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Huh, Who’da Thunk?
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Apr 2, 2024 16:22:15   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
The author, KITDAFBS, is a retired SpecOps officer

Huh, Who’da Thunk?
2 April 2024 KITDAFBS

Well I learned something today. Hawaii is not covered by Article 5 of the NATO charter. That means if there was an attack on Hawaii — by say, the CCP or North Korea — the other NATO countries would not be bound to aid the US.

Seems a bit odd no? It turns out there is a reason for the lack of inclusion. It’s spelled out in Article 6 of the Charter.

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer
NATO none


That was why nobody but the US helped out the Brits when Argentina got a little froggy about the Falklands in 1982. Las Malvinas are not in the North Atlantic, not by a long shot. Neither is Hawaii.

A US State Department spokesperson confirmed that Hawaii is not covered by Article 5, but said Article 4, which says members will consult when “the territorial integrity, political independence or security” of any member is threatened, should cover any situation that could affect the 50th state. The spokesperson also said any treaty amendment to include Hawaii would be unlikely to gain consensus because other members have territories outside of the boundaries set in Article 5.

Consult, yeah. The fact is, the CCP leadership sees this as a potential wedge between the US and NATO. At least most of NATO, the Brits would jump in on our side if the PLA attacked Pearl Harbor or INDOPACOM HQ at Camp Smith. As an armchair strategist, an attack on Honolulu is a probable first step if the ChiComs decide to finally attack Taiwan.

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Apr 2, 2024 16:27:53   #
LogicallyRight Loc: Chicago
 
I didn't see in that where Georgia should have ever been considered for entry into NATO.

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Apr 2, 2024 16:35:00   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
LogicallyRight wrote:
I didn't see in that where Georgia should have ever been considered for entry into NATO.


Considering their very close proximity to Russia’s border, they should not have been based on historical agreements.

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Apr 2, 2024 21:47:07   #
NotMAGA Loc: Upstate NY - in a very red county
 
AuntiE wrote:
The author, KITDAFBS, is a retired SpecOps officer

Huh, Who’da Thunk?
2 April 2024 KITDAFBS

Well I learned something today. Hawaii is not covered by Article 5 of the NATO charter. That means if there was an attack on Hawaii — by say, the CCP or North Korea — the other NATO countries would not be bound to aid the US.

Seems a bit odd no? It turns out there is a reason for the lack of inclusion. It’s spelled out in Article 6 of the Charter.

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer
NATO none


That was why nobody but the US helped out the Brits when Argentina got a little froggy about the Falklands in 1982. Las Malvinas are not in the North Atlantic, not by a long shot. Neither is Hawaii.

A US State Department spokesperson confirmed that Hawaii is not covered by Article 5, but said Article 4, which says members will consult when “the territorial integrity, political independence or security” of any member is threatened, should cover any situation that could affect the 50th state. The spokesperson also said any treaty amendment to include Hawaii would be unlikely to gain consensus because other members have territories outside of the boundaries set in Article 5.

Consult, yeah. The fact is, the CCP leadership sees this as a potential wedge between the US and NATO. At least most of NATO, the Brits would jump in on our side if the PLA attacked Pearl Harbor or INDOPACOM HQ at Camp Smith. As an armchair strategist, an attack on Honolulu is a probable first step if the ChiComs decide to finally attack Taiwan.
b color=maroon The author, KITDAFBS, is a retire... (show quote)


Even though Hawaii is closest to N Korea and China, the bases there are presumably more prepared than in 1941. Forewarned is forearmed.

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Apr 2, 2024 21:58:24   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
NotMAGA wrote:
Even though Hawaii is closest to N Korea and China, the bases there are presumably more prepared than in 1941. Forewarned is forearmed.


One can hope. I do not know it is much more difficult to gain access to any of the bases than it is stateside. Every time, we have had to wait to have an escort even with clearances.

The only thing I would fear is desecration of the Arizona Memorial. The feeling that comes over you when you enter is indescribable. I have seen young children go quiet without a word from their parents.

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Apr 2, 2024 22:05:31   #
NotMAGA Loc: Upstate NY - in a very red county
 
AuntiE wrote:
One can hope. I do not know it is much more difficult to gain access to any of the bases than it is stateside. Every time, we have had to wait to have an escort even with clearances.

The only thing I would fear is desecration of the Arizona Memorial. The feeling that comes over you when you enter is indescribable. I have seen young children go quiet without a word from their parents.


I do hope to get there someday... My husband was stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station at Kaneohe Bay back in the mid 60's and says the same. I saw the last survivor from the Arizona just passed.

Subjectively speaking, I think that it's more difficult to be allowed on military bases now than ten years ago, so that helps.

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Apr 2, 2024 22:15:17   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
NotMAGA wrote:
I do hope to get there someday... My husband was stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station at Kaneohe Bay back in the mid 60's and says the same. I saw the last survivor from the Arizona just passed.

Subjectively speaking, I think that it's more difficult to be allowed on military bases now than ten years ago, so that helps.


I saw that. He can be interred at the Arizona. It did not say if his family was going to pursue that option.

It is more difficult. I have ceased doing a Costco trip if I know I have to be up at Ft. Meyer. I made that mistake once. You do not want to know.

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Apr 2, 2024 22:20:19   #
NotMAGA Loc: Upstate NY - in a very red county
 
AuntiE wrote:
I saw that. He can be interred at the Arizona. It did not say if his family was going to pursue that option.

It is more difficult. I have ceased doing a Costco trip if I know I have to be up at Ft. Meyer. I made that mistake once. You do not want to know.
I saw that. He can be interred at the Arizona. It ... (show quote)


Oh that definitely sounds like it would be an interesting story!

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Apr 2, 2024 22:32:35   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
NotMAGA wrote:
Oh that definitely sounds like it would be an interesting story!


Picture AuntiE in her black funeral attire pulling up to the gates at Ft. Meyer in her station wagon. Remember she went to Costco the day before and had not unloaded her paper goods and soap detergent, etc. Basically, the back of the wagon was full. The very young polite guard says; Ma’am, we’ll need to to pull over to the right and clear your vehicle for checking.” I pulled over, got out of said full station wagon, and started removing things. Half way through another guard came over, watched me, and finally asked what else was in there. I listed everything, they did the mirror thing and told me I could reload and go. They did suggest it may be more advantageous if I used the public entry through Arlington Cemetery. The issue is I find myself getting turned around trying to get to the Chapel, which is more directly aligned with the main gate.

On a separate note. Arlington Cemetery is another venue where one goes quiet. The hills of headstones is …no words can say the feeling.

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Apr 2, 2024 22:39:27   #
NotMAGA Loc: Upstate NY - in a very red county
 
AuntiE wrote:
Picture AuntiE in her black funeral attire pulling up to the gates at Ft. Meyer in her station wagon. Remember she went to Costco the day before and had not unloaded her paper goods and soap detergent, etc. Basically, the back of the wagon was full. The very young polite guard says; Ma’am, we’ll need to to pull over to the right and clear your vehicle for checking.” I pulled over, got out of said full station wagon, and started removing things. Half way through another guard came over, watched me, and finally asked what else was in there. I listed everything, they did the mirror thing and told me I could reload and go. They did suggest it may be more advantageous if I used the public entry through Arlington Cemetery. The issue is I find myself getting turned around trying to get to the Chapel, which is more directly aligned with the main gate.

On a separate note. Arlington Cemetery is another venue where one goes quiet. The hills of headstones is …no words can say the feeling.
Picture AuntiE in her black funeral attire pulling... (show quote)


Laughing about the Costco load/inspection, then remembering the trips we've made to Arlington. Row upon row upon row... And the Marine Corps Iwo Jima monument on the high hill... One of my favorite pictures is of my husband and our son standing on either side of it... My two Marines.

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Apr 2, 2024 22:56:28   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
NotMAGA wrote:
Laughing about the Costco load/inspection, then remembering the trips we've made to Arlington. Row upon row upon row... And the Marine Corps Iwo Jima monument on the high hill... One of my favorite pictures is of my husband and our son standing on either side of it... My two Marines.


Think black suit, heels, etc. Thankfully, I wear very very low heels. Can you imagine 4-5 inches heels doing that?

Marine Corps. birthday sees a tremendous number of Marines at that monument. That is as it should be!

When your son is not deployed, what is his home base?

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Apr 2, 2024 22:58:00   #
NotMAGA Loc: Upstate NY - in a very red county
 
AuntiE wrote:
Think black suit, heels, etc. Thankfully, I wear very very low heels. Can you imagine 4-5 inches heels doing that?

Marine Corps. birthday sees a tremendous number of Marines at that monument. That is as it should be!

When your son is not deployed, what is his home base?
Think black suit, heels, etc. Thankfully, I wear v... (show quote)


He was at Great Lakes. Not sure when he comes back where he will be yet.

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Apr 2, 2024 23:02:38   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
NotMAGA wrote:
He was at Great Lakes. Not sure when he comes back where he will be yet.


Probably not Great Lakes. My brain keeps saying Camp Pendleton for returning Marines. I have zero idea why I think that. Just discount it.

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Apr 2, 2024 23:07:46   #
NotMAGA Loc: Upstate NY - in a very red county
 
AuntiE wrote:
Probably not Great Lakes. My brain keeps saying Camp Pendleton for returning Marines. I have zero idea why I think that. Just discount it.


From your brain to God's ears!
He and DIL would love it. He was there for a year or two before they met.

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Apr 2, 2024 23:18:50   #
AuntiE Loc: 45th Least Free State
 
NotMAGA wrote:
From your brain to God's ears!
He and DIL would love it. He was there for a year or two before they met. Nice weather - usually. But the fires lately... Forgot about that. Kids are so small yet, might not be good for them.


Even with the fire issue, they have lived there before. Pendleton is big enough they could establish a good support network among other parents. Also, Pendleton may have established good protocols to deal with fire issues. They do not want their troops endangered at home, nor their families.

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