dennisimoto Loc: Washington State (West)

I've heard it all my life and it has always bothered me. "But for the Grace of God, there go I." Sounds innocent and genuine but what I hear is, "God likes me better than the other person I'm referring to." Somehow a "GOD" who picks & chooses is more "human" than "Godlike." If, big IF, God actually created, "All things seen and unseen," as The Creed says, why does He like some parts of it better than other parts? We also seem to believe that God is capable of making mistakes. Some parts of the creation don't 'jibe' with other parts so they must be "wrong," somehow. Now a being that is absolutely perfect is probably not even able to make a mistake but we have no problem criticizing His work and finding fault with it. Hm, hm, hm!

I think that the late J.C. of Biblical fame actually came to Earth and did everything he's credited with but I believe that he could do all of that because he figured out exactly how the world, and the Universe, works. He tried to tell us the "good News" which is that we could all do the same thing (and greater things than this shall you do) if we believed what he believed. Instead of taking his message aboard and living it, we chose to worship Him when he clearly said it wasn't him but "The Father Within," whom we should be worshipping. He wasn't saying "believe in me," he was saying, "believe as I believe."

I have to wonder about this whole "died for our sins" thing. If Jesus Christ was killed by a bunch of Roman soldiers so that everyone's sins would be forgiven for all time, why is there a "Judgement Day?" Isn't that like double jeopardy?? Can you think of anyone who would send his son to be killed in exchange for something that he really has no control over? That being how many and what kind of "sins" will be committed for Eternity by all the people who ever have and whoever will, live? Too subjective for a "perfect" being. And behind a whole lot of surface stuff like that I'm thinking it completely negates personal responsibility.

God's a pretty big deal. Maybe the biggest. So, I don't think He's the least bit intimidated by me. If He has a bone to pick with me I believe that He'd get in my face and we would have it out. There's no need for anyone else to have had to "die for my sins." His idea of how I lived my life is between Him and me.

"Religion," then, to me at least, is a people's construction set up to control other people and probably has little or nothing to with "the" God. An 8 year old girl had it figured out better than anything I've run across so far and it's spelled out in her story, "Mister God, This is Anna." It's available on Amazon and is very reasonably priced.

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

Dennis...I understand what you're saying. I could have "immediate" replies to your comments but I wish to do my daily readings, pray, and sleep on it before making comments. Thanks for being patient.

PS I enjoyed reading your introduction. FYI - Mine is on there now if you wish to see it.

dennisimoto Loc: Washington State (West)

I did read it, MW and I'm happy for you.

WhatIt'sWorth Loc: Methane Sea, Jupiter

At the risk of providing something that may seem an 'over-simplification' -- I would refer to the CHRISTUS VICTOR theory of atonement

because - yes - all of the "Jesus died for our sins" stuff does make one ask "well, WHY?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

so - I know - Wikipedia is the over-simplified 'bare bones' place to start; but in reality - Christus Victor is an elaborate alternative to the "vicarious suffering" of Christ

and as most sites will say once you google it -- it is an atonement theory that has been around (in Church History) for as long as the substitionary/vicarious idea.

OH - and the original phrase "but for the grace of God " stuff -- yeah, man, that does sometimes turn into a condescending look at someone else that one is "better than".

This OP has good points, Dennis.

dennisimoto Loc: Washington State (West)

Thanks WIW. I would much prefer to feel good because I have something to feel good for than because I don't suffer the same misfortune as another. I am an alcoholic in recovery and believe that a power greater than myself has something to do with it. My next younger brother has a long and storied history with alcohol also. I don't know if he's an alcoholic; only he can know that. But if I believe the "But for the Grace .." then I have to believe in a God who says, "Dennis lives; Mike dies." I just have not been able to buy into a loving creative entity who would pick & choose amongst His/Her/Its created. I think He loves us all equally.