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The Unconditional, Non-Resistance to Violence of True, Biblical Christians
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Dec 13, 2015 06:16:16   #
TommyRadd (a regular here)
 
I feel this topic needs to be addressed for two reasons. First, there is lots of confusion about the "official" (biblical) positions of Christianity in comparison with Islam regarding this subject, which reflect on the positions and attitudes of the respective founders of each belief system. Secondly, there are a lot of Christians who, at best (though still inexcusably), are either not well informed on the "faith once delivered to the saints" regarding this topic, or worse, have chosen to reject the clear teachings, indeed commands, of Christ on this issue.

Before I jump into the issue itself, there is some groundwork that needs to be presented.

Beware of false prophets! (Matthew 7:15)

There are a lot of self-proclaimed "Christians" in the world today that call Jesus their Lord with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. Here's what Jesus has to say about that:

Mat 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 “For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 “But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 “Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me." 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus, whom we are commanded to obey and imitate, found it particularly important to confront religious hypocrites; and, for those who read it, he just explained why.

In this example, what Jesus was referring to was the manner in which the scribes and Pharisees had used their reasoning abilities to "rationalize away" the very keeping of, or obedience to, the commandments of God. What they "rationalized" was this: if a son or daughter simply claimed that this "honor" that was due their parents by command, whether money or whatever, was "Corban" (see Mark 7:11) that meant that it was a "dedicated religious gift or offering" and once that declaration was made, the offspring was free to "give it" (or not) to whomever they wished and they were thus no longer "obligated" to give that "blessing" to their parents.

This shows the apparently "clever" way in which religious hypocrites pretend to be serving God according to the rules of their "religion" when in fact all they are doing is what Jesus calls making their honor of God in vain, which means for not, for nothing, that is, utterly useless.

Just as Jesus accused the hypocrites of his day of doing "many such things" so also Christians today do "many" of these same kinds of things all the time, often without even realizing it. The reason they do this, that is, the issue at the heart of the matter, according to Jesus, is because they aren't so much interested in truly making Jesus their "Lord" as they are in keeping a pretense of their (worthless, according to Jesus) "religion." In other words, they are more in love with their form of "religion" than they are with their "Lord." Such negating of commandments is, therefore, only an outward symptom of an inner disease that manifests itself in the negating of God's commands. (It is also called "wresting" the scriptures to one's destruction, 2 Pet 3:16).

This brings us to our topic, which is one such vain tradition of men, which is the way false "Christians" will negate the commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ to love one's enemies and not avenge one's self. Agreeably, this absolute love toward one's enemies, by doing good to them and not doing evil in return, doesn't make sense to the natural mind. So the unspiritually-minded figure out a way to not have to keep that command, thereby making it "of none effect" and ultimately thereby also making their Christian worship vain at the same time. For example…

RWNJ wrote:
The only time a Christian would shoot someone is to defend themselves or others... Anyone can claim to be a Christian. You did know that, right?...” from “The final word on Syrian refugees” thread, Dec 12, 15 00:47:13 http://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-58530-3.html


Now, this statement appears to make "sense." The problem is that it flies in the face of Jesus' commandments, many of them. There simply is no such exception given in all of the New Testament, and it was not even considered as a legitimate Christian position until the fourth century.

Rom 16:17-18
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

I propose to you, dear reader, that the only way any "Christian" will attempt to defend such "reasoning" (which goes so directly against the clear commandments of Christ) will be done in the same, exact manner that Jesus exposed: by making their traditions (ie opinions and extra-biblical reasoning) more authoritative than the commandments of the Lord.

At this point I also want to make a comparison. "Christians" who do such negating of Christ's commandments are not at all unlike today's "liberal" Americans who have denigrated the noble concepts upon which this country was founded.

This very concept is the same one that causes conservatives to cry foul at President Obama’s many “executive actions” that subvert the limit of powers upon his office and in effect negate the constitution. In effect we could say that Obama has laid aside the commandments of the constitution in order to keep his man-made traditions to the contrary that make the constitution of none effect. What makes these actions particularly evil is that he swore an oath to uphold and defend the constitution. This is what makes his actions particularly reprehensible: he has taken to himself an authority that is not his to take. This makes him both a liar and a thief, which is in addition to being a traitor to our constitution and thus our country. While liberals applaud him for his offenses against our country, conservatives rightly denounce these evils. And yet those same conservatives, the Christian ones, turn and commit the same types of lies and treasonous acts against the Kingdom of Christ of which they profess to be servants of. This is utter hypocrisy.

Like these "Christ's-law-breaking" Christians, liberals don't seem to give a hoot what lofty principles the original founders of our country sought, the arguments they put forth, and their reasoning for landing on the words they did that make up our Declaration of Independence, our Bill of Rights, and our Constitution. The same can be said of false Christians who make God's commandments of none effect. These false Christians have the same contempt for the commandments in the New Testament to which they disagree as liberal Americans do to things like the second amendment, or even the first amendment as we are seeing in our colleges these days…and, like Jesus said, many more examples could be given in either case. (For example, see this video: http://americanactionnews.com/articles/must-see-video-trey-gowdy-leaves-this-government-official-speechless
In case the link doesn’t work: americanactionnews.com/articles/must-see-video-trey-gowdy-leaves-this-government-official-speechless)

That's right, in both cases, liberals against the grand American experiment (with its original laws and Constitution) or liberal "Christians" against the commandments of Jesus according to the rules and laws laid out in the New Testament, they both have no true understanding or respect for the laws, or the purposes for those laws, of the respective forms of "governments" of which they claim allegiance. It's called lip service.

For this reason I predict that if we get any response from "Christian" defenders of the contrary position at all, we are going to see those "Christians" attempt to justify their position contrary to the New Testament, the Word of God, by using the exact same manner in which these same "Christians" decry liberals for going against the words and concepts of the Constitution of the USA.

Why? It's very simple. Because they believe something that is not merely not stated in the New Testament, but that goes completely contrary to the New Testament. This is why all they have with which to argue against the New Testament commands are their man-made ideas and interpretations that make such commandments of none effect! It's not deep, it's not difficult, and it's as obvious as the sun in the noonday sky on a cloudless day on an open desert.

So before we get to the commandments that speak directly to the topic at hand, and in anticipation of the predictably groundless arguments of the naysayers, let's look at a few more scriptures about using one's own understanding apart from the law of God. Again, these are not unlike the statements in the Constitution which seek to limit and qualify the laws and the authorities of leaders and separations of powers etc from overstepping their allocated authority; much like conservatives accurately accuse Obama of. These are the same types of things that false Christians do themselves against their professed Lord...

Pro 3:5-7
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Pro 14:12 & Pro 16:25 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Here's something else that Jesus said which we need to keep in mind:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

While it's true, as RWNJ pointed out, that "anyone can claim to be a Christian" the question is, what then is the test?

Well, one thing I can tell you is that the litmus test isn't relegated to the arena of anyone's personal opinions. Furthermore, the litmus test certainly isn't "because I can recognize there are false professors of Christianity and warn you about them, that in itself proves that I couldn't possibly be one of the false ones." A bank robber can tell you there are bank robbers and warn you about them; but that doesn't mean he isn't one. See what I mean?

On the other hand, I imagine everyone who has read the New Testament knows what hypocrites some self-proclaiming "Christians" are who claim Jesus as their "Lord" but then flat out refuse to submit to the commandments that have been given. After all, the word "Lord" isn't merely some foreign title of nobility that has no other inherent meaning. In the context of Christianity it literally means "one having power and authority over others: a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due."

In truth, and according to Jesus, it is by being obedient or disobedient to Christ in His commandments such as these that truly proves whether or not one is under His authority. Paul put it like this:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Furthermore, these commandments aren't given to us Christians a la carte as if we can pick the ones we like and reject the others.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

In other words, if you murder someone, it doesn't matter if you've supported the poor through money and charity work all your life, you're going to get a murderer's sentence.

Of course there are those who simply reject that we are even under the "law of Christ" to Christ, to such again Paul testifies that that he is, and we are–

1 Corinthians 9:21 (…not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)

So for someone to claim Jesus Christ as Lord but then say that doesn't mean they are under the law of Christ is like saying, "yeah he's my sovereign Ruler over me, but that doesn't mean I have to obey him"! Such self-contradictory nonsense clearly betrays the insincerity of such individuals who make such claims!

And that exact type of duplicity and hypocrisy is precisely what I'm undertaking to expose here.

So then, to our topic, here's what Jesus, the one whom real Christians claim as Lord, said-

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 6:46-49 ¶
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them…
48 He is like a man which built an house…on a rock...
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

And what are those commandments of the Lord Jesus'? Very simply, very consistently, very constantly, and very clearly, they are these (you will find no extenuating or excusing circumstances given to these anywhere in the New Testament law of Christ)…

Matt 5:38-48
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father
which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Luke 6:27-36
7 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Rom 12:17-21
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good
.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Prov 25:21-22
21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.

Prov 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the Lord, and he shall save thee.

Prov 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Prov 24:17-18
17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Deut 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Deut 32:39-41
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


1 Cor 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Eph 6:12-18
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


1 Thess 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Peter 2:20-23
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

1 John 3:15-16
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's
.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now let’s look at the early Christians and see how they understood these scriptures. The following quotes demonstrate that non-resistance (not to be confused with pacifism) was consistently held in the early ecclesiastical history (until they succumbed to the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine in 325 AD!). (BTW-Anyone who objectively examines and compares the founding principles of Christianity with the respective founders of Christianity and Islam, can’t possibly fail to notice the differences of attitudes of non-resistance in the one, and the lack of such in the other.)

Speaking of Christians-

"They comfort their oppressors and make them their friends. They do good to their enemies." Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.276.

Spoken by Christians-

"We will not ask you to punish our accusers. Their present wickedness is sufficient punishment." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1. 165.

"We have learned not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us. Not only that, but to those who strike us on one side of the face, we have learned to offer the other side also." Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.129.

"He commanded [His followers] ... not only not to strike others, but even, when they themselves are struck, to present the other cheek.... [He commanded them] not only not to injure their neighbors, nor to do them any evil, but also, when they are dealt with wickedly, to be long-suffering." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.408.

"The philosophers will then with propriety be taken up in a friendly exposure.... but not in the manner of avenging ourselves on our detractors. Rather, it will be for the purpose of their conversion. For vengeance is far from being the case with those persons who have learned to bless those who curse." Clement of AIexandria (c. 195, E), 2.347.

The spiritual man never cherishes resentment or harbors a grudge against anyone-even though deserving of hatred for his conduct. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.540.

"Paul does not merely describe the spiritual man as being characterized by suffering wrong, rather than doing wrong. Rather, Paul teaches that a Christian does not keep count of injuries. For Paul does not allow him even to pray against the man who has done wrong to him. For he knows that the Lord expressly commanded us to pray for our enemies. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.548.

"Christians are not allowed to use violence to correct the delinquencies of sins." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.581.

"Hippias [a pagan] is put to death for laying plots against the state. No Christian ever attempted such a thing on behalf of his brethren. Even when persecution was scattering them abroad with every atrocity." Tertullian (c. 195, W), 3.51.

"If dragged to trial, he does not resist." Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.110.

"The practice of the old law was to avenge itself by the vengeance of the sword. It was to pluck out "eye for eye," and to inflict retaliatory revenge for injury. However, the practice of the new law points to clemency." Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.154.

"Men of old were used to requiring "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth" and to repay evil for evil, with usury! ...But after Christ has supervened and has united the grace of faith with patience, now it is no longer lawful to attack others even with words, nor to merely say "fool," without danger of the judgment. Christ says, "Love your enemies and bless ,our cursers, and pray for your persecutors."" Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.711.

"If someone attempts to provoke you by physical violence, the admonition of the Lord is at hand. He says, "To him who strikes you on the face, turn the other cheek also." Let outrageousness be worn out by your patience. Whatever that blow may be, joined with pain and , scorn, it will receive a heavier one from the Lord." Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.712.

"For what difference is there between provoker and provoked? The only difference is that the former was the first to do evil, but the latter did evil afterwards. Each one stands condemned in the eyes of the Lord for hurting a man. For God both prohibits and condemns every wickedness. In evil doing, there is no account taken of the order.... The commandment is absolute: evil is not to be repaid with evil." Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.713.

"Christ plainly teaches a new kind of long-suffering, when He actually prohibits the reprisals that the Creator permitted in requiring "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."" Tertullian (c. -'07, W), 3.370.

The Lord will save them in that day-even His people-like sheep.... No one gives the name of "sheep" to those who fall in battle with arms in hand, or those who are killed when repelling force with force. Rather, it is given only to those who are slain, yielding themselves up in their own place of duty and with patience-rather than fighting in self-defense." Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.415.

"[Celsus, a pagan critic,] says, "They also have a teaching to this effect: that we should not avenge ourselves on one who injures us." Or, as Christ expresses it: "Whoever will strike you on the one cheek, turn the other to him also."" Origen (c. 248, E), 4.634.

"We revile no one, for we believe that "revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God." And we read, "Bless them that curse you; bless, and curse not." Also, "Being reviled, we bless."" Origen (c. 248, E), 4.654.

"Do not willingly use force and do not return force when it is used against you." Commodianus (c. 240, W), 4.212.

"When a Christian is arrested, he does not resist. Nor does he avenge himself against your unrighteous violence-even though our people are numerous and plentiful." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.462.

"We may not hate. And we please God more by rendering no return for wrong. Therefore, we exhort you to make satisfaction to God. Do this while you have the power, while there yet remains in you something of life.... We do not envy your comforts, nor do we conceal the divine benefits. We repay kindness for your hatred. In return for the torments and penalties that are inflicted on us, we point out to you the ways of salvation." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.465.

"The Christian has departed from rage and carnal contention as if from the hurricanes of the sea. He has already begun to be tranquil and meek in the harbor of Christ. Therefore, he should allow neither anger nor discord within his breath. For he must neither return evil for evil, nor bear hatred." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.488.

"Even our enemies are to be loved." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.546.

"Do no one any injury at any time; provoke no one to anger. If an injury is done to you, look to Jesus Christ. And even as you desire Him to forgive your transgressions, also forgive others theirs." Theonas of Alexandria (c. 300, E), 6.169.

[b]"Religion is to be defended-not by putting to death-but by dying. Not by cruelty, but by patient endurance. Not by guilt, but by good faith. For the former belongs to evil, but the latter to the good.... For if you wish to defend religion by bloodshed, tortures, and guilt, it will no longer be defended. Rather, it will be polluted and profaned.... And, therefore, when we suffer such impious things, [u]we do not resist even in word. Rather, we leave vengeance to God[/u. We do not act as those persons who would have it appear that they are defenders of their gods, who rage without restraint against those who do not worship them."[/b] Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.157,158.

"If we all derive our origin from one man whom God created, we are clearly of one blood. Therefore, it must be considered the greatest wickedness to hate a man-even if he is guilty. On this account, God has forbidden us to ever contract enmities. Rather, they are to be eliminated, so that we sooth those who are our enemies by reminding them of their relationship. For, if we are all inspired and quickened by one God, what else are we except brothers? ... Therefore, they are to be considered as savage beasts who injure man, who-in opposition to every law and right of human nature-plunder, torture, slay, and banish. On account of this relationship of brotherhood, God teaches us never to do evil, but always good." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.172, 173.

"When we suffer such ungodly things, we do not resist even in word. Rather, we leave vengeance to God." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.158.

The Christian does injury to no one. He does not desire the property of others. In fact, he does not even defend his own property if it is taken from him by violence. For he knows how to patiently bear an injury inflicted upon him." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.160.

"We do not resist those who injure us, for we must yield to them." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.182.

"If anyone should be so shameless as to inflict injury on a good and just man, such a man must bear it with calmness and moderation. He will not take upon himself his revenge. Rather, he will reserve it for the judgment of God. He must maintain innocence at all times and in all places. And this commandment is not limited to merely his not [being the first to] inflict injury on another. Rather, he should not even avenge it when injury is inflicted on him. For there sits on the judgment-seat a very great and impartial Judge." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.183.

"Why do contests, fights, and contentions arise among men? Is it because impatience against injustice often excites great tempests? However, if you meet injustice with patience, then no virtue can be found more true.... In contrast, if injustice ... has met with impatience on the same level as itself, . . . it will ignite a great fire that no stream can extinguish, but only the shedding of blood." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.184.

"In what respect, then, does the wise and good man differ from the evil and foolish one? Is it not that he has unconquerable patience, of which the foolish are destitute? Is it not that he knows how to govern himself and to mitigate his anger-which those are unable to curb because they are without virtue? ... What if a man gives way to grief and anger and indulges these emotions (which he should struggle against)? What if he rushes wherever injustice will call him? Such a man does not fulfill the duty of virtue. For he who tries to return an injury desires to imitate that very person by whom he has been injured. In short, he who imitates a bad man cannot be good." Lactantius (c. 304--313, W), 7.184.

"When provoked by injury, if he returns violence to his assailant, he is defeated." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.185,

""An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." That is the expression of justice. However, His injunction that a man who is struck on the one cheek should offer the other also-that is the expression of goodness. Now, are justice and goodness opposed to each other? Far from it! Rather, there has only been advancement from simple justice to positive goodness." Disputation of Archelaus and Manes (c. 320, E), 6.216; see also 3.370-3.372.


"There is nothing, my blessed son, which can or ought to be preferred to Him who is the true Lord, the true Father, the eternal Commander. To whom is it right to devote our lives more than to Him from whom we received them, and for whom we must preserve them to the end, because we live by His kindness? If we have been a soldier for Him in this world, we shall then deserve to pass over to Him. But if we love this world more, and prefer to be a soldier for Caesar than for Christ, we shall later be transported not to Christ but to hell, where the cause of the princes of this world rests. So we ought not put loyalties or fatherland or distinctions or riches before God, for Scripture says "The fashion of this world passeth away" ... Therefore do not any longer love this world or its military service, for Scripture's authority attests that whoever is a friend of this world is an enemy of God. He who is a soldier with the sword is the servant of death, and when he sheds his own blood or that of another, this is the reward for his service. He will be regarded as guilty of death either because of his own death or because of his sin because a soldier in a war, fighting not so much for himself as for another, is either conquered and killed, or conquers and wins a pretext for death--for he cannot be a victor unless he first sheds blood. So the Lord says: You cannot serve two masters, the one God and the one mammon, that is, Christ and Caesar, even though Caesar himself is now keen to be Christ's servant so that he may deserve kingship over a few peoples." St. Paulinas of Nola, Letter 25 (To Crispanus)


"The climate of the church on the subject of peace and nonresistance changed extremely rapidly after the conversion of Constantine (312), and after he gave Christianity legal status in the empire (313). The amazing fact of Constantine being a Christian emperor and soldier caused the church to do a swift about-face. It is of course also true that from A.D. 174, there had been some soldiers in the Roman army who professed to be Christians. Yet as late as 374 Basil the Great still counseled that those who had killed in war should abstain from communion for three years, "for they were unclean of hand." On the other hand, incredible as it appears historically, the Council of Arles in 314 threatened nonresistants with excommunication! This action seems unbelievable! Harnack comments: "By this decision the church completely revised her attitude to the army and war, the attitude that had prevailed until now, at least in theory. The church had longed to win the emperor, and now flung herself into his arms. . . . She . . . relegated to the monastic orders her old views about war and the military calling." By the latter fourth century outstanding leaders were giving assent to the new position formulated at Arles. Athanasius (about 350) could write, "Murder is not permitted, but to kill one's adversarv in war is both lawful and praiseworthy." And twenty-five years later, Ambrose could declare, "And that course which either protects the homeland against barbarians, in war, or defends the weak at home, or saves one's comrades from brigands, is full of righteousness." It only remained for Augustine (354-430) fully and systematically to defend the right of Christians to participate in a just war."
http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html, J. C. Wenger, Professor of Historical Theology in Goshen College Biblical Seminary.

~~~~~

Now then, let's see what kinds of man-made traditions and "leaning on one's own understandings" and "laying aside the commandments of God" these false Christians try to come up with to make the commands of the Lord Jesus null and void, or at least watered down to the point they can tolerate them. And then we'll all know who the "real" liberal traitors to their "government" are. The sad part is, like secular liberals, those who will fight against such obvious truth won't even comprehend the extent of their treachery and rebelliousness.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Luke 9:23-26
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

| Reply
Dec 13, 2015 07:43:39   #
robmull
 
[quote=TommyRadd]I feel this topic needs to be addressed for two reasons. First, there is lots of confusion about the "official" (biblical) positions of Christianity in comparison with Islam regarding this subject, which reflect on the positions and attitudes of the respective founders of each belief system. Secondly, there are a lot of Christians who, at best (though still inexcusably), are either not well informed on the "faith once delivered to the saints" regarding this topic, or worse, have chosen to reject the clear teachings, indeed commands, of Christ on this issue.

Before I jump into the issue itself, there is some groundwork that needs to be presented.

Beware of false prophets! (Matthew 7:15)

There are a lot of self-proclaimed "Christians" in the world today that call Jesus their Lord with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. Here's what Jesus has to say about that:

Mat 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 “For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 “But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 “Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me." 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus, whom we are commanded to obey and imitate, found it particularly important to confront religious hypocrites; and, for those who read it, he just explained why.

In this example, what Jesus was referring to was the manner in which the scribes and Pharisees had used their reasoning abilities to "rationalize away" the very keeping of, or obedience to, the commandments of God. What they "rationalized" was this: if a son or daughter simply claimed that this "honor" that was due their parents by command, whether money or whatever, was "Corban" (see Mark 7:11) that meant that it was a "dedicated religious gift or offering" and once that declaration was made, the offspring was free to "give it" (or not) to whomever they wished and they were thus no longer "obligated" to give that "blessing" to their parents.

This shows the apparently "clever" way in which religious hypocrites pretend to be serving God according to the rules of their "religion" when in fact all they are doing is what Jesus calls making their honor of God in vain, which means for not, for nothing, that is, utterly useless.

Just as Jesus accused the hypocrites of his day of doing "many such things" so also Christians today do "many" of these same kinds of things all the time, often without even realizing it. The reason they do this, that is, the issue at the heart of the matter, according to Jesus, is because they aren't so much interested in truly making Jesus their "Lord" as they are in keeping a pretense of their (worthless, according to Jesus) "religion." In other words, they are more in love with their form of "religion" than they are with their "Lord." Such negating of commandments is, therefore, only an outward symptom of an inner disease that manifests itself in the negating of God's commands. (It is also called "wresting" the scriptures to one's destruction, 2 Pet 3:16).

This brings us to our topic, which is one such vain tradition of men, which is the way false "Christians" will negate the commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ to love one's enemies and not avenge one's self. Agreeably, this absolute love toward one's enemies, by doing good to them and not doing evil in return, doesn't make sense to the natural mind. So the unspiritually-minded figure out a way to not have to keep that command, thereby making it "of none effect" and ultimately thereby also making their Christian worship vain at the same time. For example…



Now, this statement appears to make "sense." The problem is that it flies in the face of Jesus' commandments, many of them. There simply is no such exception given in all of the New Testament, and it was not even considered as a legitimate Christian position until the fourth century.

Rom 16:17-18
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

I propose to you, dear reader, that the only way any "Christian" will attempt to defend such "reasoning" (which goes so directly against the clear commandments of Christ) will be done in the same, exact manner that Jesus exposed: by making their traditions (ie opinions and extra-biblical reasoning) more authoritative than the commandments of the Lord.

At this point I also want to make a comparison. "Christians" who do such negating of Christ's commandments are not at all unlike today's "liberal" Americans who have denigrated the noble concepts upon which this country was founded.

This very concept is the same one that causes conservatives to cry foul at President Obama’s many “executive actions” that subvert the limit of powers upon his office and in effect negate the constitution. In effect we could say that Obama has laid aside the commandments of the constitution in order to keep his man-made traditions to the contrary that make the constitution of none effect. What makes these actions particularly evil is that he swore an oath to uphold and defend the constitution. This is what makes his actions particularly reprehensible: he has taken to himself an authority that is not his to take. This makes him both a liar and a thief, which is in addition to being a traitor to our constitution and thus our country. While liberals applaud him for his offenses against our country, conservatives rightly denounce these evils. And yet those same conservatives, the Christian ones, turn and commit the same types of lies and treasonous acts against the Kingdom of Christ of which they profess to be servants of. This is utter hypocrisy.

Like these "Christ's-law-breaking" Christians, liberals don't seem to give a hoot what lofty principles the original founders of our country sought, the arguments they put forth, and their reasoning for landing on the words they did that make up our Declaration of Independence, our Bill of Rights, and our Constitution. The same can be said of false Christians who make God's commandments of none effect. These false Christians have the same contempt for the commandments in the New Testament to which they disagree as liberal Americans do to things like the second amendment, or even the first amendment as we are seeing in our colleges these days…and, like Jesus said, many more examples could be given in either case. (For example, see this video: http://americanactionnews.com/articles/must-see-video-trey-gowdy-leaves-this-government-official-speechless
In case the link doesn’t work: americanactionnews.com/articles/must-see-video-trey-gowdy-leaves-this-government-official-speechless)

That's right, in both cases, liberals against the grand American experiment (with its original laws and Constitution) or liberal "Christians" against the commandments of Jesus according to the rules and laws laid out in the New Testament, they both have no true understanding or respect for the laws, or the purposes for those laws, of the respective forms of "governments" of which they claim allegiance. It's called lip service.

For this reason I predict that if we get any response from "Christian" defenders of the contrary position at all, we are going to see those "Christians" attempt to justify their position contrary to the New Testament, the Word of God, by using the exact same manner in which these same "Christians" decry liberals for going against the words and concepts of the Constitution of the USA.

Why? It's very simple. Because they believe something that is not merely not stated in the New Testament, but that goes completely contrary to the New Testament. This is why all they have with which to argue against the New Testament commands are their man-made ideas and interpretations that make such commandments of none effect! It's not deep, it's not difficult, and it's as obvious as the sun in the noonday sky on a cloudless day on an open desert.

So before we get to the commandments that speak directly to the topic at hand, and in anticipation of the predictably groundless arguments of the naysayers, let's look at a few more scriptures about using one's own understanding apart from the law of God. Again, these are not unlike the statements in the Constitution which seek to limit and qualify the laws and the authorities of leaders and separations of powers etc from overstepping their allocated authority; much like conservatives accurately accuse Obama of. These are the same types of things that false Christians do themselves against their professed Lord...

Pro 3:5-7
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Pro 14:12 & Pro 16:25 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Here's something else that Jesus said which we need to keep in mind:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

While it's true, as RWNJ pointed out, that "anyone can claim to be a Christian" the question is, what then is the test?

Well, one thing I can tell you is that the litmus test isn't relegated to the arena of anyone's personal opinions. Furthermore, the litmus test certainly isn't "because I can recognize there are false professors of Christianity and warn you about them, that in itself proves that I couldn't possibly be one of the false ones." A bank robber can tell you there are bank robbers and warn you about them; but that doesn't mean he isn't one. See what I mean?

On the other hand, I imagine everyone who has read the New Testament knows what hypocrites some self-proclaiming "Christians" are who claim Jesus as their "Lord" but then flat out refuse to submit to the commandments that have been given. After all, the word "Lord" isn't merely some foreign title of nobility that has no other inherent meaning. In the context of Christianity it literally means "one having power and authority over others: a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due."

In truth, and according to Jesus, it is by being obedient or disobedient to Christ in His commandments such as these that truly proves whether or not one is under His authority. Paul put it like this:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Furthermore, these commandments aren't given to us Christians a la carte as if we can pick the ones we like and reject the others.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

In other words, if you murder someone, it doesn't matter if you've supported the poor through money and charity work all your life, you're going to get a murderer's sentence.

Of course there are those who simply reject that we are even under the "law of Christ" to Christ, to such again Paul testifies that that he is, and we are–

1 Corinthians 9:21 (…not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)

So for someone to claim Jesus Christ as Lord but then say that doesn't mean they are under the law of Christ is like saying, "yeah he's my sovereign Ruler over me, but that doesn't mean I have to obey him"! Such self-contradictory nonsense clearly betrays the insincerity of such individuals who make such claims!

And that exact type of duplicity and hypocrisy is precisely what I'm undertaking to expose here.

So then, to our topic, here's what Jesus, the one whom real Christians claim as Lord, said-

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 6:46-49 ¶
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them…
48 He is like a man which built an house…on a rock...
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

And what are those commandments of the Lord Jesus'? Very simply, very consistently, very constantly, and very clearly, they are these (you will find no extenuating or excusing circumstances given to these anywhere in the New Testament law of Christ)…

Matt 5:38-48
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father
which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Luke 6:27-36
7 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Rom 12:17-21
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good
.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Prov 25:21-22
21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.

Prov 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the Lord, and he shall save thee.

Prov 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.

Prov 24:17-18
17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Deut 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Deut 32:39-41
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


1 Cor 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Eph 6:12-18
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


1 Thess 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Peter 2:20-23
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

1 John 3:15-16
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's
.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now let’s look at the early Christians and see how they understood these scriptures. The following quotes demonstrate that non-resistance (not to be confused with pacifism) was consistently held in the early ecclesiastical history (until they succumbed to the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine in 325 AD!). (BTW-Anyone who objectively examines and compares the founding principles of Christianity with the respective founders of Christianity and Islam, can’t possibly fail to notice the differences of attitudes of non-resistance in the one, and the lack of such in the other.)

Speaking of Christians-

"They comfort their oppressors and make them their friends. They do good to their enemies." Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.276.

Spoken by Christians-

"We will not ask you to punish our accusers. Their present wickedness is sufficient punishment." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1. 165.

"We have learned not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us. Not only that, but to those who strike us on one side of the face, we have learned to offer the other side also." Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.129.

"He commanded [His followers] ... not only not to strike others, but even, when they themselves are struck, to present the other cheek.... [He commanded them] not only not to injure their neighbors, nor to do them any evil, but also, when they are dealt with wickedly, to be long-suffering." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.408.

"The philosophers will then with propriety be taken up in a friendly exposure.... but not in the manner of avenging ourselves on our detractors. Rather, it will be for the purpose of their conversion. For vengeance is far from being the case with those persons who have learned to bless those who curse." Clement of AIexandria (c. 195, E), 2.347.

The spiritual man never cherishes resentment or harbors a grudge against anyone-even though deserving of hatred for his conduct. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.540.

"Paul does not merely describe the spiritual man as being characterized by suffering wrong, rather than doing wrong. Rather, Paul teaches that a Christian does not keep count of injuries. For Paul does not allow him even to pray against the man who has done wrong to him. For he knows that the Lord expressly commanded us to pray for our enemies. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.548.

"Christians are not allowed to use violence to correct the delinquencies of sins." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.581.

"Hippias [a pagan] is put to death for laying plots against the state. No Christian ever attempted such a thing on behalf of his brethren. Even when persecution was scattering them abroad with every atrocity." Tertullian (c. 195, W), 3.51.

"If dragged to trial, he does not resist." Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.110.

"The practice of the old law was to avenge itself by the vengeance of the sword. It was to pluck out "eye for eye," and to inflict retaliatory revenge for injury. However, the practice of the new law points to clemency." Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.154.

"Men of old were used to requiring "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth" and to repay evil for evil, with usury! ...But after Christ has supervened and has united the grace of faith with patience, now it is no longer lawful to attack others even with words, nor to merely say "fool," without danger of the judgment. Christ says, "Love your enemies and bless ,our cursers, and pray for your persecutors."" Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.711.

"If someone attempts to provoke you by physical violence, the admonition of the Lord is at hand. He says, "To him who strikes you on the face, turn the other cheek also." Let outrageousness be worn out by your patience. Whatever that blow may be, joined with pain and , scorn, it will receive a heavier one from the Lord." Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.712.

"For what difference is there between provoker and provoked? The only difference is that the former was the first to do evil, but the latter did evil afterwards. Each one stands condemned in the eyes of the Lord for hurting a man. For God both prohibits and condemns every wickedness. In evil doing, there is no account taken of the order.... The commandment is absolute: evil is not to be repaid with evil." Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.713.

"Christ plainly teaches a new kind of long-suffering, when He actually prohibits the reprisals that the Creator permitted in requiring "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."" Tertullian (c. -'07, W), 3.370.

The Lord will save them in that day-even His people-like sheep.... No one gives the name of "sheep" to those who fall in battle with arms in hand, or those who are killed when repelling force with force. Rather, it is given only to those who are slain, yielding themselves up in their own place of duty and with patience-rather than fighting in self-defense." Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.415.

"[Celsus, a pagan critic,] says, "They also have a teaching to this effect: that we should not avenge ourselves on one who injures us." Or, as Christ expresses it: "Whoever will strike you on the one cheek, turn the other to him also."" Origen (c. 248, E), 4.634.

"We revile no one, for we believe that "revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God." And we read, "Bless them that curse you; bless, and curse not." Also, "Being reviled, we bless."" Origen (c. 248, E), 4.654.

"Do not willingly use force and do not return force when it is used against you." Commodianus (c. 240, W), 4.212.

"When a Christian is arrested, he does not resist. Nor does he avenge himself against your unrighteous violence-even though our people are numerous and plentiful." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.462.

"We may not hate. And we please God more by rendering no return for wrong. Therefore, we exhort you to make satisfaction to God. Do this while you have the power, while there yet remains in you something of life.... We do not envy your comforts, nor do we conceal the divine benefits. We repay kindness for your hatred. In return for the torments and penalties that are inflicted on us, we point out to you the ways of salvation." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.465.

"The Christian has departed from rage and carnal contention as if from the hurricanes of the sea. He has already begun to be tranquil and meek in the harbor of Christ. Therefore, he should allow neither anger nor discord within his breath. For he must neither return evil for evil, nor bear hatred." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.488.

"Even our enemies are to be loved." Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.546.

"Do no one any injury at any time; provoke no one to anger. If an injury is done to you, look to Jesus Christ. And even as you desire Him to forgive your transgressions, also forgive others theirs." Theonas of Alexandria (c. 300, E), 6.169.

[b]"Religion is to be defended-not by putting to death-but by dying. Not by cruelty, but by patient endurance. Not by guilt, but by good faith. For the former belongs to evil, but the latter to the good.... For if you wish to defend religion by bloodshed, tortures, and guilt, it will no longer be defended. Rather, it will be polluted and profaned.... And, therefore, when we suffer such impious things, [u]we do not resist even in word. Rather, we leave vengeance to God[/u. We do not act as those persons who would have it appear that they are defenders of their gods, who rage without restraint against those who do not worship them."[/b] Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.157,158.

"If we all derive our origin from one man whom God created, we are clearly of one blood. Therefore, it must be considered the greatest wickedness to hate a man-even if he is guilty. On this account, God has forbidden us to ever contract enmities. Rather, they are to be eliminated, so that we sooth those who are our enemies by reminding them of their relationship. For, if we are all inspired and quickened by one God, what else are we except brothers? ... Therefore, they are to be considered as savage beasts who injure man, who-in opposition to every law and right of human nature-plunder, torture, slay, and banish. On account of this relationship of brotherhood, God teaches us never to do evil, but always good." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.172, 173.

"When we suffer such ungodly things, we do not resist even in word. Rather, we leave vengeance to God." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.158.

The Christian does injury to no one. He does not desire the property of others. In fact, he does not even defend his own property if it is taken from him by violence. For he knows how to patiently bear an injury inflicted upon him." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.160.

"We do not resist those who injure us, for we must yield to them." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.182.

"If anyone should be so shameless as to inflict injury on a good and just man, such a man must bear it with calmness and moderation. He will not take upon himself his revenge. Rather, he will reserve it for the judgment of God. He must maintain innocence at all times and in all places. And this commandment is not limited to merely his not [being the first to] inflict injury on another. Rather, he should not even avenge it when injury is inflicted on him. For there sits on the judgment-seat a very great and impartial Judge." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.183.

"Why do contests, fights, and contentions arise among men? Is it because impatience against injustice often excites great tempests? However, if you meet injustice with patience, then no virtue can be found more true.... In contrast, if injustice ... has met with impatience on the same level as itself, . . . it will ignite a great fire that no stream can extinguish, but only the shedding of blood." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.184.

"In what respect, then, does the wise and good man differ from the evil and foolish one? Is it not that he has unconquerable patience, of which the foolish are destitute? Is it not that he knows how to govern himself and to mitigate his anger-which those are unable to curb because they are without virtue? ... What if a man gives way to grief and anger and indulges these emotions (which he should struggle against)? What if he rushes wherever injustice will call him? Such a man does not fulfill the duty of virtue. For he who tries to return an injury desires to imitate that very person by whom he has been injured. In short, he who imitates a bad man cannot be good." Lactantius (c. 304--313, W), 7.184.

"When provoked by injury, if he returns violence to his assailant, he is defeated." Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.185,

""An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." That is the expression of justice. However, His injunction that a man who is struck on the one cheek should offer the other also-that is the expression of goodness. Now, are justice and goodness opposed to each other? Far from it! Rather, there has only been advancement from simple justice to positive goodness." Disputation of Archelaus and Manes (c. 320, E), 6.216; see also 3.370-3.372.


"There is nothing, my blessed son, which can or ought to be preferred to Him who is the true Lord, the true Father, the eternal Commander. To whom is it right to devote our lives more than to Him from whom we received them, and for whom we must preserve them to the end, because we live by His kindness? If we have been a soldier for Him in this world, we shall then deserve to pass over to Him. But if we love this world more, and prefer to be a soldier for Caesar than for Christ, we shall later be transported not to Christ but to hell, where the cause of the princes of this world rests. So we ought not put loyalties or fatherland or distinctions or riches before God, for Scripture says "The fashion of this world passeth away" ... Therefore do not any longer love this world or its military service, for Scripture's authority attests that whoever is a friend of this world is an enemy of God. He who is a soldier with the sword is the servant of death, and when he sheds his own blood or that of another, this is the reward for his service. He will be regarded as guilty of death either because of his own death or because of his sin because a soldier in a war, fighting not so much for himself as for another, is either conquered and killed, or conquers and wins a pretext for death--for he cannot be a victor unless he first sheds blood. So the Lord says: You cannot serve two masters, the one God and the one mammon, that is, Christ and Caesar, even though Caesar himself is now keen to be Christ's servant so that he may deserve kingship over a few peoples." St. Paulinas of Nola, Letter 25 (To Crispanus)


"The climate of the church on the subject of peace and nonresistance changed extremely rapidly after the conversion of Constantine (312), and after he gave Christianity legal status in the empire (313). The amazing fact of Constantine being a Christian emperor and soldier caused the church to do a swift about-face. It is of course also true that from A.D. 174, there had been some soldiers in the Roman army who professed to be Christians. Yet as late as 374 Basil the Great still counseled that those who had killed in war should abstain from communion for three years, "for they were unclean of hand." On the other hand, incredible as it appears historically, the Council of Arles in 314 threatened nonresistants with excommunication! This action seems unbelievable! Harnack comments: "By this decision the church completely revised her attitude to the army and war, the attitude that had prevailed until now, at least in theory. The church had longed to win the emperor, and now flung herself into his arms. . . . She . . . relegated to the monastic orders her old views about war and the military calling." By the latter fourth century outstanding leaders were giving assent to the new position formulated at Arles. Athanasius (about 350) could write, "Murder is not permitted, but to kill one's adversarv in war is both lawful and praiseworthy." And twenty-five years later, Ambrose could declare, "And that course which either protects the homeland against barbarians, in war, or defends the weak at home, or saves one's comrades from brigands, is full of righteousness." It only remained for Augustine (354-430) fully and systematically to defend the right of Christians to participate in a just war."
http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html, J. C. Wenger, Professor of Historical Theology in Goshen College Biblical Seminary.

~~~~~

Now then, let's see what kinds of man-made traditions and "leaning on one's own understandings" and "laying aside the commandments of God" these false Christians try to come up with to make the commands of the Lord Jesus null and void, or at least watered down to the point they can tolerate them. And then we'll all know who the "real" liberal traitors to their "government" are. The sad part is, like secular liberals, those who will fight against such obvious truth won't even comprehend the extent of their treachery and rebelliousness.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Luke 9:23-26
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.[/quote]












"The respective founders," TR, are God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost [Spirit], and the human Apostles who "founded" Christianity, and then about 500 years later, derived to mock Christianity, enslave and eliminate former religious and cultural beliefs here on earth, came the warrior, pedophile, polygamist, xenophobe, homophobe, misogynist and possibly the original sado-masochistic LGBTQ proponent, Mohammed, to terrorize the world for an eventual "WORLD DOMINATION;" a "Complete System of Life" where NO other religions or cultures would be permitted to exist but Islam.

Jesus believed all men should abide by God's laws and the lawful governance of man, although mans' governance should not be observed if [it] goes against God's governance; abortion is a good example of government exceeding God's 6th Commandment of;"Thou shalt NOT murder." Sure, secular liberal progressive "Marx/Alinskyites," such as "BHB," resolve guilt by claiming the "fetus is not human," although PPH is certainly "mining" barely-used fetus parts for their "30 pieces of silver," for both "research and development."

"WE," I believe, according to many Biblical accounts, have a responsibility and even an obligation to protect ourselves and our families from harm. Our government has quietly and deceptively been replacing OUR free-market Western civilization's culture with a "Complete System of Life," Islam, that is not permitted by Allah, under penalty of 5th century torture and death, [and then the BAD part], to EVER assimilate to ANY culture that is NOT Islam.

I understand that over the last few years nearly a million un-vetted, undocumented "refugee/terrorists," from war-torn Muslim countries, have been imported into America, at the uninformed American taxpayers expense; to say NOTHING of those same "terrorists" flooding over our purposely porous borders. And now the new PM of Canada has much the same agenda and ideology as the anti-American/Western free-market "Marx/Alinsky" media and new American regime as our secular liberal progressive hold-overs and "red-diaper" babies who now hold the biggest megaphone in OUR government, education, politics and media.

| Reply
Dec 13, 2015 12:31:04   #
TommyRadd (a regular here)
 
robmull wrote:
"The respective founders," TR, are God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost (Spirit), and the human Apostles who "founded" Christianity, and then about 500 years later, derived to mock Christianity, enslave and eliminate former religious and cultural beliefs here on earth, came the warrior, pedophile, polygamist, xenophobe, homophobe, misogynist and possibly the original sado-masochistic LGBTQ proponent, Mohammed, to terrorize the world for an eventual "WORLD DOMINATION;" a "Complete System of Life" where NO other religions or cultures would be permitted to exist but Islam.

Jesus believed all men should abide by God's laws and the lawful governance of man, although mans' governance should not be observed if (it) goes against God's governance; abortion is a good example of government exceeding God's 6th Commandment of;"Thou shalt NOT murder." Sure, secular liberal progressive "Marx/Alinskyites," such as "BHB," resolve guilt by claiming the "fetus is not human," although PPH is certainly "mining" barely-used fetus parts for their "30 pieces of silver," for both "research and development."

"WE," I believe, according to many Biblical accounts, have a responsibility and even an obligation to protect ourselves and our families from harm. Our government has quietly and deceptively been replacing OUR free-market Western civilization's culture with a "Complete System of Life," Islam, that is not permitted by Allah, under penalty of 5th century torture and death, (and then the BAD part), to EVER assimilate to ANY culture that is NOT Islam.

I understand that over the last few years nearly a million un-vetted, undocumented "refugee/terrorists," from war-torn Muslim countries, have been imported into America, at the uninformed American taxpayers expense; to say NOTHING of those same "terrorists" flooding over our purposely porous borders. And now the new PM of Canada has much the same agenda and ideology as the anti-American/Western free-market "Marx/Alinsky" media and new American regime as our secular liberal progressive hold-overs and "red-diaper" babies who now hold the biggest megaphone in OUR government, education, politics and media.
"The respective founders," TR, are God, ... (show quote)


RM,
To emphasize the accuracy of your comments about Mohammed and his plan for world domination, I recommend everyone watch this video-
http://rednecknewswire.com/2015/12/three-signs-your-muslim-neighbor-is-going-to-kill-you/

As to this comment:
robmull wrote:
""WE," I believe, according to many Biblical accounts, have a responsibility and even an obligation to protect ourselves and our families from harm."


The only "Biblical accounts" you will find of people physically defending themselves or others would be in the Old Testament. Jesus explicitly changed all that.


Mat 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. 43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?"

There is a difference between non-resistance and pacifism (ie Ghandi). We have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our loved ones and we should do so to the extent that we remain in obedience to the commandments. We have many, many clear and direct commandments that qualify any such "responsibility" from carrying over into the realm of rendering violence for violence. That is as clear cut as ANYTHING in the NT scriptures or in the historic practices of biblical, apostolic Christianity.

In fact, to deny this is to deny the faith, because that is what we are called into, as I quoted previously.

1 Peter 2:20-23
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously

You said yourself, "Jesus believed all men should abide by God's laws and the lawful governance of man, although mans' governance should not be observed if [it] goes against God's governance."

I agree with this statement. What I am pointing out here is that God's law, through Christ also trumps any supposedly "Christian" ideas and opinions to the contrary. In fact this very point is made (in "our" Christian constitution, the NT) under the very discussion of "the weapons of our warfare" being not carnal. That means not of this physical material world, which rules out weapons and even using our bodies as weapons.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ

Christians who believe they are justified in taking vengeance on themselves or others through physical or violent means of any kind have simply not submitted themselves to the law of God in Christ.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Those who are disobedient to Christ's commandments and try to wiggle out of them or justify why they aren't subject to those laws do so for the express reason that they are carnally minded and therefore not subject to Christ.

Now let's get to this statement
robmull wrote:
""and then about 500 years later, derived to mock Christianity, enslave and eliminate former religious and cultural beliefs here on earth, came the warrior, pedophile, polygamist, xenophobe, homophobe, misogynist and possibly the original sado-masochistic LGBTQ proponent, Mohammed…"


Personally, I don't believe Mohammed would have had a chance of gaining any popularity if True, Biblical Christianity hadn't deteriorated to the extent which it had by that time as to being barely comparable to what it originally had been. Now, the way it deteriorated was that it became more and more like the world around them; adopting not only the world's philosophies, but also their customs, cultures and even their gods. This is comparable to the way democrats are trying to make America more and more like third world, or socialist countries and try to discredit real American liberty.

So a similar situation has been happening in America that happened to Christianity. I have little doubt that a man like Obama would have never made it into the White House a hundred or more years ago. First off, he wouldn't have made it past being vetted as a non-natural born citizen. Secondly, his anti-American associations (both Muslim and communistic) would have exposed his anti-American attitude. That's because most Americans understood what America was about and what made it different and superior. Then there would have been his total lack of integrity. America doesn't even seem to grasp anymore that men that are voted into political positions are supposed to be so based on their well-known moral character. And then there are his anti-Constitutional policies. These would have exposed him as soon as he opened his mouth and started talking about his plans and visions for "fundamentally transforming America."

The point is, as with America, so with Christianity. Christianity didn't change overnight any more than America did. First, on both accounts, came the dumbing down of the populace particularly from their respective roles as free and responsible individuals which changed into roles of passive submission to what amount to something more like elite classes of over-lording leaders than either originated as. Then the founding principles were changed by those "leaders" until the original was barely even perceptible. Point being, Constantine could never have "authorized" all the false teachings he had if the Christians hadn't already been duped away from some of the primary truths of true Christianity.

In Christianity the biggest groups of pioneers away from the original were called Anti-Christians and they called themselves Gnostics. They invented a lot of the falsehoods that Constantine legitimized in nominal "Christianity", which are still held as "truths" by most Christians today. In America, secularly, they commonly go by the moniker "liberals" or "Democrats". And worst of all, they lie, and that actually seems to be the actual cornerstone of their whole platform! http://www.black-and-right.com/the-democrat-race-lie/

| Reply
May 15, 2019 08:24:32   #
Hug (a regular here)
 
Fantistic conversation from which I have learned a lot. Thank you folks for taking the time to do these posts.

| Reply
May 16, 2019 03:54:42   #
Canuckus Deploracus (a regular here)
 
Hug wrote:
Fantistic conversation from which I have learned a lot. Thank you folks for taking the time to do these posts.


Well said Hug...

Definately some truth worth pondering here

| Reply
May 16, 2019 05:13:15   #
Blade_Runner (a regular here)
 
TommyRadd wrote:
I feel this topic needs to be addressed for two reasons. First, there is lots of confusion about the "official" (biblical) positions of Christianity in comparison with Islam regarding this subject, which reflect on the positions and attitudes of the respective founders of each belief system. Secondly, there are a lot of Christians who, at best (though still inexcusably), are either not well informed on the "faith once delivered to the saints" regarding this topic, or worse, have chosen to reject the clear teachings, indeed commands, of Christ on this issue.
I feel this topic needs to be addressed for two re... (show quote)
An internet forum is no place for such a protracted sermon. This is far too deep a subject to be conveyed and discussed only in written words. In this instance, words are impotent, totally absent are the personal emotions, reactions and responses of face to face interactions with living breathing human beings. Without the perceptive senses engaged, the eye contact, eye movement, facial expressions, body language, voice tone and inflections, immediacy of reaction and response, without all those remarkable aspects of personal human interactions--as would occur during a church service or group Bible study or even a casual conversation--so much is left to guessing, imagination, even misunderstanding and chance.

There is nothing in this post that I and my pastor, my family and Christian friends have not discussed before.

The Bible is filled with music in praise of our Lord.

U.S. Marines: These are Days of Elijah - Oorah!

The Glory of God: For This We Were Made - Part 1

The Glory of God: For This We Were Made - Part 2

| Reply
May 16, 2019 07:34:22   #
Rose42 (a regular here)
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
An internet forum is no place for such a protracted sermon. This is far too deep a subject to be conveyed and discussed only in written words. In this instance, words are impotent, totally absent are the personal emotions, reactions and responses of face to face interactions with living breathing human beings. Without the perceptive senses engaged, the eye contact, eye movement, facial expressions, body language, voice tone and inflections, immediacy of reaction and response, without all those remarkable aspects of personal human interactions--as would occur during a church service or group Bible study or even a casual conversation--so much is left to guessing, imagination, even misunderstanding and chance.

There is nothing in this post that I and my pastor, my family and Christian friends have not discussed before.

The Bible is filled with music in praise of our Lord.

U.S. Marines: These are Days of Elijah - Oorah!

The Glory of God: For This We Were Made - Part 1

The Glory of God: For This We Were Made - Part 2
An internet forum is no place for such a protracte... (show quote)


Great videos.

Good points about a forum. The OP knows there will likely be no corrections to his false presumption.

I’ve also had this discussion with active duty and combat vets among others(one a pastor). People strong in their faith. Wonderful and enlightening discussions.

| Reply
May 16, 2019 07:50:55   #
Canuckus Deploracus (a regular here)
 
Rose42 wrote:
Great videos.

Good points about a forum. The OP knows there will likely be no corrections to his false presumption.

I’ve also had this discussion with active duty and combat vets among others(one a pastor). People strong in their faith. Wonderful and enlightening discussions.


If you are able to make corrections then why not do so?

What is stopping you?

I find this argument of Tommy's goes against much of what I believe... Certainly any who are familiar with me know that I support capital punishment and believe that God does as well...

I intend to work hard to counter it... And have already asked my friends for their aid...

If I am unable to do so I will be forced to re-evaluate my understanding of my faith... A most annoying event...

Any actual help that you or Blade are willing to give would be most appreciated... Thanks...

| Reply
May 16, 2019 09:48:20   #
Blade_Runner (a regular here)
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
If you are able to make corrections then why not do so?

What is stopping you?

I find this argument of Tommy's goes against much of what I believe... Certainly any who are familiar with me know that I support capital punishment and believe that God does as well...

I intend to work hard to counter it... And have already asked my friends for their aid...

If I am unable to do so I will be forced to re-evaluate my understanding of my faith... A most annoying event...

Any actual help that you or Blade are willing to give would be most appreciated... Thanks...
If you are able to make corrections then why not d... (show quote)


Ravi Zacharias is a world renown Christian Apologist, his story is phenomenal. He has taken the message into some very dangerous countries, including hostile Islamic nations. In this 5 minute talk, Ravi answers the question, Are Christians called to be Pacifists? He does a much better job than I could.

| Reply
May 16, 2019 11:44:00   #
Rose42 (a regular here)
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Ravi Zacharias is a world renown Christian Apologist, his story is phenomenal. He has taken the message into some very dangerous countries, including hostile Islamic nations. In this 5 minute talk, Ravi answers the question, Are Christians called to be Pacifists? He does a much better job than I could.


I was just going to post that link! Ravi Zacharias is excellent and always worth a listen.

| Reply
May 16, 2019 11:55:19   #
Blade_Runner (a regular here)
 
Rose42 wrote:
I was just going to post that link! Ravi Zacharias is excellent and always worth a listen.
Absolutely. Ravi's team includes his son and daughter and a former Muslim who became a Christian and is a practicing physician. His daughter Naomi is a force of nature in her mission to rescue young women from prostitution and the sex trade.

| Reply
May 16, 2019 12:26:19   #
Rose42 (a regular here)
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
Absolutely. Ravi's team includes his son and daughter and a former Muslim who became a Christian and is a practicing physician. His daughter Naomi is a force of nature in her mission to rescue young women from prostitution and the sex trade.


The RZIM team is such a great resource.

Another one is John MacArthur author of The Jesus You Can't Ignore. Jesus was no pacifist and no compromiser.

"So how did Jesus deal with religious leaders who taught error and rejected the gospel? Did He seek common doctrinal ground and engage in dialogue? Did He soften and adapt the gospel so it wouldn’t confront or make them uncomfortable?"

An interview about the book -

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/GTY124/the-jesus-you-cant-ignore-an-interview-with-phil-johnson-and-john-macarthur

| Reply
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