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Homosexuality is a sin, is it not?
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Jul 18, 2019 10:03:41   #
bylm1-Bernie
 
maxcorn wrote:
We are to continue spreading the Gospel to the 4 corners of the earth. Those that reject it are a stiffnecked people. We're to shake the dust off our feet, leave that place never to look back and not offer Godspeed to any inhabitants.



I guess my question of "what to do" was somewhat rhetorical. Of course you are right. We must continue to spread the Gospel even if they say we are jamming it down throats. It's there on the table, for anyone to take or leave.

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Jul 18, 2019 10:44:45   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Ranger7374 wrote:
You get rebuked by St. Paul, "Faith without works is dead"


That was James.

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Jul 18, 2019 11:48:19   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
That was James.

No Biblical scholar here, but...

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faith-and-works-paul-vs-james.html

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Jul 18, 2019 13:31:26   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 


I wasn't speaking theologically. I was pointing out that it was actually James who stated, in the Book of James, "Faith, without works, is dead," (There are various versions but James is attributed with the general saying of it.)

James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

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Jul 18, 2019 13:39:08   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
I wasn't speaking theologically. I was pointing out that it was actually James who stated, in the Book of James, "Faith, without works, is dead," (There are various versions but James is attributed with the general saying of it.)

James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
I wasn't speaking theologically. I was pointing o... (show quote)

Oh, I agree with you, Nwtk. I was simply trying to point out the conflict among Christians as to whether Paul or James deserved credit for the scriptures distinguishing between 'Faith' and 'works'.

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Jul 18, 2019 13:53:07   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
slatten49 wrote:
Oh, I agree with you, Nwtk. I was simply trying to point out the conflict among Christians as to whether Paul or James deserved credit for the scriptures distinguishing between 'Faith' and 'works'.


Yeah, some get into arguments about it. Paul seemed to say that we are made righteous in God's eyes by our faith but James came along and said that the faith, if not backed up by "faithful" works, was actually worthless in the eyes of God. I never saw a contradiction, myself. Once God declares us to be righteous in his eyes because of our faith, it would just naturally follow that the righteous person would continue their life performing works demonstrating that. It's a variation of the once saved, always saved. A "saved" person will continue to live and behave as a saved person. A truly saved person would not go back to an ungodly life, figuring he was saved so why bother with the effort of acting like it. There are even other variations on this. Gods grace, being given freely, saves us. the more sinful, the greater the grace needed, or so it might be. Paul contemplated this, saying that God's grace becomes more evident the more sinful we are, but it would not follow that we should sin more such that Gods grace might abound even more. LOL!

The works of Paul are, in many ways, his "wool gathering" thoughts, I truly believe.

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Jul 18, 2019 17:05:30   #
Mr. Rogers
 
Galatians 1:11-12
. 11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13

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Jul 18, 2019 17:21:34   #
Mr. Rogers
 
Ranger7374 wrote:
God's Law, the Law of Nature and the Natural Law, adheres to the solutions described in the Law of Moses(Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers)

Man's Law is separate from God's Law.

Here's where the controversy occurs. God gave man, first through the Covenant of Israel, then by the Covenant of Jesus Christ, the power to establish justice through the law of Moses and Jesus Christ. This part of the facts are somewhat unknown so bear with me....

Through observation whenever Man's law follows God's law, the law is just. and When Man enforces the law in this manner, God's judgment does not have to be done for Man already did it. But when Man's law does not follow God's law, or if Man's law is not upheld, then God renders judgement. This goes for both unjust laws, God will render Judgement and may pose that judgment against Man that does not seek justice for violation of God's and Man's laws.

Whew!. That was tough to describe.

But by examining history which I am a student of, I notice that this is true. Many distractions may distract from what both man and God are doing... Remember God placed Man as Steward of the Earth. God delegated the powers of the earth to man. Therefore, man has the power through both God, Moses, and Christ to judge. If that judgement is aligned with the Law of Nature, then God is satisfied. If that judgement is not aligned with God, then God will render a judgement that is worse than any judgement Man could apply.

Please observe justice in history. Examine each empire and nation with a clear open mind. And you will see how it works. Also know that man is learning, and due to the fact that man is learning how to live, man has made big mistakes. In world history it seems that God drifts from nation to nation, when in fact it is the nation that becomes closer or further away from God.
God's Law, the Law of Nature and the Natural Law, ... (show quote)


Mathew 17:1-5
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

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Jul 18, 2019 17:44:29   #
Mr. Rogers
 
whitnebrat wrote:
It is obvious after thirty-seven pages of rhetoric, that those of a religious bent are not inclined to modify their beliefs, and it is equally obvious (having lived in San Francisco for many years) that the LGBTQ community is over-reacting, having been given an opportunity gain acceptance (as little as it has been so far). There are vehement extremists on both sides.
I abhor the LGBTQ person that flaunts it in my face as much as I become aggravated when an overly evangelistic believer tries to convert me to their way of thinking.
The more problematic situation is that where the true believer believes that they have the right to impose their beliefs upon the entire population. This is a multi-cultural society, whether we like it or not. I don't hear a major uproar over the people that practice voodoo or Sangria, whereas the brouhaha over Same Sex Marriage has reached astronomical heights recently. Why is there no outrage over other things that conflict with the Christian religion?
Where I draw the line is with both of these extremes. Just because the LGBTQ community is now a little freer to live their lives as they want, it does not give them license to force that lifestyle on everyone else. Likewise, just because the religious side of the house has political power to abuse the LGBTQ community for moral and religious beliefs by codifying laws against their behavior, it shouldn't morally do so. Religious beliefs are just that ... beliefs that belong in the home and the house of worship. LGBTQ should equally not seek to adopt an "in your face" attitude when confronted by over-zealous religionists.
We live in a democratic republic, where everyone is granted the same rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." I can no more force my beliefs on them, than they can on me. It is time to keep our religions out of the public square and keep our sexual habits in our bedrooms.
It is obvious after thirty-seven pages of rhetoric... (show quote)


Laws are necessary for safe and orderly conduct in any house, dwelling place or society. Mutual respect for the human needs and inalienable rights of self and others should be the name of the game. It should be OK to share one's religious or cultural beliefs with others, but no one should be forced or coerced to convert or join to any religious or cultural sect against their will. Certain moral standards should be upheld and exemplified in multicultural settings. Obscenity and indecency should be banned.

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Jul 18, 2019 20:41:37   #
maxcorn
 
bylm1-Bernie wrote:
I guess my question of "what to do" was somewhat rhetorical. Of course you are right. We must continue to spread the Gospel even if they say we are jamming it down throats. It's there on the table, for anyone to take or leave.



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Jul 19, 2019 00:51:55   #
Ranger7374 Loc: Arizona, 40 miles from the border in the DMZ
 
Mr. Rogers wrote:
Laws are necessary for safe and orderly conduct in any house, dwelling place or society. Mutual respect for the human needs and inalienable rights of self and others should be the name of the game. It should be OK to share one's religious or cultural beliefs with others, but no one should be forced or coerced to convert or join to any religious or cultural sect against their will. Certain moral standards should be upheld and exemplified in multicultural settings. Obscenity and indecency should be banned.
Laws are necessary for safe and orderly conduct in... (show quote)


Agreed!

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Jul 19, 2019 00:53:17   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
Ranger7374 wrote:
Agreed!


Just laws and enforcement.

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Jul 19, 2019 01:55:57   #
PeterS
 
Mr. Rogers wrote:
Please read the Bible so we can have an intelligent conversation on this topic!

Adam and Eve invited sin into the world. Sin has made our world imperfect.

God is omnipresent and oversees all. Christ lives in the heart, mind and spirit of true Christians.

God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth. New Jerusalem (the city of God) will come down from heaven to this new earth. There will be no more sea.

Those who have not obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ will be in torment, forever, in the lake of fire and brimstone, each day that Christ reigns as King of kings and Lord of Lords, which the Bible declares will be forever and ever.
Please read the Bible so we can have an intelligen... (show quote)

Please read the Bible? Read our constitution. We are a secular nation and have been one since our founding. We don't govern our nation by what the bible says and we never have. If someone is a homosexual what the bible says is completely irrelevant. And other than an exercise in futility why are we even entertaining the idea of homosexuality? If someone is a homosexual that is their business and no one else's. And if we are going to view this through the eye of religion than an omnipotent and omnipresent god would have known the sins of his creation before he even created them! So if god didn't want homosexuals he wouldn't have created them!!!

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Jul 19, 2019 02:10:40   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
PeterS wrote:
Please read the Bible? Read our constitution. We are a secular nation and have been one since our founding. We don't govern our nation by what the bible says and we never have. If someone is a homosexual what the bible says is completely irrelevant. And other than an exercise in futility why are we even entertaining the idea of homosexuality? If someone is a homosexual that is their business and no one else's. And if we are going to view this through the eye of religion than an omnipotent and omnipresent god would have known the sins of his creation before he even created them! So if god didn't want homosexuals he wouldn't have created them!!!
Please read the Bible? Read our constitution. We a... (show quote)



Yes PeterS, Please do, read the Bible, and the Constitution. You appear to be bright. Then you open your mouth removing all doubt, thus proving that light travels faster than sound. You don't understand what "secular" means.

https://www.prageru.com/video/religious-tolerance-made-in-america/

Each year the President of the United States lights a national Christmas tree, hosts a Hanukkah party at the White House and issues a proclamation honoring Ramadan. Only in America.

Indeed, America is known for religious tolerance. In fact, it is not an exaggeration to say that America, where people of all faiths are free to worship (or not worship) as they please, invented modern religious tolerance. This tolerance, which Americans take for granted, didn't exist anywhere in the world before America invented it. How did this happen?

To answer that we have to look to America's origins which were overwhelmingly religious and, to be precise, overwhelmingly Christian. To put it another way, America became the religiously open nation that we know today because it was first a Christian nation, specifically a Protestant one.

Let me explain.

Until the beginning of the 16th Century religious life in Europe was dominated by the Catholic Church. All religious power was concentrated in the Pope and the Catholic clergy. They determined religious doctrine. The power structure was top down. All that changed in 1517 when Martin Luther, a German priest, led a revolt that came to be known as the Protestant Reformation. The theme of the Reformation was that people should be free to interpret the Bible and manage their houses of worship as they saw fit -- a bottom up power structure.

The most zealous of England's Reformers were known as the Puritans, so called because they wanted to purify the Church of England. Some of these Puritans became so disenchanted they decided they had no choice but to leave England. Only in the New World of America, untainted by European prejudices, could they practice their Protestant Christianity in its purest form. We know these hardy souls as Pilgrims. The strength of their conviction can easily be measured by the incredible risks they took in crossing the North Atlantic on small wooden sailing ships, of which The Mayflower was only one.

True to their religious background these early settlers, and those that followed, were fiercely independent. Given that the Puritans believed that people should read and interpret scripture for themselves, how could it be otherwise? Not surprisingly, it didn't take long before disputes broke out among the settlers regarding doctrine. In fact, the colony of Rhode Island was established in 1638 as a haven for some of these dissidents.

Throughout the 17th century more colonists arrived, including Catholics and Jews but their numbers remained small relative to the Protestant majority. All the way through American Independence in 1776 and the Revolutionary War that followed Protestants remained dominant. But with more settlers came more religious discord. The only thing that everyone could agree on was that religion, specifically Christianity -- firmly rooted, it is important to note, in the Hebrew Scriptures -- was central to the new nation's life.

When the colonies became states and wrote their state constitutions, they were noticeably Christian in their language and tone. But beyond that there was little uniformity. Some states granted privileges to specific religions while others expressed religious freedom for everyone; Delaware required an oath of office that professed faith in God and Jesus Christ; North Carolina prohibited any atheist or one who denied "the truth of the Protestant religion" to hold office; a handful of states required office holders to be Christians, some others required public officials to simply state they believed in God. On the other hand, five states prohibited clergy from holding office.

This crazy quilt, anyone can interpret scripture on their own, state-by-state, church-by-church character of early American religious practice, which was both distinctly Protestant and uniquely American, led to the atmosphere of tolerance that was present at the founding of the nation. Indeed, it's enshrined in the First Amendment to the US Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Given America's English and European roots, places where governments officially sanctioned one religion, this was a singular advance in human freedom. So, when the President of the United States lights a national Christmas tree, hosts a Hanukkah party at the White House and issues a proclamation honoring Ramadan, we should thank those headstrong Puritans.

Continue to next post.

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Jul 19, 2019 02:14:04   #
dtucker300 Loc: Vista, CA
 
PeterS wrote:
Please read the Bible? Read our constitution. We are a secular nation and have been one since our founding. We don't govern our nation by what the bible says and we never have. If someone is a homosexual what the bible says is completely irrelevant. And other than an exercise in futility why are we even entertaining the idea of homosexuality? If someone is a homosexual that is their business and no one else's. And if we are going to view this through the eye of religion than an omnipotent and omnipresent god would have known the sins of his creation before he even created them! So if god didn't want homosexuals he wouldn't have created them!!!
Please read the Bible? Read our constitution. We a... (show quote)


https://www.prageru.com/video/was-america-founded-to-be-secular/

What role should religion play in a free society? More and more people today would answer: none. That would not have been the answer of the Founders of the United States – the men who fought the American Revolution and wrote the country’s Constitution.

To them the issue of religion and freedom were inextricably linked. You couldn’t have freedom without religion. In fact, the political philosophy of the Founders necessitated a divine foundation.

Thomas Jefferson makes this clear in the Declaration of Independence when he writes that “all men…are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.” The purpose of government, Jefferson and his compatriots believed, was not to bestow rights; rather, it was to protect those rights already endowed upon human beings by God.

But government isn’t enough for a free society. A moral people is also required; that is, a people moral enough to police itself. “Virtue or morality,” George Washington observed, “is a necessary spring of popular government.” Thus, for the Founders, liberty was not merely the ability to do what one wanted; it came with moral demands and boundaries.

They all accepted the rule of life expressed by Benjamin Franklin: “Nothing brings more pain than too much pleasure; nothing more bondage than too much liberty.”

The Founders knew that the absolute enemy of freedom was – ironically – a freedom that was absolute and unrestrained. And where was this restraint going to come from? Their answer was religion, which for them – because of when and where they lived – was some variety of Christianity.

“Let Divines, and Philosophers, Statesmen and Patriots unite,” Samuel Adams wrote, “[in] instructing [citizens] in the Art of self-government…in short, of leading them in the Study, and Practice of the exalted Virtues of the Christian system.”

The Christian system to which Adams refers is composed of Judeo-Christian values – the values rooted in the Old and New Testaments, both of which were referred to by the Founders with equal conviction and frequency.

Jefferson – yes, the very same Thomas Jefferson who is so often portrayed as anti-religious – confirmed this sentiment in his Notes on the State of Virginia, when he asked: “[C]an the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? [And] that they are not to be violated but with his wrath?”

James Madison likewise affirmed the essential connection between religion and morality: “The belief in a God All Powerful, wise, and good is. . . essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man. . . .”

John Adams believed that “the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe,” a doctrine he credited to Judaism, was the “great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization.” And he applied this thinking specifically to the new nation he helped to create: “Our Constitution,” he said, “was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

As President, he replied to a letter from university students in a way that would surprise many today: “Science, liberty, and religion . . . have an inseparable union. Without their joint influence no society can be great, flourishing, or happy.”

Meanwhile another Founder, Alexander Hamilton, looked at the French Revolution and saw something much different. That revolution, unlike the American Revolution, had devolved into violence and chaos. Hamilton believed he understood why. The anti-religious force it unleashed, he wrote, “annihilates the foundations of social order and true liberty, confounds all moral distinctions and substitutes [for] the mild and beneficent religion of the Gospel a gloomy, persecuting, and desolating atheism.”

For the Founders, a free society divorced from religion simply could not work and would not survive. It is no wonder then that in his Farewell Address, George Washington chastised those who would claim to be patriots, and yet undermine the influence of religion: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.”

The Founders did not demand that anyone believe in any particular religion or even in God – quite the contrary. But while they understood the value of a secular government, they feared a secular society – one without religion.

So should we.

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