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Genesis 1:26 is a lame proof-text for the Trinity! Why do trinitarian apologists keep using this antiquated argument?
Feb 27, 2022 13:23:08   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/23/does-genesis-126-prove-a-multiplicity-of-persons-in-god/

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Feb 27, 2022 16:56:14   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
troysal wrote:
https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/23/does-genesis-126-prove-a-multiplicity-of-persons-in-god/

You use the first book in the Bible. I’ll use the last.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:1-6

John writes: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come. The consistent salutation of Paul in all his letters to churches was "grace and peace." In his personal letters to Timothy and Titus he added "mercy." Peter too used this form of greeting to the saints.

But in Revelation, this greeting from divine Persons becomes a benediction. It could be considered ironic that the book of Revelation in which are heard the thunderings of divine judgment on earth opens with the word "grace," that speaks of unmerited favor towards mankind. The book in which the gathering armies is prophesied opens with the stillness of a heavenly benediction "grace to you and peace". These words define the heritage of believers despite the conditions around.

And the source of the grace and peace which comes to men is God. Three statements unfold tremendous truth concerning God. The threefold repetition of the preposition "from" shows the triune God in operation in redemptive purpose. The statements may be set out as follows:

• From Him who is and who was and who is to come (v. 4b)
• From the seven Spirits who are before His throne (v. 4c)
• From Jesus Christ ... (v. 5)

When you see the seven spirits, it's talking about the perfect Spirit (capital S), the complete Spirit. So, the seven Spirits (capital S) here mean the Holy Spirit that is before the throne of God. And the reason I take it that way is because we have in verse 4b “from Him who is and who was and who is to come,” that's God the Father. And then you have the Holy Spirit, the seven Spirits who are before his throne in the beginning of verse 5. And from Jesus Christ.

So. what do you see here? You see our Triune God. Unlike anyone else ever. Within deity: unity, eternity and equality with individuality. You have one essence of God made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

• The father is not the son and the spirit.
• And the son is not the father and the spirit.
• And the spirit is not the father and the son.

But they are all of one essence. And what else do you see? You see them right there, all around the throne. The one who is, and who was, and who is to come with the Holy spirit and Jesus Christ. And they are all in community together as they always have been.

And when we see this, we see that the gospel is paramount and central throughout the book. So where do you see the gospel? You see it from Jesus Christ. So, how does the book start off talking about Jesus Christ? The faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, the ruler over the kings of the earth, the one who loved us and washed us from our sins.

How?

By his blood. Is that not the gospel, or what? Let's start there and we'll work our way backwards.

• Jesus Christ is the only one that can forgive you of your sins.
• Jesus Christ is the only one that can make your dead life alive.
• Jesus Christ is the only one that can present you to the father, God.

There is no other way. And it's only through his blood. To reject Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is to reject God. There are no other gods. He is the King of Kings, he is the Lord of Lords. He is the one who sets us free, not only from the penalty of our sin, but from the power of our sin. And ultimately from the presence of our sin.

He is God. He is the only way. And that is the only way that you can know Christ, is through the gospel. That's the gospel. You can only call yourself a Christian if you’ve turned from your sin, turned to Christ, and by grace, have received everything that God has for you. Not by anything you've ever done, but all by his grace because of his sovereign mercy in your life.

That's the gospel. Who's Jesus? He's the only one that can set you free from your sin. He's the only one that can deliver you from the judgment that's coming. He's the only one that can present you faultless before the father. And there are no other gods.

What else is he? He's the ruler of the kings of the earth. We live in a day and age where people are living in fear based upon who's in office. It doesn't matter, Jesus Christ is ruler over ALL! And you need to know that. You need to know that, because Jesus is part of a monarchy. He's not an elected official. And when he comes back and establishes his kingdom, there is no voting.

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Feb 27, 2022 18:00:36   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Parky60 You said:
The consistent salutation of Paul in all his letters to churches was "grace and peace."

Right. And in every salutation he makes a clear distinction between God, whom he identifies as the Father, and Jesus the Messiah.

You said:
But in Revelation, this greeting from divine Persons becomes a benediction.

You are just reading your presupposition of trinitarianism into the text. It doesn't actually say that.

You said:
When you see the seven spirits, it's talking about the perfect Spirit (capital S), the complete Spirit. So, the seven Spirits (capital S) here mean the Holy Spirit that is before the throne of God.

Again, you are simply reading your predilections into the text. By what logic does "seven spirits" become the Holy Spirit? The fact that these seven spirits are before the throne of God destroys your assertion that they represent the HS. To be "before the throne" is a position of worship and service toward the one who sits on the throne. In the Revelation the 24 elders are before the throne, as is the great multitude in ch. 7, as are angels, as are th 144,000 in ch. 14, as are all the dead to be judged in ch. 20. All of these are created beings who are in submission to God. If the HS is a co-equal member of the Godhead why is he being pictured, from your perspective, beofre the throne of God instead of on the throne?

When John mentions Jesus Christ in v. 5 note that he doesn't ascribe deity to him but says he is "the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth." Please note also, that all through the book Jesus, the Lamb, is never seen sitting on the throne, but is always distinct from Him who sits on the throne.

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Feb 27, 2022 18:23:59   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
troysal wrote:
Parky60 You said:
The consistent salutation of Paul in all his letters to churches was "grace and peace."

Right. And in every salutation he makes a clear distinction between God, whom he identifies as the Father, and Jesus the Messiah.

You said:
But in Revelation, this greeting from divine Persons becomes a benediction.

You are just reading your presupposition of trinitarianism into the text. It doesn't actually say that.

You said:
When you see the seven spirits, it's talking about the perfect Spirit (capital S), the complete Spirit. So, the seven Spirits (capital S) here mean the Holy Spirit that is before the throne of God.

Again, you are simply reading your predilections into the text. By what logic does "seven spirits" become the Holy Spirit? The fact that these seven spirits are before the throne of God destroys your assertion that they represent the HS. To be "before the throne" is a position of worship and service toward the one who sits on the throne. In the Revelation the 24 elders are before the throne, as is the great multitude in ch. 7, as are angels, as are th 144,000 in ch. 14, as are all the dead to be judged in ch. 20. All of these are created beings who are in submission to God. If the HS is a co-equal member of the Godhead why is he being pictured, from your perspective, beofre the throne of God instead of on the throne?

When John mentions Jesus Christ in v. 5 note that he doesn't ascribe deity to him but says he is "the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth." Please note also, that all through the book Jesus, the Lamb, is never seen sitting on the throne, but is always distinct from Him who sits on the throne.
Parky60 You said: br The consistent salutation of ... (show quote)

I'm not going to get in a debate. You're free to believe what you want to believe by making the text what you want to believe. I'm indwelt by the Holy Spirit and He teaches me what I need to know and He does not lie. Who are you indwelt by and who do you believe?

But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ. 1 John 2:27

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Feb 28, 2022 16:38:32   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
troysal wrote:
Topic: Genesis 1:26 is a lame proof-text for the Trinity! Why do trinitarian apologists keep using this antiquated argument?
https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2022/02/23/does-genesis-126-prove-a-multiplicity-of-persons-in-god/


Could you please point to any Scripture (all dated 2,000+ years ago) that does not meet the true definition of "antiquated [very old, aged]?"


"Defend the doctrines handed down once for all to the Saints" (Jude 1:3). As commanded, Christian Apologists quote from the Scriptures, for as it is written, Scripture interprets Scripture. (II Peter 1:20-21)

"Scriptura sui ipsius interpres" [Scripture is its own interpreter] is the fundamental principle of biblical interpretation.

The Bible tells us repeatedly to 'Take on the whole Counsel of God." (Acts 20:26-27) This means the entire Bible, all of the old, old Scriptures.


Genesis 1:26

And God said, "let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Gill's Exposition [1746-63]:

"These words are directed not to the earth, out of which man was made; nor to the angels, who are not of
God's privy council, nor are the words spoken after the manner of kings; since such a way of speaking did
not obtain very early, not even till the close of the Old Testament: but they are spoken by God the Father to the
Son and Holy Ghost, who were each of them concerned in the creation of all things, and particularly of man."

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Feb 28, 2022 17:28:54   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Zemirah,

You need to read more carefully before you respond. I said the argument was antiquated not the scripture.And as for the Gill quote, so what, that is one man's obviously biased opinion. I quoted 7 scholars, and mentioned 2 others, all trinitarians, who disagree with Gill, and I could have quoted more. It is an outdated argument that most OT scholars today would not make; those are the facts.

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Feb 28, 2022 19:19:21   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Look at your own writing, Troy, you can not say one without saying the other.

What is it that you claim to be an "antiquated" argument, and a lame proof-text for the Trinity?

It is Genesis 1:26, the very word of God.

We both speak, write and understand English.

Being "quoted" as a Bible Scholar means nothing.

What do the scholars of "today" know, and how do they know it?

A contributor to Christianity Today, the default publication of the Evangelical Left, questioned the veracity of the Bible on the grounds that not enough black people helped translate its various English versions...

18th century theologian and Biblical scholar, John Gill (23 November 1697 - 14 October 1771), whom I quote, with confidence that he knows of what he speaks. Born in Kettering, Northamptonshire, he attended Kettering Grammar School where he mastered the Latin classics and learned Greek by age 11.

Gill soon became a Hebrew scholar without equal in his day. William Cathcart said: "It is within bounds to say that no man in the eighteenth century was so well versed in the literature and customs of the ancient Jews as John Gill."

His works are full of priceless Hebrew gems of information that are found nowhere except in the ancient Old Testament era writings of the Jews.

Gill’s Bible Commentary is among the very first verse-by-verse commentaries of the Bible. It is the largest Bible commentary written by a single person... no computer, not even a typewriter.

John Gill’s works were among Charles Spurgeon’s (who preached at Gill's London church 100 years after him) personal favorites.

Through a lifetime of intense study under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he learned the messianic beliefs of the earliest recorded Jewish sages. He learned their understanding of the Scriptures, of who and what God was and wasn't, at a time (18th century) few cared what the ancient Jews' understanding had been in earliest Judaism, - before being corrupted by their desire for personal power, and adding multitudinous man-made rules to those of God.

Another subject: I believe Isaiah 11:2, more than any other Scripture, enumerates and names the mysterious seven spirits of God you were debating earlier.

Isaiah said: "And the 1) Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the 2) Spirit of wisdom and 3) understanding, the 4) Spirit of counsel and 5) might, the 6) Spirit of knowledge and the 7) fear of the Lord."

If you have a problem with the 7th, "the fear of the Lord," realize these are all attributes of the Holy Spirit.

The 7th attribute of the Holy Spirit - "the fear of the Lord" convicted people of their unholiness and need for repentance, and in the New Testament era guides them to receiving Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.


troysal wrote:
Zemirah,

You need to read more carefully before you respond. I said the argument was antiquated not the scripture.And as for the Gill quote, so what, that is one man's obviously biased opinion. I quoted 7 scholars, and mentioned 2 others, all trinitarians, who disagree with Gill, and I could have quoted more. It is an outdated argument that most OT scholars today would not make; those are the facts.

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