rumitoid

Below is a cut and paste from http://www.patheos.com/blogs/cultivare/2014/09/adam-and-science-a-possible-compromise/ It has some failings, meaning it is not a perfect possible scenario, yet it does, or should, offer Christians ways of reconciling their beliefs and science. I am not saying that Christians have to manipulate scripture so as to fit the science but just that the science does not necessarily contradict the word of God on the subject of our origins.

"Hominids evolved as evolutionary theory describes. They arrived at a point when all biological and social capabilities were in place. However, because of theological ignorance, they were innocent before God, just as animals. They had no more genuine morality than animals do.

"At a point in time of God’s choosing, when the race was biologically and sociologically ready, God chose a couple, Adam and Eve, to receive his “breath of life”. In other words, God initiated a relational covenant with them that set them apart as people made in his image to have a special relationship with him, one another, and the world. This was not a biological change, but a relational/covenantal change. This introduced the possibility of obedience or disobedience, harmony or disharmony, love or self-centeredness.

"For the initial moment, the covenant was just between Adam and Eve. However, Adam and Eve were already in some form of community relationship with their group, who were not yet in covenant with God. They were meant to be ambassadors through whom the rest of humanity would come into a relationship with God. (Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?) This means that wh**ever pattern they started, whether one of obedience or disobedience, the human community of which they were pioneers would follow them.

"Original sin, then, is less about inheriting guilt than being out of fellowship with God. Starting with the original pair who disobeyed God, humanity has been living out the relational part of the enemies of God rather than being on his side. However, this is mitigated by God’s continuous grace whereby he pursues all people. The reality of God’s gracious initiative to all in one sense puts all of us back in the position of Adam and Eve, for whom a choice is real.

"Although death would of course have been present in nature for the previous billions of years rather than emerging as a consequence to the fall, it was the disobedience of humanity that caused the problem of spiritual death, which is separation from God. At the time that God initiated the relational covenant with Adam and Eve, God had produced his finished (but not final) creation through the evolutionary process. In other words, it had reached a high point predestined by God, although not the final peak. This needed to be accomplished through relationships with free creatures made in his image, in spite all of the strife and travail that would accompany their freedom. The fall, then introduced damage to the rest of creation, because without a right relationship with God, humanity could not have the relationship of nurturing vice-regency over nature which God had intended.

"Although death, disease, and disasters were part of the world at the time of Genesis, they would not have been matters of fear and sorrow if people had remained near to God, and in fact, they may have learned to subdue them to an extent by living through his power. So indeed, creation groans for the Children of God to be revealed, as Paul says in Romans."

Ve'hoe

Reasonable,,, just not provable fact,,,, same as any other explanation,,,,

That a "theory" is reasonable doesn't make it true,,, nor does it diminish the science,,, but it has no more merit,, if unprovable,,, than any other theory, and one should keep their eyes open,,,

Putting on blinders one way or the other, keeps you from seeing the big picture,,, which is why I believe we have so much trouble with the current fossil record, and speciation theories,,,,,, we are looking in the wrong place,,

And yes, I do not know the right place, otherwise I would be rich, and not talking on OPP.

If you decide, one theory is superior, you put on blinders,,, which has happened in scientific circles,,, every time whether the blinders are religious, or g****l w*****g hysteria.. or wh**ever

rumitoid

Well put. For some Christians, Genesis is a literal account. But why? Nowhere are we instructed to take it as literal. Someone says in the Church that a "day" is a thousand years but God never said that, and that leads to all manner of absurdities. The Creationist account has nothing whatsoever to do with what Christ asked of us or what is necessary to salvation. What's the fuss?

Ve'hoe

If God, indeed was a space man,,,, what difference would it make?

He is still smarter than us,,, and yes, we need instructions for living,,, I think especially OPP shows that.

And as we get older, the scriptures say different things,,, that is NOT a factor of man getting smarter or more steeped in wisdom,, it is a resigned cynicism, that tempers a man,,,once he figures out, that his control of life was the illusion, and most of what he thought was wrong,,, there is a secret to happiness,, and you obtain it by simplification,, not complication.

Trick is, you have to figure out what makes you happy,,and be satisfied with it. Just that simple,, and just that hard.

rumitoid

I agree. About a year ago, I read a book that talked about first and second half of life. Meanings and actions are different, almost seemingly opposed. When young, we gather; older, it is about letting go. The main point is that the spiritual is for all ages and it is best described in what happens in Second Half Life.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I am going to give you some food for thought. It is not intended to sway anyone's opinion or beliefs. Only some simple thoughts. Now go get your bible and follow along.
The error in modern day Christians is thinking that the OT is their history. It is not. The Genesis of the OT is the creation of the Hebrews. I am not saying that Gentiles are somehow inferior. I am saying that they were the product of evolution. It is clear that there were other hominids or man like creations at the time Adam and Eve were created.

One has to be aware that the reason for the OT, the history of Hebrews was necessary. Genesis was written to establish God as the creator and Supreme Being and to provide a genealogy of Hebrews. Other humans are only vaguely referenced, but there is reference to them.

Let us start with the creation story:

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have d******n over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have d******n over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

After terraforming the earth, God put man and animal in the garden of Eden and told mankind to be fruitful and replenish the earth. Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden and had perfect bodies. Had there been no sin, then they would still be alive and the rest of the Bible would not have been written. But, they sinned and so God established a plan, and that plan is still unfolding.

Genesis 2:5-7:
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

It is documented, and there are skeletal remains to verify that the first humanoids were h****r/gathers, not gardeners or farmers. In Genesis 2:5-7 it is specific, there being no man to till the ground. In other words, there were no farmers. Had Adam and Eve been the first and only creations, then the art of cultivation would have been passed on to their decedents.

Moving forward, Genesis 4:13-15
And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

And the LORD said unto him, therefore whosever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should k**l him.

This begs the question. If the only people alive were Adam, Eve, and their children, who was Cain so afraid of? Was it his siblings? Cain was the first to commit murder, it would be highly unlikely that his siblings would hunt him down and k**l him; after all they would have been privy to the punishment of God on Cain for murder. It would be highly unlikely that they would want the same treatment. Was it he feared his own children? Not a possibility if there were no other people, he would have been alone and not able to reproduce. So, what made him so afraid? Why would God find it necessary to mark him so “whosoever slayeth Cain” would be avenged sevenfold by God himself?

Genesis 4: 16-17
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son Enoch.

Summary:
The OT is not a genealogy of gentiles, but a history of the Hebrew. The book of Genesis was an establishment of a single God, an all knowing creator. God created Adam and Eve, his first Hebrews. There were other hominids alive and moving about the earth as proved by anthropology and science. Also, the bible speaks of them in generalized terms.

Science has explained much about the early man. One thing that it has not explained is the sudden changes in intelligence. Early man were h****rs/gathers, they did not farm or read or write. Then there was a jump in intelligence. There are several convincing, knowledgeable answers to this jump. Joshua Engel says it was a feedback loop: the smarter we got, the more useful being smart became. James Pitt says it was because we learned to cook, enabling us to sustain a much more energetically costly lifestyle. Gillis Danielsen points out that we k**led off all the hominids that had intermediate intelligence. And Steve Harris suggests that sexual se******n was crucial.

The t***h is, whilst these are all good, important ideas and probably correct, we don't really know what the underlying trigger(s) were that initially caused our dramatic increase in brain size.

So, indeed science and creation are not in conflict. The Bible is not in conflict with science; the OT is a specific history of a unique religion, society, and a people that were called Hebrew.

Armageddun Loc: The show me state

If I understand your theory you are saying in effect that the whole world is Jewish; As the world was destroyed by the flood, all who came next would be descendants of Noah and his children?

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Yes and No. Let me explain, before the flood there was only one people. Regardless if they were sons and daughters of Adam and Eve or Cain and his spouse. Notice when Cain was sent away, he went to Nod. No connotation of morals are labeled on Nod, it was just designated as East of Eden. God did not make a distinction of Hebrew and Gentile yet. Nor did God label any nation as good or evil, black or white, or even red or yellow. Not until he saw his creation doing all kinds of things that was unsavory. That is why he destroyed the people, exception of Noah and his family. There are two lines of thought on this whose bloodline the Hebrews came from, and you will see notations in the bible, that of Seth. His line was carefully recorded. No reason is given. The other line of thought, the one I believe is Abram was the first to be separated out and selected by God. Abram, also called Abraham is the first to receive God's promise and separated out from the other nations or goy.

rumitoid

As to Cain, it was said he was condemned (commanded) to live a rambling life, yet his story in the Bible has him effectively establishing the first city...and no more is heard of him.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

Actually the bible does not say that Cain was condemned. Here is the quote from Genesis, where it said Cain was cursed.

10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.
11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.
12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”
13 Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is more than I can bear.
14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will k**l me.”
15 But the LORD said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who k**ls Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would k**l him.
16 So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.
17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.
20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock.
21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes.
22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of[c] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.

At the end of the story of Cain, there is a linage in the Torah. The names of the children and their children....goes on for a bit. What we do know is Cain established the gods of Babylon. That is clear in reading the bible.

A year or so ago I read an article, and I copied part of it into my "learning journal" that I keep for things that I do not understand. The article was written by a Rabbi, Fohman. I will share this, now mind you it is only his view based on available information.

"The children of Lemech are the last descendants of Cain that the world will ever know. The great flood -- the ultimate destruction of humanity -- is right around the corner. A glimmer of hope, though, beckons to humanity.

Right after the Torah finishes telling us of Cain's seven generations of descendants -- indeed, immediately after Lemech's disastrous pronouncement of "seventy-seven times vengeance" -- the Torah tells us something fascinating. We hear of a second chain of generations, which begins with the birth of a child named Shet (see Genesis 4:25). Shet was a third son born to Eve, a son born after Cain k**led Abel, and the text tells us that Shet, in Eve's mind, constituted a replacement of sorts for her murdered son, Abel (see 4:25). Interestingly, the list of Shet's descendants is introduced with the words: These are the generations of Adam -- as if to say, somehow, that these are the real generations of Adam. And they really are. After all, Abel was murdered and had no children. Cain's children are wiped out after seven generations in the great flood. It is really only this last child, Shet, who allows the generations of Adam to continue in perpetuity. For, as the verses go on to tell us, Noah -- the saving remnant of humanity -- is a descendant of Shet.

Strangely, as you begin to go through them, the descendants of Shet sound a lot like the descendants of Cain. For example, Cain has a descendant named Metushael, and Shet has a descendant named Metushelech. Cain has a child by the name of Chanoch; and Shet has a descendant by the same name. Curiously, Shet's immediate offspring is a child named "Enosh," a word which has come to mean "man," and the child of Enosh is Keinan -- a word which seems a variation on Kayin/Cain. It is as if Shet's own line of heirs contains a mirror of Adam himself, and a mirror of Adam's son, Cain.

Well, it can't come as too much of a surprise that, seven generations after Enosh, this second Adam -- we are greeted with the birth of a child named... you guessed it, Lemech. (3) In case you missed the point, this second Lemech just happens to live to the ripe old age of -- seven hundred and seventy-seven years. So, when all is said and done, at seven generations, each line -- the line of Adam I and Adam II -- come to their apex. But whereas the first Lemech gives birth to Tuval Kayin, a son who becomes a partner in the destruction of life, the second Lemech gives birth to a son who will allow for the perpetuation of life. The child of Lemech II is a man by the name of Noah.

While the three sons of Lemech I die in a flood, the child of Lemech II builds an ark. And yet, while the children of Lemech I perish in that flood, the legacy of Lemech I is not erased entirely. One of his children, according to the sages, survives. According to the Midrash, Na'amah -- the sister of Tuval-Kayin -- becomes the wife of Noah.

So a daughter of Lemech I survives by marrying the son of Lemech II. In that union, humanity comes full circle. The doomed line of Cain merges with a spark of life from Shet -- the man who, according to Eve, was a replacement for Abel. At long last, the legacies of Cain and "replacement Abel" have come together, as a father from one line and a mother from the other unite to create Noah.

When we look back on Cain and his legacy, it is easy to disregard him; to feel that mankind is better off without having to deal with the wickedness he manifests. But evidently, Abel -- or his replacement -- is not enough of a foundation upon which to build a New World. Cain, for all the danger he brings to the table, is a necessary partner. Somehow, mankind needs the energies of both Cain and Abel -- ground, coupled with nothingness; possession, bound together with breath -- to move on, to build itself in perpetuity. And so it is that -- in the personhood of Noah and Naama -- under the life-saving roof of an ark, a fragmented humanity finally gains a semblance of unity, just as the storm-clouds of apocalypse gather on the horizon.

(1) In Hebrew, "metavel," or "one who perfects," is the verb form of the word "Tuval."
(2)The middle brother, Yuval, seemingly has no analogue in the Cain and Abel saga, in which there were only two brothers. We might speculate, though, that his name -- Yuval -- seems to be a cross between Tuval-Kayin and Yaval. Indeed, his craft -- the making of musical instruments, might be seen as a cross between the pastoral profession of shepherding, and the technological innovations of metallurgy and practical tool-making.
(3)In elaborating this point, Rashi notes a grammatical oddity in the verse in question and suggests that the phrase "whoever k**ls Cain / sevenfold he will be avenged" should actually be read as two entirely separate statements, one referring to avenging Cain -- the other, to avenging Abel. First, God states "whoever k**ls Cain...," and the rest of the thought is left unsaid, implying an unspoken threat: "Whoever k**ls Cain ... well, we won't even talk about what happens to him." As for the rest of the phrase, "sevenfold will he be avenged," Rashi suggests that this refers to the way Abel's k**ler will be avenged. That is, the verse is telling us that Cain will eventually have to pay with his life for k*****g Abel -- but that he has a seven-generation grace period before vengeance will do its ugly work."

On my behalf, I have not done the research on this. It is preceded by other things that I do not understand, and because I am a one step at a time person, I have not reached this point. I will get to it, just other things are before it on my list. So, I can not vouch for the quote of the Rabbi. I added it here, just for you and perhaps you have the time to do the research.

Ve'hoe

Interesting,,,, very good,,,,