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Homosexuality is a sin, is it not?
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Jul 20, 2019 01:55:02   #
Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ
 
PeterS wrote:
Please read the Bible? Read our constitution. We are a secular nation and have been one since our founding. We don't govern our nation by what the bible says and we never have. If someone is a homosexual what the bible says is completely irrelevant. And other than an exercise in futility why are we even entertaining the idea of homosexuality? If someone is a homosexual that is their business and no one else's. And if we are going to view this through the eye of religion than an omnipotent and omnipresent god would have known the sins of his creation before he even created them! So if god didn't want homosexuals he wouldn't have created them!!!
Please read the Bible? Read our constitution. We a... (show quote)


So if the bible speaks of slavery to sin, or freedom from sin then that doesn't apply to our Constitution?

If the bible speaks about Murder, Stealing, or even false witnesses, that doesn't apply to the Constitution either, does it?

There are borders on freedom, so that the individual can flourish.
There are borders on restriction of freedom, so that the individual can flourish.
There are borders on religion and government so that society can flourish.

These borders should never be crossed, for crossing these borders causes all sorts of evil. Everywhere from bullying that causes prejudice, then discrimination and eventually racism.

Yet the progressives feel we should have freedom without responsibility.

That is the problem.

Ranger, should you kill a homosexual because they are homosexual? The answer to this question is no.
Ranger, should you kill a murderer because they murder? The answer to this question is yes.
Ranger, how do you find out whether or not the accused is guilty of the crime?

Through a legal and fair trial.

There are rules or borders so that a legal and fair trial can present the facts as we know them. How do we know the facts, we use reason. That reason has been developed by a secular thought process. For it is impossible to have a fair trial with conflicting ideologies through theology. Christians fight against Christians, Muslims fight against Muslims, and its well known that the Jews(Judah) fight against Jews(Samaritans). So to establish true Justice, it is right to find what is common amongst all three theologies.

Among what is common, is that all three religions believe in One God, and incidentally the same God. If you are mature you can understand, if you are not mature you will never understand.
Since they believe in the same God, the basic rules of the religions are similar--that is The Ten Commandments as explained by Moses.

For other religions, they have some form of the Ten Commandments which establishes ten basic rules to live by.

So lets break down the Ten Commandments for a minute:

1. Thou shalt not have any false gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make a carven image of a god, man or beast.
3. Thou shalt not take thy Lords Name in vain.
4. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath Day.

These first three commandments concern Man and his relationship to God. This establishes a respect from Man to God. All three religions recognize this.

5. Honor thy Mother and Father
6. Thou shall not murder
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
10. Thou shalt not covet.

These next five Commandments are commands that society needs in order to survive. They start with the family, then proceed to society. A healthy society will keep all ten of these commandments, a sick society will go against in one way or another these 10 commandments.

Now, the first four commandments concern the relationship man has with God. If this relationship is infringed upon by governments then the government is wrong. But when people exercising these four commandments are pushing their beliefs upon others, then that too is just like the government infringing upon the people. You can only follow these commandments through the freedom of the human condition, you cannot be forced to follow them. To do so is against God's will as well as the Constitution of the United States. You must be free of all distractions and come to your own conclusions.

If you are not free you cannot effectively decide anything. Whether or not you believe in God.

The next six commandments concern how we relate to each other.

By Honoring your mother and father, you will have a happy life.

By not committing murder, no man shall kill you. Now murder applies to the mind, body, and soul. However, the only one that can be proven physically is the murder of the body. Now there are also many ways to handle murder and many degrees of murder. Christians above Jews and Muslims, provide an avenue of forgiveness for Murder. For the Jews Murdered Jesus Christ, which freed humanity from Sin. You may look at that statement as anti-Semitic, but in reality, Jews are heroes, in the fact that, through the murder of the Son of God, Man can be forgiven.

Thou shalt not commit adultery, helps keep the distraction of human desire which causes the breaking of all these commandments, to stop. It protects the family. It keeps the family together, and builds fidelity of society. It builds upon the functions of a man and the functions of a woman, to create the image of God. Through the image of God, the family unit is secure and holds the true power of society... all societies. Homosexuality destroys this function as an act against nature. This is why Homosexuality is a sin. However, it is not right to kill a homosexual. Although the sinner, the homosexual, is powerless over their emotions, as the homosexual finds God through reason, the homosexual evolves from sinner to saint. This is the hope of Christians, however other religions, like the Jews and Muslims don't exercise this type of forgiveness.

Now, let me stop right here before continuing on to the other rules of a healthy society. Using reason based upon ancient knowledge, all Sin is equal before the eyes of God. Since all sin is equal before the eyes of God, then a murderer and a homosexual, a person who dishonors their father and mother, the Blasphemer, the one who does not honor the sabbath, all committed the same crime, they sinned against God. By Sinning against God, you sin against your fellow man, that is the covenant that was made between God and Man.

If you break the sin of stealing, lying, coveting, you are also a sinner, equal with the sinner described above.

If you break any of the commandments, you engage in all the phobias, racism, slavery, etc. By breaking any of these commandments, you injure your fellow human being, either physically, mentally, or spiritually. And when you break the commandments you enslave your fellow humans, to the point that anger is risen against you. The best form of punishment for all these sins is exile.

Through exile, the human person returns to their senses and can thus repent of the sins they committed. And under the fear of being alone, the human person develops a sense of repentance, and through repentance, hate is replaced with love. This forms redemption and forgiveness.

In Christ's prayer, "Forgives our trespasseses as We forgive those who trespass against us."

When you injure a person, if that person can forgive you then God can forgive you. The breaking of any Commandment injures someone, even if you don't know it. Until the injured person can forgive you, then God can't forgive you. If society determines that you are forgiven, then God will forgive you.

Now. Society created certain rules, among these rules are rights that protect you from sinning against your neighbor. Society created rules to reinforce the Ten Commandments. Among these rights is freedom of speech, right to assemble, the right to religion and the practice thereof, the right to bear arms, the right to have a fair trial, the right not to be torchered, the right to not speak for the purpose of being self-incriminated, the right to not be enslaved. The right to stand against tyranny. And I also agree with the right to be forgotten.

The right to be forgotten is a new concept. But the way it would work, is if I committed a sin, and paid my penance for that sin, and was forgiven, I have a right that my past sins, be forgotten.

Now, in law we don't have that yet, but in Law we prohibit certain acts that cause injury. That act in religious terms is called sin. If you break the law, you sin.

Just because you sin, or break the law, does not mean that you can't be forgiven. And to eliminate Religion which is inseparable from the human person, is to eliminate all sense of forgiveness.

Justice through faith and reason is called wisdom.

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 02:01:12   #
Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ
 
Just a question to put out there,

Name the president that implemented the first anti-sodomy laws of this great nation?
(I am defining sodomy as anal and oral sex. This was the definition of sodomy by the president who implemented these laws. He had Congress pass them.) You have 45 choices.

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 06:25:47   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
Ranger7374 wrote:
So if the bible speaks of slavery to sin, or freedom from sin then that doesn't apply to our Constitution?

If the bible speaks about Murder, Stealing, or even false witnesses, that doesn't apply to the Constitution either, does it?

There are borders on freedom, so that the individual can flourish.
There are borders on restriction of freedom, so that the individual can flourish.
There are borders on religion and government so that society can flourish.

These borders should never be crossed, for crossing these borders causes all sorts of evil. Everywhere from bullying that causes prejudice, then discrimination and eventually racism.

Yet the progressives feel we should have freedom without responsibility.

That is the problem.

Ranger, should you kill a homosexual because they are homosexual? The answer to this question is no.
Ranger, should you kill a murderer because they murder? The answer to this question is yes.
Ranger, how do you find out whether or not the accused is guilty of the crime?

Through a legal and fair trial.

There are rules or borders so that a legal and fair trial can present the facts as we know them. How do we know the facts, we use reason. That reason has been developed by a secular thought process. For it is impossible to have a fair trial with conflicting ideologies through theology. Christians fight against Christians, Muslims fight against Muslims, and its well known that the Jews(Judah) fight against Jews(Samaritans). So to establish true Justice, it is right to find what is common amongst all three theologies.

Among what is common, is that all three religions believe in One God, and incidentally the same God. If you are mature you can understand, if you are not mature you will never understand.
Since they believe in the same God, the basic rules of the religions are similar--that is The Ten Commandments as explained by Moses.

For other religions, they have some form of the Ten Commandments which establishes ten basic rules to live by.

So lets break down the Ten Commandments for a minute:

1. Thou shalt not have any false gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make a carven image of a god, man or beast.
3. Thou shalt not take thy Lords Name in vain.
4. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath Day.

These first three commandments concern Man and his relationship to God. This establishes a respect from Man to God. All three religions recognize this.

5. Honor thy Mother and Father
6. Thou shall not murder
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
10. Thou shalt not covet.

These next five Commandments are commands that society needs in order to survive. They start with the family, then proceed to society. A healthy society will keep all ten of these commandments, a sick society will go against in one way or another these 10 commandments.

Now, the first four commandments concern the relationship man has with God. If this relationship is infringed upon by governments then the government is wrong. But when people exercising these four commandments are pushing their beliefs upon others, then that too is just like the government infringing upon the people. You can only follow these commandments through the freedom of the human condition, you cannot be forced to follow them. To do so is against God's will as well as the Constitution of the United States. You must be free of all distractions and come to your own conclusions.

If you are not free you cannot effectively decide anything. Whether or not you believe in God.

The next six commandments concern how we relate to each other.

By Honoring your mother and father, you will have a happy life.

By not committing murder, no man shall kill you. Now murder applies to the mind, body, and soul. However, the only one that can be proven physically is the murder of the body. Now there are also many ways to handle murder and many degrees of murder. Christians above Jews and Muslims, provide an avenue of forgiveness for Murder. For the Jews Murdered Jesus Christ, which freed humanity from Sin. You may look at that statement as anti-Semitic, but in reality, Jews are heroes, in the fact that, through the murder of the Son of God, Man can be forgiven.

Thou shalt not commit adultery, helps keep the distraction of human desire which causes the breaking of all these commandments, to stop. It protects the family. It keeps the family together, and builds fidelity of society. It builds upon the functions of a man and the functions of a woman, to create the image of God. Through the image of God, the family unit is secure and holds the true power of society... all societies. Homosexuality destroys this function as an act against nature. This is why Homosexuality is a sin. However, it is not right to kill a homosexual. Although the sinner, the homosexual, is powerless over their emotions, as the homosexual finds God through reason, the homosexual evolves from sinner to saint. This is the hope of Christians, however other religions, like the Jews and Muslims don't exercise this type of forgiveness.

Now, let me stop right here before continuing on to the other rules of a healthy society. Using reason based upon ancient knowledge, all Sin is equal before the eyes of God. Since all sin is equal before the eyes of God, then a murderer and a homosexual, a person who dishonors their father and mother, the Blasphemer, the one who does not honor the sabbath, all committed the same crime, they sinned against God. By Sinning against God, you sin against your fellow man, that is the covenant that was made between God and Man.

If you break the sin of stealing, lying, coveting, you are also a sinner, equal with the sinner described above.

If you break any of the commandments, you engage in all the phobias, racism, slavery, etc. By breaking any of these commandments, you injure your fellow human being, either physically, mentally, or spiritually. And when you break the commandments you enslave your fellow humans, to the point that anger is risen against you. The best form of punishment for all these sins is exile.

Through exile, the human person returns to their senses and can thus repent of the sins they committed. And under the fear of being alone, the human person develops a sense of repentance, and through repentance, hate is replaced with love. This forms redemption and forgiveness.

In Christ's prayer, "Forgives our trespasseses as We forgive those who trespass against us."

When you injure a person, if that person can forgive you then God can forgive you. The breaking of any Commandment injures someone, even if you don't know it. Until the injured person can forgive you, then God can't forgive you. If society determines that you are forgiven, then God will forgive you.

Now. Society created certain rules, among these rules are rights that protect you from sinning against your neighbor. Society created rules to reinforce the Ten Commandments. Among these rights is freedom of speech, right to assemble, the right to religion and the practice thereof, the right to bear arms, the right to have a fair trial, the right not to be torchered, the right to not speak for the purpose of being self-incriminated, the right to not be enslaved. The right to stand against tyranny. And I also agree with the right to be forgotten.

The right to be forgotten is a new concept. But the way it would work, is if I committed a sin, and paid my penance for that sin, and was forgiven, I have a right that my past sins, be forgotten.

Now, in law we don't have that yet, but in Law we prohibit certain acts that cause injury. That act in religious terms is called sin. If you break the law, you sin.

Just because you sin, or break the law, does not mean that you can't be forgiven. And to eliminate Religion which is inseparable from the human person, is to eliminate all sense of forgiveness.

Justice through faith and reason is called wisdom.
So if the bible speaks of slavery to sin, or freed... (show quote)


Impressive! With the exception of a few minor details, I totally agree with what you are saying.
In particular, the following quote caught my eye. You said:
"Now, the first four commandments concern the relationship man has with God. If this relationship is infringed upon by governments then the government is wrong. But when people exercising these four commandments are pushing their beliefs upon others, then that too is just like the government infringing upon the people. You can only follow these commandments through the freedom of the human condition, you cannot be forced to follow them. To do so is against God's will as well as the Constitution of the United States. You must be free of all distractions and come to your own conclusions. "

This comes strikingly close to what I have been trying to say throughout my posts, that we must not have even the whiff of a state religion, nor can we have religious intrusions alien to our own into our private lives. To sum it up I think that the following quote applies: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's." In our multicultural society, we must have this kind of separation between church and state, and maintain tolerance for dissenting and non-conforming religious (and other) views. We do have common interests, and racism, fascism, and bigotry do not enter into that equation.
Thank you again for your post ... I found it most enjoyable and on point. Keep up the good work!

Reply
 
 
Jul 20, 2019 09:58:38   #
Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ
 
whitnebrat wrote:
Impressive! With the exception of a few minor details, I totally agree with what you are saying.
In particular, the following quote caught my eye. You said:
"Now, the first four commandments concern the relationship man has with God. If this relationship is infringed upon by governments then the government is wrong. But when people exercising these four commandments are pushing their beliefs upon others, then that too is just like the government infringing upon the people. You can only follow these commandments through the freedom of the human condition, you cannot be forced to follow them. To do so is against God's will as well as the Constitution of the United States. You must be free of all distractions and come to your own conclusions. "

This comes strikingly close to what I have been trying to say throughout my posts, that we must not have even the whiff of a state religion, nor can we have religious intrusions alien to our own into our private lives. To sum it up I think that the following quote applies: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's." In our multicultural society, we must have this kind of separation between church and state, and maintain tolerance for dissenting and non-conforming religious (and other) views. We do have common interests, and racism, fascism, and bigotry do not enter into that equation.
Thank you again for your post ... I found it most enjoyable and on point. Keep up the good work!
Impressive! With the exception of a few minor deta... (show quote)


Thank you for your comment. Only wisdom will solve our problems today. And in many ways ancient wisdom is the key...

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 19:42:26   #
maxcorn
 
whitnebrat wrote:
While I appreciate your historical screed, I must point out that the ultimate enforcer of any moral creed is the government under which it is established. That is the ultimate and immediate stick which cudgels people into submission to the civil and criminal laws. The carrot is (for the religiously inclined) is the promise of heaven, forty-seven virgins or whatever. For those that do not partake of the religious moral code, it is only the government that keeps the society in order with enforceable laws.
When one religion takes control of the government, they always tend to try to enforce their own morality on the entire population. The lessons of history show this a multitude of times. If the people that disagree have nowhere to go to escape this, it is a constant thorn in both their and the government's side.
There are a few basic tenets that show up throughout history as moral values that every society has adopted; namely prohibitions against murder, theft, lying and bonking your neighbor's wife. Other than this, there are not too many similarities in the moral codes of the various religions. These are also the bedrock of keeping a society civil.
When societies go beyond these all-encompassing basic values, they tend to oppress minorities and their own population. That is all too clear in the Chinese suppression of the Ugher(sp) Moslem population in western China. It is also clear in the suppression of Christian believers in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other Middle East countries. It almost always happens, when a government becomes a theocracy.
It happened in our own country, as is chronicled in your post above. The CofE was a virtual theocracy that forced the Protestants to either submit or move ... creating the religious colonies that eventually became the United States. Since they couldn't agree on dogma (which governed the government as well in each state), the Constitution did indeed include the First Amendment regarding religion. It is interesting to note that not all of the states agreed to that amendment, since their own state constitutions included much of their religious morals, and they were loathe to give up that strict conduct set of laws.
All in all, to attempt to go back to a set of moral codes such as Rhode Island or Massachusetts had in the 1600's is to attempt to circumvent the First Amendment. Whether you like it or not, we are going multi-cultural and there's no getting around that. And to attempt to force all of these diverse segments of the population into a "Christian" mold is doomed to ultimate failure unless you want to form a theocracy. That's not something that I want to see, and neither will most others.
While I appreciate your historical screed, I must ... (show quote)

Ah, yes, said "govt can't even control borders. By all means they are the "smartest in the room" by far, no?

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 20:15:44   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
maxcorn wrote:
Ah, yes, said "govt can't even control borders. By all means they are the "smartest in the room" by far, no?

No, they aren't the smartest in the room, but it far surpasses the dogmatic approach that most religions have towards governing.
I still maintain that of the two evils (government or religion), I think the freer and more tolerant governing body would be a civil government, rather than subjecting one and all to a theocracy. If you want examples, check out Cromwell's reign in Britain, or the whole of Sharia law for Islam, or for a more dramatic example, remember Hitler's time in Germany (which was actually based on religion).

Just my humble opinion.

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 20:32:41   #
maxcorn
 
whitnebrat wrote:
No, they aren't the smartest in the room, but it far surpasses the dogmatic approach that most religions have towards governing.
I still maintain that of the two evils (government or religion), I think the freer and more tolerant governing body would be a civil government, rather than subjecting one and all to a theocracy. If you want examples, check out Cromwell's reign in Britain, or the whole of Sharia law for Islam, or for a more dramatic example, remember Hitler's time in Germany (which was actually based on religion).

Just my humble opinion.
No, they aren't the smartest in the room, but it f... (show quote)


I wasn't in any way disagreeing with your assessment. I was merely stating that even governments are flawed. The main reason of government is supposed to be to run a country and protect its citizens. Only since 2016 has America had a real leader, flaws and all. Now, if we the people could do something about the selfish, American hating left, rogue judges and all. As I stated you are correct about any theocracy.

Reply
 
 
Jul 20, 2019 20:35:54   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
whitnebrat wrote:
Impressive! With the exception of a few minor details, I totally agree with what you are saying.
In particular, the following quote caught my eye. You said:
"Now, the first four commandments concern the relationship man has with God. If this relationship is infringed upon by governments then the government is wrong. But when people exercising these four commandments are pushing their beliefs upon others, then that too is just like the government infringing upon the people. You can only follow these commandments through the freedom of the human condition, you cannot be forced to follow them. To do so is against God's will as well as the Constitution of the United States. You must be free of all distractions and come to your own conclusions. "

This comes strikingly close to what I have been trying to say throughout my posts, that we must not have even the whiff of a state religion, nor can we have religious intrusions alien to our own into our private lives. To sum it up I think that the following quote applies: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's." In our multicultural society, we must have this kind of separation between church and state, and maintain tolerance for dissenting and non-conforming religious (and other) views. We do have common interests, and racism, fascism, and bigotry do not enter into that equation.
Thank you again for your post ... I found it most enjoyable and on point. Keep up the good work!
Impressive! With the exception of a few minor deta... (show quote)


When you say it this way I agree with you totally.

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 20:52:09   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
Ranger7374 wrote:
Just a question to put out there,

Name the president that implemented the first anti-sodomy laws of this great nation?
(I am defining sodomy as anal and oral sex. This was the definition of sodomy by the president who implemented these laws. He had Congress pass them.) You have 45 choices.


I'm going to guess it was Obama.

Not sure I totally understand the question. By anti-sodomy are you saying he passed laws that struck down or eliminated sodomy laws? I'm guessing Obama did so with the military. Wasn't the real deal changer Lawrence v. Texas in SCOTUS? Ah, slouching toward Gomorrah!

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 20:54:17   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
May I refer you to the attached file, from Will Durant's 'Lessons of History.' He lays out the whole concept between religion and government far better than I can. I urge you to read it.

Attached file:
(Download)

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 20:54:36   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
maxcorn wrote:
I wasn't in any way disagreeing with your assessment. I was merely stating that even governments are flawed. The main reason of government is supposed to be to run a country and protect its citizens. Only since 2016 has America had a real leader, flaws and all. Now, if we the people could do something about the selfish, American hating left, rogue judges and all. As I stated you are correct about any theocracy.


Yes, If men were angels, there would be no need for government.

Reply
 
 
Jul 20, 2019 20:56:39   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
dtucker300 wrote:
When you say it this way I agree with you totally.

Sometimes I don't get it right the first time ... thankee for the kudo. <curtseying>

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 21:20:40   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
whitnebrat wrote:
May I refer you to the attached file, from Will Durant's 'Lessons of History.' He lays out the whole concept between religion and government far better than I can. I urge you to read it.


Excellent! Thank you for posting this.

Reply
Jul 20, 2019 21:21:20   #
maxcorn
 
dtucker300 wrote:
Yes, If men were angels, there would be no need for government.


Eloquently stated.

Reply
Jul 22, 2019 02:09:58   #
Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ
 
dtucker300 wrote:
I'm going to guess it was Obama.

Not sure I totally understand the question. By anti-sodomy are you saying he passed laws that struck down or eliminated sodomy laws? I'm guessing Obama did so with the military. Wasn't the real deal changer Lawrence v. Texas in SCOTUS? Ah, slouching toward Gomorrah!


Anti sodomy laws are laws that prohibit sodomy(that is anal and oral sex. Sex with more than one person)

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