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Oct 12, 2021 09:54:18   #
Singularity
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I've never understood the whole appeal for authoritarian leaders (read cult leaders.) In the last few days, I've come to a conclusion that is hard to stomach, but which, on thinking about it, is perfectly sound.
The average followers of a dictator are motivated by one basic principle … that they are not responsible for their own lives and/or actions and their leader determines these.
So where does this basic concept come from?
If you take a look at many of the organizations (both political and religious), they are headed by a single figure … pope, pastor, president, cult leader, etc. That figure determines the dogma for the organization and the requirement for membership. That figure can also encompass non-human form, such as God, Mohammed, Rama, Buddha or any other astral deity that you care to name.
Given that we, as children, are many times brought up in one of these authoritarian structures, both religious and social, we've been conditioned to do that kind of thinking. Kids in the Scouting programs look up to and obey the Scoutmasters; in Sunday School, they are taught that the leader/pastor/teacher is the font of knowledge for their sect and that their deity is ultimately the absolute authority for them.
This idea of shifting responsibility for one's own actions and decisions to an authority figure is deeply rooted in our society … indeed, for probably all societies worldwide. This includes ideology inculcated at an early age, which is almost impossible to alter or eradicate.
I once had a conversation with an honest Catholic priest about his religion and parochial schools. His statement has stayed with me for over fifty years … "Give me a child until they are six years old, and I'll give you a Catholic for life." The same procedure will work for any religion or ideology.
People are taught to accept the authority in wh**ever organization, and not question that authority. It's a fact of life for any society and is almost impossible to contain. Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said (paraphrased) … "Tell a lie often enough, and the public will eventually believe it."
Is there a remedy for these adverse ideologies gaining power or controlling a society? Yes there is … but it has been almost eradicated in our educational systems for the last fifty years. It's called "critical thinking."
It has been suppressed for one overriding reason … no authority wants to be questioned in it's dogma. I understand that. But that suppression leads to false narratives that are espoused by proponents of their way of thinking, without regard to t***h or reason. It creates a society of sheep that follows the leader … or the lemmings that go on instinct over the cliff to their deaths.
Critical thinking means at its core that everything is to be questioned as to its veracity until it can be proven with evidence or factual conclusions.
The current flap over CRT (Critical Race Theory) is a classic example of this lack of reasonable investigation. It seeks to paper over the factual history of s***ery in the United States, and its unsettling consequences that exist to the present day. The facts are plain and simple … s***ery existed way before the founding of the nation and was a part of colonial life. It wasn't called s***ery as such most of the time. Such terms as "indentured servant" and others were common in colonial America … and were accepted as part of the social structure. To deny this, and other ways of subjecting people to involuntary servitude have existed throughout American history and cannot be denied.
Those that choose to deny this documented history want to paint a rosy picture for white settlers and citizens to avoid the perceived responsibility for creating the system that promotes white people and attempts to suppress minority citizens … be they black, brown, yellow or anything but white Anglo-Saxon Protestant stock. Note the exclusion of Catholics from the political system until John Kennedy was elected president.
Even some of those same white immigrants suffered the same fate. Cue the Irish that were escaping the Great Potato Famine in the nineteenth century who were sentenced to menial jobs for years before the Polish immigrants arrived to take their place. The Chinese immigrants of the 1850's, once they finished building much of the t***scontinental railroad, were ghettoized and relegated to menial jobs. Such is the environment of s******c r****m.
Of course, the total non-taught history of what the white settlers did to the Native American population is one of the greater tragedies that we have participated in. In most cases, it was out and out genocide. Included in this s******c r****m is the Spanish treatment of California Indians by the priests of Junipero Serra's Catholic invasion with Cortez and C****ado. The list goes on … and we are not taught the history accurately and without bias. As Joe Friday of D**gnet fame kept saying … "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Unfortunately, history is largely written by the victors of any war or movement, so many of the facts as to what actually happened are lost in the fog of history, but those that remain must not be ignored or altered.
Is it too late to counter this suppression of critical thinking in our society? Critical thinking has always been rejected by religionists and those that would attempt to gain and keep political power. It may be too late to reinstitute this idea of examining everything and being critical of established institutions. Colleges and universities have long been the targets of these political institutions as being radical and opposing established norms. CRT is just the latest evolution of this movement against examining things as they are, and not obscured by rhetoric and dogma.
It is not possible to resurrect this critical thinking in anyone over the age of twenty or so, possibly earlier, but maybe in three or four generations (if we teach critical thinking early enough), we may begin to get a society based on rational thought. I hope that critical thinking can be resurrected and made a part of educational curriculum, but it may be too late … in which case we would have to start over with a society built from the ground up.
I've never understood the whole appeal for authori... (show quote)


Over the past couple weeks, I've been mulling over the question of how much of our human reactions, thoughts, behaviors and beliefs are truly flexible or malleable enough to be constrained or improved by effortful (wishful?) thinking.

https://youtu.be/ORthzIOEf30

Been listening to his Stanford lecture series...

Reply
Oct 12, 2021 14:15:26   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: luxurious exile
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I've never understood the whole appeal for authoritarian leaders (read cult leaders.) In the last few days, I've come to a conclusion that is hard to stomach, but which, on thinking about it, is perfectly sound.
The average followers of a dictator are motivated by one basic principle … that they are not responsible for their own lives and/or actions and their leader determines these.
So where does this basic concept come from?
If you take a look at many of the organizations (both political and religious), they are headed by a single figure … pope, pastor, president, cult leader, etc. That figure determines the dogma for the organization and the requirement for membership. That figure can also encompass non-human form, such as God, Mohammed, Rama, Buddha or any other astral deity that you care to name.
Given that we, as children, are many times brought up in one of these authoritarian structures, both religious and social, we've been conditioned to do that kind of thinking. Kids in the Scouting programs look up to and obey the Scoutmasters; in Sunday School, they are taught that the leader/pastor/teacher is the font of knowledge for their sect and that their deity is ultimately the absolute authority for them.
This idea of shifting responsibility for one's own actions and decisions to an authority figure is deeply rooted in our society … indeed, for probably all societies worldwide. This includes ideology inculcated at an early age, which is almost impossible to alter or eradicate.
I once had a conversation with an honest Catholic priest about his religion and parochial schools. His statement has stayed with me for over fifty years … "Give me a child until they are six years old, and I'll give you a Catholic for life." The same procedure will work for any religion or ideology.
People are taught to accept the authority in wh**ever organization, and not question that authority. It's a fact of life for any society and is almost impossible to contain. Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said (paraphrased) … "Tell a lie often enough, and the public will eventually believe it."
Is there a remedy for these adverse ideologies gaining power or controlling a society? Yes there is … but it has been almost eradicated in our educational systems for the last fifty years. It's called "critical thinking."
It has been suppressed for one overriding reason … no authority wants to be questioned in it's dogma. I understand that. But that suppression leads to false narratives that are espoused by proponents of their way of thinking, without regard to t***h or reason. It creates a society of sheep that follows the leader … or the lemmings that go on instinct over the cliff to their deaths.
Critical thinking means at its core that everything is to be questioned as to its veracity until it can be proven with evidence or factual conclusions.
The current flap over CRT (Critical Race Theory) is a classic example of this lack of reasonable investigation. It seeks to paper over the factual history of s***ery in the United States, and its unsettling consequences that exist to the present day. The facts are plain and simple … s***ery existed way before the founding of the nation and was a part of colonial life. It wasn't called s***ery as such most of the time. Such terms as "indentured servant" and others were common in colonial America … and were accepted as part of the social structure. To deny this, and other ways of subjecting people to involuntary servitude have existed throughout American history and cannot be denied.
Those that choose to deny this documented history want to paint a rosy picture for white settlers and citizens to avoid the perceived responsibility for creating the system that promotes white people and attempts to suppress minority citizens … be they black, brown, yellow or anything but white Anglo-Saxon Protestant stock. Note the exclusion of Catholics from the political system until John Kennedy was elected president.
Even some of those same white immigrants suffered the same fate. Cue the Irish that were escaping the Great Potato Famine in the nineteenth century who were sentenced to menial jobs for years before the Polish immigrants arrived to take their place. The Chinese immigrants of the 1850's, once they finished building much of the t***scontinental railroad, were ghettoized and relegated to menial jobs. Such is the environment of s******c r****m.
Of course, the total non-taught history of what the white settlers did to the Native American population is one of the greater tragedies that we have participated in. In most cases, it was out and out genocide. Included in this s******c r****m is the Spanish treatment of California Indians by the priests of Junipero Serra's Catholic invasion with Cortez and C****ado. The list goes on … and we are not taught the history accurately and without bias. As Joe Friday of D**gnet fame kept saying … "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Unfortunately, history is largely written by the victors of any war or movement, so many of the facts as to what actually happened are lost in the fog of history, but those that remain must not be ignored or altered.
Is it too late to counter this suppression of critical thinking in our society? Critical thinking has always been rejected by religionists and those that would attempt to gain and keep political power. It may be too late to reinstitute this idea of examining everything and being critical of established institutions. Colleges and universities have long been the targets of these political institutions as being radical and opposing established norms. CRT is just the latest evolution of this movement against examining things as they are, and not obscured by rhetoric and dogma.
It is not possible to resurrect this critical thinking in anyone over the age of twenty or so, possibly earlier, but maybe in three or four generations (if we teach critical thinking early enough), we may begin to get a society based on rational thought. I hope that critical thinking can be resurrected and made a part of educational curriculum, but it may be too late … in which case we would have to start over with a society built from the ground up.
I've never understood the whole appeal for authori... (show quote)


Very good post! Well written and interesting.

I can relate to a life without an authority figure, a life dependent upon critical thinking. As a child with Aspergers Syndrome I was happily detached from society but capable of coming to conclusions on my own. Fortunately I had no major disagreements with the status quo. As I matured I became aware of my role as the outsider and learned to become one of the flock when it suited my purpose. I could be all things to all people.

But there comes a time when a person must take a stand. There's an old saying that, "If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything. "

So we must respect the elders of society and not assume that because their politics or religion may be distasteful to us that they are just timid sheep. There are some who have done their due diligence, their critical thinking. ⚖

Reply
Oct 12, 2021 14:58:06   #
RandyBrian Loc: Texas
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I've never understood the whole appeal for authoritarian leaders (read cult leaders.) In the last few days, I've come to a conclusion that is hard to stomach, but which, on thinking about it, is perfectly sound.
The average followers of a dictator are motivated by one basic principle … that they are not responsible for their own lives and/or actions and their leader determines these.
So where does this basic concept come from?
If you take a look at many of the organizations (both political and religious), they are headed by a single figure … pope, pastor, president, cult leader, etc. That figure determines the dogma for the organization and the requirement for membership. That figure can also encompass non-human form, such as God, Mohammed, Rama, Buddha or any other astral deity that you care to name.
Given that we, as children, are many times brought up in one of these authoritarian structures, both religious and social, we've been conditioned to do that kind of thinking. Kids in the Scouting programs look up to and obey the Scoutmasters; in Sunday School, they are taught that the leader/pastor/teacher is the font of knowledge for their sect and that their deity is ultimately the absolute authority for them.
This idea of shifting responsibility for one's own actions and decisions to an authority figure is deeply rooted in our society … indeed, for probably all societies worldwide. This includes ideology inculcated at an early age, which is almost impossible to alter or eradicate.
I once had a conversation with an honest Catholic priest about his religion and parochial schools. His statement has stayed with me for over fifty years … "Give me a child until they are six years old, and I'll give you a Catholic for life." The same procedure will work for any religion or ideology.
People are taught to accept the authority in wh**ever organization, and not question that authority. It's a fact of life for any society and is almost impossible to contain. Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said (paraphrased) … "Tell a lie often enough, and the public will eventually believe it."
Is there a remedy for these adverse ideologies gaining power or controlling a society? Yes there is … but it has been almost eradicated in our educational systems for the last fifty years. It's called "critical thinking."
It has been suppressed for one overriding reason … no authority wants to be questioned in it's dogma. I understand that. But that suppression leads to false narratives that are espoused by proponents of their way of thinking, without regard to t***h or reason. It creates a society of sheep that follows the leader … or the lemmings that go on instinct over the cliff to their deaths.
Critical thinking means at its core that everything is to be questioned as to its veracity until it can be proven with evidence or factual conclusions.
The current flap over CRT (Critical Race Theory) is a classic example of this lack of reasonable investigation. It seeks to paper over the factual history of s***ery in the United States, and its unsettling consequences that exist to the present day. The facts are plain and simple … s***ery existed way before the founding of the nation and was a part of colonial life. It wasn't called s***ery as such most of the time. Such terms as "indentured servant" and others were common in colonial America … and were accepted as part of the social structure. To deny this, and other ways of subjecting people to involuntary servitude have existed throughout American history and cannot be denied.
Those that choose to deny this documented history want to paint a rosy picture for white settlers and citizens to avoid the perceived responsibility for creating the system that promotes white people and attempts to suppress minority citizens … be they black, brown, yellow or anything but white Anglo-Saxon Protestant stock. Note the exclusion of Catholics from the political system until John Kennedy was elected president.
Even some of those same white immigrants suffered the same fate. Cue the Irish that were escaping the Great Potato Famine in the nineteenth century who were sentenced to menial jobs for years before the Polish immigrants arrived to take their place. The Chinese immigrants of the 1850's, once they finished building much of the t***scontinental railroad, were ghettoized and relegated to menial jobs. Such is the environment of s******c r****m.
Of course, the total non-taught history of what the white settlers did to the Native American population is one of the greater tragedies that we have participated in. In most cases, it was out and out genocide. Included in this s******c r****m is the Spanish treatment of California Indians by the priests of Junipero Serra's Catholic invasion with Cortez and C****ado. The list goes on … and we are not taught the history accurately and without bias. As Joe Friday of D**gnet fame kept saying … "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Unfortunately, history is largely written by the victors of any war or movement, so many of the facts as to what actually happened are lost in the fog of history, but those that remain must not be ignored or altered.
Is it too late to counter this suppression of critical thinking in our society? Critical thinking has always been rejected by religionists and those that would attempt to gain and keep political power. It may be too late to reinstitute this idea of examining everything and being critical of established institutions. Colleges and universities have long been the targets of these political institutions as being radical and opposing established norms. CRT is just the latest evolution of this movement against examining things as they are, and not obscured by rhetoric and dogma.
It is not possible to resurrect this critical thinking in anyone over the age of twenty or so, possibly earlier, but maybe in three or four generations (if we teach critical thinking early enough), we may begin to get a society based on rational thought. I hope that critical thinking can be resurrected and made a part of educational curriculum, but it may be too late … in which case we would have to start over with a society built from the ground up.
I've never understood the whole appeal for authori... (show quote)


I see your point about critical thinking, and I think there is some t***h to it. But your logic stream is filled with erroneous assumptions, like the idea that a child raised a certain way will necessarily follow it. Like the assumed jump from respecting authority to accepting that authority without question. And like the assumption that past history has 'hidden' s***ery and indentured servants from being taught. No one is trying to hide the United States past or current problems. But many of us are against the horrible and untrue idea of teaching children of color they are oppressed from birth and have no chance to excel, or telling white children that they are born as oppressors. My brother teaches in a vastly black inner city school district. When teaching about the Civil War, most of these fifth graders get angry at the 'lie' that white people fought to free them, lead by Abraham Lincoln. Most of them have been taught at home that the Civil War was the s***es revolting and freeing themselves by force of arms, and today, 150 years or so later, they are still struggling against the rich w****s who want them returned to s***ery. So how about we teach ALL the kids the FACTUAL t***h. There is room for teachers to express their opinions, but they should be encouraging the kids to do the same. Indoctrination from ANY direction is repulsive.
You may want to apply some of that 'critical thinking' to you own post.

Reply
 
 
Oct 12, 2021 15:47:05   #
Wonttakeitanymore
 
slatten49 wrote:
You prefer OPP being an echo chamber of your thoughts. As a result, you trash others and refuse absolutely to confront issues. Your mind is made up and doesn't like to be confused with facts.

BTW, even after years of posting, you don't recognize that Whitnebrat is a lady and an excellent poster.
img src="https://static.onepoliticalplaza.com/ima... (show quote)


Facts as you view them!! As always

Reply
Oct 12, 2021 16:15:00   #
Bassman65
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I've never understood the whole appeal for authoritarian leaders (read cult leaders.) In the last few days, I've come to a conclusion that is hard to stomach, but which, on thinking about it, is perfectly sound.
The average followers of a dictator are motivated by one basic principle … that they are not responsible for their own lives and/or actions and their leader determines these.
So where does this basic concept come from?
If you take a look at many of the organizations (both political and religious), they are headed by a single figure … pope, pastor, president, cult leader, etc. That figure determines the dogma for the organization and the requirement for membership. That figure can also encompass non-human form, such as God, Mohammed, Rama, Buddha or any other astral deity that you care to name.
Given that we, as children, are many times brought up in one of these authoritarian structures, both religious and social, we've been conditioned to do that kind of thinking. Kids in the Scouting programs look up to and obey the Scoutmasters; in Sunday School, they are taught that the leader/pastor/teacher is the font of knowledge for their sect and that their deity is ultimately the absolute authority for them.
This idea of shifting responsibility for one's own actions and decisions to an authority figure is deeply rooted in our society … indeed, for probably all societies worldwide. This includes ideology inculcated at an early age, which is almost impossible to alter or eradicate.
I once had a conversation with an honest Catholic priest about his religion and parochial schools. His statement has stayed with me for over fifty years … "Give me a child until they are six years old, and I'll give you a Catholic for life." The same procedure will work for any religion or ideology.
People are taught to accept the authority in wh**ever organization, and not question that authority. It's a fact of life for any society and is almost impossible to contain. Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said (paraphrased) … "Tell a lie often enough, and the public will eventually believe it."
Is there a remedy for these adverse ideologies gaining power or controlling a society? Yes there is … but it has been almost eradicated in our educational systems for the last fifty years. It's called "critical thinking."
It has been suppressed for one overriding reason … no authority wants to be questioned in it's dogma. I understand that. But that suppression leads to false narratives that are espoused by proponents of their way of thinking, without regard to t***h or reason. It creates a society of sheep that follows the leader … or the lemmings that go on instinct over the cliff to their deaths.
Critical thinking means at its core that everything is to be questioned as to its veracity until it can be proven with evidence or factual conclusions.
The current flap over CRT (Critical Race Theory) is a classic example of this lack of reasonable investigation. It seeks to paper over the factual history of s***ery in the United States, and its unsettling consequences that exist to the present day. The facts are plain and simple … s***ery existed way before the founding of the nation and was a part of colonial life. It wasn't called s***ery as such most of the time. Such terms as "indentured servant" and others were common in colonial America … and were accepted as part of the social structure. To deny this, and other ways of subjecting people to involuntary servitude have existed throughout American history and cannot be denied.
Those that choose to deny this documented history want to paint a rosy picture for white settlers and citizens to avoid the perceived responsibility for creating the system that promotes white people and attempts to suppress minority citizens … be they black, brown, yellow or anything but white Anglo-Saxon Protestant stock. Note the exclusion of Catholics from the political system until John Kennedy was elected president.
Even some of those same white immigrants suffered the same fate. Cue the Irish that were escaping the Great Potato Famine in the nineteenth century who were sentenced to menial jobs for years before the Polish immigrants arrived to take their place. The Chinese immigrants of the 1850's, once they finished building much of the t***scontinental railroad, were ghettoized and relegated to menial jobs. Such is the environment of s******c r****m.
Of course, the total non-taught history of what the white settlers did to the Native American population is one of the greater tragedies that we have participated in. In most cases, it was out and out genocide. Included in this s******c r****m is the Spanish treatment of California Indians by the priests of Junipero Serra's Catholic invasion with Cortez and C****ado. The list goes on … and we are not taught the history accurately and without bias. As Joe Friday of D**gnet fame kept saying … "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Unfortunately, history is largely written by the victors of any war or movement, so many of the facts as to what actually happened are lost in the fog of history, but those that remain must not be ignored or altered.
Is it too late to counter this suppression of critical thinking in our society? Critical thinking has always been rejected by religionists and those that would attempt to gain and keep political power. It may be too late to reinstitute this idea of examining everything and being critical of established institutions. Colleges and universities have long been the targets of these political institutions as being radical and opposing established norms. CRT is just the latest evolution of this movement against examining things as they are, and not obscured by rhetoric and dogma.
It is not possible to resurrect this critical thinking in anyone over the age of twenty or so, possibly earlier, but maybe in three or four generations (if we teach critical thinking early enough), we may begin to get a society based on rational thought. I hope that critical thinking can be resurrected and made a part of educational curriculum, but it may be too late … in which case we would have to start over with a society built from the ground up.
I've never understood the whole appeal for authori... (show quote)


Good post well said

Reply
Oct 12, 2021 16:31:19   #
slatten49 Loc: Lake Whitney, Texas
 
Wonttakeitanymore wrote:
Facts as you view them!! As always

Just as everyone always views 'em their way.

Reply
Oct 12, 2021 16:33:51   #
The Ms.
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I've never understood the whole appeal for authoritarian leaders (read cult leaders.) In the last few days, I've come to a conclusion that is hard to stomach, but which, on thinking about it, is perfectly sound.
The average followers of a dictator are motivated by one basic principle … that they are not responsible for their own lives and/or actions and their leader determines these.
So where does this basic concept come from?
If you take a look at many of the organizations (both political and religious), they are headed by a single figure … pope, pastor, president, cult leader, etc. That figure determines the dogma for the organization and the requirement for membership. That figure can also encompass non-human form, such as God, Mohammed, Rama, Buddha or any other astral deity that you care to name.
Given that we, as children, are many times brought up in one of these authoritarian structures, both religious and social, we've been conditioned to do that kind of thinking. Kids in the Scouting programs look up to and obey the Scoutmasters; in Sunday School, they are taught that the leader/pastor/teacher is the font of knowledge for their sect and that their deity is ultimately the absolute authority for them.
This idea of shifting responsibility for one's own actions and decisions to an authority figure is deeply rooted in our society … indeed, for probably all societies worldwide. This includes ideology inculcated at an early age, which is almost impossible to alter or eradicate.
I once had a conversation with an honest Catholic priest about his religion and parochial schools. His statement has stayed with me for over fifty years … "Give me a child until they are six years old, and I'll give you a Catholic for life." The same procedure will work for any religion or ideology.
People are taught to accept the authority in wh**ever organization, and not question that authority. It's a fact of life for any society and is almost impossible to contain. Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said (paraphrased) … "Tell a lie often enough, and the public will eventually believe it."
Is there a remedy for these adverse ideologies gaining power or controlling a society? Yes there is … but it has been almost eradicated in our educational systems for the last fifty years. It's called "critical thinking."
It has been suppressed for one overriding reason … no authority wants to be questioned in it's dogma. I understand that. But that suppression leads to false narratives that are espoused by proponents of their way of thinking, without regard to t***h or reason. It creates a society of sheep that follows the leader … or the lemmings that go on instinct over the cliff to their deaths.
Critical thinking means at its core that everything is to be questioned as to its veracity until it can be proven with evidence or factual conclusions.
The current flap over CRT (Critical Race Theory) is a classic example of this lack of reasonable investigation. It seeks to paper over the factual history of s***ery in the United States, and its unsettling consequences that exist to the present day. The facts are plain and simple … s***ery existed way before the founding of the nation and was a part of colonial life. It wasn't called s***ery as such most of the time. Such terms as "indentured servant" and others were common in colonial America … and were accepted as part of the social structure. To deny this, and other ways of subjecting people to involuntary servitude have existed throughout American history and cannot be denied.
Those that choose to deny this documented history want to paint a rosy picture for white settlers and citizens to avoid the perceived responsibility for creating the system that promotes white people and attempts to suppress minority citizens … be they black, brown, yellow or anything but white Anglo-Saxon Protestant stock. Note the exclusion of Catholics from the political system until John Kennedy was elected president.
Even some of those same white immigrants suffered the same fate. Cue the Irish that were escaping the Great Potato Famine in the nineteenth century who were sentenced to menial jobs for years before the Polish immigrants arrived to take their place. The Chinese immigrants of the 1850's, once they finished building much of the t***scontinental railroad, were ghettoized and relegated to menial jobs. Such is the environment of s******c r****m.
Of course, the total non-taught history of what the white settlers did to the Native American population is one of the greater tragedies that we have participated in. In most cases, it was out and out genocide. Included in this s******c r****m is the Spanish treatment of California Indians by the priests of Junipero Serra's Catholic invasion with Cortez and C****ado. The list goes on … and we are not taught the history accurately and without bias. As Joe Friday of D**gnet fame kept saying … "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Unfortunately, history is largely written by the victors of any war or movement, so many of the facts as to what actually happened are lost in the fog of history, but those that remain must not be ignored or altered.
Is it too late to counter this suppression of critical thinking in our society? Critical thinking has always been rejected by religionists and those that would attempt to gain and keep political power. It may be too late to reinstitute this idea of examining everything and being critical of established institutions. Colleges and universities have long been the targets of these political institutions as being radical and opposing established norms. CRT is just the latest evolution of this movement against examining things as they are, and not obscured by rhetoric and dogma.
It is not possible to resurrect this critical thinking in anyone over the age of twenty or so, possibly earlier, but maybe in three or four generations (if we teach critical thinking early enough), we may begin to get a society based on rational thought. I hope that critical thinking can be resurrected and made a part of educational curriculum, but it may be too late … in which case we would have to start over with a society built from the ground up.
I've never understood the whole appeal for authori... (show quote)


Good thoughts! If OPP is any indication…. We’re dead! Most on the left can’t even follow a thought!

Reply
 
 
Oct 12, 2021 18:20:17   #
RandyBrian Loc: Texas
 
Wonttakeitanymore wrote:
Facts as you view them!! As always


I have to disagree. There may be different ways to view a fact, and different views on what it means, but a fact is verifiably the t***h.

A man once wrote, and I tend to agree, that "anything that can not be expressed mathematically is an opinion".
Including this statement.

Reply
Oct 13, 2021 02:29:40   #
whitnebrat Loc: In the wilds of Oregon
 
RandyBrian wrote:
I see your point about critical thinking, and I think there is some t***h to it. But your logic stream is filled with erroneous assumptions, like the idea that a child raised a certain way will necessarily follow it. Like the assumed jump from respecting authority to accepting that authority without question. And like the assumption that past history has 'hidden' s***ery and indentured servants from being taught. No one is trying to hide the United States past or current problems.

I would like to differ here. There are many (if not most) of the schools in the old South that would love to idolize the KKK and promote the Confederacy, even at this later date. I realize that "t***h is in the eye of the beholder", and opinions vary widely. But in my history classes many years ago, many of the oppressions and genocides on our own soil got no traction at all, and I suspect that this is true to this day.

Quote:
But many of us are against the horrible and untrue idea of teaching children of color they are oppressed from birth and have no chance to excel, or telling white children that they are born as oppressors. My brother teaches in a vastly black inner city school district. When teaching about the Civil War, most of these fifth graders get angry at the 'lie' that white people fought to free them, lead by Abraham Lincoln. Most of them have been taught at home that the Civil War was the s***es revolting and freeing themselves by force of arms, and today, 150 years or so later, they are still struggling against the rich w****s who want them returned to s***ery.
So how about we teach ALL the kids the FACTUAL t***h. There is room for teachers to express their opinions, but they should be encouraging the kids to do the same. Indoctrination from ANY direction is repulsive.
You may want to apply some of that 'critical thinking' to you own post.
But many of us are against the horrible and untru... (show quote)


I agree that we should teach kids the FACTUAL t***h, without opinion, and with discussion. Indoctrination is indeed repulsive. The black kids that are taught at home that the Civil War was a s***e revolt need to have critical thinking as well as the white kids to separate the wheat from the chaff. But how do you teach the fact that the genocide against the Native Americans happened? It's not in many of the textbooks that I'm aware of. The 'establishment' just doesn't want to admit that it happened. And how do you teach a w***e s*********t that critical thinking would alter their view of the world?
History is written by the victors, and it's rare that the true facts about anything in the past come to light, although it is easier in this day and age with all the video/cell phones out there. Just my humble opinion.

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Oct 13, 2021 07:00:15   #
older and wiser
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I've never understood the whole appeal for authoritarian leaders (read cult leaders.) In the last few days, I've come to a conclusion that is hard to stomach, but which, on thinking about it, is perfectly sound.
The average followers of a dictator are motivated by one basic principle … that they are not responsible for their own lives and/or actions and their leader determines these.
So where does this basic concept come from?
If you take a look at many of the organizations (both political and religious), they are headed by a single figure … pope, pastor, president, cult leader, etc. That figure determines the dogma for the organization and the requirement for membership. That figure can also encompass non-human form, such as God, Mohammed, Rama, Buddha or any other astral deity that you care to name.
Given that we, as children, are many times brought up in one of these authoritarian structures, both religious and social, we've been conditioned to do that kind of thinking. Kids in the Scouting programs look up to and obey the Scoutmasters; in Sunday School, they are taught that the leader/pastor/teacher is the font of knowledge for their sect and that their deity is ultimately the absolute authority for them.
This idea of shifting responsibility for one's own actions and decisions to an authority figure is deeply rooted in our society … indeed, for probably all societies worldwide. This includes ideology inculcated at an early age, which is almost impossible to alter or eradicate.
I once had a conversation with an honest Catholic priest about his religion and parochial schools. His statement has stayed with me for over fifty years … "Give me a child until they are six years old, and I'll give you a Catholic for life." The same procedure will work for any religion or ideology.
People are taught to accept the authority in wh**ever organization, and not question that authority. It's a fact of life for any society and is almost impossible to contain. Josef Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said (paraphrased) … "Tell a lie often enough, and the public will eventually believe it."
Is there a remedy for these adverse ideologies gaining power or controlling a society? Yes there is … but it has been almost eradicated in our educational systems for the last fifty years. It's called "critical thinking."
It has been suppressed for one overriding reason … no authority wants to be questioned in it's dogma. I understand that. But that suppression leads to false narratives that are espoused by proponents of their way of thinking, without regard to t***h or reason. It creates a society of sheep that follows the leader … or the lemmings that go on instinct over the cliff to their deaths.
Critical thinking means at its core that everything is to be questioned as to its veracity until it can be proven with evidence or factual conclusions.
The current flap over CRT (Critical Race Theory) is a classic example of this lack of reasonable investigation. It seeks to paper over the factual history of s***ery in the United States, and its unsettling consequences that exist to the present day. The facts are plain and simple … s***ery existed way before the founding of the nation and was a part of colonial life. It wasn't called s***ery as such most of the time. Such terms as "indentured servant" and others were common in colonial America … and were accepted as part of the social structure. To deny this, and other ways of subjecting people to involuntary servitude have existed throughout American history and cannot be denied.
Those that choose to deny this documented history want to paint a rosy picture for white settlers and citizens to avoid the perceived responsibility for creating the system that promotes white people and attempts to suppress minority citizens … be they black, brown, yellow or anything but white Anglo-Saxon Protestant stock. Note the exclusion of Catholics from the political system until John Kennedy was elected president.
Even some of those same white immigrants suffered the same fate. Cue the Irish that were escaping the Great Potato Famine in the nineteenth century who were sentenced to menial jobs for years before the Polish immigrants arrived to take their place. The Chinese immigrants of the 1850's, once they finished building much of the t***scontinental railroad, were ghettoized and relegated to menial jobs. Such is the environment of s******c r****m.
Of course, the total non-taught history of what the white settlers did to the Native American population is one of the greater tragedies that we have participated in. In most cases, it was out and out genocide. Included in this s******c r****m is the Spanish treatment of California Indians by the priests of Junipero Serra's Catholic invasion with Cortez and C****ado. The list goes on … and we are not taught the history accurately and without bias. As Joe Friday of D**gnet fame kept saying … "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Unfortunately, history is largely written by the victors of any war or movement, so many of the facts as to what actually happened are lost in the fog of history, but those that remain must not be ignored or altered.
Is it too late to counter this suppression of critical thinking in our society? Critical thinking has always been rejected by religionists and those that would attempt to gain and keep political power. It may be too late to reinstitute this idea of examining everything and being critical of established institutions. Colleges and universities have long been the targets of these political institutions as being radical and opposing established norms. CRT is just the latest evolution of this movement against examining things as they are, and not obscured by rhetoric and dogma.
It is not possible to resurrect this critical thinking in anyone over the age of twenty or so, possibly earlier, but maybe in three or four generations (if we teach critical thinking early enough), we may begin to get a society based on rational thought. I hope that critical thinking can be resurrected and made a part of educational curriculum, but it may be too late … in which case we would have to start over with a society built from the ground up.
I've never understood the whole appeal for authori... (show quote)


Communests supporting morons can't be taught to do anything right, only thing they understand is how to destroy things and people that actually work!

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Oct 13, 2021 09:04:22   #
RandyBrian Loc: Texas
 
whitnebrat wrote:
I agree that we should teach kids the FACTUAL t***h, without opinion, and with discussion. Indoctrination is indeed repulsive. The black kids that are taught at home that the Civil War was a s***e revolt need to have critical thinking as well as the white kids to separate the wheat from the chaff. But how do you teach the fact that the genocide against the Native Americans happened? It's not in many of the textbooks that I'm aware of. The 'establishment' just doesn't want to admit that it happened. And how do you teach a w***e s*********t that critical thinking would alter their view of the world?
History is written by the victors, and it's rare that the true facts about anything in the past come to light, although it is easier in this day and age with all the video/cell phones out there. Just my humble opinion.
I agree that we should teach kids the FACTUAL t***... (show quote)


Whitenebrat, WHEERE do you get this idea??
"There are many (if not most) of the schools in the old South that would love to idolize the KKK and promote the Confederacy, even at this later date." ???????
I was raised in South Texas in the 60s and 70s. We were taught the facts in public school. No 'white'washing whatsoever. We were taught it in college in South Texas. What I was taught has been verified multiple times through my own compulsive reading habits. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I saw it taught to in a different school district when I tutored MY children through school. I saw it taught when I spent a number of years substitute teaching. And I am seeing in NOW, as I tutor my grandchildren.
Where in Heaven's name do you get this weird idea that ANY where, including in the old South, that the KKK and Confederacy is idolized? From democrat talking points??? From CNN or MSNBC ???

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