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Jesus - Fully God and fully man?
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Apr 5, 2021 16:26:34   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
It is asserted in 'orthodox' Christianity that Jesus is fully God and fully man, but is this even possible?

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2021/03/13/why-i-believe-jesus-of-nazareth-is-a-simple-human-person/

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Apr 5, 2021 19:02:13   #
Rose42
 
troysal wrote:
It is asserted in 'orthodox' Christianity that Jesus is fully God and fully man, but is this even possible?

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2021/03/13/why-i-believe-jesus-of-nazareth-is-a-simple-human-person/


Read your bible and see how it is possible. Your source should too

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Apr 5, 2021 19:16:05   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Rose42 wrote:
Read your bible and see how it is possible. Your source should too


Wow, that's profound.

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Apr 5, 2021 19:22:48   #
TexaCan Loc: Heart in W Texas - feet on the beach in Al.
 
troysal wrote:
It is asserted in 'orthodox' Christianity that Jesus is fully God and fully man, but is this even possible?

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2021/03/13/why-i-believe-jesus-of-nazareth-is-a-simple-human-person/


Drumming up a little business? 😉

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Apr 5, 2021 22:17:39   #
Rose42
 
TexaCan wrote:
Drumming up a little business? 😉


Looks like he's trying to. Lol

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Apr 6, 2021 02:58:28   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Mark 10:27 "Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.'"

Luke 1:37 "For nothing will be impossible with God."


troysal wrote:
It is asserted in 'orthodox' Christianity that Jesus is fully God and fully man, but is this even possible?

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2021/03/13/why-i-believe-jesus-of-nazareth-is-a-simple-human-person/

Reply
Apr 6, 2021 07:36:39   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Zemirah wrote:
Mark 10:27 "Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.'"

Luke 1:37 "For nothing will be impossible with God."


Can God do logically impossible things? You can't be a God person and be a fully human person - that is nonsense and scripture nowhere teaches it.

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Apr 6, 2021 08:56:12   #
Rose42
 
troysal wrote:
Can God do logically impossible things? You can't be a God person and be a fully human person - that is nonsense and scripture nowhere teaches it.


Do you think you fully understand God? If His word says nothing is impossible then why do you doubt? Why do you lean on the secular for your belief?

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Apr 6, 2021 09:04:22   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Rose42 wrote:
Do you think you fully understand God? If His word says nothing is impossible then why do you doubt? Why do you lean on the secular for your belief?


JUst like it is impossible for God to lie it is impossible for God to become 'fully human'. If you can prove it from scripture then please do so. Otherwise you are making empty assertions.

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Apr 6, 2021 09:25:51   #
Rose42
 
troysal wrote:
JUst like it is impossible for God to lie it is impossible for God to become 'fully human'. If you can prove it from scripture then please do so. Otherwise you are making empty assertions.


That's a straw man. If you don't understand the scriptures then it would be beneficial to seek a good teacher rather than relying on yourself and looking for those who support your belief (confirmation bias). There's a lot of material out there and someone has already tried your argument to no avail.

The unitarian sect wasn't established until after the 15th century - I don't remember the exact dates and honestly it doesn't matter to me. I looked into it years ago and found it to be a false belief. I'm not going to rehash it. Maybe someone else will.

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Apr 6, 2021 18:01:03   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Rose42,

Once again you have failed to offer any scriptural evidence.

You are also ignorant of the facts of history. Unitarian belief, i.e. the belief that the Father alone is the one true God is more ancient than the trinity doctrine. All scholars of early church history know this. The apostles of our Lord Jesus were unitarians, as was our Lord himself. Jesus' God was the Father and the God of the first Christians was the Father, not the 'triune God', a concept which didn't exist in the first century. When you looked into it you didn't go back far enough, you only went back to the reformation period, when the ancient belief was rediscovered through the ability of men being able to read the scriptures for themselves after centuries of being told what to believe by the 'church'.

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Apr 6, 2021 18:12:45   #
Rose42
 
troysal wrote:
Rose42,

Once again you have failed to offer any scriptural evidence.


Shall I say it one more time? This has already been argued here - and unitarianism refuted - and I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. I can't say it more plainly that that.

Quote:
You are also ignorant of the facts of history. Unitarian belief, i.e. the belief that the Father alone is the one true God is more ancient than the trinity doctrine. All scholars of early church history know this. The apostles of our Lord Jesus were unitarians, as was our Lord himself. Jesus' God was the Father and the God of the first Christians was the Father, not the 'triune God', a concept which didn't exist in the first century. When you looked into it you didn't go back far enough, you only went back to the reformation period, when the ancient belief was rediscovered through the ability of men being able to read the scriptures for themselves after centuries of being told what to believe by the 'church'.
You are also ignorant of the facts of history. Uni... (show quote)


Of course everyone who isn't a unitarian is ignorant and really hasn't looked into it enough. Heard that all before too. Many times.

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Apr 7, 2021 05:47:52   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Scripture does teach it, but begin with the human approach to the perfect sense of it.

Begin by defining a contradiction. The formula states: “a” = non “a” in the same way and at the same time. For example: Fox = not a fox in the same way and at the same time. Break this down a little further. What if the first fox was a pet and the second fox was the slang word for an attractive lady? Obviously, there is no contradiction. This is why the formula has the words “in the same way.” Both sides of the equation have to be the same. If talking about a pet fox in the first instance it has to be the same in the second.

What about the words “at the same time?” - and why that has to be in the formula. Steve taught at church and Steve didn’t teach at church. It is only a contradiction if speaking about the same time and day. At 10 am Steve spoke at church and at 2 pm Steve didn’t teach at church. That is true and not a contradiction. But if you specify the same time and day then there is a contradiction. Steve spoke at church at 10 am today and Steve didn’t speak at church at 10 am today. One or the other is true.

Sometimes stating the formula for contradictions actually confuses people more than it helps.

Is stating Jesus is fully God and fully man contradictory? The obvious answer is no. To make a contradiction you’d have to say Jesus was fully God and he was not fully God at the same time and in the same way or Jesus was fully man and was not fully man at the same time and in the same way. The statement Jesus is fully God and fully man is not contradictory.

At Christmas we celebrate the eternal Son, Jesus Christ, taking on human flesh. We call that event the incarnation. Jesus comes to earth truly God and truly man. The eternal Son can be called Jesus in His humanity and the second person of the Trinity in His divinity.

The Bible teaches God is a Triune God. The Trinity definition: One God who subsists (continues to exist) in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; co-equal and co-eternal. The key to understanding the Trinity is there is only one God. The Trinity is not contradictory. One God is not three Gods. One God subsists in three persons.

Jesus doesn’t displace the Father or the Holy Spirit. All three eternally exist as the Triune God. Another way to define the Trinity is to say in the one God there are three centers of consciousness.

Jesus as God can do miracles and have all knowledge (Omniscience). Jesus in his humanity got tired, hungry, and was tempted just like anyone of us. God does not get tired, hungry, nor can He be tempted. On the cross the human Jesus could feel tremendous pain and die. As God the second person of the Trinity could not die, for God is spirit, not physicality.

John 3:16-17: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.” These are great verses from John. All you can show here is the Father and Son are distinct persons. This fits well with the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Bible teaches 3 premises that support the doctrine of the Trinity. 1) There are 3 distinct persons, 2) Each person is God, 3) There is only one God. If needed, 28 verses can be provided that clearly teach there is only one God. All other gods are false gods (Satan, idols, humans). None of the false gods are the one true God by nature. Paul writes about false gods in Galatians 4:8 “However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.” Paul implies that there is only one God by nature and all others are false by nature.

The issue of one God was important at the council of Nicea in A.D. 325. It was there Arius brought forth his teaching that Jesus was “a god” a created being. Arianism, a forerunner to Jehovah’s Witnesses, was soundly rejected by the Bishops (300+ to 2). The main issue was there is only one God. Arianism was labeled a heresy by this early church council. Today this false teaching has been restored by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. To claim Jesus is a lesser god, a mighty god is polytheism. The early church rejected this belief and classical Christianity supports that rejection.

Because Almighty God does not choose the exact words you would choose is not a cause to reject His words as nonsensical. He is God, and it is His choice.

There is a reason for the continual Biblical phrase, "To he who has eyes to see, let him see."


troysal wrote:
Can God do logically impossible things? You can't be a God person and be a fully human person - that is nonsense and scripture nowhere teaches it.

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Apr 7, 2021 08:18:29   #
troysal Loc: Picayune MS
 
Zemirah,

I don't know if you actually read the article but what I was pointing out in it is that the contradiction consists in calling Jesus 'fully human' while denying he is a human person, which orthodoxy does. You said that "as God the second person of the Trinity could not die." This means that when Jesus 'died' no person died, for the only person in Jesus is a divine person. So you have a death without a person dying. How is this even reasonable? This is one of the unintended results of the Trinity doctrine.

You said, "Jesus as God can do miracles and have all knowledge (Omniscience)." Peter did not think Jesus performed his miracles because he was God - see Acts 2:22. Also there is ample evidence from the gospels that Jesus was not omniscient.

You need to study the history of what led up to Nicea, but do so from an unbiased source; most "Christian' accounts of Nicea are terribly skewed. The true facts of the matter should shock you.

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Apr 7, 2021 10:22:11   #
Rose42
 
troysal wrote:
Zemirah,

I don't know if you actually read the article but what I was pointing out in it is that the contradiction consists in calling Jesus 'fully human' while denying he is a human person, which orthodoxy does. You said that "as God the second person of the Trinity could not die." This means that when Jesus 'died' no person died, for the only person in Jesus is a divine person. So you have a death without a person dying. How is this even reasonable? This is one of the unintended results of the Trinity doctrine.

You said, "Jesus as God can do miracles and have all knowledge (Omniscience)." Peter did not think Jesus performed his miracles because he was God - see Acts 2:22. Also there is ample evidence from the gospels that Jesus was not omniscient.

You need to study the history of what led up to Nicea, but do so from an unbiased source; most "Christian' accounts of Nicea are terribly skewed. The true facts of the matter should shock you.
Zemirah, br br I don't know if you actually read ... (show quote)


Thats not what Acts 2:22 ‘proves’. You are misusing scripture - as many do - to try and validate your opinion.

You also want people to go to secular sources which are not unbiased.

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