TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

We have had this discussion several times through the years. With respect, this is what I believe!

This is taught by Mr. Arnold Murray of Shepherds Chapel. He is less than completely honest about what most rapture believers believe. He teaches that we will be fooled by the Anti Christ who is on this earth at that time and that he asks us to go with him and we do! A rapture believer believes that we will meet Jesus in the air and that He takes us in the twinkling of the eye. He does not ask us. We are His to take! He does not step foot on earth at this time.

Our names have been written in the Book of Life. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit will not allow us to be fooled.

This is another scripture that reinforces what we believe and is ignored by Mr. Murray.

John 10:28-30

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Marty 2020 Loc: Banana Republic of Kalifornia

We will not know who the beast is. 666 comes at the middle of the tribulation. We’re outa here 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

Christ has said that He has not come to change the law but to fulfill it. God states in Isaiah 65. Read from 1 on. In verse 3 A People that provoketh Me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens and burneth incense upon alters of brick; Which remain among the graves and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh and broth of abominable things in their vessels (bodies): Which say "Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou." These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burnt all the day.

in Leviticus 11;1-8. He explains the difference.

When the sheet came down with the unclean animals and Peter said, no unclean animal has touched my Lips, God said He wasn't talking about animals but people that were going to be knocking on Peters door. Acts11;9 God said that the common man that He has cleansed is not common, in other words, if you're not with God you're common, uncleansed, He will purge you through Christ so you will not be a common man, but a Christ man.

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

Another dishonest statement of Mr. Murray and many anti-rapture teachers is that the rapture theology is relatively new! Whether a person believes in Pre trib, mid trib, or post trib is fine….it’s not a salvation issue. I’ve seen some excellent debates by Christians that represents each of these beliefs. We should never get angry and fight about it, but there is no excuse for anyone not to research information on the rapture and how far it has been traced back too that has access to the internet! The Margaret McDonald story has been debunked many times.
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https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=pretrib_arch

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE RAPTURE

Tom’s Perspectives by Thomas Ice

One of the most often cited objections to pretribulationism is that it is a new teaching in church history having only come on the scene in the 1830s. It is often argued that if the pre-trib rapture were biblical then it would have been taught earlier and throughout church history. In the last decade, individuals have found a number of pre-1830 references to a pre-trib rapture. Here is a summary of that evidence.

THE EARLY CHURCH

Since imminency is considered to be a crucial feature of pretribulationism by scholars such as John Walvoord,1 it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2

Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all speak of imminency.3 Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.

You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.4

Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian, but more likely the product of one scholars call Pseudo-Ephraem, entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World.5 The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century.

The rapture statement reads as follows:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

This statement evidences a clear belief that all Christians will escape the tribulation through a gathering to the Lord and is stated early in the sermon. How else can this be understood other than as pretribulational? The later second coming of Christ to the earth with the saints is mentioned at the end of the sermon.

THE MEDIEVAL CHURCH

By the fifth century A.D., the amillennialism of Origen and Augustine had won the day in the established Church–East and West. It is probable that some form of premillennialism persisted throughout the Middle Ages, but it existed primarily underground.

It is believed that sects like the Albigenses, Lombards, and the Waldenses were attracted to premillennialism, but little is know of the details of their beliefs since the Catholics destroyed their works when they were found. But there was at least one who held to some form of pretribulationism, namely one named Brother Dolcino in 1304.
Francis Gumerlock is the individual who advocates the Brother Dolcino rapture find and said in his book: “The Dolicinites held to a pre-tribulation rapture theory similar to that in modern dispensationalism.”6 The reason Gumerlock believes that Brother Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren taught pretribulationism is found the following statement:
“Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ.”7

THE REFORMATION CHURCH

After over a thousand years of suppression, premillennialism began to be revived as a result of at least four factors. By the late 1500's and the early 1600’s, premillennialism began to return as a factor within mainstream Protestantism. With the flowering of biblical interpretation during the late Reformation Period, premillennial interpreters began to abound throughout Protestantism and so did the development of sub-issues like the rapture.
Some began to speak of the rapture. Paul Benware notes:
Peter Jurieu in his book Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon. He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon. Philip Doddridge's commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill's commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear that these men believed that this coming will precede Christ's descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763) and
Pre-Trib Rapture — Ice — Page 2

Pre-Trib Rapture — Ice — Page 3
Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.8
Frank Marotta, a brethren researcher, believes that Thomas Collier in 1674 makes reference to a pretribulational rapture, but rejects the view,9 thus showing his awareness that such a view was being taught in the late seventeenth century. There is the interesting case of John Asgill, who wrote a book in 1700 about the possibility of translation (i.e. rapture) without seeing death.10
Perhaps the clearest reference to a pretrib rapture, if not the most developed system, before Darby comes from Baptist Morgan Edwards (founder of the Ivey League school, Brown University) who saw a distinct rapture three and a half years before the start of the millennium.11 The discovery of Edwards, who wrote about his pretrib beliefs in 1744 and later published them in 1788, is hard to dismiss.12 He taught the following:
II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.

I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17) . . . (p. 7; The spelling of all Edwards quotes have been modernized.)

CONCLUSION

I have heard from another scholar who is reading through many Latin manuscripts of previously unpublished documents that he has found a number of previously unknown pre-trib rapture statements from pre-nineteenth century Christendom. He is planning on publishing his material in a few years. What these pre-Darby rapture statements prove, if nothing else, is that indeed others did see the rapture taught in Scripture similar to the way that pretribulationists in our own day teach. Thus, the argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not historically true and it is becoming increasingly clear with each passing year. Maranatha!
ENDNOTES
1 John F. Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation (Grand Rapids:

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

I agree!

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

The second letter clarifies what they didn't understand in the first. 2nd Thessalonians 2: (Did you not reference my response in the prior reply). Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, Verse 2: That ye be not shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit,(not the Holy Spirit) nor by word, nor by letter, as from us( First letter to them), as that the day of the Lord is at hand.
Verse 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: For that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first,("rapture" the foolish virgins, one person in the field is taken the other left behind, this is the great apostasy), and that man of sin be revealed, ( the foolish virgins come back knocking upon realizing that the one they thought was the christ wasn't.) You will be deceived because every word, every jot has meaning. Get yourself an Strongs Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible withe the Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries.

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

I looked into the Word, not anyone else's interpertation, I check it myself in the concordance, so keep your outdated information to yourself and be deceived. Don't bother me with your lack of knowledge. Hear me!

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

[quote=iFrank]Got Questions? Study the Bible for yourself, Texacan. Your salvation depends on it, Christ has shorten the hour of temptation because even the elect will be deceived by anti. I study the BIBLE- Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. You think Satan will not pull the wool over your eyes, you are already getting off the path that Christ has foretold / warned you about. We have already discussed truth and you're still not studying the Bible, verse by verse, line by line, precept by precept, but rely on others to guide you. I'll leave you to ponder Christ knocking on your door.


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Mr. Frank, everything that you have shared with us comes straight out of Shepherds Chapel. There is no problem with that, but don’t accuse me of not studying the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, etc. just because I don’t agree with you! BTW, the verse by verse, chapter by chapter, phrase is a term that Mr. Murray and now his son, use on every program to prompt the viewers to study the Bible. Most of us have our favorite teachers. Why else would Jesus sent His apostles out to teach…..Why else did He call some to be teachers of The Good News? We all need help, or at least, most of us do! I certainly do, and I continually use those that I trust…….just like you do!

Marty 2020 Loc: Banana Republic of Kalifornia

[quote=TexaCan]

I don’t care what Francisco says. I know that still small voice and I get that goosebumpy sensation starting in the middle of my neck and going down a little and then back up halfway up my skull. That’s how I get the “rhema”. I’ll never doubt that.

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

No problem, peace be with you.

TexaCan Loc: Homeward Bound!

I see you emulate the same angry bulldog persona as Murray! How sad! And……NO, I don’t HEAR you! 😂

Do yourself a favor and learn a little about the man Arnold Murray and his church history!

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2008/branson-televangelist-arnold-murray-preaches-christian-identity-theology

For Murray, the end of the world isn't an abstraction. The 1980 Mount St. Helens eruption that happened during the week of Pentecost led him to proclaim the Antichrist would return in 1981. Murray's resolve has only hardened during the 27 years since that prophecy failed to come true. He dismisses his critics as "numbskulls," "Bible-thumpers" and "yo-yos."

The formula for his TV program is deceptively simple. "Verse by verse, chapter by chapter," Murray, often partnered with his son Dennis, sits between a wood desk and an American flag and interprets the King James Bible with the help of a Greek/Hebrew concordance. At the end of each show, he fields caller questions on global politics, end-times prophecy and scripture.

During a live taping of Shepherd's Chapel in 1998, an audience member yelled, "Blasphemer!" Murray turned around at his desk and pulled out a gun. The broadcast cut to Shepherd's Chapel's satellite logo but the audio continued. "Here. Take this 9mm to that boy," Murray said. The clip aired on "The Daily Show" and remains widely available on the Internet, as is another Shepherd's Chapel clip in which Murray reaches into his desk and pulls out what he claims is the fossil of an angel footprint, from a pre-Adamic time when angels walked the earth.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Frank, just as you've seen fit to spare no one your opinion, no one in this open forum who chooses to do so, should omit contributing their opinion.

If you don't wish to read the opinions of others, that is your prerogative.

The Bible, and yes, we contemporary students of the Bible who are fortunate enough to live in this "consumer" culture in Western society all have several copies, versions, editions, of them, teaches that all believers/followers of Jesus are to pre-plan and be prepared for a very unique and special "trip" through the friendly skies - without a moment's notice. (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58.)

This trip, which we speakers of the Lord's English language know as the "rapture" has been very clearly taught in God's Bible in all the various languages in which it has appeared, since the day it was completed, ca 96-97 A.D.

God's Word, a.k.a., the Bible, has always taught that believers in the last generation - the last days, will not experience physical death, but will be caught up in what is, in English, known as the “rapture”… the “snatching away”… to meet Jesus in mid air, who will then guide us safely to His eternal home, to be reunited with loved ones who have died in Christ before us. It will be a trip that is out of this world.

While you're hung up on the ancient rules of kashrut - what one can or cannot consume in one's daily diet while remaining ritually clean (which God settled two thousand years ago), we are all ready for the trip of a lifetime!

[Kashrut (also kashruth or kashrus, כַּשְׁרוּת ‎) is a set of dietary laws dealing with the foods that Jews are permitted to eat and how those foods must be prepared according to Jewish law... to be deemed kosher.]

Have a most blessed Resurrection Day, this second day of Pesach/Passover, Frank.

iFrank Loc: San Antonio

May God bless you all, if He wills it.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Blessed Resurrection day, Peewee,

I was not doubting my salvation in any way, shape or form, but have never been interested in any rewards (stars in my crowns) as an incentive. The free gift of God's eternal Salvation is so much more than I or anyone else deserves from our Holy God, I seek nothing more than to bask in His presence.

Satisfying the requirements of the self righteous is nothing I dwell upon... "We are to please God, not man."

Your sincere faith, kindness and honesty is a blessing to encounter... someone who says what he thinks... mostly!

I'm blessed that my family is here from New Jersey for the week, it is Spring Break week, so with my grandchildren in tow. They left the electric car at home... it requires hours of charging, - more convenient to ignore the price of gas, drive an SUV, and use the gained space to pack more "stuff."

Ignore the news for a few hours, and have a lovely evening, always, with the peace that God provides.

Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois

I have a different interpretation about Satan “pulling the wool over your eyes” if you’re truly saved (the elect) and shortening the hour of temptation. I too study the Bible chapter-by-chapter, verse-by-verse.

Matthew 24:21-25
21 For then (after the abomination of desolation) there will be GREAT TRIBULATION (Satan’s wrath before the Day of the Lord and God’s wrath), such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened (the days of the GREAT TRIBULATION), no flesh would be saved (delivered); but for the elect's sake (God’s chosen ones or those who are truly saved) those days will be shortened (before the rapture of God’s chosen ones before the Day of the Lord).
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect (in other words it is not possible to deceive God’s chosen ones).
25 See, I have told you beforehand.