One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main
The Procedure
Page <prev 2 of 2
Nov 8, 2022 04:24:18   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
The teaching of Purgatory is not so ancient as you might think. Jesus Christ, the prophets, the disciples and the apostles knew nothing of it.

My natural inclination, when studying the teaching of anything that contradicts or twists the meaning of the Bible, whether a cult, any of the world religions, or an aberrate offshoot, is to examine their own literature.

The official "Catholic Encyclopedia," 1987 printing, explanation of the RC teaching of "purgatory" consists of these paragraphs on page 502:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven and appear in the presence of the beatific vision. The purpose of purgatory is to cleanse one of imperfections, venial sins, and faults, and to remit or do away with the temporal punishment due to mortal sins that have been forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance.

"It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward. (For an account of one making propitiation for the dead refer to 2 Mc. 12:39:46.)
"This state is not described in the teaching of the church but its truth is a truth of faith defined by the Council of Trent (held between 1545 and 1563, Sess. 25). Purgatory will last only until the general judgement. (Cf. Holy Souls.)

"It must be understood that purgatory in an eschatological idea. Thus, its importance is its formal theological significance, and not its factual existence (cf. Lk. 16:19-31). The final testing of one's faith is not a "punishment" but one of response (1 Cor. 3:12-23). The center of the church's teaching concerning purgatory as stated in the documents of the Council of Lyons is one of penance: "Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for (sins) committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorial or purifying punishments..." (Denzinger, 464).

"To this is added the Christian teaching that such "purgatorial punishments" may be relieved by the offerings of the living faithful, such as Masses, prayers, alms, and other acts of piety and devotion. Such prayers are also considered to be prayers for the parousia (Rv. 22:17). See Communion of Saints)."

These two sentences from the above mess make it clear that the doctrine of "purgatory" is a man made doctrine that mocks God.

1) "This state is not described in the teaching of the church but its truth is a truth of faith defined by the Council of Trent (Sess. 25)."
2) "Thus, its importance is its formal theological significance, and not its factual existence (cf. Lk. 16:19-31)."


In the concluding verses 27-31 of Luke 16, Jesus makes it clear that after death is too late to be reconciled to God. It must be done while alive upon this earth. There is nothing in Catholic teaching about purgatory that can force it into alignment with the Holy Scriptures.

In Colossians 1:24 (one of the Scriptures on which Roman Catholicism has attempted to hang Purgatory's hat) Paul writes, “Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His body, which is the church.” God's Word is very clear that Christ’s death was the fully sufficient payment for our sin, so Paul is not speaking of anything lacking or deficient in the sufferings that Christ endured in which He fully atoned for the sins of the world.

Rather, Paul is saying that his (Paul’s) suffering for Christ’s sake for Christ's body of believers, His fledgling church congregation, was still lacking, but that Paul was not yet conformed to the Savior in his sufferings. Various Bible translations from the original Greek bring this out more clearly: “I am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am participating in the sufferings of Christ that continue for His body, the church” (NLT); and “Now I rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf. And with my own body I supplement whatever is lacking [on our part] of Christ’s afflictions, on behalf of His body, which is the church” (AMP).

Please Note that 1) Paul's suffering is for the universal believers that comprise the body of Christ, and 2) that the lack is on Paul’s part, not on Christ’s.

It is indeed "God's wish that no man should perish." (2nd Peter 3:9)

I appreciate your effort, Roamin,' but there is no "there" there regarding the existence of purgatory.

Paul said to Christian believers: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Roamin' Catholic wrote:
In Collosians 1:24 St. Paul implies that the only thing lacking in Christ's suffering is his participation in it.

And another facet of this discussion is how does our particular judgement and final judgement fit into all this?

Anyway, if I am wrong to lean towards the ancient Judeo-Catholic view on what awaits us at the moment of death I trust in Jesus to take me, forgive me and correct me. No harm done. But if I am right I joyfully will endure the purgation I need to enter the Eternal Kingdom of Heaven.

Thank you Parky and Z for pursuing this fascinating topic. I hope we will all meet in Heaven!
In Collosians 1:24 St. Paul implies that the only ... (show quote)

Reply
Nov 8, 2022 08:25:16   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
Zemirah wrote:
The teaching of Purgatory is not so ancient as you might think. Jesus Christ, the prophets, the disciples and the apostles knew nothing of it.

My natural inclination, when studying the teaching of anything that contradicts or twists the meaning of the Bible, whether a cult, any of the world religions, or an aberrate offshoot, is to examine their own literature.

The official "Catholic Encyclopedia," 1987 printing, explanation of the RC teaching of "purgatory" consists of these paragraphs on page 502:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven and appear in the presence of the beatific vision. The purpose of purgatory is to cleanse one of imperfections, venial sins, and faults, and to remit or do away with the temporal punishment due to mortal sins that have been forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance.

"It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward. (For an account of one making propitiation for the dead refer to 2 Mc. 12:39:46.)
"This state is not described in the teaching of the church but its truth is a truth of faith defined by the Council of Trent (held between 1545 and 1563, Sess. 25). Purgatory will last only until the general judgement. (Cf. Holy Souls.)

"It must be understood that purgatory in an eschatological idea. Thus, its importance is its formal theological significance, and not its factual existence (cf. Lk. 16:19-31). The final testing of one's faith is not a "punishment" but one of response (1 Cor. 3:12-23). The center of the church's teaching concerning purgatory as stated in the documents of the Council of Lyons is one of penance: "Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for (sins) committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorial or purifying punishments..." (Denzinger, 464).

"To this is added the Christian teaching that such "purgatorial punishments" may be relieved by the offerings of the living faithful, such as Masses, prayers, alms, and other acts of piety and devotion. Such prayers are also considered to be prayers for the parousia (Rv. 22:17). See Communion of Saints)."

These two sentences from the above mess make it clear that the doctrine of "purgatory" is a man made doctrine that mocks God.

1) "This state is not described in the teaching of the church but its truth is a truth of faith defined by the Council of Trent (Sess. 25)."
2) "Thus, its importance is its formal theological significance, and not its factual existence (cf. Lk. 16:19-31)."


In the concluding verses 27-31 of Luke 16, Jesus makes it clear that after death is too late to be reconciled to God. It must be done while alive upon this earth. There is nothing in Catholic teaching about purgatory that can force it into alignment with the Holy Scriptures.

In Colossians 1:24 (one of the Scriptures on which Roman Catholicism has attempted to hang Purgatory's hat) Paul writes, “Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His body, which is the church.” God's Word is very clear that Christ’s death was the fully sufficient payment for our sin, so Paul is not speaking of anything lacking or deficient in the sufferings that Christ endured in which He fully atoned for the sins of the world.

Rather, Paul is saying that his (Paul’s) suffering for Christ’s sake for Christ's body of believers, His fledgling church congregation, was still lacking, but that Paul was not yet conformed to the Savior in his sufferings. Various Bible translations from the original Greek bring this out more clearly: “I am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am participating in the sufferings of Christ that continue for His body, the church” (NLT); and “Now I rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf. And with my own body I supplement whatever is lacking [on our part] of Christ’s afflictions, on behalf of His body, which is the church” (AMP).

Please Note that 1) Paul's suffering is for the universal believers that comprise the body of Christ, and 2) that the lack is on Paul’s part, not on Christ’s.

It is indeed "God's wish that no man should perish." (2nd Peter 3:9)

I appreciate your effort, Roamin,' but there is no "there" there regarding the existence of purgatory.

Paul said to Christian believers: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:8)
The teaching of Purgatory is not so ancient as you... (show quote)

Thanks Zemirah!

Reader's Digest version: Purgatory is unbiblical.

Reply
Nov 9, 2022 06:19:14   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
That too, was my conclusion. Man may choose to believe whatever he wishes, but -

Thanks be to God, the truth is still the truth.

Parky60 wrote:
Thanks Zemirah!

Reader's Digest version: Purgatory is unbiblical.

Reply
 
 
Nov 9, 2022 09:40:39   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile
 
Zemirah wrote:
...the doctrine of "purgatory" is a man made doctrine that mocks God.


Thank you Zemirah, I understand and agree with everything here except I don't understand your conclusion that the desire for a contrite heart which creates in us a desire to somehow atone for our sins, even after we have been forgiven, can be considered a mockery of God.

Or is it the Protestant view that at the moment of death, if we are aware and are truly repentant of all our sins, we are totally forgiven and enter immediately into Heaven?

Reply
Nov 9, 2022 23:47:40   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
It is the very basis of Christianity, Roamin',

There is no concept of "penance," in the Bible, that is a man-made concept.

There is only repentance and acceptance of Jesus' once-for-all blood atonement on the behave of all mankind, who will repent (literally means to change, to turn, and go another way), and accept the free gift of salvation.

It is the Bible's teaching that at the moment one believes in the gospel, and accepts, by faith, Jesus's blood sacrifice, once-for-all, on our behave, the Holy Spirit, in that moment cleanses us of all unrighteousness.

Have you never read the book of Hebrews?

It is God's view. It is Heaven's view. It is Jesus the Christ's view. It is the Bible's view.

It is the reason Jesus became incarnate, and came to earth. He said, "for this cause, came I into the world."
(John 14:13-15).

It is the reason John the Baptist said, when he saw Jesus, "Behold, the lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1:29).

It is the "Good News," the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is the reason that immediately before His voluntary death on the cross, Jesus said, in Aramaic, "TETELESTAI" {Greek: "Paid-In-Full"} (English: "It is finished."). (John 19:30).

We cannot atone for our own sins. If we could, Jesus would not have come to this earth to suffer and die for our sins. There was no other way but by the penal substitutionary atonement for sin by the death of Jesus.

It is the height of sin, pride and self conceit to think that we can, in any way, contribute to the atonement for our sins. (Isaiah 64:6)

In his writings, Paul contrasts the righteousness that is God's gift to men of faith in Jesus Christ to self-righteousness, which is "of the law" and "in the flesh." In this sense, self-righteousness is formal conformity to legal requirements based in one's human nature rather than in the faith of Christ. True righteousness is a humble relationship between man and God and between man and man that promotes well-being and peace. Since God Himself is the standard of righteousness, He defines righteous action. In contrast, self-righteousness is a rejection of God, the righteous standard.

Every man-made religion on earth is man futilely attempting to work his way to God.

Christianity is Christ coming to earth to pay in full for our sins, with His once-for-all death on Calvary.

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. (Hebrews 9:28)

"It is finished."


Roamin' Catholic wrote:
Thank you Zemirah, I understand and agree with everything here except I don't understand your conclusion that the desire for a contrite heart which creates in us a desire to somehow atone for our sins, even after we have been forgiven, can be considered a mockery of God.

Or is it the Protestant view that at the moment of death, if we are aware and are truly repentant of all our sins, we are totally forgiven and enter immediately into Heaven?

Reply
Nov 10, 2022 09:12:27   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile
 
Zemirah wrote:


It is the height of sin, pride and self conceit to think that we can, in any way, contribute to the atonement for our sins. (Isaiah 64:6)


I know we cannot, by our own works, atone for our sins. Christ's Body and Blood are the atonement for our sins.

That is why the Holy Eucharistic, the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ is the Source and Summit of the Catholic Church. Once offered, and for all, yet in the Mass we are taken back to the Institution of the Eucharist, present at the Last Supper with the Disciples, to eat His Body and drink His Blood, literally.

By doing this we are participating in our salvation, emptying ourselves totally and Receiving Him totally. And then He literally and Substantially dwells within us. Physically and Spiritually. Because I am a physical and spiritual being, weak, especially in the flesh, so I need His physical Body and Blood within me.

When I go to meet my Maker, If I am permitted I will pray, Eternal Father, I offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of your dearly Beloved Son, my Lord Jesus Christ. In atonement for my sins and those of the whole world. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have Mercy on me, and on the whole world.

Jesus I Trust in You.

It is finished.

Reply
Nov 13, 2022 04:14:45   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
"DNA analysis of "Consecrated" sacramental bread refuted Catholic transubstantiation claim."

Religious institutions such as the Catholic Church, where the round baked cracker they have titled the "host" is held to have been transubstantiated into the literal physical blood and body of Jesus Christ, exert enormous influence on the life of large numbers of individuals, and their claims are seldom questioned or challenged.

In October, 2014 in the online Scientific Design.org, a study by Mehran Sam, PhD, in which the Catholic Dogma of transubstantiation had been tested by DNA analysis was reported:

"Results showed unequivocally that the rituals performed by the priests during the Eucharist sacrament have no detectable effect on the substance of altar bread at the DNA level."

With 1.2 billion members worldwide, the Roman Catholic Church exerts its influence on a significant portion of the world population. One of the important doctrines of Catholicism affirms that the wheat wafer (also called hostia, host or sacramental bread) used in the sacrament of Eucharist or Holy Communion becomes in actual reality the body of Jesus Christ, in a process called transubstantiation. The doctrine of transubstantiation was officially defined during the council of Trent in 1551 CE and holds that the consecration that takes place during Eucharist literally changes the substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ.

Understandably, the claim has been viewed with skepticism among non-Catholics, but also among increasing numbers of Catholics who are being disillusioned with the Church’s insistence on upholding unbiblical dogmas. "We tested the credibility of the transubstantiation dogma by analyzing the substance of consecrated sacramental bread. Host samples collected in Catholic churches during communion were tested for the presence of wheat and human DNA using PCR, and compared to human and wheat controls."

"Consecrated hosts were collected during communion in 5 different Catholic churches in the United States and Canada and immediately placed into clean plastic bags to avoid contamination. A sample of cultured HEK-293 cells was used as the human control. Unconsecrated altar bread purchased from a church supply store was used as the wheat control."

Human DNA was extracted from the control human cells using the GeneJet genomic DNA purification kit (Thermo Scientific, USA) according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

Isolation of DNA from the altar bread samples (both consecrated and unconsecrated) was performed as follows. Bread fragments were placed into 2 ml microcentrifuge tubes into which 1.3 ml of DNA extraction solution (150 mM NaCl, 0.05 N NaOH, 2.5 mM EDTA, 0.25% SDS) was added. Tubes were then incubated at 65°C while being shaken at 900 RPM for 20 minutes. The tubes were then centrifuged at 21000 g for 5 minutes and 200 µl of supernatant was transferred to fresh tubes. DNA was purified from the supernatant samples using DNA Clean & Concentrator kit (Zymo Research, USA) according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

All samples and controls were amplified using both pairs of primers in separate reactions.
Amplification products were visualized on a 1.5% agarose electrophoresis gel alongside a 50 bp DNA ladder.

Primer pairs that would allow to amplify specifically human and wheat DNA respectively under the same PCR conditions (same annealing temperature and product size range) Primers F7901 and R8311 [1], which target region 7901 to 8311 of the human mitochondrial genome, and Dgas44-F and Dgas44-R [2], which target the D genome-specific repetitive DNA sequence Dgas44 in wheat, were selected as human-specific and wheat-specific amplification primers respectively.

Wheat controls (lanes WC) show amplification products with both pairs of primers, with a more intense band with wheat primers. The human DNA detected in the wheat control was introduced during handling of the bread sample. The 5 consecrated bread samples (lanes 1 to 5) analyzed using wheat primers show the 286 bp band that would be expected for regular bread material but that should be absent if wheat DNA had somehow been changed into human DNA through the consecration performed by priests.

Only one sample (number 5) shows a 411 bp PCR product when amplified using human primers, with a much lower band intensity than the 286 bp product obtained with wheat primers. All other consecrated bread samples show no amplification using human primers. Sample 5 is human contamination during handling, as inferred by comparison with the wheat control. Taken together, these results are consistent with the consecrated sacramental bread samples being regular bread samples, and inconsistent with the claim of transubstantiation or the idea that the consecration during the Eucharist sacrament would change the wheat DNA into human DNA.

The transubstantiation claim by the Catholic Church is particularly relevant because of the doctrine’s insistence that the transformation of bread into the body of Christ is not symbolic but a physical reality. The claim was easy to test, however, the main reason for this study was to answer requests by former Catholics recovering from dogmatic indoctrination.

As believers themselves agree that the appearance, taste and texture of sacramental bread are retained after consecration, it is unclear what the “substance” that is allegedly transformed could be. If the host still looks like bread and tastes like bread after having been consecrated, the molecules responsible for the taste and texture can not have been affected.

This leaves DNA as the most probable candidate. Indeed, if wheat DNA in a piece of bread could be replaced by human DNA, the change would not affect the bread’s texture or taste. On the other hand, DNA represents the actual “substance” of any biological material because it contains the information that defines that material and could be used to create a copy of it. Therefore, testing the transubstantiation claim by DNA analysis seems a quite reasonable approach to take. To critics who would question the assumption that the body of Jesus Christ has human DNA, it can easily be replied that all Christians believe that Jesus had a biological mother (Mary) who was a human being. Uncontroversially, Mary gave her son half of her genome as well as her mitochondrial DNA, no matter who the father was. If Mary or any of her children was tested using the human-specific PCR primers used in this study, the test would be positive, especially because it specifically detects mitochondrial DNA, which is transmitted exclusively by the mother.

The individuals who provided us with the consecrated hosts obtained them during communion, and transferred them discretely into plastic bags instead of ingesting them. However, these individuals were all former Catholics who had felt victimized by the Church’s dogmatic teachings and saw this action as contributing to their recovery. The moral dilemma of obtaining samples through deception is to be contrasted with the ethics of enrolling non-consenting newborns into a religious organization, endoctrinating children with unquestionable dogmas and instilling fear, guilt and shame in them with long-lasting consequences for their psychological well-being. In agreement with our results, we are confident that no sentient being was physically harmed in the course of this study.

This study invalidates the claim that a manmade religious ritual performed by a Roman Catholic priest changed the substance of a bread wafer into the substance of a human body. It is by no means an attack on religion, but rather a small step in the refutation of false and deliberately misleading and irrational indoctrination, which is an important role of science.

Roamin' Catholic wrote:
I know we cannot, by our own works, atone for our sins. Christ's Body and Blood are the atonement for our sins.

That is why the Holy Eucharistic, the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ is the Source and Summit of the Catholic Church. Once offered, and for all, yet in the Mass we are taken back to the Institution of the Eucharist, present at the Last Supper with the Disciples, to eat His Body and drink His Blood, literally.

By doing this we are participating in our salvation, emptying ourselves totally and Receiving Him totally. And then He literally and Substantially dwells within us. Physically and Spiritually. Because I am a physical and spiritual being, weak, especially in the flesh, so I need His physical Body and Blood within me.

When I go to meet my Maker, If I am permitted I will pray, Eternal Father, I offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of your dearly Beloved Son, my Lord Jesus Christ. In atonement for my sins and those of the whole world. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have Mercy on me, and on the whole world.

Jesus I Trust in You.

It is finished.
I know we cannot, by our own works, atone for our ... (show quote)

Reply
 
 
Nov 16, 2022 07:09:45   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile
 
Let all of mankind tremble, the whole world shake, the heavens exalt, when Christ, the Son of the Living God, is present on the altar in the hands of the priest!

O admirable heights of sublime holiness! O sublime humility! O humble sublimity! When the Lord of the universe, God and the Son of God, so humbles Himself that for our salvation He hides Himself under the little form of bread!

Look brothers and sisters, upon the humility of God, and pour out your hearts before Him! Humble yourselves as well, so that you will be exalted by Him! Therefore hold back nothing of yourselves for yourselves, so that He who gives Himself totally to you may receive you totally!

-St. Francis of Asisi.

Dear Zemirah,

Examining the Consecrated Host for DNA does not conform to Christ's Intentions. He said, My Flesh is Real Food and My Blood is Real Drink! Unless you Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood you have no Life in you!

So logic indicates that we should literally Eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood! Not doubt His Word and pick His Gift apart to ascertain its value! Or was He speaking metaphorically? If that was the case why did everyone, except His Disciples, leave Him? "This is a hard saying " was their reaction.

No, the preponderance of evidence, including instances of empirical evidence where biopsies indicated the
miraculous transubstantiation resulting in the Host consisting of living human heart tissue, refute DNA tests just as strongly as we refute our very own senses of sight, touch and taste. We pour ourselves out, we are totally devoid of not only senses but of sense, so that we may totally receive Him who gives Himself totally to us!

Peace be with you my friend.

Reply
Nov 21, 2022 07:45:04   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Thank you for your clarity in posting your Roman Catholic beliefs, Roamin'. That is rarely seen, since John Paul's Vatican II cosmetical "whitewashing" of the snarling fangs/true gospel of Rome... among those who have been seduced by the doctrines of demons.

You quoted Mark from 6th chapter:
53 "So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink."

but, Roamin.' you ignored the beginning of the chapter where Jesus fed the 5,000 people with 5 loafs of barley bread and 2 small fish. The crowd had chased Jesus down the following day hoping for another free meal, rather than interest in Jesus' spiritual message to them, and Jesus knew their intentions. The parallelism in which Hebrew scripture is often written; the symbolic, then the literal meaning" is used:

61 "Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
64 However, there are some of you who do not believe.”

An even clearer, "plainer spoken," if you will, than the mystical one you spoke is this expose of the gospel of the Holy Mother Institute of Roman Catholicism as revealed by Fr. John Anthony O'Brien, who was born in 1893, ordained a priest in 1916, taught at Notre Dame, and died in 1980,

In his 1938 best selling book, "The Faith of Millions," which went through 27 editions in 10 languages, Fr. O'Brien wrote on page 255-256,

"The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest's command..."

"When the priest announces the tremendous words of consecration, "hoc est corpus meum" - "this is my body," in Latin – the words uttered by the celebrant during the consecration while he elevates the host, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man."

"It is a power greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim.

"Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of mankind - not once but a thousand times!

The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God bows His head in humble obedience to the priest's command.

"Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador and the vicegerent of Christ on earth! He continues the essential ministry of Christ: he teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ, he offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement which Christ offered on Calvary.

"No wonder that the name which spiritual writers are especially fond of applying to the priest is that of alter Christus, for the priest is and and should be another Christ."

The Catholic priest who has received the power of the Apostles via his Holy Orders IS an "Alter Christus" The literal meaning: "another Christ" - [actually "in place of Christ as in "antiChrist".] Thus at the altar when he confects the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist he is in Persona Christi. The human man, the priest, no longer exists, rather it is Christ himself standing at the altar as both high priest and also as the victim offered. It is in this sense then, that it is TO CHRIST to whom "the omnipotent God bows His head in humble obedience...." NOT the priest the man, but to Christ himself."

That is the end of the quotation, which lacks all common sense, and any sense of Biblical literacy or meaning.

That quotation takes us back historically to the 8th century Before Christ, or before the common era, when all pagan religions had services in which they literally ate the flesh and blood of their deity/idols.

“The Sacrifice of the Mass clearly violates God’s Word and is a powerful deception that holds Catholics in bondage.” Indeed, all things taught by men must be judged according to God’s word - the Bible (Acts 17:10-11), and the actual teaching of the earliest centuries show rejection of this doctrine but the historical development begins as late as the fourth century. It is counter-intuitive to cite Church Fathers and Tradition as evidence for the doctrine of Transubstantiation; for if we use such reasoning the earliest teachings in the Bible and the earliest Church Fathers opposed this doctrine.

It began seeping into the Christian Church after Roman Emperor Constantine perverted Christianity with political favourtism, wealth, and power to the detriment of their pursuit of Holy worship in spirit, in simplicity and in truth. Spectacular pagan rituals, and rites with pomp and pageantry were substituted for the missing presence of the Holy Spirit.

In summary, the doctrine of Transubstantiation consists of the necessity of believing: 1) the bread and wine truly, but invisibly become the very substance of the body and blood, soul and spirit of Christ; 2) the bread and wine are the objects of devout worship after having been transubstantiated; 3) this sacrament is the most important of Rome's seven sacraments, and it is promoted as the major evangelistic outreach of the Catholic church; 4) the symbolic bread and wine in memory of Jesus' once for all as it has been called “the sacrament of sacraments,”4) because, “The Worship and Adoration (Latria) must be given to Christ present in the Eucharist…. It follows from the wholeness and permanence of the Real Presence that the absolute worship of adoration (Cultus Latriae) is due to Christ present in the Eucharist.”5) Since this bread and wine truly become Christ’s body and blood, “The Holy Mass is a true and proper Sacrifice.” [except it isn't!]

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,"

The False Christ of Roman Catholicism
By Mike Gendron

"We know from God’s inspired Word that false teachers will come and preach another Jesus that the apostles never preached (2nd Cor. 11:3-4). So it should not surprise us that there are many counterfeit Christs in false religions masquerading as the true Christ. By far, the most deceptive false Christ is the Eucharist of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Blasphemous Hoax That Deceives Catholics

In The Faith of Millions, a book certified by the Catholic Church to be “free of doctrinal errors”, Catholic priest John O’Brien explains how the Eucharist becomes Jesus during the Mass: “When the priest pronounces the words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of saints and angels. The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.”

The Outrageous Lie and its Implications

As preposterous and unthinkable as this may sound, the Catholic priest is said to have the power to call almighty God down from heaven and continue on an altar what the Lord Jesus finished on the cross (John 19:30). It is unfathomable that Catholics would believe a sinful priest can command our holy God to do anything and that God would actually obey him. Yet, over 200,000 times each day, throughout the world, priests believe they can re-present Jesus as a sacrificial victim for sins.

Our Lord Jesus Christ was voluntarily immersed in the wrath of God and endured excruciating pain once-for-all-time, for-all-sin (Hebrews 10:10,12). It is unconscionable that Roman Catholics would want to continue His suffering on their altars, or believe they have any power over God. It is also dishonoring to refer to Jesus as a “victim.” He laid His life down on His own initiative as an act of sacrificial love for His sheep (John 10:18). He was a “victor” who defeated death, not a “victim!”

Finally, that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God means that He conquered death. Hebrews 1:3 says “after making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Jesus cleansed our sins on the cross through His death. He said, "It is finished." After that, the author of Hebrews immediately continues to Jesus’ ascension to heaven, where He sits at the right hand of God. So that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, shows that death could not hold Him. He conquered death!

Roamin' Catholic wrote:
Let all of mankind tremble, the whole world shake, the heavens exalt, when Christ, the Son of the Living God, is present on the altar in the hands of the priest!

O admirable heights of sublime holiness! O sublime humility! O humble sublimity! When the Lord of the universe, God and the Son of God, so humbles Himself that for our salvation He hides Himself under the little form of bread!

Look brothers and sisters, upon the humility of God, and pour out your hearts before Him! Humble yourselves as well, so that you will be exalted by Him! Therefore hold back nothing of yourselves for yourselves, so that He who gives Himself totally to you may receive you totally!

-St. Francis of Asisi.

Dear Zemirah,

Examining the Consecrated Host for DNA does not conform to Christ's Intentions. He said, My Flesh is Real Food and My Blood is Real Drink! Unless you Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood you have no Life in you!

So logic indicates that we should literally Eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood! Not doubt His Word and pick His Gift apart to ascertain its value! Or was He speaking metaphorically? If that was the case why did everyone, except His Disciples, leave Him? "This is a hard saying " was their reaction.

No, the preponderance of evidence, including instances of empirical evidence where biopsies indicated the
miraculous transubstantiation resulting in the Host consisting of living human heart tissue, refute DNA tests just as strongly as we refute our very own senses of sight, touch and taste. We pour ourselves out, we are totally devoid of not only senses but of sense, so that we may totally receive Him who gives Himself totally to us!

Peace be with you my friend.
Let all of mankind tremble, the whole world shake,... (show quote)

Reply
Nov 22, 2022 19:22:55   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile
 
Thank you Zemirah. Sorry I cannot write much at the moment but I am appalled at the doctrinal errors in the book "The Faith of Millions ". If it was just a book promoting a point of view I wouldn't care but apparently it has the imprimatur. Truly scandalous! 🤨

Reply
Nov 24, 2022 13:33:33   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Good Thanksgiving Day, Roamin',

Since I do not recognize the Institute of Roman Catholicism as having any Biblical authority to exist, and do recognize it as containing all the Heretical and totally unBiblical features Scripture forewarned Christians against, I'm much less appalled by the book, "The Faith of Millions" than are you.

I am horrified that "The Faith of Millions" contains the very same grievous, unBiblical errors that the official "Catholic Encyclopedia" and "The Catechism of the Catholic Church," and all the other officially endorsed and authoratively approved publications of Roman Catholicism within my home library contain, which were principally developed by self-promoting godless men during the 5th, 6th and 7th centuries, A.D.

I wish you a day of relaxation, reunion and restrained gluttony with beloved family and friends.

For those unfamiliar with the printed official approval markings on the inside covers of those books Roman Catholics are permitted to read:

"The imprimatur: is an official mark of approval or endorsement; best known as a license to print or publish, especially as granted by a censor or an ecclesiastical authority." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

"The nihil-obstat is authoritative approval; an attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals, and a declaration of no objection that would warrant censoring of the book." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

Roamin' Catholic wrote:
Thank you Zemirah. Sorry I cannot write much at the moment but I am appalled at the doctrinal errors in the book "The Faith of Millions ". If it was just a book promoting a point of view I wouldn't care but apparently it has the imprimatur. Truly scandalous! 🤨

Reply
 
 
Nov 25, 2022 20:53:29   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile
 
I hope you and all on OPP are having a good Thanksgiving holiday!

It has been about 20 years since I last listened to the Catechism on tape while driving on business. Listened three times actually over the course of a couple years.

I will review the Catechism and respond to what I feel are terrible errors in the writings to which you refer. This unfortunately will take awhile, but eventually I will post in the Religion and Spirituality section.

Reply
Nov 26, 2022 17:06:44   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Roamin', pursuit to your "review" of the 1992 Roman Catholic Catechism, please keep this in mind:

The 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church does not contain the Biblical words that assure spiritual salvation and eternal life spent in God's presence.

The 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church, presents the teachings of Roman Catholicism's branch of Christianity on their Pope, their Sacrificial Mass, on Mary, and on the saints and their presumed role, highlighting Catholicism's drastic departure from the Bible, from Orthodox Christianity, and from Protestantism.

The most cursory reading of the New Testament reveals that the Roman Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or the Holy Spirit inspired words of His apostles, for in the New Testament - there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary, the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or of Mary as co-redemptrix with Christ, or as a mediatrix between living Christians and God.

There is also no mention in the Bible of petitioning the souls of the saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, church ordinances functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, the sale of indulgences, or of Scripture sharing any of its authority with church traditions.

Who would want to be part of a church which is about self-righteousness, religious smugness, empty tradition and superstition? Who would want a church which is spectator-orientated, with a large group of people depending on one man to do everything for them, rather than actively participating, serving, forming relationships, studying and learning for themselves?

Because the origin of Roman Catholism's teaching is clearly not to be found in the Biblical New Testament teachings of Jesus and His apostles, it is necessary to search elsewhere for the true origins of this Mystery church!


Roamin' Catholic wrote:
I hope you and all on OPP are having a good Thanksgiving holiday!

It has been about 20 years since I last listened to the Catechism on tape while driving on business. Listened three times actually over the course of a couple years.

I will review the Catechism and respond to what I feel are terrible errors in the writings to which you refer. This unfortunately will take awhile, but eventually I will post in the Religion and Spirituality section.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 2
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2023 IDF International Technologies, Inc.