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How does this, somewhat tedious, article sit with you guys?
Sep 25, 2022 23:11:16   #
Marty 2020 Loc: Banana Republic of Kalifornia
 
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/09/fr-emmanuel-mccarthy/848568-2/
I tend to agree.

Reply
Sep 26, 2022 21:46:28   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
Marty 2020 wrote:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/09/fr-emmanuel-mccarthy/848568-2/
I tend to agree.

Readers Digest version:

Hebrew Word: ‏צְבָאָה‎
Transliteration: tsebâʾâh
A mass of persons (or figurative things), especially organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign

Reply
Sep 28, 2022 18:22:36   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Marty 2020 wrote:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/09/fr-emmanuel-mccarthy/848568-2/
I tend to agree.


What exactly are you agreeing to?

The New Testament was written in a form of Koine Greek, at a time when Greek was spoken by more Jews than Hebrew. Translation is an interpretative process, to some extent. When translating from one language to another, choices must be made.

As an example, in Colossians 3:12, Paul says we are to put on “bowels of mercies” (KJV). The Greek word for “bowels,” which is literally “intestines,” comes from a root word meaning “spleen.” The KJV translators chose a literal translation of the word. The translators of the NASB chose “heart of compassion”—the “heart” being what today’s reader thinks of as the seat of emotions. The Amplified Bible has it as “tenderhearted pity and mercy.” The NIV simply puts “compassion.”

So, the KJV is the most literal in the above example, but the other translations certainly do justice to the verse. The core meaning of the command is to have compassionate feelings.

Have you investigated fr-emmanuel-mccarthy? He is what is commonly known as a "conscientious objector." A conscientious objector is an "individual who has claimed the right to refuse to perform military service" on the grounds of freedom of thought, conscience, or religion.

"Emmanuel Charles McCarthy is a priest of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, an Eastern Catholic church in communion with the Holy See.
He has been a Melkite Catholic priest since he was ordained on 9 August 1981, in Damascus, Syria.
He has served as spiritual director and rector of the now-defunct St. Gregory the Theologian Melkite Catholic Seminary in Newton, Massachusetts, and is now a retreat director."

https://www.emmanuelcharlesmccarthy.org/

"Center for Christian Nonviolence
Jesus Way of Nonviolent Love of Friends and Enemies"

About this Website:

Thank you for visiting this website, which is a compilation of all the work that Fr. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy has done in the last fifty (50) years plus. The purpose of this website is to provide information on the Nonviolent Jesus of the Gospel, which calls for a radical alteration in thought patterns, verbal patterns, behavioural patterns, and emotional patterns."

This is my observation, Marty,

When Jesus returns to earth, He will come as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, with His army of saints (us), and He will slay all the armies of the world that fight for the Anti-Christ, and are attempting to destroy the Israelis. This is a real-time battle in Revelation 14:20, 19:11,14-15,17-18, although the slaughter appears to be instantaneous, through Jesus' supernatural power, and there is no question of who will triumph:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia (about 180 miles or about 300 kilometers).

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."

My own objection to the claim that Jesus and the authors of the New Testament were opposed to all forms of violence is that neither Jesus nor anyone else speaks out against the soldiers of Rome for being soldiers. When soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do in response to his message, for example, he told them not to "extort money," not to "accuse people falsely," and to be "content with [their] pay" (Luke 3: 14). He didn’t tell them to leave the military.

In a similar fashion, when Jesus encountered a distraught Centurion, he healed his servant and praised his faith without saying a word about his role as an officer in the Roman-governed army (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10).

Without commenting on his military service, Mark reports that a Centurion confessed faith in Jesus when he witnessed how He died (Mark 15:39). This same attitude is carried over into the early church. The first Gentile who came to Christ in the book of Acts was another Roman army Centurion. As Peter preached the Gospel to this man and his household, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they were all baptized without a word being uttered about this man’s military service (Acts 10:44-8).

From Augustine to Aquinas to Luther up to the present time, these episodes have been frequently cited to justify Christians serving in the government sanctioned lawful military of a country. Governments were authorized by God and their function is to protect their nation's borders and its citizenry.

Paul declared that the only message the church is to announce to those outside the church is the message of reconciliation that God has given us: namely, that through Christ, God “was reconciling the world to Himself…not counting people’s sins against them" (2 Corinthians 5:19). As the Holy Spirit convicted people of their sins, through the preaching of the gospel, their message was that God has already forgiven their sin, and they are to believe and accept his forgiveness, in faith, and sin no more!

Jesus and the New Testament authors' emphasis was not in policing the ethical behavior of the people and governments of the world-at-large, but to call out a people for His name. The New Testament doesn’t espouse pacifism for all people as an end in-and-of itself, but are focused on the call to make disciples of Jesus. Jesus established that the ability to love like this would be the distinguishing mark of every child of God (Matthew 5:44-5; Luke 6:35).

The lack of condemnation by Jesus against military service appears to indicate that He thought military service was not incompatible with following Him, and it illustrates how God meets people where they are without prejudging them, for He knows them. The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius, the Roman Centurion, without first requiring him to leave the military. Luke doesn’t specifically tell us if Cornelius continued in the military, but the Roman military had no provisions for military leaders to suddenly opt out of service as a “conscientious objector.” Walking away from one’s military role was considered treason and was punishable by death!

We live in a violent world. The war in Ukraine is killing thousands and causing huge waves of refugees, as it is being blamed for economic instability and food shortages. The war in Syria continues, and the conflicts in Yemen, Afghanistan and South Sudan no longer even occupy newspaper headlines.

It is surely wise that the Holy Spirit didn't instruct Luke to give the church further details on Cornelius, because if he had, the church would have long ago turned it into a formula that we’d try to apply to all Christians in military service. This is precisely what we should never do, for God works individually in the particulars of each person’s unique and messy life. Cornelius, in whatever house church he joined after his conversion, would have to work out the messy implications of his salvation “with fear and trembling,” trusting that “God” was working in him “to fulfill His good purpose” (Philippians 2:12).

This is why, in my humble opinion, no one has any business questioning the authenticity of a military person’s faith, or advocating pacifism, whether they are serving in the U.S. Military or in a military that opposes the U.S., and this includes Emmanuel Charles McCarthy, priest of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

The Bible scholars who transcribed the following well known versions of the Bible into English, were, in almost every case, experts in the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Far be it from me to second guess them... in even the most recent versions, the vast majority use the English word, "hosts." ...including the Jewish Tanakh in English and the English translation of the Greek Septuagint, although quite a few find some form of "armies" their word of choice.

New International Version
And they were calling to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

New Living Translation
They were calling out to each other, “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Heaven’s Armies! The whole earth is filled with his glory!”

English Standard Version
And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”

Berean Standard Bible
And they were calling out to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory.”

King James Bible
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

New King James Version
And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!”

New American Standard Bible
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of armies. The whole earth is full of His glory.”

NASB 1995
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”

NASB 1977
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”

Amplified Bible
And one called out to another, saying, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is filled with His glory.”

Christian Standard Bible
And one called to another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Armies; his glory fills the whole earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And one called to another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; His glory fills the whole earth.

American Standard Version
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And they were calling, this one to that one, and they were saying, “Holy, holy, holy, LORD JEHOVAH of Hosts, for all of the Earth is filled with his praises!”

Brenton Greek Septuagint English Translation
And one cried to the other, and they said, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Contemporary English Version
as they shouted, "Holy, holy, holy, LORD All-Powerful! The earth is filled with your glory."

Douay-Rheims Bible
And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God of hosts, all the earth is full of his glory.

Good News Translation
They were calling out to each other: "Holy, holy, holy! The LORD Almighty is holy! His glory fills the world."

International Standard Version
They kept on calling to each other: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of the Heavenly Armies! The whole earth is full of his glory!"

Jewish Publication Society Hebrew Tanakh in English 1917
And one called unto another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory.

Literal Standard Version
And this one has called to that, and has said: “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, [is] YHWH of Hosts, The fullness of all the earth [is] His glory!”

New American Bible
One cried out to the other: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts! All the earth is filled with his glory!”

NET Bible
They called out to one another, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord who commands armies! His majestic splendor fills the entire earth!"

New Revised Standard Version
And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

New Heart English Bible
One called to another, and said, "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory."

World English Bible
One called to another, and said, "Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of Armies! The whole earth is full of his glory!"

Young's Literal Translation
And this one hath called unto that, and hath said: 'Holy, Holy, Holy, is Jehovah of Hosts, The fullness of all the earth is His glory.'

Reply
 
 
Sep 29, 2022 01:44:26   #
Marty 2020 Loc: Banana Republic of Kalifornia
 
Zemirah wrote:
What exactly are you agreeing to?

The New Testament was written in a form of Koine Greek, at a time when Greek was spoken by more Jews than Hebrew. Translation is an interpretative process, to some extent. When translating from one language to another, choices must be made.

As an example, in Colossians 3:12, Paul says we are to put on “bowels of mercies” (KJV). The Greek word for “bowels,” which is literally “intestines,” comes from a root word meaning “spleen.” The KJV translators chose a literal translation of the word. The translators of the NASB chose “heart of compassion”—the “heart” being what today’s reader thinks of as the seat of emotions. The Amplified Bible has it as “tenderhearted pity and mercy.” The NIV simply puts “compassion.”

So, the KJV is the most literal in the above example, but the other translations certainly do justice to the verse. The core meaning of the command is to have compassionate feelings.

Have you investigated fr-emmanuel-mccarthy? He is what is commonly known as a "conscientious objector." A conscientious objector is an "individual who has claimed the right to refuse to perform military service" on the grounds of freedom of thought, conscience, or religion.

"Emmanuel Charles McCarthy is a priest of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, an Eastern Catholic church in communion with the Holy See.
He has been a Melkite Catholic priest since he was ordained on 9 August 1981, in Damascus, Syria.
He has served as spiritual director and rector of the now-defunct St. Gregory the Theologian Melkite Catholic Seminary in Newton, Massachusetts, and is now a retreat director."

https://www.emmanuelcharlesmccarthy.org/

"Center for Christian Nonviolence
Jesus Way of Nonviolent Love of Friends and Enemies"

About this Website:

Thank you for visiting this website, which is a compilation of all the work that Fr. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy has done in the last fifty (50) years plus. The purpose of this website is to provide information on the Nonviolent Jesus of the Gospel, which calls for a radical alteration in thought patterns, verbal patterns, behavioural patterns, and emotional patterns."

This is my observation, Marty,

When Jesus returns to earth, He will come as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, with His army of saints (us), and He will slay all the armies of the world that fight for the Anti-Christ, and are attempting to destroy the Israelis. This is a real-time battle in Revelation 14:20, 19:11,14-15,17-18, although the slaughter appears to be instantaneous, through Jesus' supernatural power, and there is no question of who will triumph:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia (about 180 miles or about 300 kilometers).

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."

My own objection to the claim that Jesus and the authors of the New Testament were opposed to all forms of violence is that neither Jesus nor anyone else speaks out against the soldiers of Rome for being soldiers. When soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do in response to his message, for example, he told them not to "extort money," not to "accuse people falsely," and to be "content with [their] pay" (Luke 3: 14). He didn’t tell them to leave the military.

In a similar fashion, when Jesus encountered a distraught Centurion, he healed his servant and praised his faith without saying a word about his role as an officer in the Roman-governed army (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10).

Without commenting on his military service, Mark reports that a Centurion confessed faith in Jesus when he witnessed how He died (Mark 15:39). This same attitude is carried over into the early church. The first Gentile who came to Christ in the book of Acts was another Roman army Centurion. As Peter preached the Gospel to this man and his household, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they were all baptized without a word being uttered about this man’s military service (Acts 10:44-8).

From Augustine to Aquinas to Luther up to the present time, these episodes have been frequently cited to justify Christians serving in the government sanctioned lawful military of a country. Governments were authorized by God and their function is to protect their nation's borders and its citizenry.

Paul declared that the only message the church is to announce to those outside the church is the message of reconciliation that God has given us: namely, that through Christ, God “was reconciling the world to Himself…not counting people’s sins against them" (2 Corinthians 5:19). As the Holy Spirit convicted people of their sins, through the preaching of the gospel, their message was that God has already forgiven their sin, and they are to believe and accept his forgiveness, in faith, and sin no more!

Jesus and the New Testament authors' emphasis was not in policing the ethical behavior of the people and governments of the world-at-large, but to call out a people for His name. The New Testament doesn’t espouse pacifism for all people as an end in-and-of itself, but are focused on the call to make disciples of Jesus. Jesus established that the ability to love like this would be the distinguishing mark of every child of God (Matthew 5:44-5; Luke 6:35).

The lack of condemnation by Jesus against military service appears to indicate that He thought military service was not incompatible with following Him, and it illustrates how God meets people where they are without prejudging them, for He knows them. The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius, the Roman Centurion, without first requiring him to leave the military. Luke doesn’t specifically tell us if Cornelius continued in the military, but the Roman military had no provisions for military leaders to suddenly opt out of service as a “conscientious objector.” Walking away from one’s military role was considered treason and was punishable by death!

We live in a violent world. The war in Ukraine is killing thousands and causing huge waves of refugees, as it is being blamed for economic instability and food shortages. The war in Syria continues, and the conflicts in Yemen, Afghanistan and South Sudan no longer even occupy newspaper headlines.

It is surely wise that the Holy Spirit didn't instruct Luke to give the church further details on Cornelius, because if he had, the church would have long ago turned it into a formula that we’d try to apply to all Christians in military service. This is precisely what we should never do, for God works individually in the particulars of each person’s unique and messy life. Cornelius, in whatever house church he joined after his conversion, would have to work out the messy implications of his salvation “with fear and trembling,” trusting that “God” was working in him “to fulfill His good purpose” (Philippians 2:12).

This is why, in my humble opinion, no one has any business questioning the authenticity of a military person’s faith, or advocating pacifism, whether they are serving in the U.S. Military or in a military that opposes the U.S., and this includes Emmanuel Charles McCarthy, priest of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

The Bible scholars who transcribed the following well known versions of the Bible into English, were, in almost every case, experts in the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Far be it from me to second guess them... in even the most recent versions, the vast majority use the English word, "hosts." ...including the Jewish Tanakh in English and the English translation of the Greek Septuagint, although quite a few find some form of "armies" their word of choice.

New International Version
And they were calling to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

New Living Translation
They were calling out to each other, “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Heaven’s Armies! The whole earth is filled with his glory!”

English Standard Version
And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”

Berean Standard Bible
And they were calling out to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory.”

King James Bible
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

New King James Version
And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!”

New American Standard Bible
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of armies. The whole earth is full of His glory.”

NASB 1995
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”

NASB 1977
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”

Amplified Bible
And one called out to another, saying, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is filled with His glory.”

Christian Standard Bible
And one called to another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Armies; his glory fills the whole earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And one called to another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; His glory fills the whole earth.

American Standard Version
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And they were calling, this one to that one, and they were saying, “Holy, holy, holy, LORD JEHOVAH of Hosts, for all of the Earth is filled with his praises!”

Brenton Greek Septuagint English Translation
And one cried to the other, and they said, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Contemporary English Version
as they shouted, "Holy, holy, holy, LORD All-Powerful! The earth is filled with your glory."

Douay-Rheims Bible
And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God of hosts, all the earth is full of his glory.

Good News Translation
They were calling out to each other: "Holy, holy, holy! The LORD Almighty is holy! His glory fills the world."

International Standard Version
They kept on calling to each other: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of the Heavenly Armies! The whole earth is full of his glory!"

Jewish Publication Society Hebrew Tanakh in English 1917
And one called unto another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory.

Literal Standard Version
And this one has called to that, and has said: “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, [is] YHWH of Hosts, The fullness of all the earth [is] His glory!”

New American Bible
One cried out to the other: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts! All the earth is filled with his glory!”

NET Bible
They called out to one another, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord who commands armies! His majestic splendor fills the entire earth!"

New Revised Standard Version
And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

New Heart English Bible
One called to another, and said, "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory."

World English Bible
One called to another, and said, "Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of Armies! The whole earth is full of his glory!"

Young's Literal Translation
And this one hath called unto that, and hath said: 'Holy, Holy, Holy, is Jehovah of Hosts, The fullness of all the earth is His glory.'
What exactly are you agreeing to? br br The New T... (show quote)

I think Jesus is everything He says He is. But I tend to think of him more as a peaceful loving God, as opposed to the warring type of God. Of course there’s the 2 edged sword and rod of iron, but they’re only used on unbelievers.

Reply
Sep 29, 2022 08:14:32   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
Marty 2020 wrote:
I think Jesus is everything He says He is. But I tend to think of him more as a peaceful loving God, as opposed to the warring type of God. Of course there’s the 2 edged sword and rod of iron, but they’re only used on unbelievers.

At Jesus' first coming, He came as a suffering servant.

At His second coming He'll be coming back as a conquering King.

Pardon my coarse language but Jesus is coming back to among other things kick ass and take names.

This passage describes His second coming...the warring type of God.

Isaiah 63:1-3
Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?-- "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
"I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.

Reply
Sep 29, 2022 10:19:46   #
Marty 2020 Loc: Banana Republic of Kalifornia
 
Parky60 wrote:
At Jesus' first coming, He came as a suffering servant.

At His second coming He'll be coming back as a conquering King.

Pardon my coarse language but Jesus is coming back to among other things kick ass and take names.

This passage describes His second coming...the warring type of God.

Isaiah 63:1-3
Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?-- "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
"I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.
At Jesus' first coming, He came as a suffering ser... (show quote)

I thank God that I am a sinner, saved by Grace, and that I will be behind Him and not the focus of His wrath.

Reply
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