Eternal Damnation in a Lake of Fire?
Nov 28, 2022 23:16:54 #
Blade, Personally, I cannot reject Jesus' own words in Matthew 25:41, 46:
"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
If the punishment of the "cursed" is not eternal, can the life of the "righteous" be eternal, as Jesus does not differentiate in the aspect of length of time?
Also, I'm interested in your opinion of the following article written in 2008 by one of my longtime favorite Christian apologists, Dave Hunt, who went home to be with the Lord in 2013. He had another perspective on the punishment of the unsaved, - eternal, but not physical.
Dave Hunt Addresses the 'Fire of Hell' Controversy | thebereancall.org
April 25, 2008
"My April article has evoked an amazing response. A number of our readers and supporters are suggesting that I do not believe in a real hell with real fire because I say the fire is not physical. Surely "physical" cannot be the only criterion of "real," or one would likewise deny that God is real, that the Holy Spirit is real, that angels and demons and Satan are real. Such would indeed be real heresy.
As for why I don't believe the flames of hell are physical, I have given many sound biblical reasons for that conviction. This is a belief that I have not tried to hide but have declared in many writings and talks.
It is astonishing to me that anyone would imagine that in order for the flames of hell to be "real" they must be physical. Then the human soul and spirit are not real. Nor are justice and truth and all concepts such as morals and righteousness real, because they are not physical. Was the water "real" that Christ offered to those who would come unto Him and drink (John:7:37)? "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."
It certainly was not physical! Was it therefore unreal? It was and is in fact more real than physical water.
One dear brother, whose newsletter I have long appreciated, quickly sent out an email titled: "DAVE HUNT DENIES THE FIRE OF HELL." In his article he repeats, "Dave Hunt...is boldly denying the fire of hell." This is an accusation that greatly grieves me. I most certainly do not "deny the fire of hell." In fact, I corresponded with this brother years ago on this subject and thought we agreed.
One might just as well headline another article,
"Dave Hunt Denies the Reality of the Living Water Christ Gives to Those Who Come to Him by Faith! Hunt Dares To Say that It Isn't Physical!"
One could go on to say,
"Dave Hunt Declares that the 'Rivers of Living Water' that Jesus Said Would Flow Out of the Belly of those Who Believe on Him Are Not Physical, and He Even Denies that Jesus Meant Our Physical Bellies!"
Why do I introduce water into this discussion? I do so because water is so often used by Christ to illustrate the spiritual truths we are considering. Thirst is an important ingredient of hell. Is it a physical thirst for physical water, or something even more painful and specifically related to the spiritual thirst to which Christ so often referred and which He claimed to quench for those who would believe on Him?
The rich man in hell was "tormented in this flame." He begged Abraham to send Lazarus to "dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue..." (Luke:16:23-25)
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Were the flames in hell and the thirst that tormented the rich man real? Certainly. Were they physical? How could that be the case? Only the rich man's soul and spirit were in hell; his dead body was in the grave. He had no tongue in hell. Could physical flames affect soul and spirit, and could soul and spirit have physical thirst?
Did the rich man in hell need physical water? It would not have done his soul and spirit any good. The unbearable thirst that tormented him was because at the heart of all of his sin was his rejection of the water of life that Christ offered. He would suffer eternally from the painful guilt of that rejection and the weight of his sins.
Another brother repeatedly refers to physical flames and physical fire as essential if the fires of hell are "real." On that basis, and on that basis alone, he declares that I don't believe in a real hell or real fire or real flames. He gives no other definition of "real" except "physical." Using that criterion, how could he believe that God the Father, the Holy Spirit, or his own soul and spirit are real?
I have given many reasons why the flames in the lake of fire, though real, could not be physical: surely "the devil and his angels" do not have physical bodies, yet the lake of fire was prepared for them (Matthew:25:41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels":
Physical flames cannot (as Catholics believe will happen in "purgatory") morally and spiritually affect those who are tortured by them. This would reduce hell to unbearable physical torment that could no better represent the execution of God's justice upon sinners than could the physical mistreatment of Christ by Roman soldiers pay the penalty for the sins of the world as The Passion movie heretically implies.
How could physical torment distinguish between the sins of a Hitler and those of a petty thief? How could physical pain, no matter how excruciating, contribute to the tormenting agony of soul and spirit and conscience laid bare before the wrath of a Holy God against sin? Would the soul and spirit, or the flesh, cry out in agony from physical fire?
May I bring to bear further reason on this subject?
God says, "Come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah:1:18). "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
and Peter says, "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you." (1 Peter:3:15) "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear":
" Paul continually reasoned from the Scriptures: Acts:17:2: "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,"18:4, 19, etc.
Rebuking me for reasoning from Scripture, one of the above critics declares, "It's not up to us to try to figure out how these things work. We can be assured that God knows how to make it work." In other words, "Never mind that physical fire could only inflict physical pain that cannot touch soul and spirit; we're not supposed to reason about Scripture. It says 'fire' so it's got to be physical or it wouldn't be real; so God must make that work no matter how unreasonable it is."
Let us continue to reason.
Was the water real that Jesus offered to the woman at the well (John:4:14)? "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Of course, or His offer would have been a fraud. Was the water physical? No. Then, say some, it couldn't have been real. Have they not made a grave mistake?
Paul says, "Fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is" (1 Corinthians:3:13) "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
Please tell me how physical fire could reveal "what sort" of works we have done? Isn't that a moral judgment, weighing motives as well as deeds? Does not this fire, which cannot be physical yet is real, give us further insight into the nature of the fires of hell?
No physical body could survive the lake of fire for a moment. It would instantly be consumed -- so God would have to continually, moment by moment, reconstitute the physical bodies so He could continue to torment the damned. As I pointed out in the article, this is what Muslims believe about their hell and Catholics about purgatory. Neither belief is biblical. What conviction of conscience would be effected through tormenting physical bodies in physical flames?
"But what about the burning bush that was not consumed? If God can keep physical fire from consuming a bush, surely He could keep it from consuming a physical body in the lake of fire." Of course He could, but what would be the point? Why would God choose to use physical fire to torment the damned even though it didn't consume them? Shouldn't they instead be tormented by the flaming fire of an overwhelming sense of the exceeding sinfulness of the sins they have committed (Romans:7:13)? "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
And the horror of what it means to rebel against the only true God, Creator of heaven and earth? Wouldn't this burning of the conscience be far worse than burning in physical flames?
Those who are "cast into the lake of fire" have just been judged at the "great white throne...according to their works" (Revelation:20:11-12).
[11] " And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
They will for eternity mourn the folly of their irrevocable decision. Imagine the pain of such a fire burning in the soul of one in the lake of fire who has in God's presence suddenly met with the full realization of one's eternal state, with the "blood" of Jesus on one's "hands." Would not the burning pain and anguish these souls and spirits will suffer be far worse than physical flames could inflict upon physical bodies?
Finally, physical torment could not affect the conscience or effect any understanding of the horror of sin and the justice of the punishment God is meting out upon sinners. Excruciating physical torment would surely distract the conscience instead of assist in the conviction just burned into it at the great white throne.
[12] "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. "
They must be terrified by the judgment they know they deserve for the sins with which they have been confronted by the One on the throne "from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away." Every self-justifying excuse has been stripped away, leaving the stark reality of the extreme wickedness of their sin. They will be forever tormented by a conscience that can no longer hide from God or justify itself, and by an eternally burning thirst for the Living Water Christ offered, and which they despised.
I understand the strength of the tradition that the flames of hell must be physical fire torturing bodies. In my opinion, that idea trivializes God's just punishment, has led to much misunderstanding, and instead of glorifying God for His uncompromising justice, breeds bewilderment, resentment, and even hatred of the God whom they now view as their tormentor instead of their just judge.
With all due respect to my critics, I request that they give the above a fair hearing."
Dave Hunt 2008
Dave Hunt was an American Christian apologist, speaker, radio commentator and author. He was in full-time ministry for forty years, from 1973 until his death at the age of 87 on April 5, 2013.
"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
If the punishment of the "cursed" is not eternal, can the life of the "righteous" be eternal, as Jesus does not differentiate in the aspect of length of time?
Also, I'm interested in your opinion of the following article written in 2008 by one of my longtime favorite Christian apologists, Dave Hunt, who went home to be with the Lord in 2013. He had another perspective on the punishment of the unsaved, - eternal, but not physical.
Dave Hunt Addresses the 'Fire of Hell' Controversy | thebereancall.org
April 25, 2008
"My April article has evoked an amazing response. A number of our readers and supporters are suggesting that I do not believe in a real hell with real fire because I say the fire is not physical. Surely "physical" cannot be the only criterion of "real," or one would likewise deny that God is real, that the Holy Spirit is real, that angels and demons and Satan are real. Such would indeed be real heresy.
As for why I don't believe the flames of hell are physical, I have given many sound biblical reasons for that conviction. This is a belief that I have not tried to hide but have declared in many writings and talks.
It is astonishing to me that anyone would imagine that in order for the flames of hell to be "real" they must be physical. Then the human soul and spirit are not real. Nor are justice and truth and all concepts such as morals and righteousness real, because they are not physical. Was the water "real" that Christ offered to those who would come unto Him and drink (John:7:37)? "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."
It certainly was not physical! Was it therefore unreal? It was and is in fact more real than physical water.
One dear brother, whose newsletter I have long appreciated, quickly sent out an email titled: "DAVE HUNT DENIES THE FIRE OF HELL." In his article he repeats, "Dave Hunt...is boldly denying the fire of hell." This is an accusation that greatly grieves me. I most certainly do not "deny the fire of hell." In fact, I corresponded with this brother years ago on this subject and thought we agreed.
One might just as well headline another article,
"Dave Hunt Denies the Reality of the Living Water Christ Gives to Those Who Come to Him by Faith! Hunt Dares To Say that It Isn't Physical!"
One could go on to say,
"Dave Hunt Declares that the 'Rivers of Living Water' that Jesus Said Would Flow Out of the Belly of those Who Believe on Him Are Not Physical, and He Even Denies that Jesus Meant Our Physical Bellies!"
Why do I introduce water into this discussion? I do so because water is so often used by Christ to illustrate the spiritual truths we are considering. Thirst is an important ingredient of hell. Is it a physical thirst for physical water, or something even more painful and specifically related to the spiritual thirst to which Christ so often referred and which He claimed to quench for those who would believe on Him?
The rich man in hell was "tormented in this flame." He begged Abraham to send Lazarus to "dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue..." (Luke:16:23-25)
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Were the flames in hell and the thirst that tormented the rich man real? Certainly. Were they physical? How could that be the case? Only the rich man's soul and spirit were in hell; his dead body was in the grave. He had no tongue in hell. Could physical flames affect soul and spirit, and could soul and spirit have physical thirst?
Did the rich man in hell need physical water? It would not have done his soul and spirit any good. The unbearable thirst that tormented him was because at the heart of all of his sin was his rejection of the water of life that Christ offered. He would suffer eternally from the painful guilt of that rejection and the weight of his sins.
Another brother repeatedly refers to physical flames and physical fire as essential if the fires of hell are "real." On that basis, and on that basis alone, he declares that I don't believe in a real hell or real fire or real flames. He gives no other definition of "real" except "physical." Using that criterion, how could he believe that God the Father, the Holy Spirit, or his own soul and spirit are real?
I have given many reasons why the flames in the lake of fire, though real, could not be physical: surely "the devil and his angels" do not have physical bodies, yet the lake of fire was prepared for them (Matthew:25:41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels":
Physical flames cannot (as Catholics believe will happen in "purgatory") morally and spiritually affect those who are tortured by them. This would reduce hell to unbearable physical torment that could no better represent the execution of God's justice upon sinners than could the physical mistreatment of Christ by Roman soldiers pay the penalty for the sins of the world as The Passion movie heretically implies.
How could physical torment distinguish between the sins of a Hitler and those of a petty thief? How could physical pain, no matter how excruciating, contribute to the tormenting agony of soul and spirit and conscience laid bare before the wrath of a Holy God against sin? Would the soul and spirit, or the flesh, cry out in agony from physical fire?
May I bring to bear further reason on this subject?
God says, "Come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah:1:18). "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
and Peter says, "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you." (1 Peter:3:15) "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear":
" Paul continually reasoned from the Scriptures: Acts:17:2: "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,"18:4, 19, etc.
Rebuking me for reasoning from Scripture, one of the above critics declares, "It's not up to us to try to figure out how these things work. We can be assured that God knows how to make it work." In other words, "Never mind that physical fire could only inflict physical pain that cannot touch soul and spirit; we're not supposed to reason about Scripture. It says 'fire' so it's got to be physical or it wouldn't be real; so God must make that work no matter how unreasonable it is."
Let us continue to reason.
Was the water real that Jesus offered to the woman at the well (John:4:14)? "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Of course, or His offer would have been a fraud. Was the water physical? No. Then, say some, it couldn't have been real. Have they not made a grave mistake?
Paul says, "Fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is" (1 Corinthians:3:13) "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
Please tell me how physical fire could reveal "what sort" of works we have done? Isn't that a moral judgment, weighing motives as well as deeds? Does not this fire, which cannot be physical yet is real, give us further insight into the nature of the fires of hell?
No physical body could survive the lake of fire for a moment. It would instantly be consumed -- so God would have to continually, moment by moment, reconstitute the physical bodies so He could continue to torment the damned. As I pointed out in the article, this is what Muslims believe about their hell and Catholics about purgatory. Neither belief is biblical. What conviction of conscience would be effected through tormenting physical bodies in physical flames?
"But what about the burning bush that was not consumed? If God can keep physical fire from consuming a bush, surely He could keep it from consuming a physical body in the lake of fire." Of course He could, but what would be the point? Why would God choose to use physical fire to torment the damned even though it didn't consume them? Shouldn't they instead be tormented by the flaming fire of an overwhelming sense of the exceeding sinfulness of the sins they have committed (Romans:7:13)? "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
And the horror of what it means to rebel against the only true God, Creator of heaven and earth? Wouldn't this burning of the conscience be far worse than burning in physical flames?
Those who are "cast into the lake of fire" have just been judged at the "great white throne...according to their works" (Revelation:20:11-12).
[11] " And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
They will for eternity mourn the folly of their irrevocable decision. Imagine the pain of such a fire burning in the soul of one in the lake of fire who has in God's presence suddenly met with the full realization of one's eternal state, with the "blood" of Jesus on one's "hands." Would not the burning pain and anguish these souls and spirits will suffer be far worse than physical flames could inflict upon physical bodies?
Finally, physical torment could not affect the conscience or effect any understanding of the horror of sin and the justice of the punishment God is meting out upon sinners. Excruciating physical torment would surely distract the conscience instead of assist in the conviction just burned into it at the great white throne.
[12] "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. "
They must be terrified by the judgment they know they deserve for the sins with which they have been confronted by the One on the throne "from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away." Every self-justifying excuse has been stripped away, leaving the stark reality of the extreme wickedness of their sin. They will be forever tormented by a conscience that can no longer hide from God or justify itself, and by an eternally burning thirst for the Living Water Christ offered, and which they despised.
I understand the strength of the tradition that the flames of hell must be physical fire torturing bodies. In my opinion, that idea trivializes God's just punishment, has led to much misunderstanding, and instead of glorifying God for His uncompromising justice, breeds bewilderment, resentment, and even hatred of the God whom they now view as their tormentor instead of their just judge.
With all due respect to my critics, I request that they give the above a fair hearing."
Dave Hunt 2008
Dave Hunt was an American Christian apologist, speaker, radio commentator and author. He was in full-time ministry for forty years, from 1973 until his death at the age of 87 on April 5, 2013.
Blade_Runner wrote:
I am not a universalist, not by any stretch. br b... (show quote)
Jan 10, 2023 14:29:19 #
Alan Finch wrote:
Below, I thank God for sending me these Christians... (show quote)
Beware of placing a stumbling block before a “brother”.
Jan 10, 2023 14:33:55 #
Zemirah wrote:
Blade, Personally, I cannot reject Jesus' own word... (show quote)
I never knew Dave but I’ve met his buddy Ken and he’s wonderful.
Jan 13, 2023 01:55:09 #
Zemirah wrote:
Blade, Personally, I cannot reject Jesus' own word... (show quote)
There’s also the concept of free will. God gave us a choice. Belief or unbelief.
In order for there to be belief there has to be the option of unbelief.
Choosing to believe results in life eternal, with God, choosing unbelief results in eternity in the lake of fire, separated from God.
As in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Where there is no respite, ever.
Jan 13, 2023 06:42:42 #
Marty 2020 wrote:
There’s also the concept of free will. God gave us a choice. Belief or unbelief.
In order for there to be belief there has to be the option of unbelief.
Choosing to believe results in life eternal, with God, choosing unbelief results in eternity in the lake of fire, separated from God.
As in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Where there is no respite, ever.
In order for there to be belief there has to be the option of unbelief.
Choosing to believe results in life eternal, with God, choosing unbelief results in eternity in the lake of fire, separated from God.
As in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Where there is no respite, ever.
Thank you, Marty,
You articulated that much better than I could.
Jan 13, 2023 07:18:12 #
Marty 2020 wrote:
I never knew Dave but I’ve met his buddy Ken and he’s wonderful.
I met Dave Hunt when he spoke at a local church years ago. He has that solid background so many of God's chosen messengers seem to share, He was a Mathematics teacher before he became an Evangelist, Teacher, Author.
His books are excellent resources for Christian Apologetics, well researched, well documented.
A Woman Rides the Beast
What Love is This?
The Seduction of Christianity
Beyond Seduction
America: The Sorcerer's New Apprentice
Whatever Happened to Heaven?
Defense of the Faith
Occult Invasion
A Cup of Trembling
Peace, Prosperity, and the coming Holocaust
The God Makers
The Cult Explosion
Judgment Day!
Jan 13, 2023 09:57:29 #
Zemirah wrote:
Thank you, Marty,
You articulated that much better than I could.
You articulated that much better than I could.
I doubt that 🤔
Jan 13, 2023 09:59:41 #
Zemirah wrote:
I met Dave Hunt when he spoke at a local church ye... (show quote)
Yeah, A woman rides the beast, is a remarkably easy to understand book. Decisively chastising the Catholic Church.
Jan 13, 2023 10:22:47 #
Marty 2020 wrote:
Yeah, A woman rides the beast, is a remarkably easy to understand book. Decisively chastising the Catholic Church.
Yes, Marty, and A Cup of Trembling makes it clear to the Palestinians that the Jews permanently possess Israel.
What Love is This? explains the difference between the Bible and the teaching of John Calvin.
The God Makers explains the occultic beliefs of Mormonism's Joseph Smith.
Some of those books I've had since the early 1980's.
Jan 13, 2023 12:28:30 #
Zemirah wrote:
Yes, Marty, and A Cup of Trembling makes it clear to the Palestinians that the Jews permanently possess Israel.
What Love is This? explains the difference between the Bible and the teaching of John Calvin.
The God Makers explains the occultic beliefs of Mormonism's Joseph Smith.
Some of those books I've had since the early 1980's.
What Love is This? explains the difference between the Bible and the teaching of John Calvin.
The God Makers explains the occultic beliefs of Mormonism's Joseph Smith.
Some of those books I've had since the early 1980's.
Very wise man, almost prophetic, at least a blessed teacher.
Feb 3, 2023 18:22:50 #
Alan Finch wrote:
Below, I thank God for sending me these Christians... (show quote)
Puff yourself up much?
Sep 4, 2023 22:32:44 #
Alan Finch wrote:
I have spent several years in putting together a 3... (show quote)
Do you still have the attitude that you are smarter than everyone else?
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