rumitoid

Point One:
The two greatest commandments are to "Love your neighbor as yourself

---------------------------and like unto it---------------------------

Love God with ALL your heart, mind, soul, and strength." The love of neighbor appears on almost an equal footing with the love of God. The Rapture is said to come in the middle of the Tribulation (there is debate on this but when is off point), or what amounts to the worst possible time for the people on earth. It seems not to beg God to be left behind when your neighbors are experiencing terrible hardship and misery is "like unto" deserting God when the going gets tough. Our constant prayer must be to forgo the Rapture.

Point Two:
In Luke 17:34-35, Jesus says, “I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” This, along with Matthew24:40, seems an obvious support for the Rapture. Instead, as Benjamin Corey points out, when Jesus is asked where those taken will go, the answer is very disappointing: "“just look for the vultures, and you’ll find their bodies.” (v37)
In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking very plainly about the time of the temple's destruction, warning the people of how terrible Rome's retaliation will be: to be "taken' by them will mean death.

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/jesus-says-those-left-behind-are-the-lucky-ones-the-most-ironic-thing-the-movie-wont-tell-you/#ixzz3EIkOyvCf

cant beleve Loc: Planet Kolob

We need to always be prepared for the rapture. I am in the camp of pre trib. But just in case,I pray to be strong enough to go to mid or post if need be. If people think the news looks grim in Iraq and Syria for christians,wait till the tribulations begin. As they say " You ain't seen nothing yet" We will be sorely tested if it is mid-Post trib.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I am going to give you some food for thought. It is not intended to persuade you to either believe or not believe in the rapture, it is simply food for thought. No, I will not go into t***slations, this is intended to give you food for thought only. I do a lot of reading, and in particular on religions. I found a book, The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson that shines some light on this relatively modern day thinking, allow me to share some of the thoughts with you.

In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.

Irving is often referred to as “the father of modern Pentecostalism” began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical sk**ls and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism.

What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 — two years before Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speak­ing in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.

On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this, or perhaps because, she is supposed to have come under the “power” of the spirit. For hours she experienced manifestations of “mingled prophecy and vision.”

The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.

The Influence of John Darby

Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities. Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.

This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced. The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.” While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute t***h of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. By late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ’s coming was mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. Modern “Pentecostalism” had its birth.

These extraordinary and strange events so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ’s Advent would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly be any doubt that the visions and spiritual experiences of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. But belief in such paranormal experiences is dangerous, especially when they are contrary to scriptural teachings.

Now then, that is the history of how this, now widely accepted in some churches, belief was born. I will give you some scriptures for your reading enjoyment. Now mind you, I do not think that isolating a single verse is wise, I strongly believe that people should study the entire text to better their understanding.

Matthew 24 (37-46)
37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark
Here we are told that before Christ returns, it will be just like in the days of Noe. Then we are given a general description of what was happening at that time. There is a lot more to this than what is actually said. To understand this completely, we must go to Genesis and find out exactly what was happening at that time.

Genesis 6
1) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Here is the marrying that was spoken of by Jesus in the book of Matthew. I want you to notice how these sons of God are contrasted with men. In this verse, the Hebrew word that is t***slated God, is Elohim. This title is always used of God in relation to creation or as the creator. You can contrast this with God in verse 5 in which it is Jehovah. Jehovah is always used of God in terms of His covenant relationship with man. This will be relevant after we read the next two verses.
3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
We see here, that when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, giants were born in the earth. Now this is not normal. So I think it is fair to say, these sons of God are somehow different, than the men that daughters were born unto. The title, sons of God, or son of God (Elohim), is only used of Adam (Luke 3:38), who God created directly and of angels (Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7), that is, up until the time of Christ, through which we become a new creature and all things are of God (2 Cor.5:17). The word giants in the Hebrew dictionary is nephilim. It means fallen ones.
So we have here, a group referred to as the Sons of God, who are obviously given this title to set them apart from men, and we know from scripture that God, (Elohim), is only used as a title for God when he is the direct creator of an entity, as in angels or Adam. From this, we have to assume, God created these entities directly. Since there is only one record of God creating a man directly, Adam, then we have to assume these are angels. When we look again at the word nephilim, (fallen ones), it's no great stretch to draw the conclusion that these are fallen angels. This may seem outrageous but scripture further documents these assumptions. The book of Jude will tell us about these fallen angels and their sin with the daughters of men.

Jude
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
These two verses tell us about the angels leaving their habitation and compares their sin to that of Sodom and Gomorrah. It would be no great leap to give these the title "Fallen Angels", since they disobeyed God and would have fallen out of His Grace. It is also evident from verse 7, that their sin was that of fornication. Angels are not flesh, they are spirits, taking the daughters of men for wives, would be giving themselves over to strange flesh. This unnatural act would have caused an unnatural result, giants were born in the earth.. You can also read about the angels sin in 2 Peter chapter 2 (1-5).
The point of all of this, is that, this is what was happening during Noah's time, and Matthew tells us, it will happen this very same way again. These angels will be returning to the earth to take wives of the daughter's of men. To just further this point and give a second witness that this is true, let's go to 1 Corinthians Chapter 11.
4) Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5) But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
Here we are told it would be a dishonor for a woman to pray or prophesy with her head uncovered. Why? Verse 10 holds the answer.
10) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
The power the woman should have over her head is Christ. Why, because of the angels, they will be coming back! God sent the flood in Noah's time to destroy these unnatural nephilim. Noah was spared, because he was upright and his generations were perfect (Gen. 6:9). Noah's family had not mixed with the fallen angels or the giants. This mixing with the angels and their offspring was all plotted by Satan himself to corrupt the seed line in which Christ was to come. If he could have accomplished this God's word would have failed.
Now that we have determined the events that were happening to Noah, and will happen at the time of the end, we can establish a timeline. The angels do not appear on the earth until the sixth seal. Let's go read about that in Revelation chapter 6.

Revelation 6:12-13
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Angels are often referred to as stars in the Bible, here are just a few examples: (Rev. 1:20, Rev. 9:1, Dan. 8:10). Our goal here, is to see when the one will be taken and the one will be left behind. Let's go back to Matthew for a moment.
37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Notice here, that when one is taken and one is left, the marrying has already began. We can determine that the angels are already here taking the daughters of men as wives. We just read in the book of Revelation, that the angels are not here until the sixth seal. There is only one seal that has not been opened. If "Left Behind" is describing a rapture, then it is not a pre-trib rapture. The tribulation of antichrist has already began at this point. Let's read on and see if we can determine who is left behind, and who is taken.
Matthew 24
39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
I just want you to ask yourself one simple question about this verse. In the time of Noe, who was taken in the flood? Was it Noe, who was upright and just? No, it was those who weren't watching, those who didn't believe they had anything to watch for or to prepare for. Those who are taken are taken in a flood of lies and deception. This will be the flood of the end times and we can read about it in Daniel chapter 11.
20) Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
21) And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22) And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23) And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
Notice this vile person shall become strong with a small people. This is the little horn of Daniel 8:9, which is the antichrist. Satan doesn't come in like most people think, but rather he comes in peacefully and obtains the kingdom through flattery and deception. Words are his weapons, along with a few miracles he has the power to perform. He is very convincing and notice, "with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown". Just like in the days of Noe, only this flood comes out of the mouth of the serpent. We can read about that in Revelation 12:15.
15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Here we see this flood of lies and deception and it comes right out of his mouth. It's amazing how many e-mails we have received were people say there is no way a Christian could be deceived by Satan. If he can obtain rule over the whole world through his deception and flattery, it wouldn't be too smart to underestimate his ability to deceive you or me. We need to take this seriously and prepare ourselves.
44) Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Many will think Christ is already here because they have been taught He comes first. The antichrist comes first and he will be playing the role of Christ, his mission, to deceive you and me. See that this doesn't happen, let go of fables and find the t***h.
45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Notice the faithful and wise servant is found here on earth taking care of his household. He wasn't taken away in a rapture. We need to prepare ourselves and our family with the spiritual meat of the word. Let's just suppose for a moment, that this is talking about people who missed the rapture. How could they be called faithful and wise, as they are in verse 45, if the rapture were true? They would be very foolish and obviously not good caretakers of their household. We have to separate the false doctrines like the rapture from the word of God. If we do this we will be blessed when the Lord comes.

rumitoid

Thank you. I was aware of where and when the Rapture Movement started though not in such detail. I appreciate the effort. As my two points make fairly plain, I have a good deal of trouble with the doctrine of the Rapture. About a decade ago it just occurred to me what I mentioned in Point One: it seems an odd time for the stewards of the earth, ambassadors of God, holders of the The Great Commission, and those charged with to love their neighbors as themselves to abandoned the needy and lost, the least of these, at the world's darkest hour. For me, this insight seemed enough, yet a little more study back then appeared to strongly support it. Those notes are gone but then I stumbled on this piece in Point Two and was reminded to share my view.

This doctrine of the Rapture is so strongly held today it is tightly woven into the fabric of what it means to be a Christian by the mainstream Church. Unless specifically engaged for my honest opinion of that doctrine, and even then, I have found it merely creates friction and division and little else. Your closing verses pretty well sealed the deal: 45) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46) Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

I prepared these remarks for Can't Believe based on her comment. I read your topic and and understood your points of view. That is why I did not address you regarding this relatively new doctrine. My intent was to provide simple food for thought, not to be persuasive or to contradict a personal conviction that is part of her fundamental belief. I thought that I had addressed that in my opening remarks. If I failed, I will go back and reassert my intent.

I have my opinions and your description of "stewards of earth......" but, this is not the thread to go into that. Perhaps one day you will develop your views and post it for comment.

rumitoid

My bad for commenting. Just a few small points, however: I did not describe "stewards of the earth," I merely used a phrase from Psalm115:16 (God created the earth and He has graciously given this incredible gift to man as a dwelling place. We are to be good stewards of the earth and it's resources; not ..."); a supporting verse can be found at 1 Corinthians 4:2 ("Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful...") Perhaps one day in the far, far distant future I will develop my views but until then "stewards of the earth" was just one moniker of the faithful in a list
of monikers.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

No, not really it is your topic and you are the one responsible for guiding it in the direction of the topic and not allow people like myself to hijack it.

Late in my Papa's life we did a study from all sources on the meaning of stewards of our lands, children, and the Earth in general. I will look for his notes. It was an in-depth study and quite long. He was even more long winded than I if you can believe that. I remember much of what he wrote, but I could never find the phrases as eloquent as his.

rumitoid

I am not getting your point about "stewards of the earth." In using that phrase I was saying it seemed very odd to me that a) when the planet was under its greatest threat the very God that gave this job to the faithful would take them when this work was most needed and b) that any of the faithful would be willing to desert the world in such dire straits.

wuzblynd Loc: thomson georgia

I read a few books other than the bible. My favorite is a man called Watchman Nee. I have no real clue about the rapture. Some say we are raptured before the tribulation some say not and we will be here during that ugly time. Watchman Nee says that the only ones who will be raptured are the overcoming Christians who are watching and waiting for Him. He believes the rest will have to experience the tribulation. Again I don't have a clue .but I have been very impressed with this servant of God.

rich boise Loc: Idaho

I have a little different take on the tribulation. I believe it is tied to the seventieth week from the prophecy of Daniel. I believe that GOD returns His focus (in dealing with humanity) to Israel. I also believe that even as GOD is pouring out judgment on the nations He is still asking, perhaps you could say begging, people to repent. Either way, GOD is truly great. He wishes that none would perish, and this world, as is, is not my home.

wuzblynd Loc: thomson georgia

Amen bro! I know nothing. It is my hope and prayer for Gods perfect will for my life and the lives of my children family and my brothers and sisters in christ be accomplished. See ya on the streets of glory!!!

robby1

The Temple in Jerusalem was a manmade Temple. God said, He doesn't live in a house built by man. That whole deal with the Temple was a Spiritual picture of the Temple God is building. God let the Temple in Jerusalem be destroyed. The Spiritual Temple will last forever.

rumitoid

Agreed, and that is why all the wars mentioned in the OT and the need to physically defend "the kingdom" are no longer necessary. It is spiritual. The one and only defense is love.

Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone

People often argue this. Did God command that a temple be built. He commanded a mishkan, a type of portable place to house the covenant. Remember that these were travelers after leaving Egypt. A permanent house was never a consideration. It was not until King Solomon that God allowed a temple to be constructed. 1 Chronicles 17:11, 12: “It shall come to pass ... that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.” This prophecy given to King David says his offspring will build the temple. Later, in 1 Chronicles 28:6, God reaffirms, “Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts.”


My thoughts on rebuilding the Temple, well let us consider that the area where the Temple stood is now impure. To enter such a place is punishable. Let us say that, we are able to purify the grounds, now we have another issue. That is the placement of the alter. The design and placement of the alter is very important because God himself made it clear where it should stand. No one has those blueprints. This was problematic when the Temple was rebuilt. When they built the Second Holy Temple, they had to find reliable witnesses who could testify to the exact spot. They found three such witnesses, the prophets Haggai, Zephaniah and Malachi, but we don't have any prophets or witnesses today. Thus, until a prophet comes and tells us where to build the Altar (among many other things we need to know first), we cannot build the Holy Altar. Okay, let us say that a prophet comes and tells us where to build the alter, and we find a pure Cohen for building, we encounter the next problem. Our next problem is that we must appoint a High Priest, or all Service is forbidden. To appoint a High Priest, we need a Sanhedrin, which is a body of 71 ordained rabbis acting as the Supreme Court of the People Of Israel. We cannot assemble a Sanhedrin, because the Sanhedrin must consist of rabbis ordained with the Mosaic Ordination, which was t***smitted from Rabbi to Rabbi since Moses. However, the Mosaic Ordination ceased to exist in the year 358 C.E. because of the persecutions Constantinius perpetrated upon the Jews. There are yet other problems, such as Laws involving the Priestly Garments, the exact measurements of the Temple area, and many, many more, all of which demand as yet undiscovered answers.

And there are other types of concerns as well. The Torah does not even consider it a requirement on our part to rebuild the Holy Temple until most or all the Children of Israel live in the land of Israel. And there is also the matter of the Return of the Ten Tribes to consider, which will be part of our Final Redemption.

When these things have taken place, and we have made lasting peace with our enemies; when all Jews have returned to the Holy Land of Israel, and religious Jews have complete temporal and religious control over the land, then we will know that our Final Redemption has begun, and we can then turn our thoughts towards rebuilding the Holy Temple.

We have a tradition that Elijah the Prophet will arrive and reveal himself to us before the Advent of the Messiah. He will arrive and answer all questions and resolve all doubts. He will reveal to us which families are definitely Cohanim. And he is a recipient of the Ordination Of Moses and can therefore restore the Sanhedrin. And he will bring peace to the world. The time of the arrival of the Messiah is not known. About this there is a saying, "Those who know, don't say; those who say, don't know."

Nothing is impossible for God. What I am saying is that rebuilding the Temple will be quite the event.

References:

1. Mogen Avrohom Orach Chayim 561:2

2. Numbers 19:1-22. For a deeper discussion of the actual Laws and rituals of this process, see Maimonides, Yad, Purity, the first two divisions: The Laws of Impurities, and the Laws of the Red Heifer.

3. Maim. Yad, Laws of Sacrifices 19:1

4. Responsa of the Chasam Sofer, Orach Chayim Responsum 208, based on B.T. Zevachim 62a

5. Babylonian Talmud, Yevamos 74b. See also Rav Hai Gaon, Succah, near the end.

6. Maim. Yad, Laws of Entering the Temple 4:15

7. Maim. Yad, Laws of the Utensils of the Temple 4:15

8. Maim. Yad, Laws of Sanhedrin 4:1

9. Zemach Dovid 4118

10. Babylonian Talmud, Eruvin 43b

11. Babylonian Talmud Pesachim 13a

12. Mishnayos Eduyos 8:7

13. Maimonides, Introduction to Yad

14. Volume Five, Section "Laws Regarding the Land of Israel," Responsum 351

rumitoid

In the NT, each soul belonging to God is a temple. The physical kingdom has been replaced by a spiritual one. Love of enemy was not possible when a physical kingdom existed; just the opposite is true now that a spiritual kingdom of God exists. Prayer and meditation are the sword and armor today. Or that is as I see it.