John King

I believe what you have said is true . . . accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior in that His death was the payment required for all mankind's sin . . . but, does that mean the sin of murder is forgiven by mankind?

Consider the following:
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1 NIV

This verse reveals that the laws of man are to be respected and, to me, reveal that our sins can be forgiven by God through Jesus . . . but may not be forgiven by man. Thus, the act of murder in America can hold the death penalty and a true born-again Christian can be put to death for that crime.

One more point of interest . . .
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matt. 5:17,18 NIV

acknowledgeurma

Following Romans 13:1,"...there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God", so if an authority has decided that honor killing is legal, is God ok with honor killing for those under that authority?

acknowledgeurma

I think the problem with the Phoenix murderer was that he didn't consult a good American Imam about the appropriate action under Sharia in the United States of America. If he had, I'm pretty sure his wife and daughters would still be alive.
https://ing.org/a-closer-look-at-sharia-in-the-united-states/
https://abuaminaelias.com/obeying-the-law-in-non-muslim-countries/

John King

Very good question! I've thought about the idea of killing and the Ten Commandments and what is really going on.

First, I going to clear up some misconceptions about the Commandment that states "Thou shalt not kill".
The word that has been translated "kill" in the King James Bible is not entirely correct. The more appropriate word that should be there is "murder". The Hebrews were killing in their animal sacrifices as well as killing entire tribes of people, so killing is not the intent of the Commandment . . . it is actually murder.

With that being said, I think what you're addressing is actually the different types of governments around the world. God has established Government as you pointed out in Romans . . . but what type of Government rest in the hands of man, not God! Would you say that the Government under Hitler was moral or godly?!? No, of course not! Some Governments, mostly in Asia and the Middle East, have a type of Government that is directly connected to their national religion . . . which is closing in on your specific question.

Now, considering we are talking about what the Bible says and not the Quran and other Islamic scriptures, the Christian perspective on Islam is that it is a religion with its own rules. They obviously condone these honor killings in some sects of Islam. But does God, the Hebrew God, the Christian God, condone honor killings?!? No!!! If a Muslim converted to Christianity, he would surely see the sin in it and stop doing it . . . but then he would be going against the traditions and perhaps sharia laws of the land.

Perhaps another train of thought might help. I've often wondered how God judges those who were born on some Pacific Island and never got to hear about Jesus or read the Bible. God holds them accountable for what truth they do have . . . God has written in the hearts of mankind that which is right and wrong (which got there when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil) so mankind is without excuse when it comes down to killing/murder. And, if you think about it, those Muslims that commit these honor killings surely must break their hearts to do it . . . and that, in itself should tell them the error of the act!

Muslims are stuck between a rock and a hard place because of where they live and the religious type of Government they have. What I see is a God ordained institution that has been corrupted by man . . . this is not to say God ordained their type of Government . . . God ordained the concept of Government . . . what mankind has done to it is what mankind always ends up doing, corrupting it. This is part of the reason America is one of, if not the greatest country in the world . . . . our Constitution was designed in such a way as to not allow our Government to ever condone any single religion thus creating a kind of separation of church and state! Almost every Muslim nation though has a Government that is directly influenced by their religion!

If you need Bible reference, just ask . . . I was just going off the top of my head on most of this so consider it my opinion and not the gospel according to anybody, OK!?!

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Hi John...
Hope you are well...
I know you are a Christian, but am not sure of your denomination...
I am going to guess Protestant...

I have asked a number of individuals on the OPP (and elsewhere) how individuals who have never heard of Christ (or a single word of scripture) would have a chance at heaven...

Your above statement seems to indicate that you have also spent some time pondering this dilemma...

Have you found a satisfactory answer?


(Also... I have truly enjoyed this thread.. Much excellent thought being put into your posts here )

John King

Thanks for the good thoughts Canuckus.

I began being a Christian in the late 70's. Wasn't raised anything but mom was a devote Catholic and dad didn't want us kids to be raised in any one religion. He gave us the chance to make the choice ourselves . . . and, in truth, it worked out well enough for me. As for claiming any denomination, I don't! When I read the Bible, I find only one name or title or denomination . . . and that's Christian. So I am simply a Christian . . . . or as I like to say "A blood bought, born again, Spirit filled, Bible believing Christian!"

I find that talking about what different denominations believe that separates them from others an interesting conversation. But most of these differences shouldn't really separate the body of Christ. Seventh Day Adventists hold the Sabbath to be on Saturday with good cause to me, but I'd say every day should be treated as the Lords day . . . if we are really His. just sayin'........

As to the point about those never hearing about Jesus or reading the Bible . . . I believe the first few chapters of Romans covers this clearly. God writes His laws on our hearts, on all mankind's hearts. Nature, if one takes the time to really contemplate it, declares the glory and demands the result of there must be a God. So, as Chapter 1 of Romans tells me, we are all without excuse for not believing there is a God.

But, this doesn't quite address the issue, does it!

I believe, and think there is scripture to back this up, we are held accountable for the truth we are given. Consider Abram . . . he wasn't a Hebrew because they came after him. But Abram must have had a relationship of some kind with the God of Abraham (Abram's changed name), Isaac, and Jacob! So God reveals Himself to us in His way in those lands that never learn about Jesus or the Bible. After all, I can't see God sending someone to hell for not believing in something they never heard about.

So, as always, these are just my thoughts and opinions . . . unless you want me to do a deep dive and get those Bible references for you......

Thanks again brother

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

Thanks John....

I was born into a rather agnostic/athiest household... But have since found my way to the Lord...
I have no denomination... But enjoy speaking and learning from all of my brothers...

I absolutely agree that each day is holy in the eyes of our Lord... I have always found it interesting how the different faiths celebrate different days as holy...

An excellent explanation to my query... And I much agree.... Another member pointed out on a different thread that God's laws are universal and found in all faiths...

I loved the example of Abram...
Dead right and an example that should be clear to all...
I find it beautiful and loving to imagine that the Lord has shown us all we need to see to know Him...

Your thoughts are much appreciated...
You're a much welcomed addition to the OPP..

Off to bed here...
But hope you have a blessed day...

Your friend, Kyle