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The thread I am preseting is not my opinion but an article meant to be debated shraing your beliefs on this topic: "What is heaven"?
Apr 25, 2021 21:49:10   #
rumitoid
 
Joanne M. Pierce, Professor of Religious Studies, College of the Holy Cross
Sun, April 25, 2021, 2:44 PM

When a family member or a friend passes away, we often find ourselves reflecting on the question “where are they now?” As mortal beings, it is a question of ultimate significance to each of us.

Different cultural groups, and different individuals within them, respond with numerous, often conflicting, answers to questions about life after death. For many, these questions are rooted in the idea of reward for the good (a heaven) and punishment for the wicked (a hell), where earthly injustices are finally righted.

However, these common roots do not guarantee contemporary agreement on the nature, or even the existence, of hell and heaven. Pope Francis himself has raised Catholic eyebrows over some of his comments on heaven, recently telling a young boy that his deceased father, an atheist, was with God in heaven because, by his careful parenting, “he had a good heart.”

So, what is the Christian idea of “heaven”?
Beliefs about what happens at death

The earliest Christians believed that Jesus Christ, risen from the dead after his crucifixion, would soon return, to complete what he had begun by his preaching: the establishment of the Kingdom of God. This Second Coming of Christ would bring an end to the effort of unification of all humanity in Christ and result in a final resurrection of the dead and moral judgment of all human beings.

By the middle of the first century A.D., Christians became concerned about the fate of members of their churches who had already died before this Second Coming.

Some of the earliest documents in the Christian New Testament, epistles or letters written by the apostle Paul, offered an answer. The dead have simply fallen asleep, they explained. When Christ returns, the dead, too, would rise in renewed bodies, and be judged by Christ himself. Afterwards, they would be united with him forever.

A few theologians in the early centuries of Christianity agreed. But a growing consensus developed that the souls of the dead were held in a kind of waiting state until the end of the world, when they would be once again reunited with their bodies, resurrected in a more perfected form.
Promise of eternal life

After Roman Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity in the early fourth century, the number of Christians grew enormously. Millions converted across the Empire, and by the century’s end, the old Roman state religion was prohibited.

Based on the Gospels, bishops and theologians emphasized that the promise of eternal life in heaven was open only to the baptized – that is, those who had undergone the ritual immersion in water which cleansed the soul from sin and marked one’s entrance into the church. All others were damned to eternal separation from God and punishment for sin.

In this new Christian empire, baptism was increasingly administered to infants. Some theologians challenged this practice, since infants could not yet commit sins. But in the Christian west, the belief in “original sin” – the sin of Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God’s command in the Garden of Eden (the “Fall”) – predominated.

Following the teachings of the fourth century saint Augustine, Western theologians in the fifth century A.D. believed that even infants were born with the sin of Adam and Eve marring their spirit and will.

But this doctrine raised a troubling question: What of those infants who died before baptism could be administered?

At first, theologians taught that their souls went to Hell, but suffered very little if at all.

The concept of Limbo developed from this idea. Popes and theologians in the 13th century taught that the souls of unbaptized babies or young children enjoyed a state of natural happiness on the “edge” of Hell, but, like those punished more severely in Hell itself, were denied the bliss of the presence of God.
Time of judgment

During times of war or plague in antiquity and the Middle Ages, Western Christians often interpreted the social chaos as a sign of the end of the world. However, as the centuries passed, the Second Coming of Christ generally became a more remote event for most Christians, still awaited but relegated to an indeterminate future. Instead, Christian theology focused more on the moment of individual death.

Judgment, the evaluation of the moral state of each human being, was no longer postponed until the end of the world. Each soul was first judged individually by Christ immediately after death (the “Particular” Judgment), as well as at the Second Coming (the Final or General Judgment).

Deathbed rituals or “Last Rites” developed from earlier rites for the sick and penitent, and most had the opportunity to confess their sins to a priest, be anointed, and receive a “final” communion before breathing their last.

Medieval Christians prayed to be protected from a sudden or unexpected death, because they feared baptism alone was not enough to enter heaven directly without these Last Rites.

Another doctrine had developed. Some died still guilty of lesser or venial sins, like common gossip, petty theft, or minor lies that did not completely deplete one’s soul of God’s grace. After death, these souls would first be “purged” of any remaining sin or guilt in a spiritual state called Purgatory. After this spiritual cleansing, usually visualized as fire, they would be pure enough to enter heaven.

Only those who were extraordinarily virtuous, such as the saints, or those who had received the Last Rites, could enter directly into heaven and the presence of God.
Images of heaven

In antiquity, the first centuries of the Common Era, Christian heaven shared certain characteristics with both Judaism and Hellenistic religious thought on the afterlife of the virtuous. One was that of an almost physical rest and refreshment as after a desert journey, often accompanied by descriptions of banquets, fountains or rivers. In the Bible’s Book of Revelation, a symbolic description of the end of the world, the river running through God’s New Jerusalem was called the river “of the water of life.” However, in the Gospel of Luke, the damned were tormented by thirst.

Another was the image of light. Romans and Jews thought of the abode of the wicked as a place of darkness and shadows, but the divine dwelling place was filled with bright light. Heaven was also charged with positive emotions: peace, joy, love, and the bliss of spiritual fulfillment that Christians came to refer to as the Beatific Vision, the presence of God.

Visionaries and poets used a variety of additional images: flowering meadows, colors beyond description, trees filled with fruit, company and conversation with family or white-robed others among the blessed. Bright angels stood behind the dazzling throne of God and sang praise in exquisite melodies.

The Protestant Reformation, begun in 1517, would break sharply with the Roman Catholic Church in Western Europe in the 16th century. While both sides would argue about the existence of Purgatory, or whether only some were predestined by God to enter heaven, the existence and general nature of heaven itself was not an issue.
Heaven as the place of God

Today, theologians offer a variety of opinions about the nature of heaven. The Anglican C. S. Lewis wrote that even one’s pets might be admitted, united in love with their owners as the owners are united in Christ through baptism.

Following the nineteenth-century Pope Pius IX, Jesuit Karl Rahner taught that even non-Christians and non-believers could still be saved through Christ if they lived according to similar values, an idea now found in the Catholic Catechism.

The Catholic Church itself has dropped the idea of Limbo, leaving the fate of unbaptized infants to “the mercy of God.” One theme remains constant, however: Heaven is the presence of God, in the company of others who have responded to God’s call in their own lives.

This article is republished from The Conversation, a nonprofit news site dedicated to sharing ideas from academic experts.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/heaven-154934145.html

Reply
Apr 26, 2021 22:33:04   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: the Frozen Tundra
 
Great topic Rumi!

Jesus said, " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me."

Christians have received this Gospel teaching but what about the very young, the people of other faiths, or those who lived in ages before Christ's Incarnation?

For the good, non- Christians, He gave us the parable of the sheep and goats. When the good people who honestly don't know Jesus ask, "Lord, when did we find you hungry, thirsty, etc" and He answers them, "what you do for even the least among you, you do for Me" it's easy to see that He is addressing those good people.

On this basis of hope there are Holy Orders of religious brothers and sisters, myself included, that pray for all the non-baptized people who have died in all places and times, especially for the victims of abortion.

It helps to remember that Heaven is eternal, which means there is no time as we experience it in our fallen, temporal world. So your loved ones who have gone before you, though they may truly be in Heaven, are not waiting for you or looking down upon you. How sad or embarrassing this could be! And what about the babies and children!

In Heaven there are no such negative feelings! They are not waiting for you because you are already there with them, God willing! No time = no waiting.

Now when we sinners die, there is usually still some attachment to sin or false teaching. There is no sin in Heaven so by the Grace of God we are washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb, purged of our concupicent attraction to sin. This purging is Purgatory, not so much a place but a process. Some need very little, some need a lot!

As Jesus died on the cross He commended His Soul to God and descended to the dead. What do you suppose He did while in that place? Why he taught, consoled, healed, loved!

And on the third day He rose again! And some Gospel accounts tell of others rising with Him!

All in the fullness of time, our time will come, and we will Live with God as He intended from the beginning. God wills not the death of any sinner, so if for no other reason than for His sake I pray that all are saved! 🙏

Reply
Apr 27, 2021 14:00:48   #
Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
rumitoid wrote:
Joanne M. Pierce, Professor of Religious Studies, College of the Holy Cross
Sun, April 25, 2021, 2:44 PM

When a family member or a friend passes away, we often find ourselves reflecting on the question “where are they now?” As mortal beings, it is a question of ultimate significance to each of us.

Different cultural groups, and different individuals within them, respond with numerous, often conflicting, answers to questions about life after death. For many, these questions are rooted in the idea of reward for the good (a heaven) and punishment for the wicked (a hell), where earthly injustices are finally righted.

However, these common roots do not guarantee contemporary agreement on the nature, or even the existence, of hell and heaven. Pope Francis himself has raised Catholic eyebrows over some of his comments on heaven, recently telling a young boy that his deceased father, an atheist, was with God in heaven because, by his careful parenting, “he had a good heart.”

So, what is the Christian idea of “heaven”?
Beliefs about what happens at death

The earliest Christians believed that Jesus Christ, risen from the dead after his crucifixion, would soon return, to complete what he had begun by his preaching: the establishment of the Kingdom of God. This Second Coming of Christ would bring an end to the effort of unification of all humanity in Christ and result in a final resurrection of the dead and moral judgment of all human beings.

By the middle of the first century A.D., Christians became concerned about the fate of members of their churches who had already died before this Second Coming.

Some of the earliest documents in the Christian New Testament, epistles or letters written by the apostle Paul, offered an answer. The dead have simply fallen asleep, they explained. When Christ returns, the dead, too, would rise in renewed bodies, and be judged by Christ himself. Afterwards, they would be united with him forever.

A few theologians in the early centuries of Christianity agreed. But a growing consensus developed that the souls of the dead were held in a kind of waiting state until the end of the world, when they would be once again reunited with their bodies, resurrected in a more perfected form.
Promise of eternal life

After Roman Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity in the early fourth century, the number of Christians grew enormously. Millions converted across the Empire, and by the century’s end, the old Roman state religion was prohibited.

Based on the Gospels, bishops and theologians emphasized that the promise of eternal life in heaven was open only to the baptized – that is, those who had undergone the ritual immersion in water which cleansed the soul from sin and marked one’s entrance into the church. All others were damned to eternal separation from God and punishment for sin.

In this new Christian empire, baptism was increasingly administered to infants. Some theologians challenged this practice, since infants could not yet commit sins. But in the Christian west, the belief in “original sin” – the sin of Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God’s command in the Garden of Eden (the “Fall”) – predominated.

Following the teachings of the fourth century saint Augustine, Western theologians in the fifth century A.D. believed that even infants were born with the sin of Adam and Eve marring their spirit and will.

But this doctrine raised a troubling question: What of those infants who died before baptism could be administered?

At first, theologians taught that their souls went to Hell, but suffered very little if at all.

The concept of Limbo developed from this idea. Popes and theologians in the 13th century taught that the souls of unbaptized babies or young children enjoyed a state of natural happiness on the “edge” of Hell, but, like those punished more severely in Hell itself, were denied the bliss of the presence of God.
Time of judgment

During times of war or plague in antiquity and the Middle Ages, Western Christians often interpreted the social chaos as a sign of the end of the world. However, as the centuries passed, the Second Coming of Christ generally became a more remote event for most Christians, still awaited but relegated to an indeterminate future. Instead, Christian theology focused more on the moment of individual death.

Judgment, the evaluation of the moral state of each human being, was no longer postponed until the end of the world. Each soul was first judged individually by Christ immediately after death (the “Particular” Judgment), as well as at the Second Coming (the Final or General Judgment).

Deathbed rituals or “Last Rites” developed from earlier rites for the sick and penitent, and most had the opportunity to confess their sins to a priest, be anointed, and receive a “final” communion before breathing their last.

Medieval Christians prayed to be protected from a sudden or unexpected death, because they feared baptism alone was not enough to enter heaven directly without these Last Rites.

Another doctrine had developed. Some died still guilty of lesser or venial sins, like common gossip, petty theft, or minor lies that did not completely deplete one’s soul of God’s grace. After death, these souls would first be “purged” of any remaining sin or guilt in a spiritual state called Purgatory. After this spiritual cleansing, usually visualized as fire, they would be pure enough to enter heaven.

Only those who were extraordinarily virtuous, such as the saints, or those who had received the Last Rites, could enter directly into heaven and the presence of God.
Images of heaven

In antiquity, the first centuries of the Common Era, Christian heaven shared certain characteristics with both Judaism and Hellenistic religious thought on the afterlife of the virtuous. One was that of an almost physical rest and refreshment as after a desert journey, often accompanied by descriptions of banquets, fountains or rivers. In the Bible’s Book of Revelation, a symbolic description of the end of the world, the river running through God’s New Jerusalem was called the river “of the water of life.” However, in the Gospel of Luke, the damned were tormented by thirst.

Another was the image of light. Romans and Jews thought of the abode of the wicked as a place of darkness and shadows, but the divine dwelling place was filled with bright light. Heaven was also charged with positive emotions: peace, joy, love, and the bliss of spiritual fulfillment that Christians came to refer to as the Beatific Vision, the presence of God.

Visionaries and poets used a variety of additional images: flowering meadows, colors beyond description, trees filled with fruit, company and conversation with family or white-robed others among the blessed. Bright angels stood behind the dazzling throne of God and sang praise in exquisite melodies.

The Protestant Reformation, begun in 1517, would break sharply with the Roman Catholic Church in Western Europe in the 16th century. While both sides would argue about the existence of Purgatory, or whether only some were predestined by God to enter heaven, the existence and general nature of heaven itself was not an issue.
Heaven as the place of God

Today, theologians offer a variety of opinions about the nature of heaven. The Anglican C. S. Lewis wrote that even one’s pets might be admitted, united in love with their owners as the owners are united in Christ through baptism.

Following the nineteenth-century Pope Pius IX, Jesuit Karl Rahner taught that even non-Christians and non-believers could still be saved through Christ if they lived according to similar values, an idea now found in the Catholic Catechism.

The Catholic Church itself has dropped the idea of Limbo, leaving the fate of unbaptized infants to “the mercy of God.” One theme remains constant, however: Heaven is the presence of God, in the company of others who have responded to God’s call in their own lives.

This article is republished from The Conversation, a nonprofit news site dedicated to sharing ideas from academic experts.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/heaven-154934145.html
Joanne M. Pierce, Professor of Religious Studies, ... (show quote)



Allow me to share an idea in the form of a question.

If everybody is already in heaven...hell...or purgatory...

Why is there a need for the resurrection?

Reply
 
 
Apr 27, 2021 15:11:07   #
Rose42
 
Absent from the body, present with the Lord. In the Lord’s presence is heaven. I need no more explanation than that.

Reply
Apr 27, 2021 15:30:12   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: the Frozen Tundra
 
Rose42 wrote:
Absent from the body, present with the Lord. In the Lord’s presence is heaven. I need no more explanation than that.


Beautiful Rose!🌹

Reply
Apr 27, 2021 15:47:32   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: the Frozen Tundra
 
Michael Rich wrote:
Allow me to share an idea in the form of a question.

If everybody is already in heaven...hell...or purgatory...

Why is there a need for the resurrection?


God intends for us to have perfect, immortal bodies like unto the way that He created Adam and Eve.

On the last day, Jesus, who is The Resurrection, will raise everyone up, because behold! He makes all things new!

If there are souls in hell, and I pray there are not, for the sake of God's Love for them, they would probably remain there because that is their choice.

And Purgatory is but a prelude to Heaven. So is the Divine Sequence Creation > life> death > Purgatory > Heaven > Resurrection> Eternal Life? It would seem to be!

It seems rather Rube Goldberg but remember, it is we who made it so complicated by our disobedience!

And there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, and we will finally be the people we are meant to be. 😇

Reply
Apr 27, 2021 22:18:05   #
TexaCan Loc: Heart in W Texas - feet on the beach in Al.
 
The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.

Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).

On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9). There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.

A resurrection awaits everyone—either a resurrection to eternal life or a resurrection to “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). The Bible clearly states that New Testament saints who have died will be resurrected at the event we call the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). The Bible is less clear about when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom (Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:14).

The above comments were taken from the site, Got Questions. It is a site that I often use on threads to express my beliefs.

To add a few more thoughts....I don’t believe in soul sleep, I believe that the moment we die that we go to the appropriate place either saved or unsaved. We will await our judgment of rewards in heaven or the payment for our sins in Hell. The choice of Heaven or Hell ends when we take that last breath. No amount of praying for the dead can change effect that person’s choice in life.

I believe that all children under the age of accountability will go to heaven and that age may possibly be different for each person. I also don’t believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. We chose to do this as a result of being saved. The thief on the cross was saved.....he was not Baptized!

We are born a sinner, only one was sinless and that is Jesus Christ! His death on the cross was payment for our sins just for the asking and faith in Him!

MARANATHA

Reply
 
 
Apr 29, 2021 12:02:24   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
Absent from the body, present with the Lord. In the Lord’s presence is heaven. I need no more explanation than that.


Well put!

Reply
Apr 29, 2021 12:05:24   #
rumitoid
 
TexaCan wrote:
The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.

Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).

On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9). There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.

A resurrection awaits everyone—either a resurrection to eternal life or a resurrection to “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). The Bible clearly states that New Testament saints who have died will be resurrected at the event we call the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). The Bible is less clear about when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. It is our view that Old Testament believers will be joined to their resurrected bodies at the end of the tribulation period when Jesus returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom (Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:14).

The above comments were taken from the site, Got Questions. It is a site that I often use on threads to express my beliefs.

To add a few more thoughts....I don’t believe in soul sleep, I believe that the moment we die that we go to the appropriate place either saved or unsaved. We will await our judgment of rewards in heaven or the payment for our sins in Hell. The choice of Heaven or Hell ends when we take that last breath. No amount of praying for the dead can change effect that person’s choice in life.

I believe that all children under the age of accountability will go to heaven and that age may possibly be different for each person. I also don’t believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. We chose to do this as a result of being saved. The thief on the cross was saved.....he was not Baptized!

We are born a sinner, only one was sinless and that is Jesus Christ! His death on the cross was payment for our sins just for the asking and faith in Him!

MARANATHA
The Old Testament believers went to a place of com... (show quote)


So proud of you. Extremely good response to the thread. I knew you could do it. Thank you.

Reply
Apr 29, 2021 12:09:11   #
rumitoid
 
Roamin' Catholic wrote:
God intends for us to have perfect, immortal bodies like unto the way that He created Adam and Eve.

On the last day, Jesus, who is The Resurrection, will raise everyone up, because behold! He makes all things new!

If there are souls in hell, and I pray there are not, for the sake of God's Love for them, they would probably remain there because that is their choice.

And Purgatory is but a prelude to Heaven. So is the Divine Sequence Creation > life> death > Purgatory > Heaven > Resurrection> Eternal Life? It would seem to be!

It seems rather Rube Goldberg but remember, it is we who made it so complicated by our disobedience!

And there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, and we will finally be the people we are meant to be. 😇
God intends for us to have perfect, immortal bodie... (show quote)


Amen! Great response. As a born and raised Catholic thru Grammar School, HS, and college, it was perfect.

Reply
Apr 29, 2021 13:05:33   #
Roamin' Catholic Loc: the Frozen Tundra
 
rumitoid wrote:
Amen! Great response. As a born and raised Catholic thru Grammar School, HS, and college, it was perfect.


Thank you Rumi!

Hey I like your signature line, the quote by C.S.Lewis. "The more God takes us over, the more our true selves we become."

As we grow in faith, it seems that God becomes bolder in His communications with us, because a strong faith is not so overwhelmed by His Majesty. We are not in danger of becoming blind automatons as someone of little or no faith would be when confronted with His Glory, feeling forced to obey. It is infinitely better to come to love Him of our own free will and live in obedience born of love. 💕

Reply
 
 
Apr 29, 2021 14:40:18   #
TexaCan Loc: Heart in W Texas - feet on the beach in Al.
 
rumitoid wrote:
So proud of you. Extremely good response to the thread. I knew you could do it. Thank you.


You would get many more of this type of responses if you would not start with an insult in the thread Title! 👍

Reply
Apr 29, 2021 19:30:42   #
Michael Rich Loc: Lapine Oregon
 
Roamin' Catholic wrote:
God intends for us to have perfect, immortal bodies like unto the way that He created Adam and Eve.

On the last day, Jesus, who is The Resurrection, will raise everyone up, because behold! He makes all things new!

If there are souls in hell, and I pray there are not, for the sake of God's Love for them, they would probably remain there because that is their choice.

And Purgatory is but a prelude to Heaven. So is the Divine Sequence Creation > life> death > Purgatory > Heaven > Resurrection> Eternal Life? It would seem to be!

It seems rather Rube Goldberg but remember, it is we who made it so complicated by our disobedience!

And there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, and we will finally be the people we are meant to be. 😇
God intends for us to have perfect, immortal bodie... (show quote)



There are many theoretical explanations pertaining to heaven and hell.

Some people believe that in heaven they'll be floating on the figurative cloud....and then the people who believe that in God's kingdom there is perfect structure and order in government.

Some people believe they'll be mobile in hell, just a bit warm.

And then there are the people who believe the fire is hot enough to destroy even the memory of the condemned.

And there is a plethora of stories in between the extremes.

Reply
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