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Our Broken Constitution
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Mar 23, 2019 15:33:48   #
rumitoid
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
Apparently your knowledge of history begins in 1787 or thereabouts and is confined to the fifty United States. There is nothing absurd about my premise. For most of history slavery was considered a normal way of doing things. The divine right of kings was considered moral. The Catholic Church burned inconvenient people at the stake and stole their wealth and it was considered moral. Muslims brought fire and sword to half the known world and it was considered moral by them, and moral to kill them by their opponents. Slaves were chattel through most of history. One hundred fifty years ago, public floggings and hangings were considered moral and proper.
One more time. Morals are individual and societal survival traits. In the harsher world of times past, harsher things were considered right and proper. Whether you like it or not, when you sit on top of the molehill of obstacles you face compared to the summit of the mountain of problems that people of times past had to contend with. It must be a hard thing to realize that your own myopic worldview of what is moral is not even always relevant to today, much less to hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Morals are malleable. Morality is determined by physical reality. What you consider moral today would be considered lunacy by people a thousand years ago.
Apparently your knowledge of history begins in 178... (show quote)


That slavery was accepted at any time in history, does not mean it was approved of by all or thought to be good. The indecency and cruelty of slavery stings the heart and conscience of any person capable of empathy. You may want to make morals as "individual and societal survival traits" but that is pure BS. That description of morality is covered by the phrase personal convenience.

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Mar 23, 2019 16:00:36   #
Smedley_buzkill
 
rumitoid wrote:
That slavery was accepted at any time in history, does not mean it was approved of by all or thought to be good. The indecency and cruelty of slavery stings the heart and conscience of any person capable of empathy. You may want to make morals as "individual and societal survival traits" but that is pure BS. That description of morality is covered by the phrase personal convenience.


Your description of morality is your own poorly though through opinion. Your thought patterns are in a rutted road without much traffic. You have your safe, secure little world in which you are always right and you will not venture out from it. Historical reality, to you, is an abstract concept rather than something that actually happened that helped impel the events of today. Physical events transpire because of prevalent thought patterns. Moral behavior is that which promotes, or is thought to promote the survival and well-being of the individual and group. When the morality of two groups collide, the moral precepts tend to follow the winners.

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Mar 23, 2019 16:27:49   #
rumitoid
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
Your description of morality is your own poorly though through opinion. Your thought patterns are in a rutted road without much traffic. You have your safe, secure little world in which you are always right and you will not venture out from it. Historical reality, to you, is an abstract concept rather than something that actually happened that helped impel the events of today. Physical events transpire because of prevalent thought patterns. Moral behavior is that which promotes, or is thought to promote the survival and well-being of the individual and group. When the morality of two groups collide, the moral precepts tend to follow the winners.
Your description of morality is your own poorly th... (show quote)


Your definition of morality is behavior that "promotes, or is thought to promote the survival and well-being of the individual and group." THE definition of morality is "principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior." Recreate the definitions of any words you like to make your snowman case to promote or defend, something you can argue with all your "alternative facts" to make a point. Impossible to have a conversation with a person where all facts and truth are decided on their whim for their own end.

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Mar 23, 2019 20:38:21   #
Smedley_buzkill
 
rumitoid wrote:
Your definition of morality is behavior that "promotes, or is thought to promote the survival and well-being of the individual and group." THE definition of morality is "principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior." Recreate the definitions of any words you like to make your snowman case to promote or defend, something you can argue with all your "alternative facts" to make a point. Impossible to have a conversation with a person where all facts and truth are decided on their whim for their own end.
Your definition of morality is behavior that "... (show quote)


"Impossible to have a conversation with a person where all facts and truth are decided on their whim for their own end."
You have just described yourself very nicely. By the way, Tomas de Torquemada and his boys were considered very holy and moral men. So since you say that moral behavior is unchanging, I could burn a heretic at the stake and it would be moral. You can't have it both ways. If it was moral then it's moral now. Oh, that's right, it has to be judged moral by the most high and holy rumitoid. Some lesser being like a president or Pope doesn't count.

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Mar 23, 2019 22:34:27   #
Strycker Loc: The middle of somewhere else.
 
rumitoid wrote:
This is the site: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/09/our-broken-constitution

Very interesting and intriguing and deep dive into the currents of Democracy. It is long, somewhat tedious, and erudite. Probably not to the taste of many here, who seem to prefer 10 second sound bites. Yet it will surprise and disappoint many more with its revelations about the pronounced failures inherent in what most see as a venerable and miraculous, perhaps God-inspired, document. Sacred. In reading this piece, I am of the opinion it is not anything like that. Every time it has been tried in other countries, it has failed miserably and led to oppressive governments. Its longest lifespan was about ten years but the average was five. How did it appear to work here for so long? It really didn't.

Here is an excerpt to excite or dull your taste buds: "In creating the national legislature, the delegates had to address the issue of slavery. Although slaves weren’t citizens and couldn’t vote, the Southern states wanted them to be included in the calculation of the over-all population, in order to boost the region’s representation in the House. The North thought that the slaves should not count at all.

"In a way, the negotiated solution reflected the shameful reality that slaves in the United States were judged less than fully human. The standoff led to a notorious compromise: for purposes of apportioning seats in the House, each slave would count as three-fifths of a person. As the University of Pennsylvania historian Richard Beeman noted, in 'Plain, Honest Men,' his 2009 account of the Convention, the debate over the three-fifths rule took place with 'a near-total absence of anything resembling a moral dimension.'”
This is the site: https://www.newyorker.com/magazi... (show quote)


The article states... "On the left and the right, they are asking whether the pervasive dysfunction in Washington is in spite of the Constitution or because of it."

What is seen as dysfunction in Washington is actually the constitution and government functioning as intended. The dysfunction in Washington exists because there is no clear consensus among the governed as to what is the proper course of action on any perceived issues might be. Without a clear consensus Washington should accomplish nothing. The real dysfunction in Washington is only caused by any attempts to rewrite or redefine the constitution in order to force a clear consensus where none exists.

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Mar 24, 2019 07:21:25   #
rebob14
 
rumitoid wrote:
This is the site: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/09/our-broken-constitution

Very interesting and intriguing and deep dive into the currents of Democracy. It is long, somewhat tedious, and erudite. Probably not to the taste of many here, who seem to prefer 10 second sound bites. Yet it will surprise and disappoint many more with its revelations about the pronounced failures inherent in what most see as a venerable and miraculous, perhaps God-inspired, document. Sacred. In reading this piece, I am of the opinion it is not anything like that. Every time it has been tried in other countries, it has failed miserably and led to oppressive governments. Its longest lifespan was about ten years but the average was five. How did it appear to work here for so long? It really didn't.

Here is an excerpt to excite or dull your taste buds: "In creating the national legislature, the delegates had to address the issue of slavery. Although slaves weren’t citizens and couldn’t vote, the Southern states wanted them to be included in the calculation of the over-all population, in order to boost the region’s representation in the House. The North thought that the slaves should not count at all.

"In a way, the negotiated solution reflected the shameful reality that slaves in the United States were judged less than fully human. The standoff led to a notorious compromise: for purposes of apportioning seats in the House, each slave would count as three-fifths of a person. As the University of Pennsylvania historian Richard Beeman noted, in 'Plain, Honest Men,' his 2009 account of the Convention, the debate over the three-fifths rule took place with 'a near-total absence of anything resembling a moral dimension.'”
This is the site: https://www.newyorker.com/magazi... (show quote)


The Constitution isn’t broken, we are............though not as badly as we were 250 years ago. The Constitution’s purpose has always been to provide the vision of a better society, peopled by better citizens. Had the Declaration and Constitution not been written the way they were, there would not have been a legal foundation for abolition. Slavery was always an abomination and was the currency of global trade for centuries. It took the combination of Western Christianity and representative government to finally abolish it.

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Mar 24, 2019 11:16:03   #
Smedley_buzkill
 
rebob14 wrote:
The Constitution isn’t broken, we are............though not as badly as we were 250 years ago. The Constitution’s purpose has always been to provide the vision of a better society, peopled by better citizens. Had the Declaration and Constitution not been written the way they were, there would not have been a legal foundation for abolition. Slavery was always an abomination and was the currency of global trade for centuries. It took the combination of Western Christianity and representative government to finally abolish it.
The Constitution isn’t broken, we are............t... (show quote)


It's not abolished, just illegal. Amnesty International estimates there are about 20 million people worldwide today being held in some sort of involuntary servitude, and that's not even the largest estimate.

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Mar 24, 2019 12:24:36   #
Larry the Legend Loc: Not hiding in Milton
 
Iliamna1 wrote:
Our constitutional republic beats nearly every other government in the world, which is why so many people are still voting with their feet to get here.

Yeah, we're not exactly building walls to keep people in, are we?

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Mar 24, 2019 15:04:22   #
GmanTerry
 
Smedley_buzkill wrote:
This differs from the way slaves had been perceived for thousands of years HOW?
Like most Liberals, you judge the morals of the people of a bygone era by modern Liberal standards. Morality is malleable, and is dictated by exigent circumstances.
Slavery was considered a normal practice for most of the history of humanity, yet Liberals seem to think that it began and ended in 18th and 19th century North America.
Liberals constantly gripe about the evils of slavery in this country while absolutely ignoring the FACT that the practice continued legally in Africa until the 21st Century, and still is practiced world wide.
Amnesty International estimates there are currently about 20 million people held in some sort of involuntary servitude in the world, yet rather than address this very real problem, Liberals blame white Europeans for all of the attendant evils, even though it is mostly practiced today in Africa and the Middle East. It doesn't count there because evil white Americans are not responsible for it, apparently.
Liberals, with their parochial, myopic and self-serving, self-righteous talking points, ignore any wrongdoing that is not wrought by white Americans.
This differs from the way slaves had been perceive... (show quote)




Semper Fi

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Mar 24, 2019 15:47:40   #
padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al
 
rumitoid wrote:
Way too funny. You perpetually avert talking about the topic. Do you do that in front of a mirror? Address the topic and not your image.


Actually he was right on target. That it didn't hit your predisposed and slanted bullseye is very acceptable. Too frequently lately you claim anyone to be completely out of step if they don't agree with you or give the answer you're looking for Rumi. In plainspeak, that means that only those who agree with you are well informed. I'm sure you will agree that being 2/3 of a person is better than not being considered human at all like 60 million aborted children.....human children.

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Mar 24, 2019 22:59:06   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
rumitoid wrote:
Way too funny. You perpetually avert talking about the topic. Do you do that in front of a mirror? Address the topic and not your image.


Sorry, rumitoid, but it looks to me like Smedley buzkill shot you down in flames. Every word he said is true. Not that your report is not true, but the people of that time viewed slaves as less than human. Actually, the north was even MORE racist than the south as they wanted the slaves not counted as human at all. Keep in mind, there are only 19 years difference between Britain and the US abolishing slavery. That's a pretty close run for a country whose southern half depended heavily on slave labor.
But, as Smedly said, we ain't the only ones that did it, and many countries are still doing it. If we're to punish people for historical past injustices, then why don't we punish the Palestinien's when in Old Testament time they overlorded the Jews. That one just came to mind because that's why Samson did what he did.
Usually, at the end of the wars, whoever lost and wasn't killed were taken as slaves. This has been the case throughout history. There are hardly ANY races that didn't own slaves or were owned as slaves. You DO realize that in early America that there were wealthy black slave owners, don't you? In 1830, of 2,458,453 blacks in America, 13% or 319,599 were free and most owned slaves. That slavery by Africans had been practiced for thousands of years. That the first slaves were bought from African slave owners.That the Cherokee held about 1,500 slaves at the turn of the nineteenth century. That the first legal slave owner in American history was a black tobacco farmer named Anthony Johnson. If you're going to spank somebody for slavery, you 're got a lot of spanking to do.

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Mar 26, 2019 21:41:30   #
rumitoid
 
padremike wrote:
Actually he was right on target. That it didn't hit your predisposed and slanted bullseye is very acceptable. Too frequently lately you claim anyone to be completely out of step if they don't agree with you or give the answer you're looking for Rumi. In plainspeak, that means that only those who agree with you are well informed. I'm sure you will agree that being 2/3 of a person is better than not being considered human at all like 60 million aborted children.....human children.


3/5 of a person, not 2/3. And 2/3 is far, far better than the South would allow. Just more well-informed, sorry.

How did they get to 3/5 during the 1787 United States Constitutional Convention? This population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years. The compromise solution was to count three out of every five slaves as a person for this purpose. Its effect was to give the southern states a third more seats in Congress and a third more electoral votes than if slaves had been ignored, but fewer than if slaves and free people had been counted equally. No matter what our Declaration of Independence lied about being "created equal."

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Mar 26, 2019 22:01:48   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
rumitoid wrote:
3/5 of a person, not 2/3. And 2/3 is far, far better than the South would allow. Just more well-informed, sorry.

How did they get to 3/5 during the 1787 United States Constitutional Convention? This population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years. The compromise solution was to count three out of every five slaves as a person for this purpose. Its effect was to give the southern states a third more seats in Congress and a third more electoral votes than if slaves had been ignored, but fewer than if slaves and free people had been counted equally. No matter what our Declaration of Independence lied about being "created equal."
3/5 of a person, not 2/3. And 2/3 is far, far bett... (show quote)



The North didn't want slaves counted at all, for the same reasons, which meant not human, I.e. a human HAD to be counted. Don't forget that the North also had slaves and Lincoln did not want to free the northern slaves.
Check this out; at the start of the War Between the States, not one Republican owned a slave. NOTONE! That means that in 1860, every slave owner in the United States was a Democrat!
If you don't believe it, try to disprove it.

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Mar 26, 2019 22:52:58   #
padremike Loc: Phenix City, Al
 
rumitoid wrote:
3/5 of a person, not 2/3. And 2/3 is far, far better than the South would allow. Just more well-informed, sorry.

How did they get to 3/5 during the 1787 United States Constitutional Convention? This population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years. The compromise solution was to count three out of every five slaves as a person for this purpose. Its effect was to give the southern states a third more seats in Congress and a third more electoral votes than if slaves had been ignored, but fewer than if slaves and free people had been counted equally. No matter what our Declaration of Independence lied about being "created equal."
3/5 of a person, not 2/3. And 2/3 is far, far bett... (show quote)


Ok, I made a egregious math error. The nation made an egregious error on slavery. Today, neither error mean a darn thing; there are no slaves, everyone has equal opportunity except those given advantage over others because of slavery or sex or sexual orientation, etc. I wonder if those preferences will last as long as slavery did? Perhaps if we set a specific date sometime in the future where individual effort and personal responsibility would determine success.....nah, too radical.

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Mar 26, 2019 23:19:25   #
rumitoid
 
padremike wrote:
Ok, I made a egregious math error. The nation made an egregious error on slavery. Today, neither error mean a darn thing; there are no slaves, everyone has equal opportunity except those given advantage over others because of slavery or sex or sexual orientation, etc. I wonder if those preferences will last as long as slavery did? Perhaps if we set a specific date sometime in the future where individual effort and personal responsibility would determine success.....nah, too radical.


And do you think that White Privilege is a myth?

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