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At what point are we "beings?"
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May 22, 2019 20:53:56   #
Morgan
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
Morgan:"I see you want to control the conversation by saying what you think then telling others what not to say,"

At what point in my comment does that come out?


In your opening comment

" At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being?

And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are."

How can you ask a question such as at "what point are we beings", while in the second breath you tell us NOT to say{ potential } If we are not beings... yet, what are we? The potentiality must be considered.

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May 22, 2019 21:22:08   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
JW wrote:
lindajoy: Faith can not be defined in spirituality..It simply is... Just as you have faith in your wife or child, if you have either, or simply faith in yourself..

Interesting debate and while there is no proof as you say about God, you nor anyone else has proof there isn’t a God..

Its choices made by the person in their personal beliefs.. We believe, you do not.. So be it...


… but, I really do/did not expect a response.


Beliefs are personal things as you say and, as long as they don't affect the unwilling, should be free to be held and be beyond the reproach of the unconcerned. Belief is a major problem for objectivity. Where belief governs, objectivity vanishes.

This thread, as I undeerstood it, was not about religion but about a quality of existence. I've tried to respond to that as best I can.
lindajoy: Faith can not be defined in spirituality... (show quote)


But that's ok. The topic of this thread has many arms/branches.

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May 22, 2019 21:25:08   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Morgan wrote:
In your opening comment

" At what point does a mass of neurons come together to make up a being?

And don't say potential to be a "being" is being a "being." Every cell in our bodies has the potential to be a "being."

It's not about potential, it's about when we actually are."

How can you ask a question such as at "what point are we beings", while in the second breath you tell us NOT to say{ potential } If we are not beings... yet, what are we? The potentiality must be considered.
In your opening comment br br " At what poin... (show quote)


Ok, point taken. How bout, I don't believe potential to be a being is the same as being a being; applied, of course to a zygote, the new cell which is the result of the union of sperm and egg. It's my opinion and I invite alternate views. We aren't arguing, ya know!

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May 22, 2019 23:17:27   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
Ok, point taken. How bout, I don't believe potential to be a being is the same as being a being; applied, of course to a zygote, the new cell which is the result of the union of sperm and egg. It's my opinion and I invite alternate views. We aren't arguing, ya know!


Indeed.... This is one of the more excellent threads...

And I find that eliminating the argument of "potential being" allows one to pursue other avenues of thought...

I am still trying to reason out what sort of test could be applied to determine when a biological organism could be positively defined as a "being"...(by my definition of "being")

Most excellent thread

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May 22, 2019 23:35:27   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philosophy, politics and religion to actually determine and agree on what point we become "beings", what then? What would be the benefits? What would we gain? Would we then have justification to destroy life before it becomes a "being"? Would we then have license to do whatever we please with anything bearing the potential to become a "being"? Would we then be able to put a dollar amount on human life? Would this open the door to further determinations on what constitutes a being? Where, in God's name, would this end?

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May 23, 2019 01:15:15   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
Ricktloml wrote:
Can we get an Amen!




Amen!!!

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May 23, 2019 01:46:50   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philosophy, politics and religion to actually determine and agree on what point we become "beings", what then? What would be the benefits? What would we gain? Would we then have justification to destroy life before it becomes a "being"? Would we then have license to do whatever we please with anything bearing the potential to become a "being"? Would we then be able to put a dollar amount on human life? Would this open the door to further determinations on what constitutes a being? Where, in God's name, would this end?
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philo... (show quote)


Take away: Nothing unanswerable is worth discussing?

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May 23, 2019 01:59:58   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Take away: Nothing unanswerable is worth discussing?
Seeking answers to questions we deem unanswerable is what drives human curiosity. It is fundamental to the search for truth. Scientists, philosophers, and theologians never accept the idea that there is a limit to human knowledge.

There was a time we thought sending men to the moon was science fiction.

“Life is filled with unanswered questions, but it is the courage to seek those answers that continues to give meaning to life. You can spend your life wallowing in despair, wondering why you were the one who was led towards the road strewn with pain, or you can be grateful that you are strong enough to survive it.”
J.D. Stroube, Caged by Damnation

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May 23, 2019 02:52:39   #
JW
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philosophy, politics and religion to actually determine and agree on what point we become "beings", what then? What would be the benefits? What would we gain? Would we then have justification to destroy life before it becomes a "being"? Would we then have license to do whatever we please with anything bearing the potential to become a "being"? Would we then be able to put a dollar amount on human life? Would this open the door to further determinations on what constitutes a being? Where, in God's name, would this end?
If, big IF, it is ever possible for science, philo... (show quote)


People kill cats, wolves, deer and a host of other creatures, (in my mind, some of them are beings), and they are far more advanced than a 20 week foetus. How is an insentient growth inside a woman more important than those others we eliminate from their lives?

Your entire argument rests on its human potential and an unprovable belief that it has a soul at the moment of conception. Why should any woman be required to act according to your belief system if she doesn't subsribe?

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May 23, 2019 04:05:08   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
JW wrote:
People kill cats, wolves, deer and a host of other creatures, (in my mind, some of them are beings), and they are far more advanced than a 20 week foetus. How is an insentient growth inside a woman more important than those others we eliminate from their lives?

Your entire argument rests on its human potential and an unprovable belief that it has a soul at the moment of conception. Why should any woman be required to act according to your belief system if she doesn't subsribe?
I posed some questions about future possibilities.

You are making some outlandish assumptions. How do you know a growth inside a woman is insentient? Can you prove that? How do you know that the existence of a soul is unprovable? Just because science has not yet provided empirical evidence one way or the other, who's to say one day it won't?

Besides, science is not the only path to knowledge. The statement that science is the only way to truth contradicts itself because that statement has no basis in science.

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May 23, 2019 07:40:28   #
Morgan
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
Ok, point taken. How bout, I don't believe potential to be a being is the same as being a being; applied, of course to a zygote, the new cell which is the result of the union of sperm and egg. It's my opinion and I invite alternate views. We aren't arguing, ya know!


Great, glad yo hear it, I love exchanging thoughts Let's maybe define potential... what is not presently but will be, if able to come to completion.

Defined as: having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

synonyms: possible, likely, prospective, future, probable, budding, in the making; More
latent, embryonic, developing, dormant, inherent, unrealized, undeveloped
"a potential source of conflict"

noun
noun: potential; plural noun: potentials

1.
latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.
"a young broadcaster with great potential"
synonyms: possibilities, potentiality, prospects; More
promise, capability, capacity, ability, power;
aptitude, talent, flair;
informalwhat it takes
"the economic potential of the area"
the possibility of something happening or of someone doing something in the future.
"pesticides with the potential to cause cancer"
2.
Physics
the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field.

We can go back to my example of a ball of clay, it has all of the elements of a vase, but it is not...yet, does that mean it IS a vase while it sits as a ball of clay, or...will it someday be. Now, as you say, when is that? Where is that line of demarcation?

There is also an ideology that physical life is everything, I don't hold that to be true.

As there is a spiritual afterlife, I believe there is also spiritual prior life in the beyond. What is above, there is below. Souls who choose this journey to the physical world, a learning experience to acquire a higher plateau of soul consciousness. As Jesus had a contract, we all come with contracts to fulfill, our free choices is a part of that and our outcome. Just my thoughts to share. I hope not to get too banged up for sharing this...

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May 23, 2019 07:45:41   #
Rose42
 
Morgan wrote:
Great, glad yo hear it, I love exchanging thoughts Let's maybe define potential... what is not presently but will be, if able to come to completion.

Defined as: having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

synonyms: possible, likely, prospective, future, probable, budding, in the making; More
latent, embryonic, developing, dormant, inherent, unrealized, undeveloped
"a potential source of conflict"

noun
noun: potential; plural noun: potentials

1.
latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.
"a young broadcaster with great potential"
synonyms: possibilities, potentiality, prospects; More
promise, capability, capacity, ability, power;
aptitude, talent, flair;
informalwhat it takes
"the economic potential of the area"
the possibility of something happening or of someone doing something in the future.
"pesticides with the potential to cause cancer"
2.
Physics
the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field.

We can go back to my example of a ball of clay, it has all of the elements of a vase, but it is not...yet, does that mean it IS a vase while it sits as a ball of clay, or...will it someday be. Now, as you say, when is that? Where is that line of demarcation?

There is also an ideology that physical life is everything, I don't hold that to be true.

As there is a spiritual afterlife, I believe there is also spiritual prior life in the beyond. What is above, there is below. Souls who choose this journey to the physical world, a learning experience to acquire a higher plateau of soul consciousness. As Jesus had a contract, we all come with contracts to fulfill, our free choices is a part of that and our outcome. Just my thoughts to share. I hope not to get too banged up for sharing this...
Great, glad yo hear it, I love exchanging thoughts... (show quote)


Do you believe we are here by choice? A friend of mine believes our soul existed before we were born but he’s never mentioned a choice.

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May 23, 2019 12:42:31   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Rose42 wrote:
Do you believe we are here by choice? A friend of mine believes our soul existed before we were born but he’s never mentioned a choice.


Your friend could be right! Who knows.

Reply
May 23, 2019 12:53:16   #
nwtk2007 Loc: Texas
 
Morgan wrote:
Great, glad yo hear it, I love exchanging thoughts Let's maybe define potential... what is not presently but will be, if able to come to completion.

Defined as: having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

synonyms: possible, likely, prospective, future, probable, budding, in the making; More
latent, embryonic, developing, dormant, inherent, unrealized, undeveloped
"a potential source of conflict"

noun
noun: potential; plural noun: potentials

1.
latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.
"a young broadcaster with great potential"
synonyms: possibilities, potentiality, prospects; More
promise, capability, capacity, ability, power;
aptitude, talent, flair;
informalwhat it takes
"the economic potential of the area"
the possibility of something happening or of someone doing something in the future.
"pesticides with the potential to cause cancer"
2.
Physics
the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field.

We can go back to my example of a ball of clay, it has all of the elements of a vase, but it is not...yet, does that mean it IS a vase while it sits as a ball of clay, or...will it someday be. Now, as you say, when is that? Where is that line of demarcation?

There is also an ideology that physical life is everything, I don't hold that to be true.

As there is a spiritual afterlife, I believe there is also spiritual prior life in the beyond. What is above, there is below. Souls who choose this journey to the physical world, a learning experience to acquire a higher plateau of soul consciousness. As Jesus had a contract, we all come with contracts to fulfill, our free choices is a part of that and our outcome. Just my thoughts to share. I hope not to get too banged up for sharing this...
Great, glad yo hear it, I love exchanging thoughts... (show quote)


When I was a kid I sort of thought of the earth as a filtering place for spirits/souls, as if on earth the true being would be revealed and God would then choose from amongst those for his other greater "duties." I still sort of hold that idea in the back of my mind. But, it makes me feel that I have failed myself when my short comings are revealed. So, I'm hoping for a re-do in another life and maybe that is possible too, sort of like the beliefs that with each life we draw nearer to the final destination of being what God intends us to be.

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May 23, 2019 13:02:58   #
Rose42
 
nwtk2007 wrote:
Your friend could be right! Who knows.


We will find out one day.

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