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Police Force vs. Police State
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Jan 8, 2015 12:17:34   #
CarolSeer2016
 
Basically, a Police Force protects law-abiding citizens; a Police State oppresses them.

Or even more accurately: A Police Force protects law-abiding citizens from the bad guys; In a Police State, government is/are the bad guys.

Jefferson and the founders didn't have a concept of a "police state". They did know, however, when government was becoming oppressive.

The question is:

When does a free state become a police state?

Possible, but not exhaustive, ideas:

1. When government is believed to know better how to run your life than you yourself do.

2. When citizens thing "government shapes character" (from James Q. Wilson)

3. When citizens, or other entities, become dependent on government largess.

Other ideas, posters?

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 12:31:11   #
bahmer
 
CarolSeer2016 wrote:
Basically, a Police Force protects law-abiding citizens; a Police State oppresses them.

Or even more accurately: A Police Force protects law-abiding citizens from the bad guys; In a Police State, government is/are the bad guys.

Jefferson and the founders didn't have a concept of a "police state". They did know, however, when government was becoming oppressive.

The question is:

When does a free state become a police state?

Possible, but not exhaustive, ideas:

1. When government is believed to know better how to run your life than you yourself do.

2. When citizens thing "government shapes character" (from James Q. Wilson)

3. When citizens, or other entities, become dependent on government largess.

Other ideas, posters?
Basically, a Police Force protects law-abiding cit... (show quote)


I think that you about have it covered here. No. 1 and 2 are it takes a village starting with government controlled education or indoctrination starting at preschool through college. Then Np. 3 welfare where to start with that as we are now on our fifth and sixth generation of welfare recipients and maybe even the seventh, who knows for sure.

Change v****g over to those that have skin in the game which are either working adults or business owners, also those that are retired and have worked all of their lives. In other words those that pay the taxes in this country or have paid taxes all of their lives should be allowed to v**e. Those receiving hand outs remain silent or get a job.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 12:33:09   #
CarolSeer2016
 
bahmer wrote:
I think that you about have it covered here. No. 1 and 2 are it takes a village starting with government controlled education or indoctrination starting at preschool through college. Then Np. 3 welfare where to start with that as we are now on our fifth and sixth generation of welfare recipients and maybe even the seventh, who knows for sure.

Change v****g over to those that have skin in the game which are either working adults or business owners, also those that are retired and have worked all of their lives. In other words those that pay the taxes in this country or have paid taxes all of their lives should be allowed to v**e. Those receiving hand outs remain silent or get a job.
I think that you about have it covered here. No. 1... (show quote)


It sounds undemocratic--to Liberals--to say it, but I think I agree with you. Our founders and anti-federalists felt the people could be easily misled.

Reply
 
 
Jan 8, 2015 12:35:37   #
LAPhil Loc: Los Angeles, CA
 
bahmer wrote:
Change v****g over to those that have skin in the game which are either working adults or business owners, also those that are retired and have worked all of their lives. In other words those that pay the taxes in this country or have paid taxes all of their lives should be allowed to v**e. Those receiving hand outs remain silent or get a job.
I used to think that would be unconstitutional and I was surprised to discover that it's actually not. Still, the idea will never fly.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 12:52:33   #
missinglink Loc: Tralfamadore
 
To bad it wouldn't fly while the slim majority still exists in those departments. Very soon it won't be possible. I've got that sinking feeling.

LAPhil wrote:
I used to think that would be unconstitutional and I was surprised to discover that it's actually not. Still, the idea will never fly.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 12:57:19   #
CarolSeer2016
 
bahmer wrote:
I think that you about have it covered here. No. 1 and 2 are it takes a village starting with government controlled education or indoctrination starting at preschool through college. Then Np. 3 welfare where to start with that as we are now on our fifth and sixth generation of welfare recipients and maybe even the seventh, who knows for sure.

Change v****g over to those that have skin in the game which are either working adults or business owners, also those that are retired and have worked all of their lives. In other words those that pay the taxes in this country or have paid taxes all of their lives should be allowed to v**e. Those receiving hand outs remain silent or get a job.
I think that you about have it covered here. No. 1... (show quote)


I t***hfully believe 18-19-20 year old's should not be allowed to v**e. They have yet to gain the experience that would enable them to properly assess past and present, and their explications/implications for the future. Plus, they have all that juvenile "idealism" that makes them think, that not only does the world need changing, but THEY are the ones to do it.

Well, of course, the world can always need a little changing, but leave it to minors and what do you get? L*****t-Liberal-Socialist-Democratic-Progressive claptrap.

But then, I think most women should not be allowed to v**e. Sometimes their priorities get in the way of their ability to see consequences.--Mostly that would be the feminists.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 13:10:06   #
moldyoldy
 
CarolSeer2016 wrote:
I t***hfully believe 18-19-20 year old's should not be allowed to v**e. They have yet to gain the experience that would enable them to properly assess past and present, and their explications/implications for the future. Plus, they have all that juvenile "idealism" that makes them think, that not only does the world need changing, but THEY are the ones to do it.

Well, of course, the world can always need a little changing, but leave it to minors and what do you get? L*****t-Liberal-Socialist-Democratic-Progressive claptrap.

But then, I think most women should not be allowed to v**e. Sometimes their priorities get in the way of their ability to see consequences.--Mostly that would be the feminists.
I t***hfully believe 18-19-20 year old's should no... (show quote)



The surprising ages of the Founding Fathers on July 4, 1776  AUG 13 2013

For the Journal of the American Revolution, Todd Andrlik compiled a list of the ages of the key participants in the Revolutionary War as of July 4, 1776. Many of them were surprisingly young:

Marquis de Lafayette, 18
James Monroe, 18
Gilbert Stuart, 20
Aaron Burr, 20
Alexander Hamilton, 21
Betsy Ross, 24
James Madison, 25

This is kind of blowing my mind...because of the compression of history, I'd always assumed all these people were around the same age. But in thinking about it, all startups need young people...Hamilton, Lafayette, and Burr were perhaps the Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg of the War. Some more ages, just for reference:

Thomas Jefferson, 33
John Adams, 40
Paul Revere, 41
George Washington, 44
Samuel Adams, 53
I was 17 when I went into the military, during the Vietnam war. Could not v**e, could not drink, but I could die.

Reply
 
 
Jan 8, 2015 13:14:10   #
CarolSeer2016
 
moldyoldy wrote:
The surprising ages of the Founding Fathers on July 4, 1776  AUG 13 2013

For the Journal of the American Revolution, Todd Andrlik compiled a list of the ages of the key participants in the Revolutionary War as of July 4, 1776. Many of them were surprisingly young:

Marquis de Lafayette, 18
James Monroe, 18
Gilbert Stuart, 20
Aaron Burr, 20
Alexander Hamilton, 21
Betsy Ross, 24
James Madison, 25

This is kind of blowing my mind...because of the compression of history, I'd always assumed all these people were around the same age. But in thinking about it, all startups need young people...Hamilton, Lafayette, and Burr were perhaps the Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg of the War. Some more ages, just for reference:

Thomas Jefferson, 33
John Adams, 40
Paul Revere, 41
George Washington, 44
Samuel Adams, 53
I was 17 when I went into the military, during the Vietnam war. Could not v**e, could not drink, but I could die.
The surprising ages of the Founding Fathers on Jul... (show quote)


I didn't say they couldn't fight. I said minors have not the experience to properly assess past and present, etc.

I didn't know Madison was a soldier. But he was certainly an unusually brilliant historian and logician, even at 25. Who'da known?

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 13:22:21   #
CarolSeer2016
 
moldyoldy wrote:
The surprising ages of the Founding Fathers on July 4, 1776  AUG 13 2013

For the Journal of the American Revolution, Todd Andrlik compiled a list of the ages of the key participants in the Revolutionary War as of July 4, 1776. Many of them were surprisingly young:

Marquis de Lafayette, 18
James Monroe, 18
Gilbert Stuart, 20
Aaron Burr, 20
Alexander Hamilton, 21
Betsy Ross, 24
James Madison, 25

This is kind of blowing my mind...because of the compression of history, I'd always assumed all these people were around the same age. But in thinking about it, all startups need young people...Hamilton, Lafayette, and Burr were perhaps the Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg of the War. Some more ages, just for reference:

Thomas Jefferson, 33
John Adams, 40
Paul Revere, 41
George Washington, 44
Samuel Adams, 53
I was 17 when I went into the military, during the Vietnam war. Could not v**e, could not drink, but I could die.
The surprising ages of the Founding Fathers on Jul... (show quote)


Well, it doesn't take wisdom to fight. It does take wisdom to govern oneself.

But here's an interesting observation:

The bane of the human race is the tendency of mankind to go to one or the other extreme, like a pendulum.

It's unfortunate, but true, when youngsters participate in the v****g process this extremist tendency snowballs and accelerates, so that before our "mystic organism" is aware of it, disaster has struck.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 13:23:45   #
xdarren
 
CarolSeer2016 wrote:
I t***hfully believe 18-19-20 year old's should not be allowed to v**e. They have yet to gain the experience that would enable them to properly assess past and present, and their explications/implications for the future. Plus, they have all that juvenile "idealism" that makes them think, that not only does the world need changing, but THEY are the ones to do it.

Well, of course, the world can always need a little changing, but leave it to minors and what do you get? L*****t-Liberal-Socialist-Democratic-Progressive claptrap.

But then, I think most women should not be allowed to v**e. Sometimes their priorities get in the way of their ability to see consequences.--Mostly that would be the feminists.
I t***hfully believe 18-19-20 year old's should no... (show quote)


I would change "priorities"to emotions. Most women think with their emotions. Priorities works in the sentence, but it is my humble opinion that it is emotions that rules when it comes to politics.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 13:29:00   #
CarolSeer2016
 
xdarren wrote:
I would change "priorities"to emotions. Most women think with their emotions. Priorities works in the sentence, but it is my humble opinion that it is emotions that rules when it comes to politics.


I think women's emotions derive from different priorities than men's. A man has different drives, needs, instincts. An instinct to provide stability for the home, the clan, the tribe, the state. A women's first instinct is to provide caring for others, including their feelings. So she becomes unaware that that same caring can have disastrous consequences. A door sort of just closes in her mind.

Reply
 
 
Jan 8, 2015 13:29:22   #
alex Loc: michigan now imperial beach californa
 
moldyoldy wrote:
The surprising ages of the Founding Fathers on July 4, 1776  AUG 13 2013

For the Journal of the American Revolution, Todd Andrlik compiled a list of the ages of the key participants in the Revolutionary War as of July 4, 1776. Many of them were surprisingly young:

Marquis de Lafayette, 18
James Monroe, 18
Gilbert Stuart, 20
Aaron Burr, 20
Alexander Hamilton, 21
Betsy Ross, 24
James Madison, 25

This is kind of blowing my mind...because of the compression of history, I'd always assumed all these people were around the same age. But in thinking about it, all startups need young people...Hamilton, Lafayette, and Burr were perhaps the Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg of the War. Some more ages, just for reference:

Thomas Jefferson, 33
John Adams, 40
Paul Revere, 41
George Washington, 44
Samuel Adams, 53
I was 17 when I went into the military, during the Vietnam war. Could not v**e, could not drink, but I could die.
The surprising ages of the Founding Fathers on Jul... (show quote)


if you went into the military at 17 you were not drafted you enlisted on your own with your parents consent

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 13:32:00   #
CarolSeer2016
 
CarolSeer2016 wrote:
I think women's emotions derive from different priorities than men's. A man has different drives, needs, instincts. An instinct to provide stability for the home, the clan, the tribe, the state. A women's first instinct is to provide caring for others, including their feelings. So she becomes unaware that that same caring can have disastrous consequences. A door sort of just closes in her mind.


Having had the same thing happen to me on occasion. I've learned to overcome that tendency. A sort of tough love.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 13:37:48   #
cold iron Loc: White House
 
bahmer wrote:
I think that you about have it covered here. No. 1 and 2 are it takes a village starting with government controlled education or indoctrination starting at preschool through college. Then Np. 3 welfare where to start with that as we are now on our fifth and sixth generation of welfare recipients and maybe even the seventh, who knows for sure.

Change v****g over to those that have skin in the game which are either working adults or business owners, also those that are retired and have worked all of their lives. In other words those that pay the taxes in this country or have paid taxes all of their lives should be allowed to v**e. Those receiving hand outs remain silent or get a job.
I think that you about have it covered here. No. 1... (show quote)



:thumbup: :thumbup:
Once it was so, but the left needs all the slackers and keeps them by buying stuff for them.

Reply
Jan 8, 2015 13:41:08   #
missinglink Loc: Tralfamadore
 
Good analogy. Well stated.

CarolSeer2016 wrote:
Well, it doesn't take wisdom to fight. It does take wisdom to govern oneself.

But here's an interesting observation:

The bane of the human race is the tendency of mankind to go to one or the other extreme, like a pendulum.

It's unfortunate, but true, when youngsters participate in the v****g process this extremist tendency snowballs and accelerates, so that before our "mystic organism" is aware of it, disaster has struck.

Reply
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