Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

fiatlux

In Huskster-bee's announcement for candidacy for president, he told four easily verifiable whoopers. But do not tell Christians this or you are working for the devil. Then there is your source, Pennylynn. Verses used to support the Rapture actually contradict it. In a full Gospel understanding of those supporting verses, it is the Christians that will be left behind. I will show how if this is contested but it is up to each Christian to fully explore the word, wherever it may lead.

But that is not even the point. The whole idea of the Rapture is new and highly questionable by scholars, for reasons already stated. Yet on another level, a very human level, the whole idea of Christians eagerly anticipating getting on the last stage out of Dodge when their neighbors they are supposed to love most desperately need them, is not the sacrificial love Christ showed. In my eyes, myopic as they may be being human and thus limited to sufficiently grasp God's ways with any certainty, every Christian should be begging God daily to stay his hand to give them more time to show the love of God, promote the kingdom of heaven, and change a few more hearts. That is supposed to be our primary purpose.

The Jews are our roots, we are but grafted on. Some historians say that more Jews were killed in the Holy Land than Turks during the Crusades by Christians. Martin Luther was an anti-Semite. (Don't take my word for it, research.) Germany was a decidedly Christian nation when Hitler came to power, yet nearly the entire country stood by as Jews were persecuted. And there have always been pogroms through 2000 years, where often entire villages of Jews were slaughtered by Christians.

My dad was raised to think of Jews as Christ-killers, and he believed that for a time well into his thirties. Maybe it was just a Catholic thing but Enough! Jesus was a Jew! The polemic of Luke's Gospel, for example, is an example of the Church abandoning its roots in Judaism. Misreading Paul added fuel to that fire. The New Covenant is not a rebuke of the Jews as inept followers of scripture, miscreant children of God; it is a call for the world to take their place in that ancestry of a chosen people.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

fiatlux

My bad! I now see my error. Sorry.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

No problems, I enjoyed reading your comments and point of view.

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

I have been researching both the end times and the rapture for several years. To make a long story short, I believe that we are VERY close to the rapture and the end of the age.

Though long, I suggest you read what the commentary below has to say about the rapture. It just might provide you some much needed insight.

I look forward to your bible verses supporting the rapture actually show them contradicting it and how Christians will be left behind.

Rapture References | Jack Kelly
Recently I was challenged to make a list of all the passages in the Bible that hint of a pre-trib rapture. As you may know I believe Paul was the first person on Earth to present a clear pre-trib teaching, about 20 years after the cross. Before that time it was unknown because Jesus didn’t teach it to His other disciples during their time together. And since the Olivet Discourse is directed at Israel, there’s no mention of it there either, even though the end times is in view. Israel will not participate in the rapture.

Now I’ll be the first to admit that doing this requires that you already have a working knowledge of the pre-trib position, because without it you wouldn’t recognize some of these references as being pertinent to the subject. But ever since Paul revealed the rapture, scholars have been seeing hints of it here and there, even in the Old Testament.

Before we begin, in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 Paul explained why God’s plans for the church had been kept secret until after the crucifixion. He said that if the rulers of this age (Satan & Co.) had understood all that God intended for us they would not have crucified the Lord. Not that they could have stopped it, of course. But had they known God was going to use the murder of His Son to save us all, they wouldn’t have gone ahead with it, and in fact would have tried to prevent it. It wasn’t until He was on the cross that they discovered the Lord’s death was going to become payment in full for all our sins, so instead of it being cause for a great celebration it totally disarmed them and made them into a public spectacle (Colossians 2:13-15). Then, 20 years later, they learned about the rapture. These were both things that God had planned from the beginning, but a good general keeps his strategy a secret in order to take his enemy by surprise, so God didn’t let Satan (or anyone else) know about these things until it was too late for him to react. Even now, Satan doesn’t know when the rapture is coming. All he knows is what we know, that each new believer could be the last one, the one that takes us all out of here and beyond his reach forever.

I’m convinced that God’s plan requires the Church to disappear before Daniel’s 70th week begins. Remember, the Lord set aside 70 weeks (490 years) for Israel to accomplish 6 things. (Daniel 9:24) At the end of 69 weeks (483 years) Jesus was crucified, the clock suddenly stopped, and Israel disappeared along with its Temple and Old Covenant worship. Daniel’s prophecy was left incomplete and from that time on, God’s focus was on the church.

The reappearance of Israel in 1948, the promised rebuilding of a Temple, and resumption of Levitical sacrifice during the 70th week make it clear that the Church didn’t end the dispensation of Law but only interrupted it seven years short of its intended duration. We would all agree that if the introduction of a dam into a stream of water interrupts its flow, then it’s reasonable and logical to conclude that removal of the dam will be necessary for the flow to resume. Therefore if the introduction of the Church after the 69th week of Daniels prophecy caused the interruption in its fulfillment, it’s reasonable and logical to conclude that the Church will have to be removed before the final seven years of the dispensation of Law can run their course and Daniel’s prophecy can be fulfilled.

Of course there are other sound reasons why the church has to disappear before the End Times begin in earnest. Not having a destiny on Earth, our presence here would serve no purpose during the time of Earth’s liberation from bondage (Romans 8:19-21). Not being subject to judgment the Church has no unfinished business with God that could be concluded during the End Times. Unlike Israel we don’t need to be made righteous because we’re already as righteous as God is (2 Cor. 5:21).

Jeremiah 30:11 says the End time judgments will serve a twofold purpose, to completely destroy all the nations among which Israel has been scattered and to discipline Israel. Since God does not consider the Church to belong to either group our presence on Earth during that time would be irrelevant.

But the most important reason, as we’ll see, is that God said we won’t be here. Those who teach the Church’s presence on Earth during any part of Daniel’s70th Week have to re-define grace, re-invent the church and re-interpret the Scriptures to support their position.

With that introduction, let’s look at some of the clearest hints God placed in the Scriptures to show He has always planned for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Naturally, we’ll begin in the Old Testament.

Enoch Disappeared
Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took Him away. (Genesis 5:24)

In Matt. 24:37, Jesus said that the time of His coming would be like the days of Noah. He went onto explain that just as all the unbelievers perished in the flood, all unbelievers would perish at the time of His 2nd coming as well. Those who survive the devastation of the Great Tribulation will immediately face judgment and be taken off the planet. The parables of the servant, the ten virgins, and the talents explain this, as does the account of the Sheep and Goat judgment. (Matt. 24:45-25:46)

But if you give the Lord’s statement its widest possible application, you can see that as the time of the Great Flood drew near there were 3 kinds of people on Earth. There were the unbelievers who perished in the flood, Noah and his family who were preserved through it, and Enoch, who was taken by the Lord well before it.

Just so, as the End of the Age draws near there will still be three kinds of people on Earth. They are the unbelievers of our time who will perish in the End Times judgments, modern Israel who will be preserved through them, and the Church who will be taken by God well before they begin.

There some interesting similarities between Enoch and the Church. For starters, the name Enoch comes from a root which means to train or teach. To the church Jesus said, “Go and make disciples (students) of all men.” (Matt. 28:19) And according to Hebrew tradition, Enoch was born on the day that would become Pentecost. It’s the same day the Church was born. I believe Enoch was an early type of the Church and his disappearance before the flood gave the first hint of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Lot Had To Leave Sodom
But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it. (Genesis 19:23)

Abraham had struck a bargain with the Lord that if even 10 righteous people could be found in Sodom and Gomorrah He would spare the cities. The fact that the cities were destroyed indicates 10 righteous people could not be found there. But there was one, and though He wasn’t bound to do it, the Lord instructed the angels to get Lot out of town before commencing their judgment. Peter referred to Lot’s rescue from Sodom as evidence that the Lord does not judge the righteous with the wicked (2 Peter 2:7-9) Lot therefore becomes a model of the Church, who with a righteousness imputed by faith, has to be removed from the time and place of judgment before it begins.

Where Was Daniel?
Daniel 3 contains one of the most popular children’s stories of the Old Testament. Many don’t realize that it’s also one of the clearest models of the End Times anywhere in the Bible. King Nebuchadnezzar represents the anti-Christ who decrees that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship the statue he has made will be put to death in the fiery furnace, which represents Great Tribulation. Daniel’s three friends, representing Israel, refuse to worship the image and are thrown into the furnace to die. While in there they encounter the Lord, are preserved through the judgment, and are elevated to positions of honor in Babylon.

But where was Daniel? He was a prominent figure both before and after chapter 3. But in this episode his name was not even mentioned. Did he worship the statue to escape judgment? If you think that, you don’t know Daniel. Did he refuse to bow down but was not accused? If you think that, you don’t know his enemies. After all they rounded up his three closest friends. For the purposes of this story it’s as if he has disappeared altogether. In chapter 3, Daniel was a model of the Church, who during the End times judgments will have disappeared altogether, while Israel will be preserved through them, meet the Lord in the midst of them, and be elevated to positions of honor in the Kingdom Age.

Isaiah Said It Best
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer. (Isaiah 26:19-21)

Without a doubt this is the clearest statement of the Lord’s intentions for the Church anywhere in the Old Testament. It can’t be tied to any event in history, but clearly awaits a future fulfillment. And it can’t be intended for Israel, whose resurrection will come after the time of God’s wrath, not before it. (Daniel 12:1-2)

Someday soon a group of people will suddenly rise from the dead. Another group, still living, will be whisked away to rooms prepared for them to be hidden from the time of God’s wrath. Then the Lord will punish the people of the Earth for their sins. The fact that the groups being resurrected and hidden are not objects of his wrath is indicated by the switch from second person (resurrected and hidden) to third person (punished). Notice how similar the wording is to 1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture.

But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).

Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)

It’s appropriate to insert John 14:2-3 here as well to see what rooms Isaiah was talking about.

In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

This promise does not point to the 2nd Coming when the Lord will come to Earth to be with Israel here, where they are. This is a promise to the Church that He has gone to His Father’s house to prepare our rooms for us. Then He will come for us to take us there, where He is.

See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.)

I’m convinced this is the passage Paul had in mind when he said “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.” (1 Thes. 4:15). I say this because with the exception of 1 Thes 4:16-17 there is no passage in all the Bible that so clearly describes the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

This is not the sum of Old Testament verses that point to a pre-tribulation rapture. But it’s a good sample of the clearest ones, to help you see that God always intended to take us to be with him before He unleashes the End Times judgments upon the unbelieving Earth.

Obvious By Our Absence?
In His definitive teaching on the End Times, the Lord warned Israel they would be hated and persecuted by all nations because of Him (Matt. 24:9). He said many would fall away from the faith, and would betray and hate each other (Matt. 24:10). He said their Temple would be desecrated by another Abomination of Desolation, and when that happened those in Judea (the New Testament name for Israel) would have to flee into the mountains immediately (Matt. 24:15) He told them to pray that their flight wouldn’t take place in the winter (winters can be harsh in the Judean wilderness) or on the Sabbath (fleeing would violate Sabbath travel restrictions) because the Great Tribulation would be coming and it would be worse than anything man has ever known (Matt. 24:20-21). He said if He didn’t personally intervene not one of them would survive it, but for the sake of the believers among them He would put an end to it at the appointed time (Matt. 24:22). He said false Messiahs and false prophets would perform great signs and miracles to deceive them as the end approached (Matt. 24:24). (Paul confirmed this in 2 Thes. 2:9-10 placing its fulfillment after the rapture.)

He said everyone on Earth will see Him when He comes back (Matt. 24:27) and it will be just like the Days of Noah. Unbelievers who survive the Great Tribulation will be taken away in the judgments that follow His return and believers will be welcomed into the Kingdom to build a new world. All this and more, He said to Israel. (Matt. 24:36-25:46)

But did He speak one word of comfort, or even warning, to His Bride? Did He say He’d protect us through this terrifying time? Did He even acknowledge our existence? No. Not once. Why? Because He was talking to Israel about a time after we’re gone. He left it to Paul to explain the details of our rescue after it was too late to stop what He was about to do for us.

Lot Had To Leave Sodom (Revisited)
“It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:28-29)

In Luke 17:26-27 Jesus had been saying how in the days of Noah unbelievers hadn’t heeded the warnings they were given, and didn’t avail themselves of the Lord’s provision for their rescue. They were caught by surprise when the flood came and it destroyed them all.

At first glance verses 28-29 seem like a similar example, but it’s really very different. Lot was taken away from the time and place of the judgment before it began. In fact the angels who were sent to remove him said they couldn’t bring the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was away and safe. (Genesis 19:21-22) As I demonstrated in part one of this series, Lot served as a model of the Church who also has to be rescued from the time and place of the coming judgment before it can begin.

The Resurrection And The Life
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.” (John 11:25-26)

This is an amazing statement. The Lord had already said that whoever believes in Him would not perish but would have eternal life. (John 3:16) Here he provided more detail, saying that even though a believer experiences physical death, he will still have life. He was referring to the resurrection of those who die in faith. And then He said there would be some would never die, but would pass from this life directly into the next one. If we didn’t already know about the rapture, we wouldn’t see this, but since we do we can understand that He was talking about that one generation of believers who will be alive when He comes for the Church, and will receive eternal life without dying first. And once again the Lord confirmed that the single qualification for eternal life is to believe that His death paid the entire price for our sins.

What's To Become Of Israel?
When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things that have been known for ages.’” (Acts 15:13-18)

It was not quite 20 years after the cross, and the Apostles were meeting together in Jerusalem. None of the New Testament had been written yet. 483 years of Daniel’s 490 year prophecy for Israel (Daniel 9:24-27) had been fulfilled on schedule but with the Messiah’s death everything had come to a stop. Before He died, the Lord had even told them that the Temple would soon be completely destroyed, and after His resurrection He had refused to confirm their hope that the Kingdom would now be restored to Israel. In effect He had said, “That’s not for you to know.” (Acts 1:6) And now Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had given eye witness accounts of the Holy Spirit coming directly upon Gentiles with much prophesying and speaking in tongues. If Gentiles could come straight to the Lord and receive the Holy Spirit without converting to Judaism first, did that mean God was finished with the Jews? If so what would become of Israel and all the Lord’s unfulfilled promises to His people?

James, the Lord’s half-brother, helped them understand what was coming. What we now know as the Dispensation of Law had been interrupted while the Lord takes from among the Gentiles a people for Himself (the Church). In Greek the phrase “taking from” literally means to take out of, or carry away from. It denotes an exit, a separation of time, place, and cause.

After He has taken the Church, James said, the Lord will turn His attention once again to Israel. The Temple will be rebuilt and the remaining 7 years of the Dispensation of Law will run their course. This is the time we know as Daniels 70th week. He concluded by saying the Lord has known for ages that He was going to do this.

Paul's Confirmation
Paul, who was there, explained it to the Church at Rome this way. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is (or will be) my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-27)

The Greek word translated “full number” was often used in a nautical sense to define the number of sailors, oarsmen, and soldiers required to man a ship. Once a ship had its full number it could set sail for its intended destination. When it arrived it was said to have “come in.” I believe Paul’s intention was to say that the Church has a “full number” and once that number is reached it will set sail for its intended destination, heaven. No one on Earth knows this number and that’s why no one will know the day or hour of the rapture in advance.

Some commentators believe the same thought was conveyed in Genesis 7 with the Ark. It had to contain 2 of every kind of animal, 7 of the “clean” animals, Noah, his 3 sons, and their 4 wives. That was its full number. Once they were all aboard, the door was shut and the Ark floated away.

When the Church’s “full number” has “come in” to its heavenly destination God will turn His attention once again to Israel and the final 7 years of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy will be fulfilled, culminating in the Lord’s return to establish His Kingdom. This is the Kingdom promised to Israel that Daniel said would never be destroyed, or left to another people, but will endure forever. (Daniel 2:44).

The Rapture Goes Public
They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes 1:10)

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes. 4:16-17)

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thes. 5:9)

These are the rapture verses, named for the Latin translation of the Greek word harpadzo, which means to be caught up or snatched away in English, and which appears in 1 Thes. 4:17. In part one of this series I showed how closely they resemble Isaiah 26:19-21. I believe Paul was using Isaiah’s words to support his claim that this wasn’t just his idea, but had been announced by the Lord nearly eight hundred years earlier.

With the first letter to the Thessalonians Paul gave the first clear promise of a pre-tribulation Rapture. When He called Jesus the one who will rescue us from the coming wrath in chapter 1, he meant that sometime before the seal judgments of Rev. 6, which signal the beginning of God’s wrath (Rev. 6:16-17) Jesus will separate the Church from the time and place of the End Times Judgments. (Look up the full meaning of the Greek word translated “from” in 1 Thes. 1: 10 to confirm this.) In Chapter 4 he said this separation would happen when the Lord comes to take us to be with Him in Heaven. First, believers who have died will be raised up. Then, we who are still alive will be snatched away with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then in Chapter 5 he repeated the reason for our sudden rescue. It was never intended that the Church would suffer through the time of God’s wrath.

Say That Again, Paul
Between the two letters we call 1st and 2nd Thessalonians something happened that would have scared the recipients right out of their socks had they been wearing any. They received a letter that appeared to be from Paul but was in fact a forgery. According to 2 Thes 2:1-2 it said the Day of the Lord had already come. Confused and frightened, they dashed off a hurried request for clarification since this new letter contradicted what Paul had previously taught them.

Here we get an extraordinary insight into their understanding of the sequence of End Times events. Receiving word that the Day of the Lord had come would only have upset them so much if they’d been led to believe that the Rapture of the Church would precede it. Think about it. From any other view, this kind of news would have been scary for sure, but their fear would have been tempered by a certain amount of joyous anticipation. Sure the next few years would really be rough, but whether by martyrdom or survival they would soon be in the presence of the Lord forever.

But from the pre-trib perspective, hearing that the Day of the Lord had come would be horrifying, because it would mean that they had missed the rapture. And that would mean they weren’t saved. No wonder they wrote Paul for clarification!

It’s important to understand that they had asked Paul two questions. The first concerned the Day of the Lord and the second was about our being gathered to Him, the Rapture. Paul answered the 2 questions in that order using verses 3-5 to describe conditions that would bring about the Day of the Lord and verses 6-8 to explain when the rapture would occur in relation to them.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? (2 Thes. 2:3-5)

Confirming and amplifying Daniel?s 70 weeks prophecy (Daniel 9:27) and the Lord’s warning from the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15), Paul pegged the beginning of the Great Tribulation to the moment the antichrist stands in the Temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself to be God.

And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. (2 Thes. 2:6-8)

Before the antichrist can be officially revealed, One who is currently limiting the power of lawlessness has to be taken out of the way. The phrase “out of the way” literally means out of the midst, or from amongst. Some force that restrains the power of evil within certain predetermined limits (for this power is already at work on Earth) has to be removed.

Scholars who read the passage literally identify this force as the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit is sealed within us, if He’s taken out from amongst the people of Earth, we have to go too. You can’t take the Restrainer without taking the container, as someone has said. This is the Rapture of the Church, and once we’re gone the power of evil will be free from restraint and all Hell will break loose on Earth until the Lord returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to put a stop to it.

Here then is the sequence. Before the Day of the Lord can come, the antichrist has to be revealed, and before he can be revealed the church has to be raptured. So according to Paul the next prophetic event involving believers will be our own disappearance.

We concluded with Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians. Written about 20 years after the cross, they were the first definitive teaching on the rapture given on Earth, and as we saw Paul placed it before the End Times judgments, saying the Church was not appointed to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thes. 5:9).

About three years after the Thessalonian letters Paul wrote 1 Corinthians and in Chapter 15 added more detail to his rapture teaching. We’ll begin the final installment there.

What Will We Look Like?
In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul was teaching about the resurrection, responding to questions about how the dead will be raised and what we’ll look like. He used an example from agriculture to describe it. You can’t tell what a plant will look like by examining the seed. You have to plant it and wait till it grows. When it does the plant will look different from the seed, but the farmer will recognize it as having come from the seed he planted. He said that’s the way is with us. We can’t enter Heaven in our earthly state, so we have to be changed into our heavenly state. When we are, the splendor of our heavenly body will be different from the splendor of our earthly one, but we’ll still be recognizable. Just as we can we can tell the sun from the moon and the stars from either and from each other, so it will be with us. We’ll all be unique, recognizable individuals.

Then in 1 Cor. 15:51-53 He wrote;

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

The Greek word for mystery means secret. By saying he was going to tell them a mystery, Paul was saying he was about to reveal a secret. And here it is. When the Lord comes down to meet us in the air we’ll receive no advance notice. In one instant we’ll be going about our business here on Earth and in the next we’ll be standing in the Kingdom. It will happen so fast we won’t have time to blink our eyes. We’ll hear the Trumpet call of God and the voice of the archangel and we’ll step out of this world into the next one. As we look around we’ll realize that multitudes of believers from the Church Age have joined us. The dead will have been given new bodies and the living will have been transformed from mortal to immortal. Paul said we’ll know as we’re known (1 Cor. 13:12), so just as the Lord will recognize each of us, we’ll recognize each other. And John said that what we’ll be is not yet known, but we know that when He appears we’ll be like Him (1 John 3:2) To me that means we’ll have the same capabilities that He demonstrated after His resurrection.

Don’t confuse the trumpet we’ll hear with the 7th Trumpet of Rev. 11:15. In the first place what we’ll hear is the trumpet of God, mentioned elsewhere only in Exodus 19:13 & 19. The 7th Trumpet is blown by an angel in Heaven, announces the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and is never called the last trumpet.

As I said, the phrase Trumpet of God only appears twice in the Bible. The first one is in Exodus 19 at Mt. Sinai and the last one is in 1 Thes. 4. There are some incredible parallels between the giving of the Law and the Rapture of the Church. And as you might expect there are also some big differences. We’ll look at the similarities first.

Both are accompanied by the audible voice of God and both create a Kingdom. At Mt. Sinai the Israelites were redeemed from slavery, at the Rapture we’re redeemed from sin. They were consecrated, we’re perfected. They washed their clothes, we’re given clean clothes. God came to the Mt. top, Jesus comes to the air. At Mt. Sinai Moses and Aaron went up, at the rapture we go up. At Mt. Sinai Israel was wed to God. At the Rapture the Church is wed to Jesus. At Mt. Sinai God dwelt with Israel and at the rapture the Church will dwell with Jesus.

Since many Biblical models are necessarily incomplete, there are also some obvious differences. Only Moses and Aaron could ascend the mountain. Anyone else going up passed from life to death. At the rapture we all go up and everyone passes from death to life. God promised to dwell with Israel if they obeyed. We will dwell with Jesus because He obeyed. They changed themselves temporarily, He changes us permanently. Theirs was an event accompanied by great fear, ours is an event anticipated with great joy. After all Mt. Sinai was the presentation of God’s Law, and the Rapture is the manifestation of His grace. God blew the First Trump in Exodus 19 in preparation for the giving of the Law, and will blow the the Last Trump in 1 Thes. 4:16 to initiate the Rapture.

Rescuing The Righteous
Abraham had reminded the Lord that His character wouldn’t allow Him to judge the righteous with the wicked. Even though the negotiated requirement of 10 righteous men to spare Sodom and Gomorrah hadn’t been met, God instructed the angels to remove Lot before destroying the cities. Speaking of this Peter wrote, “If this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.” (2 Peter 2:9)

Peter wanted us to see from the example of Lot that it wasn’t an isolated incident but was meant to convey a general principle. The Greek word translated “from” in the NIV is more clearly rendered “out of” in the King James. It means away from the time and place of the event being referenced. We see a similar idea conveyed in Isaiah 57:1:

The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.

Here the Hebrew word translated “taken away” means to gather in, receive, or remove. God’s character is such that He can’t allow the righteous to be punished with the wicked.

The 7 Churches Of Rev. 2-3
In a previous study I`ve demonstrated how the seven churches of Rev. 2-3 chronicle Church history. I showed how the first 3 churches (Ephesus, Smyrna and Pergamus) have all disappeared and the remaining 4 (Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea) are all present today. Viewed in chronological order and compared to Church history these four represent the Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical and Apostate churches of today.

In Rev. 2: 22-24 the Lord warned that some from the Church in Thyatira will face the tribulation while others will be rescued and share in rewards that are uniquely reserved for true believers, which includes the rapture. The distinction will be made on the basis of their beliefs. Those who’ve remained true to the Gospel will go while those who adhere to the Catholic church’s “Jesus plus Mary, grace plus works, and Scripture plus sacraments” doctrine will not.

In the letter to Sardis, which represents the main line denominations, Jesus warned of dead orthodoxy having only the appearance of life. “Remember what you have received and heard and obey it.” He said, “Or else you won’t know at what time I will come to you.” He was referring to the Gospel, and notice He said “to you”, not “for you”. Many in the main line denominations don’t know they need to be born again, haven’t got a clue that we’re in the end times and have never even heard of the rapture. As in Thyatira, he said there are a few in Sardis who have remained true. They’ll walk with Him for they are worthy. Once again some will be taken and some left based on what they believe.

Philadelphia is often called The Church of the Rapture because of the Lord’s promise to keep us from the hour of trial that’s going to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). The Greek word translated “from” here is the same one Peter used in describing the Lord’s ability to rescue godly men from trials. Remember it means away from the time and place of the event being referenced, in this case the End Times judgments that are coming upon the whole world. Because we’ve kept His word and not denied His name, He has promised us a place in the New Jerusalem, where only those whose names have been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life can enter (Rev. 21:27). This is the Lord’s personal confirmation of a pre-trib rapture, which when John wrote this in about 95AD had been taught on Earth for nearly 50 years.

The “Church” at Laodicea is really an apostate movement, a spiritual rebellion. Although it has been around throughout the Church Age, its current prominence is a sign that the End of the Age is approaching (2 Thes. 2:3) Thinking of itself as rich and self-sufficient, it lacks the one thing money can’t buy, a Savior. He’s outside the door knocking, hoping someone will hear. There’s no promise to rescue the group, who will be spit out of his mouth, only to individuals who hear and respond.

Come Up Here!
At the beginning of Rev. 4, John was called forward to the End of the Age and up into Heaven to observe and report on events that were nearly 2000 years in his future. When he arrived at the throne of God he saw a group never before seen in any of the Bible’s pictures of God’s throne. Isaiah didn’t see them (Isaiah 6) Ezekiel didn’t see them (Ezekiel 1 & 10), and even Daniel, whose vision was oriented in the End Times only saw a vague hint in the form of plural thrones (Daniel 7:9). I’m speaking of the 24 elders sitting on thrones encircling the Throne of God (Rev. 4:4)

These 24 elders confuse some people, but they shouldn’t. Their appearance gives them away. They have thrones, so they’re rulers. They surround the Throne of God, so they’re assisting Him. They’re seated, so their work is done. They’re dressed in white, so they’re righteous. They’re wearing crowns, so they’re kings. It’s the Greek “stephanos” crown so they’re victors, overcomers. They’re called Elders, a title associated with the Church. That’s a pretty strong case for them representing the Church, and no one has ever come up with a better one.

Some try to explain the 24 thrones by saying that they belong to an unidentified group of ruling angels. But four prophets saw the throne of God and recorded their experience. Of the four, only John saw them. And note that the Church won’t receive crowns until the Bema Seat judgment that takes place after the Rapture. Is this a symbolic view of the church in Heaven before the judgments begin? It looks that way to me.

The Song Of The Redeemed
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men (us) for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them (us) to be a kingdom (kings) and priests to serve our God, and they (we) will reign on the earth.” (Rev. 5:8-10)

This is a controversial passage and taken by itself it’s difficult to understand. But even though most of the modern translations read like the one above, both the King James Version and Young’s Literal Translation put the passage in the first person plural as I’ve indicated in parentheses. The first person version helps supports the view that the 24 Elders represent the Church.

Also the Greek word for King and Kingdom is the same, differing only by gender. King is the masculine form and is the one that appears in Rev. 5:10. (Kingdom is feminine.) So the verse is more grammatically and theologically correct when it’s translated Kings and Priests, which define the Church, rather than a kingdom and priests. And there’s no other group that fits the description of verse 9. Finally, the song is more consistent with the context of the passage when it’s sung by the redeemed Church, not by a third party singing about the Church. Taken together Rev. 4-5 present a good circumstantial case for the Church being present in Heaven before the wrath of God begins in Rev. 6. As we’ve already seen, this is what the Bible has promised from the beginning.

Who's That With The Lord?
Speaking of the anti-Christ and his 10 king confederacy Rev. 17:14 says, “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

This is an overview statement that describes the Great Tribulation, during which Satan, working through the anti-Christ, will attempt to assert his ownership claim to Planet Earth. Rev. 17:13 says these 10 kings will have only that one purpose during the time of their reign. In Rev. 3:10 Jesus called that time the hour of trial that’s coming upon the whole world. In Matt. 24:21 He called it the Great Tribulation. Rev. 17:17 says that the Lord will agree to their rule in order for them to accomplish His purpose, not theirs, and that’s to destroy the Great Prostitute. Once they’re finished with her He’ll appear to personally oversee their defeat. And guess who’ll be with Him when He returns? His called, chosen, and faithful followers. That can only be the Church, in Heaven during the Great Tribulation, and returning with Him at its end.

From Genesis to Revelation, the overwhelming weight of evidence, some circumstantial and some testimonial shows that the Lord always intended to remove the Church from Earth before the End Times Judgments and to hide us in His Father’s house until His wrath has passed by. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

WhatIt'sWorth Loc: Methane Sea, Jupiter

I USED TO BELIEVE IN A "Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church"

It was not something I was "raised to believe in" in the Methodist Church where I grew up - the Methodists said next to nothing about eschatology.

But in college THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH came out -- 666 - Russia is Gog of Magog - blood up to the horses' bridles -- and all of that.

Six Day War - Yom Kippur -- amazing victories for Israel despite overwhelming odds and YEAH ! YEAH !! End times is HERE !! Any day now!!

Well -- any day now since before LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH came out...

it's been a long time -- its been longer than a GENERATION by any calibration you want to call a generation

And I was forced to look at passages and interpretations by those who ACTUALLY TOOK JESUS AT HIS WORD - that 'these are the days of vengeange" and that IN THIS GENERATION all would be fulfilled

And now I believe that in some sense I do not quite understand -- that the PAROUSIA of Christ did indeed happen in the time frame HE said it would -- BEFORE THE GENERATION PASSED AWAY -- the generation He was IN

So I no longer get out my doctrine-machine-gun and train it on those that diss Pre-Trib -- but I am still incensed with those who claim that Pre-Trib "was from a dream of a 14 year old Scottish girl" who was demented -- as the Post Trib opponents of PreTrib claim

Margaret Macdonald did not "invent PreTrib". That's silly. You can read her "vision" and the statement she made about it and realize that what she is describing is NOT Pre-Trib in any way whatsoever. She speaks of the Church "going thru a fiery trial" -- that is hardly Pre-Trib doctrine.

John Darby formulated Pre-Trib -- a serious Scottish Bible teacher -- he later visited young Margaret's home - but his pre-trib stuff was really on paper by 1827 -- 3 years before Margaret's "vision"

So - yes - 1827 compared to 2000 years of Church history is really "NEW" as an idea -- as Fiat has said

Pre-MILLENNIAL second coming has been around as an eschatology since earliest times of the church

Pre-MILLENNIAL as opposed to PRe-Trib Rapture

Grant Jeffries and Thomas Ice can get all excited about finding a reference in Pseudo-Ephraim which might be pre-tribulational -- but -- come on.

Pre-TRib came from Darby - a serious Christian interpreting the Scriptures

He did not "get it from" Margaret Macdonald, or Edward Irving - or Manuel De La Cunza

De La Cunza's work a decade or two earlier than Darby's pre-trib formulation has a 45-day tribulation period -- it is NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL as Pre-Trib as we know it

Historically, the church's eschatology was first pre-MILLENNIAL (Chiliasm) then Amillennial as Augustine took the field and squashed out the pre-mills

Historicism and Preterism came in as people cogitated on prophecy

I do not put forth to KNOW the answers -- it might be true that there is a Rapture coming before I hit SEND on this post -- but I know longer believe that.

I could get run over crossing the street this afternoon also -- existentially -- what would be the difference?

And if the PAROUSIA of Christ was a thing SPIRITUAL IN NATURE that occurred by 70 A.D.

then most of Christian eschatology -

pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, no-trib - amillennial -- it all gets

STOOD ON ITS HEAD

NumenEyes

Have no idea what I am talking about but offer this from a search. All cut and paste.

1. If the rapture happened today, why does my friend Roger get a second chance but my mom doesn’t? Why would God create a system where only a select few get a second chance to believe and be saved, while all those who died before, get their life and that’s it. The rapture is a theology for those living in the here and now appealing to those who think only of themselves. As I have already shared, Christ’s mercy and love have already been “lavished” on us. There is no need for more. Just as the rich man who went to hell and pleaded for God to warn his brothers––Christ is and was our only warning. The rapture demeans the redemptive work of God and his absolute judgment. As if God would not know who would turn and who wouldn’t. We are judged by our hearts not our outward work. God does not need a proving period to see if we will change. He already know all who will change and when. It’s called foreknowledge!

2. It diminishes Christ. If Christ died once and for all, why does God need a rapture?

3. Jesus preached that those who are blessed are those who do not see. Why would God give the world such evidence. It is Faith that saves us, not sight. If a million people leave the earth like Tim LaHaye fictionally writes, who wouldn’t believe? Everyone has heard about this concept. Who wouldn’t believe after such catastrophic events? Come on! The rapture makes no sense in line with all that Jesus taught and did!!! If it were true then out of love for others I would never evangelize anyone who has a transportation job. All pilots, train conductors, taxi drivers etc. need to be atheists, otherwise they may kill a non-Christian during the rapture. Are you beginning to see how ridiculous this thinking is when it is played out in reality?

4. It is the most unloving event I have ever heard of. If my God, tortures my loved ones with fear and agony after I am gone, that is a horrible punishing God. Rapture believers say the rapture is a great act of love in that he gives some a second chance. If this were true, again extremely unfair and prejudice to those left, and again subtracts from the redemptive work of Jesus already done to save the world. The rapture is appealing because it feeds the flesh/ego of those self righteous who want revenge on those people beneath them! It creates a hierarchy! I actually had a non-denominational tell me she does not sin any more. After a few minutes of questioning, she found out she did, and unfortunately never came back to learn about Grace. My guess is that she went to a church that told her she was without sin again. We call those churches’s theology, “Holiness Churches.” A new form of Pharisee-ism!

5. Dispensationalism: Dispensationalism is the belief that God rules differently at different times. This is called descriptive theology, not prescriptive. In other words, people looked at what God did and “reason” that the Bible looks like God ruled differently at different times. The Bible prescribes i.e. like a prescription, that God is the same. He does not change his mind, and is the first and the last! Secondly, each different rule of God is ushered in by the failure of the previous rule. Therefore, when Christ sets himself up as ruler, on a temple 7,392,000 feet high, his rule fails and that ushers in the last dispensation and the end comes according to the Rapture theology. Maybe it failed because no one can live above 18,000 feet! The rapture is a silly theology for the silly minded.

SCRIPTURE: I will begin by refuting the passages used by Rapture heretics, and then show the passages that refute the rapture, ending with the passages of truth about the end times. There is a day when Christ comes back, but that is all there is!

1. Luke 17:32-36 NIV Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left. This is not the entering of the tribulation. In the end, I will be taken and an atheist will be left behind to be consumed by fire. I am taken into the air to unite with the saints coming down from heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. Therefore, Luke 17 is not a rapture verse, but just a verse describing how we will be separated, sheep from goats, good from bad…

2. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)0 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. The rapture-ist’s say that this is the rapture. Although it is written to Philadelphia and all the Apostles experience a trial as did Philadelphia, they still seem to think that this means those who believe will not experience a trial. Again, this would be revenge by God and sparing us from trial. God did not promise that we would have no trials, if anything he “prescribes” that there will be trials. That is the mark of a Christian. So why spare anyone? This is inaccurate convoluted thinking to assume that this passage “prescribes” the rapture, as opposed to merely “describing” the events in Philadelphia and prescribing what’s going to happen to them!

3. Revelation 4:1 (NIV) After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” This is where they place the rapture in scripture. Unfortunately for them: Revelation 13:7 (NIV) He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. How did the saints get back on the earth in Chapter 13 if they were raptured? I know it’s the new saints and a second harvest of people Rev. 14:14-15. Then the end should come, but no, there is more left to the story. Our loving, caring God wants to torture the people some more, according to the rapture-ists. And if only the non-believers remain who will teach them? Well they say it is some of the Pastor’s who were not that good who also get called to be left behind and teach. So, I guess according to them I get left behind to teach . Wow! And we find this here in scripture??????

***That’s about all they have along with a much embellished story. Although at times they can piece details form the Old Testament to certain pieces of Revelation, they cannot make it all fit. They can’t explain Babylon, nor can they rectify the Gospels, New Testament and the Old Testament, hence the invention of dispensationalism to help. They basically shot an arrow and painted a target around it over the years.

Now let’s look at what Scripture does say!

1. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 (NIV) Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape

1A. The word quick and soon are the same word in Greek. Where Revelation is saying “soon” can also mean quickly as the rest of scripture agrees i.e. fast. John assumed that this would all take place soon, that’s why he wrote in haste.

1B. “They will not escape” There is no “left behind” to get a second chance.

2. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NIV) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Matthew 25:31 (NIV) “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

2A. God does not come quietly. The first rapture of people is silent according to the rapture-ists. Scripture does not support this. They hang much of their theology on the passage, so they can’t switch and say this is a last, last time and still use it as evidence for the first last time.

3. Luke 12:44-46 (NIV) I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. No second chance!

4. Acts 1:7 (NIV) He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. The words for time in Greek are Chronos and Kairon. Chronos is where we get chronological time and Kairon is a period in time. You are taking your Kairon to understand the Chronos of events. If Revelation is meant to be literal, then we will know the times and dates. We’ll know how much time they have to believe and makes God predictable during the Tribulation. Again, just not true.

5. Matthew 24:9 (NIV) “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. No one who believes will escape persecution as the rapture-ists suggest. The Apostles did not!

6. Hebrews 9:28 (NIV) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. No where does he mention giving them a second chance. It might be an important concept seeing how God wants all to be saved. He comes back and that’s it!

7. John 5:28-29 (NIV) “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. Again, that’s it. No second chance.

8. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV) 1Th 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left til the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. The end time is to encourage us, not scare us half to death. Just like the Catholic Church that tried to scare people into baptizing their babies through the Black Mass–Now it’s the rapture. Same old stuff. Same old strategy.

9. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NIV) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Why would God give Satan another chance to deceive his people, when he tells us that is second coming will destroy Satan’s work?

10. Matthew 25 1-13, 14-30 & 31-46 The door is shut, no second chance for anyone and those separated are going to hell in each case. Now, the Rapture-ists say that this is the second, second coming. The first was silent in which all the Christians were “raptured.” No where in all of scripture does it speak of this. NO WHERE!

11. Matthew 13:24-30, 40-42 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ” ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 ” ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ” “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again, no second chance for the weeds to correct themselves.

12. In God’s nature he gives us every opportunity to follow him. When the rich man went to hell and cried out for water, God said no. When he asked that his brothers be told, God said no. Our chance and God’s patience is here on earth now. Why would God give yet another chance to only those who were alive during the rapture and not to the billions who have died before? God has given me this response and his zeal. This is a false theology and all those who teach it are false teachers! Flee!

www.new2torah.com%2f2012%2f08%2frefuting-the-rapture%2f/RK=0/RS=qNHDCxyZmlvbuVQJhes1453QMLw-" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEViZa0k5VwR4ANz0nnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTE0dmMwMWlmBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDRkZYVUkyNV8xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1431257818/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.new2torah.com%2f2012%2f08%2frefuting-the-rapture%2f/RK=0/RS=qNHDCxyZmlvbuVQJhes1453QMLw-

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

Then why did you waste your time and mine posting it?

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

So you're a believer in replacement theology?

fiatlux

Have no idea what "replacement theology" is. Just respond to what I said, please.

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

You stated, “...The New Covenant is not a rebuke of the Jews as inept followers of scripture, miscreant children of God; it is a call for the world to take their place in that ancestry of a chosen people.”

I replied, “So you're a believer in replacement theology?”

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html#ixzz3Zpl9U4tq

NOW…
Turnabout is fair play. I provided a reply to your first comment, “Verses used to support the Rapture actually contradict it. In a full Gospel understanding of those supporting verses, it is the Christians that will be left behind. I will show how if this is contested but it is up to each Christian to fully explore the word, wherever it may lead.”

I humbly await your rebuttal.

fiatlux

I have no rebuttal; you just supported what I said. You need to re-read my post. Is this "replacement theory"? 'The Jews are our roots, we are but grafted on.' Or this that I wrote you seem to have overlooked, 'Jesus was a Jew! The polemic of Luke's Gospel, for example, is an example of the Church abandoning its roots in Judaism. Misreading Paul added fuel to that fire.'

Placing someone in a theory or label is not helpful in really hearing what they have to say. It condemns or approves without seeing or evidence.

mwdegutis Loc: Illinois

You stated, “...The New Covenant is not a rebuke of the Jews as inept followers of scripture, miscreant children of God; it is a call for the world to take their place in that ancestry of a chosen people.”

If that is not replacement theology, I don't know what is. Maybe you should do a little research.

fiatlux

Did you bother to read what Numeneyes said? I had a tiny piece of that in refutation of the Rapture that scholars accept as sufficient.