susanblange Loc: USA

I'm really not interested in Christian theology. God in Heaven is a spirit, not flesh and blood. He has temporarily come to earth and he inhabits the body of a woman. Upon his death, he will return to Heaven in spirit form and then be resurrected with all the angels on the mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4. Zechariah 14:5. "...and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee". I serve the God of Forces and that is my Maker. Daniel 11:38. "But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces..." Isaiah 54:5. "For thy Maker is thine husband..."

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

I'm "really not interested" in your theology either.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

Once again you are mocking those who do not accept your monadic perspective.

If we agree that God is an eternal, multi-dimensional, infinite creative intelligence, then how can we, with our finite and very limited minds, presume to comprehend the totality of His being? We are not here to determine who or what He is, we are here to learn from God Himself who He is and why we must pursue a relationship with Him.

Those of us who embrace the Triune nature of God do not see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as "personalities", as if God is suffering some sort of dissociative identity disorder, we only perceive these as aspects of a multi-dimensional Creator, much the same as we see our own mind, heart and soul as aspects of being a multi-dimensional human. We do not question the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the diversity of their purposes.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Tom Raddatz, This entire elaborate, multi-worded hoax you are trying to foist upon others is based upon your blind acceptance of the English wording, as if it were the language of the original text, which it was not, having not even been in existence at the time the Bible was written down.

You have been shown repeatedly that the nouns which refer to God in the original Hebrew are plural, accompanied by a verb of singularity.

You, Tom Raddatz, are being intentionally deceitful, as you attempt to destroy the meaning of God's Word. You deny the power that God, the Holy Spirit has exercised for the two thousand years of Christianity, as He has been the indwelling teacher, counselor, comforter and guide of every Christian.

In your many words, you have shown no wisdom, no love, no compassion for a suffering world or a spiritually lost mankind.

Your only red hot focus is the destruction of those authentic Christians who truly understand God's Biblical message and refuse to cowtow (Koutou: the act of kneeling and touching one's head to the ground as a salute or act of worship to a revered authority in traditional China) to you as though you were Satan's personal emissary, for Satan's only motivation is to be worshiped as though he were God, and he works overtime to receive that adulation through any front man he is able to seduce into representing him.

Rave on to your heart's content, for every word, as well as the motivation of your heart, is being recorded in heaven as you speak.

As He has promised, the church of Jesus Christ rests securely in the Hand of God, the Father, and He will not lose one of them from His hand.

Unless you repent of your misrepresentation of God and your deliberate harassment of faithful Christians such as Rose42, and accept the Triune God as He is, you are shutting yourself off from the Kingdom of God.

Writing a thousand pages of lies will avail you nothing but stubby fingers and a lacerated tongue.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Heaven forbid...
I'm stunned at how offended and defensive certain members are here...
Seems like it is fine to mock or belittle certain beliefs, but the nerve of questioning their beliefs...



Perhaps someone could ask him and then tell us? A prophet (like Moses) or even the Messiah (Christ).... Then we could put this information in a book (Bible) so that future generations would have a blueprint...
Just an idea....



Sounds right...
Except that pretty much the First question Moses asked God was.........? (care to fill in the blank?)



Perhaps those of you who "embrace the Triune nature of God" could be a little less condecending to those of us who don't?
Some of us view God as a single entity... One...



No....You (plural; in response to your use of the pronoun "we") only question those who disagree with you...
All the while attempting to show how they are the bigotted ones....


It might seem like I am taking sides here... But in all honesty I like you Blade... I just don't enjoy how this thread has turned...

When Tommy laid out his initial argument to you I was rather excited... It was well reasoned, well written, and seemed to fullfill the requirements of many (must interpret the Bible with the Bible; use sources; no fallacies) yet it was not well-received...
Why not?
Since then there have been many attempts to refute Tommy... Ad hominem and smears; shots at other Unitarian Churches(with no knowledge of where Tommy practices); derision of his sources (early Christians aren't a legitimate source ) ;ad populum arguments; and many attempts to deflect from the premises of Tommy's argument....

Examples:
God is clear about this ～ We have to infer it...

Use Scripture to interpret Scripture ～ You're using it wrong....

You have to go to teachers who understand the Bible ～ Not those ones, the ones who agree with me...

You can only understand the Bible if you read it my way, once you accept that I am right you will see that the Bible supports this position...

Satan knows his Scripture as well...
One must reject false teachers...
The arguments aren't even worth reading...



Yet the only person on the thread who actively engaged Tommy with a counter-argument (not a refutation of his argument, but an argument that appeared to support her premise of the Trinity) was Zemirah... And I give her high points for that... And Tommy responded and engaged her argument directly... The way one should when one is attempting to defend one's premise...

I wish PadreMike were feeling more active and had been able to join us... We could have seen some real dialogue (fiery too) betwen him and Tommy... And I bet they would have loved it and come away friends (if they're not already... They have identical views concerning the progressive threat to America)...

Not a single person on the thread has chosen to engage the argument and now you are calling for peace because you have the right to believe as you wish

I agree... Absolutely... But that applies to those of us who don't agree with you as well...

Stay strong Blade... You're still one of the better posters on the forum...

Your friend and brother, Kyle


PS: I am not overly happy with many of my own words/actions on this thread... And I once again offer my apologies to those I have wronged/offended...

whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon

I would question why there is such a kerfuffle about all this theological stuff. Those that believe one way are going to continue to believe that way, while others will do something different. Unless there is substantive proof in one direction or another, it's a moot point. And quoting the Bible is not proof ... it is a product of man (perhaps divinely inspired), and most of the copies these days are translations from translations of other interpretations ... which begs the question as to whether any mistakes in translation or bias on the part of the translator could have influenced the result. I personally see no point in arguing these details, since no minds will be changed and it only results in animosity and rhetorical flourishes. Fifty-eight pages worth of it, too. Sheeze!!!!

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

TomRadd, regarding your disparagement of Proverbs 10:19, you are mocking God.

In the scripture verse you find inadequate, as you well know, God does not specify a specific number.

The exercise of common sense is required, something with which you have clearly demonstrated, you have no acquaintance.

Proverbs 10:19:

New International Version
Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.

New Living Translation
Too much talk leads to sin. Be sensible and keep your mouth shut.

English Standard Version
When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.

Berean Study Bible
When words are many, sin is unavoidable, but he who restrains his lips is wise.

New American Standard Bible
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.

King James Bible
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

Christian Standard Bible
When there are many words, sin is unavoidable, but the one who controls his lips is prudent.

Contemporary English Version
You will say the wrong thing if you talk too much--so be sensible and watch what you say.

Good News Translation
The more you talk, the more likely you are to sin. If you are wise, you will keep quiet.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When there are many words, sin is unavoidable, but the one who controls his lips is wise.

International Standard Version
Transgression is at work where people talk too much, but anyone who holds his tongue is prudent.

NET Bible
When words abound, transgression is inevitable, but the one who restrains his words is wise.

New Heart English Bible
In the multitude of words there is no lack of disobedience, but he who restrains his lips does wisely.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the multitude of words the evil one is not saved and he who restrains his lips is intelligent.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Sin is unavoidable when there is much talk, but whoever seals his lips is wise.

JPS Tanakh 1917
In the multitude of words there wanteth not transgression; But he that refraineth his lips is wise.

New American Standard 1977
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.

Jubilee Bible 2000
In the multitude of words there is no lack of rebellion, but he that refrains his lips is wise.

King James 2000 Bible
In the multitude of words there lacks not sin: but he that refrains his lips is wise.

American King James Version
In the multitude of words there wants not sin: but he that refrains his lips is wise.

American Standard Version
In the multitude of words there wanteth not transgression; But he that refraineth his lips doeth wisely.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
By a multitude of words thou shalt not escape sin; but if thou refrain thy lips thou wilt be prudent.

Douay-Rheims Bible
In the multitude of words there shall not want sin: but he that refraineth his lips is most wise.

Darby Bible Translation
In the multitude of words there wanteth not transgression; but he that restraineth his lips doeth wisely.

English Revised Version
In the multitude of words there wanteth not transgression: but he that refraineth his lips doeth wisely.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that restraineth his lips is wise.

World English Bible
In the multitude of words there is no lack of disobedience, but he who restrains his lips does wisely.

Young's Literal Translation
In the abundance of words transgression ceaseth not, And whoso is restraining his lips is wise.


Your constant failure to recognize/perceive what God has written, and your persistent insistence that verses God has not written be provided to you, as well as your inability to accept what He has written as final, make your inability to make your irrational demands known in any fewer than five pages of script on an internet forum thread is a glaring example of " a multitude of words of transgression."

If you are unable to envision yourself in every one of these versions of Proverbs 10:19, proceed forthwith to the nearest seller of dry goods and purchase yourself a new mirror posthaste.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

I really don't need another sermon.

I am simply stating my belief that Almighty God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One.

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

May I add a couple more.

1599 Geneva Bible
In many words there cannot want iniquity: but he that refraineth his lips, is wise:

Yahweh Restoration Ministries Bible
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

(The YRM Bible is an excellent study Bible. Along with many insightful commentaries and significant archeological histories, it includes Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionaries)

Rose42

May I add one too. The Lexham English Bible

In many words, transgression is not lacking,
but he who restrains his lips is prudent.

The Lexham English Bible also has a lot of references though not all are free. Its also a good study Bible as is the MacArthur study Bible.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

I've had the MacArthur Study Bible NAS for twenty five years, have it in NKJV also.

I'm not familiar with the Lexham English Bible, but will research it. An additional insight from God's Word is always a temptation.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Whew...Close one...

And here I thought nobody was going to be able to refute the argument...

But if you can't use Scripture to refute Scripture it is probably wise to use Scripture to shoot the messenger...

Funny thing is - had I tossed that verse at y'all y'all would have claimed that I was using it wrong...

Good thing y'all have demonstrated your ability to correctly read and apply Scripture...

Otherwise one might think this is just more deflection....

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Thanks, Blade, I actually remember you discussing that Bible a few years back when you were about to, or just had purchased it...

So it has lived up to your expectations?

I looked it up online, and it is tempting.

I worshiped with Messianic Jews every Saturday during the early 90's at a Messianic Synagogue in Indianapolis.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

This conversation is Interesting... And a welcome change of pace...

I have three Bibles...The KJV... One a JW froend gave me as a gift last summer... And a Chinese version that as far as I can tell is based on the KJV...


Any recommendations?
I am returning home in six weeks and always stock up on books while there... Amazon can get expensive

Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

My sister has been a devout Christian since she was 17, she has completed hundreds of Bible study programs and has a dozen Bibles of different versions. My brother and I gave her a YRM study Bible for Christmas. She said it is the greatest present she has ever received.

I have several versions myself, including the 1599 Geneva Bible, but the YRM Study Bible is now my go-to Bible. I often use the others just to make comparisons and get broader perspectives.