Perhaps it is just me (probably); however, it seems you have us running through a Forrest, around bushes, etc. to reach a point. The pyshcology today reference is a standalone forum unto itself. The initial three or four points are a standalone forum unto themselves. You have us racing through Biblical references, which, again, could be a standalone forum.

It is a worthwhile endeavor to have us studying each of the references; however, by the time one finishes reading everything, exhaustion has set in and posting commentary is too much.

I would ask you not take this as an assailment. Just my meager thoughts.

It was just some thoughts that occurred to me, inspired by the thoughts you posted with your topic.

Instead of just saying no, I don't think altruism is possible, I wrote what I considered a more thought provoking way to put it. If the thoughts strike a chord with you, fine, if they don't, just take the literal response that I don't think altruism is possible.

Here is my response to the scriptures you listed.

John 14:20
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. -- Who is you? You is a chosen child of God who has trusted Christ for salvation. I am not sure how you intend this to relate to selflessness or altruism. A child of God would want a close relationship with God, and God says He wants that for His children.

John 15:4-7
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask wh**ever you wish, and it will be done for you. -- Same response as above. This is not about selflessness, it is about appealing to a person's love of self. If you want to maintain your life, and the good God can do for you, you will abide in Him.

John 17:26
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” -- Here Jesus is thanking God that a few in the world that God sent to Him are capable of knowing Him and Him knowing them. In the previous verse Jesus acknowledges that the majority of the world does not know Him, but these few chosen by God can know Him.

Romans 8:9-10
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. -- This the same message as John 3:3-8, that we must be born of the Spirit to have a relationship with God. Anyone not born again, of the Spirit, does not belong to Him and will not come to Christ willingly. If the Spirit of God does not dwell in you, you are in the flesh and will die in sin with the body.

1 Corinthians 6:17
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. --Without context, this verse can't be understood. The context is of not using your body for sinful purposes. The meaning is similar to Jesus' statement that we will know them by their fruits. We can know that one is one spirit with the Lord if he avoids sin. If we are one spirit with the Lord, we will not sin, because the Lord is Holy, and no part of His body would be allowed to remain in sin.

2 Corinthians 1:21
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. -- This is saying that God chose and annointed the Christians, and gave them spiritual life. Christians exist because God chose them, not because they choose God.

2 Corinthians 5:17, 21
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. -- Again this is a way of distinguishing Christians by their fruits. A true Christian will exhibit a new nature, and be a new creature. That can only occur by God intervening and acting in that person's life. Other humans can't know of the inward actions of the Spirit in someone's life, but we can only see the outward signs that something has changed. God is the actor, and we receive the benefit, if He chooses us. In verse 21, who are we who Christ was made to be sin on our behalf? Chapter 1 tells us that Paul was writing to the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints. So Christ was made to be sin on behalf of the Church of God and the saints.

Ephesians 4:13
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. -- This is talking about attaining maturity in the Christian faith. Again, this verse cannot stand alone, but must be read in context. He is talking about different Christians using their different gifts to help everyone grow and mature, and ultimately achieve the fullness of the body of Christ that God planned.

Colossians 1:27
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. -- This is the end of a very long sentence. The entire sentence says that Paul and other saints were told mysteries of the gospel and entrusted by God to make those mysteries known to the Gentiles and the whole world. Paul says he follows God's command to teach in spite of the suffering he endures in the process.

Colossians 3:3
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. -- This is speaking to the chosen who have been raised up with Christ. They have died, and are alive now only because of the mercy of God. The next verse says Christ is our life, so we will be revealed with Him in glory only because of Him choosing us and giving us the new spiritual life.

1 John 2:24
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. -- This is another teaching of how to know whether or not one is truly saved. Many claim to be saved and want to be saved, but only the ones who abide in the Son and the Father are truly saved.

1 John 4:16
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. -- This is another teaching of how to know whether or not one is truly saved. Many claim to be saved and want to be saved, but only the ones who abide in God are truly saved. This is not a formula for achieving salvation, it is merely evidence of what God has already done in one's life. You don't save yourself by abiding in God, you evaluate your life to gain assurance of your salvation if there is evidence that you are abiding in God. You also evaluate others to assure yourself of their salvation, or lack thereof.

Selflessness can best be defined as the perfect mindfulness of love granted by grace and the power of the Holy Spirit in a total surrender to the spirit of God within.
Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed response. I do not see in any real disagreement. You are emphasising one aspect of theses verses and me another. My point is about selflessness, yours about being saved in Christ. Below are my responses in this regard:


John 14:20: In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
“I am not sure how you intend this to relate to selflessness or altruism.”
As with all of the rest of the scripture I provided, we can be selfless because we have surrendered ourselves to allow God to act for his purposes and not ours. As Christ is in us and we in him and both in the father, it is the divine nature, not our own, that we allow to manifest in the world through us. We become no more than an open door for his love and mercy and forgiveness. The love of our enemy, where we are as perfect as the father in heaven is perfect, can only be possible if we are selfless, fully surrendered to his will. No self-interest; no thought of any particular result or reward; no need to defend or promote ourselves; no thought of safety or comfort: total trust in the lord.

As this initial response speaks for all the other verses, I will only address any other of your comments to better clarify how I understand these verses.

John 15:4-7: “If you want to maintain your life, and the good God can do for you, you will abide in Him.”
For me, Christ did not come to earth for “the good God could do for him.” As we are to be as Christ was in the world, we “abide in Him” to bring the kingdom of God to others. This is love, and God is love. Jesus said, “Take no thought for your life, what you may eat or drink.”

John 17:26: For me, the pertinent phrase, supporting selflessness, is “...so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
This goes back to what I put forth in the beginning.

Romans 8:9-10 “If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.”
Whose spirit? Yours? Mine? Or God's? Is it the self that is righteous? What of self is righteous? The seed of God in us, which cannot sin. Would not the self working for righteous just dilute, even taint, this spirit?

1 Corinthians 6:17: “But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.”
For me, if we are of “one spirit with Him,” at-one, are we totally compliant to his will or that of our mortal self? Does the self have a say in God's will for His purposes? That God utilises the unique character he made for each individual is not the same as the self acting for its own interests. We have to get the self out of the way, by grace be selfless, to act as a perfect conduit of his love.

2 Corinthians 1:21: “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”
The pertinent piece is that we are “in Christ” and it is his spirit in our hearts, not our heart, that is meant to act in the world.

Ephesians 4:13: “Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”
Jay-are: “He is talking about different Christians using their different gifts to help everyone grow and mature, and ultimately achieve the fullness of the body of Christ that God planned.”
For me, it is not about “different Christians using their different gifts to help everyone grow and mature” but allowing God to use these different gifts when and as he sees fits for his ends, not ours. It is not our work on us but God's work in us, as I see it, that we mature. I may see a certain situation to demand certain actions I see as a Christian's duty or what is morally correct, yet that is hubris: only God knows. Wait on the lord.

Colossians 1:27: “To whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
Again, the crucial piece is “Christ in you.” Paul spoke about there is to be “no boast.” How is that possible?

Colossians 3:3: “For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God...Christ is our life” This speaks perfectly to selflessness and is my favorite. If Christ is our life, where is the self? Hidden. If the self has died, who is acting? Christ through us by our total surrender.

The last two verses follow everything I have said thus far. However, for me as I see it, I take issue with this statement of yours: “You also evaluate others to assure yourself of their salvation, or lack thereof.” Only God knows the heart of any soul. That is not up to us to judge. For me, your statement is part of law-keeping and not to be practiced.

This quote from Romans 8 reinforces what I said that we cannot and will not exhibit selflessness unless God first acts to bring us into spiritual existence. The key verses are 7 and 8 where it says the natural man is not even able to follow the law of God or to please God.

Romans 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Good responses. My response to your responses is that only an act of God to cause us to be born spiritually (born again) can impute to a person the ability to exhibit the selflessness you honor so highly.

A natural man, unregenerated, not born again cannot and will not ever exhibit that quality.

Romans 3:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,


“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

The difference between those who exhibit the selflessness you want them to and those who don't is God's mercy. They can't just choose to be selfless, unless God first acts to make them spiritually alive.

Romans 9:
“The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I h**ed.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

I wonder if you know that these scriptures you are quoting were written by Paul regarding the Jews? Namely the Jewish Priests of the Temple, the Saducees, and the Herodians- the spies.
When Jesus Christ was on the Cross, he cried to the Lord God and said:
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Luke 23:34
The Gentiles at this point were the Romans. They knew very little about the Laws of God given to the Hebrews/Jews. Jesus was speaking about the Gentile-Romans, who it says were also casting lots for Jesus Clothing.

The Romans, of the Celtic line, were doing as Pilate had ordered by crucifying Jesus, not knowing about the Old Testament and such. The Gentiles had not fully come into the scene yet regarding Salvation, so Jesus asked for their Pardon from God, out of their own ignorance.
"6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." Zechariah 13:6.

The Gentile Nation as a whole, thru the Romans had committed a grizzly sin by crucifying Jesus Christ. However, Jesus asked for their Pardon from God, as I said, due to ignorance.
Instead of saying figurehead, scripture in Revelation simply says "Head."
"3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Revelation 13:3,12,14. This is us, the Gentile nations. The next grizzly beast (dictator) that came out from the Gentile nations was Hitler.

Rumi, it seems that you are trying to push this "selflessness" into a type of Perfect Spirituality performing outward in the human-being. Can't be done. This is not the meaning of your word. Selflessness is simply being selfless, unselfish. These are random acts within a persons day. Say you are sitting on a bus, very comfortable, yet see a woman standing. Being selfless, you give up your comfort to her so she can sit and you stand. That is a perfect selfless gentleman. But then you might go home and trip on the cement step up to your door and rattle off some pretty colorful words without even thinking.
The only thing that is perfect within a person is "Faith." Your faith can be perfect, but the rest of you is human- flesh.
Did I get close?? If not, then I am confused in your elevation of that word "Selflessness."

In other words, Rumitoid believes in an impotent God, whose grace can be lacking and who cannot do perfectly as he wills without first destroying his creation.

God created the self. He doesn't will self removed or destroyed. Selflessness is not Christian, but a satanic twist to Christian teaching. Rumitoid bows to his master the Devil, by his claims.

Have you ever watched and listened as someone tuned a piano? The point of such an exercise is not to destroy the piano strings or remove their identity (or self,) but to conform all the strings with the master pitch. They do not necessarily play the same pitch as the master pitch, but they conform with it in harmony.

Altruism is devoid of Christ. Christ died for the Christian. For what did Christ die, if ourselves are to be destroyed? Mockeries of himself?

"Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."
Perfect obedience to God is allowing grace to get my will, interests, desires, and faults out of the way, perfectly attuned to, in selfless favor of, God's will; it does not destroy the unique soul he created in his image and likeness but let's that uniqueness be used for his purposes, not mine. The Master Pitch of His word has me vibrate in perfect harmony with "Christ who lives in me."
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by Faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me." Galatians 2:20

You said: "...but to conform all the strings with the master pitch. They do not necessarily play the same pitch as the master pitch, but they conform with it in harmony." You perfectly described the selflessness I am talking about, as described in my words and scripture above.

"Rumitoid bows to his master the Devil, by his claims." One day I will find out if that's true, until then I will continue turning to the Holy Spirit for answers.