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what can be said of the trump economy?
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Oct 16, 2018 17:17:32   #
Seth
 
4430 wrote:
Problems with all these renewable energy sources are done without a cost to benefit study example Wind Mills only way they were pushed thru was tax break incentives without these tax breaks they could now have become a reality because they were not cost effective period !


The bottom line is that when government keeps its politics out of the marketplace and allows the marketplace to do what it does, the economy does well. As soon as government decides to "help" by what amounts to artificial means, the walls come tumbling down. We see this every single time the Democrats decide to be "helpful."

Unfortunately, the Democrats tend to defend failed policies rather than acknowledge they didn't work, and repeat them over and over, and completely ignore the disasters this repeatedly brings to millions of families and individuals of whom they neither know nor care.

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Oct 16, 2018 17:25:06   #
old marine Loc: America home of the brave
 
JoyV wrote:
You assertion is ludicrous. You seem to think steel only needs heat to be made. You first need the raw materials. This consists of iron and carbon. Coal is nearly all carbon. Anthracite coal is common in the Appalachian mountains. It contains from 92% to 98% carbon. Anthracite coal is high quality for steel production. While steel can be made from other carbon sources, the lower the carbon quantity the more material and energy needed to make it, and poorer the quality of steel. A steel mill could not produce a fraction of the steel from non coal sources of carbon. Nor would the quality from any coal other than anthracite make the high quality steel our country depended on in the past for bridges and ship building. Many bridges built in the 50s from American steel are still in use today.
You assertion is ludicrous. You seem to think ste... (show quote)


There are American steel bridges built in the early 1900s that are still safe due to proper maintance.

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Oct 16, 2018 17:28:41   #
old marine Loc: America home of the brave
 
JoyV wrote:
The reason coal is down has more to do with politics and government policies than anything else. Obama's regulations shut down many coal fired power plants who could not make the changeover to alternative energy sources. In my state, electric customers are still paying for the massive changes which had to be done to meet Obama's requirements.


Obama's stupid rules were intented to destroy not build up American industry.

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Oct 16, 2018 17:31:01   #
old marine Loc: America home of the brave
 
archie bunker wrote:
Nobody cares about your air.....Bob.


Air can be clean but can still stink.

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Oct 16, 2018 17:35:49   #
old marine Loc: America home of the brave
 
Bad Bob wrote:
Do they smell like Bull shit?


Nothing can smell as bad as yours.

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Oct 16, 2018 17:40:11   #
4430 Loc: Little Egypt ** Southern Illinory
 
Seth wrote:
The bottom line is that when government keeps its politics out of the marketplace and allows the marketplace to do what it does, the economy does well. As soon as government decides to "help" by what amounts to artificial means, the walls come tumbling down. We see this every single time the Democrats decide to be "helpful."

Unfortunately, the Democrats tend to defend failed policies rather than acknowledge they didn't work, and repeat them over and over, and completely ignore the disasters this repeatedly brings to millions of families and individuals of whom they neither know nor care.
The bottom line is that when government keeps its ... (show quote)


You ought to be a baseball player Seth as you've knocked this out of the ballpark Well Done

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Oct 16, 2018 17:59:42   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
JoyV wrote:
The plan was to retrain coal miners for solar power industry jobs. Large solar power stations which hire large numbers of workers are mostly located in hot, dry, wide open places. West Virginia is mostly relegated to individuals placing solar panels on their roofs. Not to mention the pay is far less. Entry level coal mining pay averages $25.00/hour. Entry level solar power station employee averages $12.00/hour. That is less than half.

Can you see this being built in West Virginia?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Minnesota


Solar power in Minnesota is expanding significantly as a result of favorable policies and as the cost of photovoltaics continues to decrease. Minnesota was the 12th largest state solar market in 2016, and the only Midwestern state in the top 20 by either market size or installed capacity.[1][2][3]

In 1983 Minnesota adopted a net metering rule which allows customers generating up to 40 kW to use net metering, with the kilowatt hour surplus rolled over each month, or optionally credited at the retail rate.[4]

In May 2013, the Minnesota legislature adopted a mandate on investor-owned utilities in the state that requires them to produce 1.5% of their electricity from solar power by 2020 with the bill also raising the state's cap on net metering from 40 kW to 1 MW. This mandate is in addition to the state's renewable portfolio standard of 25% by 2025 and it is estimated that affected utilities will have to add 450 MW of solar by 2020 to comply with the 1.5% requirement.[5]

While Minnesota is currently developing several utility level projects, currently, Minnesota's largest solar array is the North Star Solar Project in North Branch, Minnesota. With more than 440,000 solar panels, its output is more than 100MW.[6] Other large arrays include the 62MW Marshall Solar Energy Project, completed in January 2017, a 2MW solar array in Slayton followed by a 1 MW array at an IKEA in Bloomington.[7] There is also a 600 kW array on the roof of the Minneapolis Convention Center,.[8] In January 2015, Ecolab announced it would be going 100% solar powered by purchasing power from community solar gardens to be built by SunEdison.[9] Ecolab's share of the power would be 16MW, more than the amount of solar power in the state at the time of the announcement. If completely subscribed the solar gardens could provide up to 200MW. The Aurora Solar Project is a similar distributed network of arrays planned to reach 100MW utilizing midsized 2MW-10MW installations throughout the southern half of the state.[10][11] The 62MW Marshall Solar Energy Project is proposed to be built on 500 acres near Marshall, Minnesota.[12] Already home to the state's largest array, Chisago County, Minnesota has seven additional arrays in various stages of completion, earning it the nickname the solar capitol of Minnesota.[13] When finished they will generate roughly 29 MW.[14] [15]

Minnesota has the potential to generate 38.5% of its electricity from rooftop solar, from 23,100 MW of solar panels. St. Paul can generate 27% of its electricity, using 800 MW, and Minneapolis 26% from 1,000 MW.[16]

A 2016 estimate suggests that a typical 5 kW system will pay for itself in about 10 years. With incentives, a $20,000 system can be installed for a net profit after the first year of $5,331, and will generate a profit of $11,833 over its 25-year life, using a loan. Purchasing it outright returns a 9.2% return on investment, saving $20,301 over 25 years, and increases the home value by $15,210.[17]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Took a look at pay in Minnesota.. all over the place.. from engineer to design..

Wanted to see entry level installer but the ones I found did not list a wage or called it construction labor..

So at the moment, do not know what a person could expect for walk on pay..

Reply
 
 
Oct 16, 2018 18:05:47   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
JoyV wrote:
You assertion is ludicrous. You seem to think steel only needs heat to be made. You first need the raw materials. This consists of iron and carbon. Coal is nearly all carbon. Anthracite coal is common in the Appalachian mountains. It contains from 92% to 98% carbon. Anthracite coal is high quality for steel production. While steel can be made from other carbon sources, the lower the carbon quantity the more material and energy needed to make it, and poorer the quality of steel. A steel mill could not produce a fraction of the steel from non coal sources of carbon. Nor would the quality from any coal other than anthracite make the high quality steel our country depended on in the past for bridges and ship building. Many bridges built in the 50s from American steel are still in use today.
You assertion is ludicrous. You seem to think ste... (show quote)



If that was what you got, i did a poor job on my post..

all the research I mentioned past and present.. you can get the carbon in other ways than using coal, but it is more costly..

that is the crux of what they a trying.. finding a carbon source other then coal and at least as cheap as coal..

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Oct 16, 2018 18:08:10   #
permafrost Loc: Minnesota
 
JoyV wrote:
The reason coal is down has more to do with politics and government policies than anything else. Obama's regulations shut down many coal fired power plants who could not make the changeover to alternative energy sources. In my state, electric customers are still paying for the massive changes which had to be done to meet Obama's requirements.



Much of President Obama clean energy act never got applied. court cases where still active when the election ended.

Cheap natural gas has had the greatest effect to date..

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Oct 16, 2018 18:25:17   #
zillaorange
 
permafrost wrote:
Tons of jobs, stock market out of its mind making money, wages up near 2%, how could I have any issue with the currect economy..

Well it all feels wrong.. nothing changed in my neck of the woods.. Same as we were in 2010.. why do I lay awake and worry about my grand kids and others making a living?

Looking for workers, need people. trained people.. money invested in updating many of the small business which make up the arrowhead of Minnesota..

Iron mining back to booming. but much opposition to nearly approved copper/nickel mining done by foreign companies..

so lets ask some experts, who have studied this boring stuff for a life time..

John Brazier is one of those who find economics so interesting he makes a living teaching it..

part of an article by him which he did not link, so all I have is the part I post..

>>>>>

I’m just going to focus on one area: the economy. Remember, despite Republican defiance and intransigence, Obama hauled the US economy out of a massive recession and did it more quickly than any other country in the world (even though one might question some of his actions).

Trump, in the space of around 6 months - because he knows nothing about economics - has done the following:

Given a huge tax break to the wealthy and the corporations. This is meant to revitalize the economy. Unfortunately, the corporates don’t use it for investment but for share buy-backs, which artificially raises their stock value and thus raises the execs’ bonuses. The wealthy simply invest in the stock market, which further artificially raises the whole stock market value. The small amount that does make it to real business investment will actually do little because (a) the USA is near full employment: you can’t find people to fill the jobs, which causes wage inflation - the economy is overheating, and (b) we’re late in the business cycle: a slowdown is coming.
With the tax break, he has also declared a trade war with the whole of the world. These together significantly limits the government’s income, leading to more borrowing. In addition, Trump now has to borrow more so that he can subsidize soya farmers (for example) to keep them on-side during the war. The trade war will also directly hit US businesses, reducing their sales and profits, so slowing the economy down.
Trump is trying to stop the Fed from raising interest rates - which they must to (a) contain inflation, and (b) have enough ammunition in the interest rate to cut rates when the coming global recession will hit (and it is coming).
All these things are unfunded. The tax bill alone will increase the national debt by 1 to 2 trillion in the next few years; it is impossible to predict the borrowings needed for the trade war.
So Trump has created a huge bubble, riding on a perfect storm of unneeded stimulus, whilst simultaneously doing everything he can to shut down income flows - to both business and the government. And he’s trying to undermine the one institution that has the responsibility for trying to navigate the mess.

The result will be, come the next recession, an enormous crash which has the potential to make 2008 look like the warm-up act. For some time afterwards the economy will be a basket case and, which is unusual, one single culprit can and will be pointed out: Trump (with backup from the Republican party, who have appeared to have gone insane and abandoned everything they stood for, especially fiscal probity). He will go down in history as a terrible warning as to how the USA can screw up big-time if it really puts its mind to it.

So watch for the next few years: it could happen tomorrow, it could be years away. But it’s coming.

Just a final little stat to underline the great Trump competence. Remember his great stump promise about saving the coal miners? Well, the coal industry is cutting capacity and closing mines faster now than when Trump came into office: precisely as predicted by those who remain sane. Trump is now trying to stop it by Exec Order: sadly, economics will win.
Tons of jobs, stock market out of its mind making ... (show quote)


I've brought it up to you a number of times perma, when you're 20 trillion in the hole, YOU HAVE NO ECONOMY !

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Oct 16, 2018 18:30:11   #
Bad Bob Loc: Virginia
 
zillaorange wrote:
I've brought it up to you a number of times perma, when you're 20 trillion in the hole, YOU HAVE NO ECONOMY !


We have no President, we have a conman clown.



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Oct 16, 2018 18:46:22   #
son of witless
 
permafrost wrote:
Nuclear power is a hard sell after the Japan, 3 mile island, and the Russian melt down..

coal will never go away.. no question.. making steel alone will keep it around for some time..

But even with the objection of the orange world and the fossil fuel business, the alternatives are growing.

I time, renewable will be the major provider world over..

with China and India making huge investments in renewable change may well be more rapid then expected.


This is so long i will not post more then a bit.. follow the link if you wish more info.

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2016/08/renewable-energy-was-16-9-percent-of-u-s-electric-generation-in-the-first-half-of-2016.html

Coal-fired power is down 20 percent thus far this year after dropping 14 percent between 2014 and 2015. Natural gas is only up by about 7.6 percent. So wind and solar power (increasing 23 percent and 31 percent, respectively) are making up for a lot of that lost generation from coal.

Nuclear power is up by about 1 percent and will rise more due to the new nuclear reactor fired up this summer in Tennessee. However, the longer term trend for nuclear power looks bleak with facilities in Illinois, Massachusetts, Nebraska, and New Jersey to close this decade. Only two new nuclear plants are under construction in the U.S. with commercial operation expected in 2019 and 2020 if no further delays occur.

For renewable energy, growth is occurring in virtually all 50 states, as new wind and solar installations are placed into service. Every region is enjoying this growth. Requests for interconnection to utilities throughout the country are now primarily for wind and solar projects.

This is not to say that geothermal energy and biomass do not play a part in this growth. Both have experienced growth in the past several years, but they are not growing like wind and solar energy and may stay relatively flat through the rest of the decade.

For wind power, the states with the most growth so far this year (in terms of actual generation) are Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa, and Colorado. Just those five states alone have added enough generation in the first six months of the year to power an additional three million homes.

For solar power, the states with the most growth (in terms of actual generation) are California, North Carolina, Nevada, Arizona, and Georgia. Just those five states alone have added enough generation in the first six months of the year to power nearly an additional one million homes. It should be noted that Utah (ranked 6th on that list) has increased solar power generation over 700 percent so far this year.

In Iowa, wind power is rivaling coal as the top source of electric generation. By 2017, Iowa may become the first U.S. state in history to generate a majority of its power from wind.
Nuclear power is a hard sell after the Japan, 3 mi... (show quote)


" I time, renewable will be the major provider world over.."

I notice you give no ETA for this. An open ended timeline is a worthless theory.

" with China and India making huge investments in renewable change may well be more rapid then expected. "

Your problem is that you are so sold on global freaking warming and renewables that you do not bother to research the details of what is going on in the big bad world. I do not have that problem. I make it my business to go beyond the headlines. Yea China is building a lot of wind turbines BUT, you must ask are those wind machines generating usable power? Well are they ? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/15/world/asia/china-gansu-wind-farm.html

Again, stop listening to headlines and find out what is really happening.

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Oct 16, 2018 18:53:31   #
zillaorange
 
son of witless wrote:
" I time, renewable will be the major provider world over.."

I notice you give no ETA for this. An open ended timeline is a worthless theory.

" with China and India making huge investments in renewable change may well be more rapid then expected. "

Your problem is that you are so sold on global freaking warming and renewables that you do not bother to research the details of what is going on in the big bad world. I do not have that problem. I make it my business to go beyond the headlines. Yea China is building a lot of wind turbines BUT, you must ask are those wind machines generating usable power? Well are they ? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/15/world/asia/china-gansu-wind-farm.html

Again, stop listening to headlines and find out what is really happening.
" I time, renewable will be the major provide... (show quote)


There are enormous Earth changes happening ! After the 2011 quake in Japan, the tilt of the Earth's axis moved by 6.5 in. The axis wobble changed. Even the shape of the planet has changed. Once it was somewat flattened at the poles causing a bulge at the Equator. There have been other events ,like in Chile. I don't think we're getting the whole story !

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Oct 16, 2018 18:56:24   #
Bad Bob Loc: Virginia
 
zillaorange wrote:
There are enormous Earth changes happening ! After the 2011 quake in Japan, the tilt of the Earth's axis moved by 6.5 in. The axis wobble changed. Even the shape of the planet has changed. Once it was somewat flattened at the poles causing a bulge at the Equator. There have been other events ,like in Chile. I don't think we're getting the whole story !


The end is near!

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Oct 16, 2018 19:16:15   #
son of witless
 
Bad Bob wrote:
The end is near!


Of course it is. For Billions of years the Earth has been one day a way from total destruction. Predict the end of the World and one day you will be right. I am thinking that at least for today we are good. The day after tomorrow I am not so sure of.

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