rather than listen to what the apostles clearly proclaimed on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s death, burial and resurrection! “If you do good, won’t you be accepted, and if not, sin lies at the door.”

Keeping in mind, as noted above, that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God by not being baptized (Luke 7:30)... By their mutual rejection of the necessity of water baptism, even for those “under the law,” we see that those who use the thief on the cross as an excuse for not accepting the necessity of baptism for repentance have more in common with the Pharisees than they do with the actual, true believers! The believers, who did submit to baptism, declared, by that action, that God was just! How can I say this? Because of what our beloved apostle Paul wrote:

“3Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:3

This is an exclusive group, according to Paul. It only pertains to “all we who have been baptized into Jesus Christ.”

Continued in Part Four
(which I’ll work on tomorrow, which I’m sure you will happy about considering your last couple posts.)

P.S., “good Christian” women don’t use the devil’s method of bible interpretation.
Part Three br br br So, do you think it would be... (show quote)




Once already I used scriptures to reveal your contradictions in scripture.

I'm less impressed with a printed dogma that a false teacher has cleverly written and then cut and pasted.

The false usage of two things, James and the usage of Greek.

Salvation by works can creep into denominations that claim to be Christian or say they believe in the Bible is that they misunderstand passages like James 2:24: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” Taken in the context of the entire passage (James 2:14–26), it becomes evident that James is not saying our works make us righteous before God; instead, he is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or “dead” faith and is not saved. James is making a contrast between two different types of faith—truth faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

There are simply too many verses that teach that one is not saved by works for any Christian to believe otherwise. Titus 3:4–5 is one of many such passages: “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.” Good works do not contribute to salvation, but they will always be characteristic of one who has been born again. Good works are not the cause of salvation; they are the evidence of it.

While salvation by works might be the predominantly held viewpoint, it is not an accurate one biblically. The Bible contains abundant evidence of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8–9).

Remember that if one verse contradicts another, then which verse is not being properly read? The bible in its entirety reveals the answer.

Jack

Reply
Sep 14, 2019 21:35:47   #
jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho
 
Rose42 wrote:
Nice summation Jack. Especially the first sentence. Thinking one can stop sinning altogether is a very dangerous place to be. We have victory in Christ but we all stumble every now and then


Every now and again, some more than others. This is what makes Paul's letter regarding sin and Grace so meaningful to us saved sinners
God bless,.
Jack

Reply
Sep 14, 2019 22:15:08   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
EmilyD wrote:
So why is Bad Bob listed as "online" right now? Wasn't he banned? The last time he posted anything was on March 5, 2019. And I have been checking factnotfiction's profile and he never seems to be online. Although I have seen him online a few brief times.
Anyone can visit this forum and read the threads. You can be suspended, banned, or just quit and you can still visit OPP.

I seriously doubt that factnotfiction and Bad Bob are the same person. BB made liberal use of graphics, memes, and one liners. Many of his posts were nothing more than a or a or some sort of LOL emoji. Rarely, did BB ever post a link.

Reply
 
 
Sep 17, 2019 14:16:34   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
bahmer wrote:
You are almost as bad as Susanblange here in OPP.


Bahmer,

It’s your prerogative to count me crazy all you want.

I have studied the Bible and early Christianity enough to know that what I am saying is what was held by all the non-gnostic Christians we have on record that I’ve been able to get my hands on, which is a lot, but granted not possibly everything.

The workless salvation that you are supporting is what was considered gnostic thought by the early true Christians. For example:

“2. …they {Gnostics} hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct... they affirm that they cannot in any measure… lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved
“4. …they tell us that… it is not conduct of any kind which leads into (heaven), but the seed sent forth thence in a feeble, immature state, and here brought to perfection.” Irenaeus, Against Heretics, book 1, chap 6

The consistent message of true, apostolic Christians, went more like this:

“Let us cleave then to His blessing, and consider what are the means of possessing it. Let us think over the things which have taken place from the beginning. For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith? Isaac, with perfect confidence, as if knowing what was to happen, cheerfully yielded himself as a sacrifice. Jacob, through reason of his brother, went forth with humility from his own land, and came to Laban and served him; and there was given to him the sceptre of the twelve tribes of Israel.” Clement of Rome (c. 96) https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_first_epistle_of_clement_to_the_corinthians/chapter_xxxi_let_us_see_by.htm


Of course, I’ve quoted these and many more to you (https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-163979-5.html#2964929), but, apparently you aren’t interested in hearing the testimony of the direct disciples of the apostles, so why would I think you’d listen to me.

I can guarantee you one thing, and that is that you won’t find susanblange’s religion expressed anywhere in the historic record.

For me, I think it is crazy that today’s Christians think that the Gnostics had it right and the approved disciples of the Lord had it wrong... but that’s your choice and those who agree with the gnostic-originated doctrine you are supporting.

Reply
Sep 17, 2019 14:17:14   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
jack sequim wa wrote:
You twist so much instead of letting the word guide you.

The Pharisees lived by what? The Law, right?
Can any man keep the law? Do enough good works?
Your verses you post along with your good works dogma are not considering why Jesus said and why he used the Pharisees.


This is a total lie Jack. Read these scriptures:

“6He answered them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' 8"For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things." 9He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother;' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban, that is to say, given to God;"' 12then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother, 13making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this." Mark 7:6-13

By what stretch of the imagination was Jesus condemning these Pharisees for keeping the law?

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.” Matthew 23:23

By what stretch of the imagination was Jesus condemning these Pharisees for keeping the whole law?

“51"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52Which of the prophets didn't your fathers persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, of whom you have now become betrayers and murderers. 53You received the law as it was ordained by angels, and didn't keep it!” Acts 7:51-53

Your whole foundation is based on a lie, because you are the one who isn’t letting the scriptures guide you.






jack sequim wa wrote:
To say we can keep the law calls God a liar or to say We can do enough good works also calls God a liar.

Its to say the unscriptural ....Christian's can get to a point when they no longer break the commandments and have accomplished enough good works, then is when Gods grace and faith combined salvation.

If scriptural then God has given us a bad deal. What standard of measurement did God give, that one can know they have done enough good works.

Or

If we are not perfect and sin then how many good works outweighs the sin?

Or

Are you now without sin and doing good works?

I mean using good works as a part of salvation.
I was busy all month handling family business from home, i didn't hold a door for an old lady, I didn't go to church. How many good works count?
What good works count?

How can I measure good works?...
I'm going to stick with what God gave us and not have these dilemmas

Jack
To say we can keep the law calls God a liar or to... (show quote)


All you have provided, Jack, are false dilemmas. Once you’ve built your foundation on a fallacy, then you feel justified to create false dilemmas and straw man arguments to defend your position. These are forms of false argumentation, in a word, these types of “arguments” or “defenses” are lies. Again, that isn’t me calling you a liar, that is God’s word calling you a liar, and here’s the Scripture that does so:

“Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.” Proverbs 30:6

“You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish from it, that you may keep the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you.” Deuteronomy 4:2

The New Testament puts it this way: “Teach no other doctrine” 1 Timothy 1:3

Let’s look at the scripture you add to:

“9...we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10How then was it counted? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11He received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they might be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might also be accounted to them. 12He is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision. 13For the promise to Abraham and to his seed that he should be heir of the world wasn't through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” Romans 7:9-13

Where in this passage did Paul use the phrase “through faith alone”? He did not. That is Jack interjecting the traditions of men that make the commandments of God of none effect. Here are those words of yours that do so

“So were there multiple ways of salvation prior to the coming of Jesus in space and time to die as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind? The answer must be a resounding “No.” Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.” jack sequim wa, Sep 12, 2019 10:20:38

No, Jack, you are telling a lie. Paul, in this passage, said we of faith will walk in the steps of faith that Abraham walked before his circumcision: “by faith Abraham...obeyed...” Hebrews 11:8

And here is a passage where you take away from the word of God in order to keep your man-made tradition:

“21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought ("sunergo –1, to work together, help in work, be partner in labour 2, to put forth power together with and thereby to assist") with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness... 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:21-26.

Here is another verse where you have to take away the God-breathed words of Scripture:

“You see then that by works, a man is justified, and NOT only by faith.” James 2:24

Why is it you don’t see the word synergy between faith and works resulting in justification, in James 2:22, and must change it into “results”? Why is it you don’t see the word “NOT only” in James 2:24? It can only be because you are blind to it:

“if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them...” 2 Corinthians 4:3

Oh, but haven’t you quoted “the gospel” from 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, just as I do? Yes, but you are blind to what Paul himself said about it, twice, that it must be obeyed:

“6... it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8giving vengeance to those who don't know God, and to those who don't obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might” 1 Thessalonians 1:6-9

“15... it hath been written, ‘How beautiful the feet of those proclaiming good tidings of peace, of those proclaiming good tidings of the good things!’ 16But they were not all obedient to the good tidings...” Romans 10:15-16

Paul not only said the gospel must be obeyed, and that those who don’t obey it will suffer eternal destruction, but he also clearly explained how to obey the gospel:

“3Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; 9knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him! 10For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12Therefore don't let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.” Romans 6:3-12

Of which, Peter, applying the keys to the kingdom of God given to him by the Lord Jesus himself, summarized succinctly as follows:

“38Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.” Acts 2:38-39

And these are the commandments of God that you latter-day Pharisees are making of none effect by insisting on negating the commandments of God in order to keep your own traditions to the contrary! You are a hearer of the gospel, but not a doer or obeyer of the gospel

“...become you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James 1:22

Continued in Part Two

Reply
Sep 17, 2019 14:18:05   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Part Two

jack sequim wa wrote:
Once already I used scriptures to reveal your contradictions in scripture.


This is a lie, Jack. All you’ve done in your quoting of scriptures was subtracting from the word (ie you negate that Paul said Abraham’s children “do the works of Abraham” (John 8:39) and “walk in the steps” (Romans 4:12) of our father Abraham “before he was circumcised”) or adding to the word (ie you add the word “alone” making it “faith alone” where Paul never did add that word), thus artificially changing some of the important points that speak clearly and specifically against your false conclusions.

jack sequim wa wrote:
I'm less impressed with a printed dogma that a false teacher has cleverly written and then cut and pasted.


I certify to you Jack, that what I wrote, either I wrote it (for here or previously), or I quote my sources.


jack sequim wa wrote:
The false usage of two things, James and the usage of Greek.

Salvation by works can creep into denominations that claim to be Christian or say they believe in the Bible is that they misunderstand passages like James 2:24: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” Taken in the context of the entire passage (James 2:14–26), it becomes evident that James is not saying our works make us righteous before God; instead, he is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or “dead” faith and is not saved. James is making a contrast between two different types of faith—truth faith that saves and false faith that is dead.
The false usage of two things, James and the usage... (show quote)


You can only make this claim, Jack, because you ignore the word “synergy” (sunergo in the Greek) that James uses. So your own words are testifying against you. You are the one who is ignoring the original languages of scripture. Paul himself also uses this word, though it is often hidden from English readers:

“We then, as workers together [synergy, Gr. Synergountes] with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” 2 Corinthians 6:1

“For we are God's fellow workers (synergy, Gr. synergoi). You are God's farming, God's building.” 1 Corinthians 3:9

And Paul, along with others, explained in other ways that salvation was not by “faith alone”:

“So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12

“Don't work for the food which perishes, but for the food which remains to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has sealed him.” John 6:27

“You will be hated by all men for my name's sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.” Matthew 10:22

“...God doesn't show favoritism; 35but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” Acts 10:34-35


jack sequim wa wrote:
There are simply too many verses that teach that one is not saved by works for any Christian to believe otherwise. Titus 3:4–5 is one of many such passages: “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.” Good works do not contribute to salvation, but they will always be characteristic of one who has been born again. Good works are not the cause of salvation; they are the evidence of it.

While salvation by works might be the predominantly held viewpoint, it is not an accurate one biblically. The Bible contains abundant evidence of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8–9).

Remember that if one verse contradicts another, then which verse is not being properly read? The bible in its entirety reveals the answer.

Jack
There are simply too many verses that teach that o... (show quote)



Jack, once again your own words condemn you. It is written: “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:37

The two passages you quoted actually condemn your “faith alone” position. Here’s the first one:

“4But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, 5not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, [b]he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6which he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;” Titus 3:4-5.

Do you not recall how Paul was commanded regarding his washing of regeneration?

“16Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'” Acts 22:16

“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:11

That didn’t happen at the moment of belief:

“12But when they believed Philip preaching good news concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Simon himself also believed. Being baptized, he continued with Philip. Seeing signs and great miracles occurring, he was amazed.

14Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15who, when they had come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit; 16for as yet he had fallen on none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of Christ Jesus. 17Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:12-17

“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38

So, no, Titus 3:4–5, does not say we are saved by “faith alone”, it, like practically all other verses you have tried to use, refers to other elements of our salvation, which, if we live by every word of God, we see that it doesn’t really say what you are saying it says. Rather, we come to see the consistent message, which is definitely “NOT” the “faith alone” doctrine that you teach and believe, but which is never, ever once articulated as such in scripture.

Now let’s look at your next verse. Does it have the phrase “faith alone” in it? Of course not. So, you can’t find one verse in the Bible that simply says your favorite phrase.

“8for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, that no one would boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10

Not “faith alone”, Jack, faith and “works” that we are to walk in! God doesn’t walk them for us, nor has He made us robots, nor has He predestined some to righteousness and some to condemnation. There is no such respect of persons with God, although He is omniscient and knows what we will choose, He does not violate our free will, either before we come to Christ or after!

What you are doing, Jack, is called two things. First, it is a false dilemma. Again, that is how the devil interprets the Bible which you Evangelicals have down pat. The second is a straw man argument.

Let’s look at two scriptures:

“8for by grace you have been saved through faith (Gr. #4102, , pisteōs) , and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, that no one would boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

“You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe (Gr. #4100 from #4102, pisteueis) , and shudder.” James 2:19

Devils have the faith alone that you say is all that is needed for salvation. The words belief and faith are from the same Greek word, “pistis”, which means “persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself.” (Strong’s). The word “pisteueis”, which is derived from “pistis”, means “to have faith (in respect to, a person or thing) i.e. credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)” Strong’s.

Neither of these two scriptures are more authoritative than the other. Nobody made Paul the chief apostle whose words were to be held in higher esteem than any other scriptural writer. Neither do you or your type have the authority to add to or take away from these words by interpreting them to mean something other than the explicitly say like you’ve been doing. In fact, Paul himself said that if you claim to be only “of Paul” you are carnal (1 Cor. 3:3).

Thus the bible, not just James, states this, basing this fact on the truth that the devils have the “faith alone” that you are preaching:

“You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.” James 2:24

Your problem, Jack, is that you have bought into a false dilemma. I’m not going to presume to know where you got your ideas, but you seem to think that if there are “works of righteousness” involved with salvation, then somehow they could only mean “prerequisites” to salvation. There is a term for that, it is called “monergism”, which is in contrast to the Biblical word of “synergy.”

Your false dilemma is that you are claiming, that if man’s works are involved it must be some type of monergy (lit. “one-energy”, in this case, “all man”), and you think that is what Paul is denouncing; therefore, from your perspective, only God can save through faith and that would be the “monergy of God alone” as opposed to man alone. This kind of thinking originated in the pagan doctrine of dualism; that man was all evil and only that which is spiritual is all good, therefore, man can play no part in his own salvation. This kind of thinking ignores two biblical facts. First that God created man and called him “very good.” Secondly, when we are in Christ we are a new creature.

If you were in a deep pit that you couldn’t climb out of, and someone lowered a ladder to you so you could climb out, I guess you’re the kind of person who would boast they got themselves out of the pit. Actually, that is what you are falsely accusing me of being by your straw man argument. It seems to me, on the other hand, you’re the kind of person who would say Jesus gave you a ladder so you are going to wait in the pit, on the basis that, since he sent you a ladder, he can also come down and carry me out; otherwise, if you climbed out using the ladder he gave you, Jesus wouldn’t get the honor from you of being your savior. And you really think that is “faith”? It isn’t really faith anymore than it is “faith only”, in reality it is just not responding with a good conscience to the good news.

In the real world, because you are choosing to stay in the pit, when you have the choice and have been freed to come out, but you choose not to come up by way of the prescribed ladder (i.e. Acts 2:38), all you’re doing is proving you like it better in the dark than the light of day:

“17For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him... 19This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” John 3:17-21

Continued in Part Three

Reply
Sep 17, 2019 14:19:06   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Part Three


So, ultimately, the source of the straw man you are combatting, even though it may have slightly different characteristics, ultimately comes from the gnostics who were influenced heavily by the pagan doctrine of dualism. It is a straw man argument against me, in addition to a false witness, because I never said or implied things like this:

“Do enough good works?...”
“To...say We can do enough good works also calls God a liar.”
“I was busy all month handling family business from home, i didn't hold a door for an old lady, I didn't go to church. How many good works count?”
“What good works count?”
“How can I measure good works?” -Jack

These are ridiculous straw man arguments come from you, Jack, not from anything I’ve said. People use false dilemmas and straw man arguments, like you are using them here, to deceive, Jack, not to openly discuss something with integrity.

Here’s how it works according to Jesus:

“11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are they who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; but these have no root, who believe for a while, then fall away in time of temptation. 14That which fell among the thorns, these are those who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15That in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it tightly, and bring forth fruit with patience.” Luke 8:11-15.

In the “faith alone” view, there is no good biblical reason that those in verse 13 should have ever fallen away. And that’s your false dilemma being exposed, Jack.

Your straw man is that it has to be all God or all man, and that is why you attempt to falsely accuse me of preaching “all man” as if I have said or believe that God is sitting back and waiting for people to get themselves holy and righteous before they will be saved. That is categorically false. That is not biblical. That is not what I am saying.

But neither does the Bible say it is all God, which, ultimately, is what you would have to be saying. If salvation is all mere belief, (which devils also have), then God is a respecter of persons who creates some to be counted righteous and some not, all arbitrarily because even the devils believe and there are those who will believe, have faith, for a while, and then fall away. Who caused them to fall away if they are only saved by “faith alone” and nothing they can do can affect it?


But God is not a respecter of persons:

“...God doesn't show favoritism; 35but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” Acts 10:34-35

What Jesus is talking about in the parable of the sower, is the value of the response. The response is up to us. That is the part we play in salvation, from beginning to end.

The “Faith alone” doctrine, taken at face value, would require us to be totally passive. That somehow God works good works through some people’s faith, and doesn’t through other people’s faith. That idea came into Christianity via the pagan doctrine of “fate” (which I’m not going to go into much with these posts). That is making God an unrighteous respecter of persons.


Notice how these verses explain “response”, as opposed to “works of righteousness of the law”:

“God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:20-21

The “answer of a good conscience is the answer”, or we could say, “the proper response”, to the commandments of God. God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of his house. Did Noah make this up on his own? No, then it wasn’t Noah’s works of righteousness, it was Noah’s answer of a good conscience to God. Did Abraham think up the idea that if he left his father’s house and sojourned in a distant land that God would accept him and count his faith for righteousness? No, he responded, with works just like Noah did, having a good conscience toward God.

Neither of them had to get themselves righteous according to the righteousness of the Mosaic law before God would commune with them, or count their faith as righteousness. But neither could they get out of responding by their work of God’s workmanship which God before ordained them to walk in.

Now look at the Pharisees who rejected the counsel of God against themselves:

“But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves.” Luke 7:30

Response to the gospel is what was expected of them. Not the keeping of every jot and tittle of the law.

And therein explains your false dilemma. Paul was contending, in his day, of those who were insisting that Gentiles needed to be held to the law of Moses. But Paul was defending the righteousness of faith.

“For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing.” Romans 10:4

“Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.” Romans 3:27

Yes, even in “faith” there is a “law”, “the law of faith”, and it is contrasted to, not any and all “works”, such as the “works of faith”, but in contrast to the mosaic law. The “law of faith” speaks on this wise:

“He (Abraham) is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision.” Romans 4:12

By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out...” Hebrews 11:8

“They answered him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.” John 8:39

Synergy, not monergy. Not the monergy of man alone, not the monergy of God alone. Synergy of faith and works:

“21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought ("sunergo”/synergy) with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness... 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:21-26.

“16Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'” Acts 22:16

“...in the days of Noah...souls, were saved through water. 21This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:20-21

“4Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?” Romans 2:4

“2Jesus answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” Luke 13:2-3

Repentance is something we do, God leads us to it, but we have to respond properly, which is in faith, and walk in the steps and do the “works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10

God doesn’t do them for us; they are how we answer with a good conscience and show we have more than just the faith of devils; who believe and don’t do.

Reply
 
 
Sep 17, 2019 14:59:02   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Part Three


So, ultimately, the source of the straw man you are combatting, even though it may have slightly different characteristics, ultimately comes from the gnostics who were influenced heavily by the pagan doctrine of dualism. It is a straw man argument against me, in addition to a false witness, because I never said or implied things like this:

“Do enough good works?...”
“To...say We can do enough good works also calls God a liar.”
“I was busy all month handling family business from home, i didn't hold a door for an old lady, I didn't go to church. How many good works count?”
“What good works count?”
“How can I measure good works?” -Jack

These are ridiculous straw man arguments come from you, Jack, not from anything I’ve said. People use false dilemmas and straw man arguments, like you are using them here, to deceive, Jack, not to openly discuss something with integrity.

Here’s how it works according to Jesus:

“11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are they who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; but these have no root, who believe for a while, then fall away in time of temptation. 14That which fell among the thorns, these are those who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15That in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it tightly, and bring forth fruit with patience.” Luke 8:11-15.

In the “faith alone” view, there is no good biblical reason that those in verse 13 should have ever fallen away. And that’s your false dilemma being exposed, Jack.

Your straw man is that it has to be all God or all man, and that is why you attempt to falsely accuse me of preaching “all man” as if I have said or believe that God is sitting back and waiting for people to get themselves holy and righteous before they will be saved. That is categorically false. That is not biblical. That is not what I am saying.

But neither does the Bible say it is all God, which, ultimately, is what you would have to be saying. If salvation is all mere belief, (which devils also have), then God is a respecter of persons who creates some to be counted righteous and some not, all arbitrarily because even the devils believe and there are those who will believe, have faith, for a while, and then fall away. Who caused them to fall away if they are only saved by “faith alone” and nothing they can do can affect it?


But God is not a respecter of persons:

“...God doesn't show favoritism; 35but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” Acts 10:34-35

What Jesus is talking about in the parable of the sower, is the value of the response. The response is up to us. That is the part we play in salvation, from beginning to end.

The “Faith alone” doctrine, taken at face value, would require us to be totally passive. That somehow God works good works through some people’s faith, and doesn’t through other people’s faith. That idea came into Christianity via the pagan doctrine of “fate” (which I’m not going to go into much with these posts). That is making God an unrighteous respecter of persons.


Notice how these verses explain “response”, as opposed to “works of righteousness of the law”:

“God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:20-21

The “answer of a good conscience is the answer”, or we could say, “the proper response”, to the commandments of God. God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of his house. Did Noah make this up on his own? No, then it wasn’t Noah’s works of righteousness, it was Noah’s answer of a good conscience to God. Did Abraham think up the idea that if he left his father’s house and sojourned in a distant land that God would accept him and count his faith for righteousness? No, he responded, with works just like Noah did, having a good conscience toward God.

Neither of them had to get themselves righteous according to the righteousness of the Mosaic law before God would commune with them, or count their faith as righteousness. But neither could they get out of responding by their work of God’s workmanship which God before ordained them to walk in.

Now look at the Pharisees who rejected the counsel of God against themselves:

“But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves.” Luke 7:30

Response to the gospel is what was expected of them. Not the keeping of every jot and tittle of the law.

And therein explains your false dilemma. Paul was contending, in his day, of those who were insisting that Gentiles needed to be held to the law of Moses. But Paul was defending the righteousness of faith.

“For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing.” Romans 10:4

“Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.” Romans 3:27

Yes, even in “faith” there is a “law”, “the law of faith”, and it is contrasted to, not any and all “works”, such as the “works of faith”, but in contrast to the mosaic law. The “law of faith” speaks on this wise:

“He (Abraham) is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision.” Romans 4:12

By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out...” Hebrews 11:8

“They answered him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.” John 8:39

Synergy, not monergy. Not the monergy of man alone, not the monergy of God alone. Synergy of faith and works:

“21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought ("sunergo”/synergy) with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness... 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:21-26.

“16Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'” Acts 22:16

“...in the days of Noah...souls, were saved through water. 21This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:20-21

“4Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?” Romans 2:4

“2Jesus answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” Luke 13:2-3

Repentance is something we do, God leads us to it, but we have to respond properly, which is in faith, and walk in the steps and do the “works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10

God doesn’t do them for us; they are how we answer with a good conscience and show we have more than just the faith of devils; who believe and don’t do.
Part Three br br br So, ultimately, the source o... (show quote)
It is extremely off-putting when you burn through a dozen pages and several thousand words in an attempt to make a point. This forum is not the place for protracted proselytising and long winded sermons.

Even worse is the arrogance driving such lengthy attempts to convince everyone that you have gained all knowledge of the Word of God and everyone else falls far short. "I am right, all of you are wrong" builds a wall around everything you say.

Reply
Sep 17, 2019 15:17:10   #
EmilyD
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
It is extremely off-putting when you burn through a dozen pages and several thousand words in an attempt to make a point. This forum is not the place for protracted proselytising and long winded sermons.

Even worse is the arrogance driving such lengthy attempts to convince everyone that you have gained all knowledge of the Word of God and everyone else falls far short. "I am right, all of you are wrong" builds a wall around everything you say.




Well said, and totally agree!

Reply
Sep 17, 2019 15:18:01   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
factnotfiction wrote:
And the stupid politicians who constantly rant and rave and carry on should have a better understanding of what scripture actually says about abortion.

And if the connies are going say that times have changed, then that same argument applies to virtually every single word in the second amendment

*************************************************************************************

A prominent fundamentalist Christian minister and television celebrity regularly proclaims that the unborn child has a God-given right to life, that life is a gift from God, and that abortion is the sinful destruction of God's sacred creation. These and similar assertions are thoroughly refuted by "God's word," the holy bible.

Defenders of women's reproductive rights should know what the bible actually says about abortion and, by extension, related issues, including contraception, the morning-after pill, in vitro fertilization and fetal tissue research.

Scriptural truths
Ten biblical episodes and prophecies provide an unequivocal expression of God's attitude toward human life, especially the ontological status of "unborn children" and their pregnant mothers-to-be. Brief summaries:

• A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).

• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).

• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).

• Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).

• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).

• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18).

• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).

• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).

• For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).

• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).

Biblical atrocities
The 10 incidents and declarations surveyed above document God's complete rejection of the anti-abortion crusaders' claims about the sanctity of life and a divine right to life. There is clearly no biblical justification for the radical theology they espouse. This section summarizes God's monumental history of murderous behavior as recorded in holy writ.

We know that God killed millions of unborn children and their pregnant mothers-to-be in the Noachian deluge, the conquest of Canaan, the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah and in 20 major slaughters described in the bible. The critical feature of these horrific events is that all people were exterminated. Whenever entire communities were massacred, we can be sure that pregnant mothers-to-be and their unborn children were among the victims. Moreover, there are no stated exemptions for this specific segment of the population.

It can be concluded from this ghastly program of human annihilation that the God of the bible is the greatest mass murderer in history and that he does not care about unborn children or living children or living adults. If God really opposes abortion, why didn't he just say so? Why didn't he authorize one of his trusted spokesmen—Moses, Jesus or Paul—to issue a definitive statement on the subject?

It is also noteworthy that while the bible requires the death penalty for 60 specified criminal violations, abortion is not among them. When all relevant documentation is examined, it is obvious that God does not love the unborn and he certainly does not disapprove of abortion.

Theological questions
Anti-abortion zealots assert that human life begins at conception, and therefore the fertilized egg possesses all constitutional rights of a living person. It follows that destruction of a conceived embryo (blastocyst) is murder.This is the basis for the personhood argument which has been defeated in five statewide initiatives since 2010.

The bible declares that God breathed life into man's body (Genesis 2:7). At least a dozen more verses indicate that breath is synonymous with life. This scriptural truth completely contradicts the personhood dogma.

More importantly, if the fertilized ovum is a person, as anti-abortion extremists claim, then God's record as the greatest murderer of unborn children is expanded further. That is because most fertilized eggs either fail to implant in the uterine wall and pass out of the body or do implant, begin to develop and then are spontaneously aborted. Fewer than one-third of fertilized ova survive to become living humans.

Why does God murder untold millions of these "persons" every year in the U.S. alone? Why did God, who allegedly loves the unborn and hates abortion, kill so many unborn children, adolescents and adults throughout biblical history? Why do fundamentalists pursue a political agenda that is thoroughly refuted by God's word?

Anti-abortion antilogies
Among those who deny women's reproductive rights, numerous contradictory positions are observed. For example, some prominent politicians who want to overturn Roe v. Wade would allow exceptions for rape, incest, severe fetal abnormality and/or life of the mother. These exceptions necessarily require destroying the fetus, which is the very action they condemn. In other words, the murder of unborn children is acceptable when anti-abortion politicians approve.

Another blatant inconsistency involves physicians who want to defund Planned Parenthood because it provides aborted fetuses for medical research. Yet, some of these physicians have themselves conducted research using aborted fetuses. Furthermore, medical investigations using fetal tissue have produced lifesaving vaccines and therapeutic interventions that have benefited everyone.

The most disgusting contradiction exists between the radical activists' preferred label "pro-life" and their horrific record of godly violence. In the 40 years since Roe v. Wade, was decided, eight abortion providers have been murdered and 17 have been maimed or seriously injured. More than 6,000 acts of violence have been perpetrated, including fire bombings, arsons, kidnappings, assaults and death threats. These agents of violence are accurately labeled "Christian terrorists."

The activists who want to make abortion illegal invariably call themselves "Christian conservatives," stating that they want to reduce government intrusion and eliminate burdensome regulations that limit personal liberty. They say they want to get government off our backs and out of our lives. Except, of course, when they want to use the coercive power of government to inflict their theological beliefs on everybody else, especially in matters of reproduction and sexuality.

After 40 years with at least 1 million elective abortions annually, opponents still refuse to endorse programs that are proven to reduce abortions, such as family planning that stresses contraception and comprehensive sexuality education.

Instead they promote abstinence-only, ignorance curricula. If they would focus their efforts on preventing unwanted pregnancies, they would stop many more abortions than their politically coercive and sometimes violent tactics have stopped. Ironically, the crusaders help to cause the abortions they denounce.

A 'holocaust'
Dogmatists condemn what they call the "holocaust" of 56 million abortions since Roe v. Wade became the law of the land. At the same time, they spend tens of billions of dollars annually building and operating their grandiose megachurches, Christian academies and other programs to promote fundamentalist doctrines. If they really want to prevent the murder of unborn children, why don't they just use some of their vast wealth to pay women not to have abortions?

Lastly, the most egregious contradiction occurs whenever the religionists invoke a biblical justification for their sanctimonious stance, because the Judeo-Christian God simply does not care about the lives of pregnant women and their unborn children. Abortion opponents cite a dozen verses that refer to the developing fetus but not one that condemns abortion.

The bible is an unending compilation of atrocities illustrating God's penchant for feticide, infanticide and the wholesale slaughter of adults.

Conclusion
Prominent women's rights groups like Planned Parenthood, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, NARAL Pro-choice America, Emily's List and the National Organization for Women should confront the zealots about the complete lack of biblical support for their position. For the past decade, surveys have indicated that about two-thirds of Americans think abortion should remain legal. A 2015 poll put the figure at 80%.

Among institutions, Planned Parenthood has the highest approval (45%) and Congress has the lowest (8%). Why don't reproductive rights advocates attack the anti-abortion terrorists with the same ferocity that the zealots exhibit in their ongoing campaign of harassment, violence and dishonesty? The truth is that the bible does not endorse the fundamentalist Christian assault on women's reproductive health.

In fact, God is clearly pro-abortion.

FFRF Life Member Brian Bolton is a retired psychologist, humanist minister, university professor emeritus and sponsor of FFRF's graduate essay contest. He lives in Georgetown, Texas. The executive wing of FFRF's new addition bears his name.
And the stupid politicians who constantly rant and... (show quote)
All but one of the verses you reference are from the Old Testament. The quote from Matthew is irrelevant.

Christianity is not based in Mosaic law.

Think not that I come to abolish the law and the prophets, I come not to abolish, but to fulfill.
Yahshua, Matthew 5:17-20

If you cannot grasp what Yahshua meant, I can't help you.

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them!

Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you.

Psalm of David 139

Reply
Sep 17, 2019 18:37:23   #
jack sequim wa Loc: Blanchard, Idaho
 
TommyRadd wrote:
Part Three


So, ultimately, the source of the straw man you are combatting, even though it may have slightly different characteristics, ultimately comes from the gnostics who were influenced heavily by the pagan doctrine of dualism. It is a straw man argument against me, in addition to a false witness, because I never said or implied things like this:

“Do enough good works?...”
“To...say We can do enough good works also calls God a liar.”
“I was busy all month handling family business from home, i didn't hold a door for an old lady, I didn't go to church. How many good works count?”
“What good works count?”
“How can I measure good works?” -Jack

These are ridiculous straw man arguments come from you, Jack, not from anything I’ve said. People use false dilemmas and straw man arguments, like you are using them here, to deceive, Jack, not to openly discuss something with integrity.

Here’s how it works according to Jesus:

“11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are they who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; but these have no root, who believe for a while, then fall away in time of temptation. 14That which fell among the thorns, these are those who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15That in the good ground, these are such as in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, hold it tightly, and bring forth fruit with patience.” Luke 8:11-15.

In the “faith alone” view, there is no good biblical reason that those in verse 13 should have ever fallen away. And that’s your false dilemma being exposed, Jack.

Your straw man is that it has to be all God or all man, and that is why you attempt to falsely accuse me of preaching “all man” as if I have said or believe that God is sitting back and waiting for people to get themselves holy and righteous before they will be saved. That is categorically false. That is not biblical. That is not what I am saying.

But neither does the Bible say it is all God, which, ultimately, is what you would have to be saying. If salvation is all mere belief, (which devils also have), then God is a respecter of persons who creates some to be counted righteous and some not, all arbitrarily because even the devils believe and there are those who will believe, have faith, for a while, and then fall away. Who caused them to fall away if they are only saved by “faith alone” and nothing they can do can affect it?


But God is not a respecter of persons:

“...God doesn't show favoritism; 35but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” Acts 10:34-35

What Jesus is talking about in the parable of the sower, is the value of the response. The response is up to us. That is the part we play in salvation, from beginning to end.

The “Faith alone” doctrine, taken at face value, would require us to be totally passive. That somehow God works good works through some people’s faith, and doesn’t through other people’s faith. That idea came into Christianity via the pagan doctrine of “fate” (which I’m not going to go into much with these posts). That is making God an unrighteous respecter of persons.


Notice how these verses explain “response”, as opposed to “works of righteousness of the law”:

“God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:20-21

The “answer of a good conscience is the answer”, or we could say, “the proper response”, to the commandments of God. God commanded Noah to build an ark to the saving of his house. Did Noah make this up on his own? No, then it wasn’t Noah’s works of righteousness, it was Noah’s answer of a good conscience to God. Did Abraham think up the idea that if he left his father’s house and sojourned in a distant land that God would accept him and count his faith for righteousness? No, he responded, with works just like Noah did, having a good conscience toward God.

Neither of them had to get themselves righteous according to the righteousness of the Mosaic law before God would commune with them, or count their faith as righteousness. But neither could they get out of responding by their work of God’s workmanship which God before ordained them to walk in.

Now look at the Pharisees who rejected the counsel of God against themselves:

“But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel of God, not being baptized by him themselves.” Luke 7:30

Response to the gospel is what was expected of them. Not the keeping of every jot and tittle of the law.

And therein explains your false dilemma. Paul was contending, in his day, of those who were insisting that Gentiles needed to be held to the law of Moses. But Paul was defending the righteousness of faith.

“For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing.” Romans 10:4

“Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.” Romans 3:27

Yes, even in “faith” there is a “law”, “the law of faith”, and it is contrasted to, not any and all “works”, such as the “works of faith”, but in contrast to the mosaic law. The “law of faith” speaks on this wise:

“He (Abraham) is the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had in uncircumcision.” Romans 4:12

By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out...” Hebrews 11:8

“They answered him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.” John 8:39

Synergy, not monergy. Not the monergy of man alone, not the monergy of God alone. Synergy of faith and works:

“21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought ("sunergo”/synergy) with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness... 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. -James 2:21-26.

“16Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'” Acts 22:16

“...in the days of Noah...souls, were saved through water. 21This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” 1 Peter 3:20-21

“4Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?” Romans 2:4

“2Jesus answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” Luke 13:2-3

Repentance is something we do, God leads us to it, but we have to respond properly, which is in faith, and walk in the steps and do the “works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10

God doesn’t do them for us; they are how we answer with a good conscience and show we have more than just the faith of devils; who believe and don’t do.
Part Three br br br So, ultimately, the source o... (show quote)



How was the thief on the cross saved?

Works are a result of what Jesus did for us, not what we do for him. Its evidence of the Holy Spirt working that took residence in us.
There is confusion as the two judgements. One are we written in the book of life , if yes we are sinless. The second judgement reserved only for the saved, were our works are judged by fire , not for punishment but for rewards, crowns.

Our good works before God are as filthy rags.

It is man's effort to not accept the simplicity of salvation by grace alone and some Christian churches add works sending Christians in ( Am I saved mode)
EVERY CULT (EVERY) adds works to salvation, something man has to do which discounts what out King, Lord and Savior did on the cross as a sacrificial lamb for man, all whom are genuine Christians.
Repentance is not a work and Christian's even repeat a sin that they have repented but go before the throne asking forgiveness. Not for salvation once saved but to keep a relationship with God.

What is sin

"To miss the mark"
Jesus made it clear that even thoughts are as committing a sin or missing the holy perfect mark God set.....Jesus set being perfect and sinless.

Repentance is not an act or work.
Repentance can be two things, not just one. First, to change or go the opposite direction. Repentance comes with remorse. It also means changing the way we think about sin. As a Christian convicted by the Holy Spirit "I hate sin" my sins against God. What would never cross my mind before being saved. I now become upset, even angry at sin, the sins I committed. I doubt a day goes by under the New Testament theocracy of God, that I don't in someway either commit a sin or not follow one of Jesus's commands.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature...Old things are passed away. All things become new"

This is only possible because of the Holy Spirt indwelling within us, not because of something we do.

The dogma that works are a part of salvation....clearly and completely contradicts scriptures.
Those that follow this doctrine have to try and justify a dozen plus scriptures, fitting a square cube in a round hole that Jesus paid the price for our sins.....PERIOD. now God sees us as snow white cleaned by the blood of Jesus.
Then those that follow works as needed for salvation have to read into scripture instead of works evidence of salvation, they twist it as needed for salvation.
As I stated before, name one cult that does not place works as a requirement of salvation.

The man dying in the hospital bed that put his life's interest and materials, ignoring the call to Jesus and accepts in full the gospel of Christ or the thief on the cross that within hours of death was saved.
These two never did Good works as a Christian or did good works as a part of salvation.
It the workers in the field and the ones that showed up just a few hours before the shift ended and the ones that had been working already several hours complaining because the ones who came late in the day, received the same reward, same pay, same benefit, regardless of when they showed up for work....8 hours of work or 2 minutes of work, they both receive the same pay.

Why..... not because of work they put in......because the grace of the master.

You are locked on your dogma. I'm certain your a good fellow wanting only to do right by God.
Jesus said, believe in your heart he died and was raised from the dead, confess with our mouths he is the Son of God and we will be saved.
At some point everyone that is a Christian first by the Holy Spirt realized they are sinful, have broken Gods laws and because of the Holy Spirits conviction are sad/Remorseful and sincerely ask forgiveness, they don't like that they sinned against God and turn away from their sin and/or change the way they think about sin...hating the sin they committed. They believe Jesus is the son of God/God in the flesh, that he was sinless but crucified/punishment as a sacrificial Lamb on the cross, shedding his Blood ,died on the cross and three days later he defeated sin and raised from the dead in his spiritual body, that because he defeated death, once saved, we to will defeat death and take on a spiritual body just as Jesus.

Baptism is following the command and even doing what Jesus did. Outward show to God and other men/women of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

Others that have done this are my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. If they believe in the rapture before the tribulation or after the tribulation, believing the wrong rapture or no rapture has nothing to do with their salvation, only not understanding or following wrong teachers. But if they get the Gospel and salvation through Jesus right, they are my brother and Sister in Christ.
God doesn't like it when some are lazy Christians , stay on milk, and their faith in God placing his path before them is always foggy, going their own path. Like the workers in the field he paid the wages of their sins, wrote their name in the book of life.
Dont confuse these with the ones that just went through the motions verses they sincerity of those with their hearts and minds accepting Jesus as their lord and Savior.
It is because of my inability not to sin, it is because of my inability to always do good works for God that I realize how dependent I am on Gods Grace.

Jack

Reply
Page <<first <prev 8 of 24 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2024 IDF International Technologies, Inc.