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Nov 20, 2020 13:43:13   #
Seth
 
DASHY wrote:
Or a good union representative.


Never been in a union.

I will be the first to say that when they began unionizing in America, it was a good thing as the unions actually represented the employees. Today unions are all about squeezing companies like sponges, not for the members but to be able to increase dues and make more money for themselves. They threaten strikes if an employer doesn't want to pay more than what the marketplace values a job at or more than the employer can afford, and we see downsizing or companies simply closing altogether -- now nobody there has a job -- and fleeing offshore.

Public sector unions know they can get away with more because those they negotiate with have no bottom line to consider, because "it's only the taxpayer's money."

One reason I have no use for unions is an experience my best friend had.

He was a member of a carpenters' union for decades, working for NYC, and while in his 50s blew his knees out on the job and required mechanical implants in order to be able to walk again, but basically his entire working life was shot. He went through several years of agony and walking rehabs, etc, and the union forced him to fight for every benefit he'd been paying dues for all those years. Meanwhile, as the union tried to get out of their obligations, he was barely getting his mortgage paid, maxing out all his credit (this with a wife and four children) and just getting by. His wife ended up having to take a job teaching to keep them above ground, and it took him over 5 years of legal battles to get a disability pension from the union.

Just another case of a union, working for its members.

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Nov 20, 2020 13:55:36   #
JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida
 
DASHY wrote:
Trump's objections to Federal employee unions is the protection against being fired for no reason at all. If a Federal employee shows one iota of disloyalty to KING Trump, he wants to be able to fire him on the spot. We have seen hundreds of good, experienced, well trained Federal employees get fired by Trump over the last four years.


That's a lie. Federal employees enjoy the same protections as any worker. I haven't seen or missed one well trained Federal Employee. When Obama took office he let go almost all Bush appointees? It's what presidents do. I'll bet you were all for those highly trained employees going. You are stuck on dumb because of your ideology. Take the emotion out of your opinions. Might actually look intelligent.

Reply
Nov 20, 2020 14:56:40   #
DASHY
 
Seth wrote:
Never been in a union.

I will be the first to say that when they began unionizing in America, it was a good thing as the unions actually represented the employees. Today unions are all about squeezing companies like sponges, not for the members but to be able to increase dues and make more money for themselves. They threaten strikes if an employer doesn't want to pay more than what the marketplace values a job at or more than the employer can afford, and we see downsizing or companies simply closing altogether -- now nobody there has a job -- and fleeing offshore.

Public sector unions know they can get away with more because those they negotiate with have no bottom line to consider, because "it's only the taxpayer's money."

One reason I have no use for unions is an experience my best friend had.

He was a member of a carpenters' union for decades, working for NYC, and while in his 50s blew his knees out on the job and required mechanical implants in order to be able to walk again, but basically his entire working life was shot. He went through several years of agony and walking rehabs, etc, and the union forced him to fight for every benefit he'd been paying dues for all those years. Meanwhile, as the union tried to get out of their obligations, he was barely getting his mortgage paid, maxing out all his credit (this with a wife and four children) and just getting by. His wife ended up having to take a job teaching to keep them above ground, and it took him over 5 years of legal battles to get a disability pension from the union.

Just another case of a union, working for its members.
Never been in a union. br br I will be the first ... (show quote)


You have never been in a union, but you imagine "unions are all about squeezing companies like sponges....to make more money for themselves." You have no use for unions because your friend had to fight for his benefits which ended with a disability pension from the union which may have allowed him to retire while in his 50s. Many wives work. Not all injured carpenters get disability pensions from a union. Sounds like he's one of the lucky ones.

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Nov 20, 2020 15:02:28   #
DASHY
 
JFlorio wrote:
That's a lie. Federal employees enjoy the same protections as any worker. I haven't seen or missed one well trained Federal Employee. When Obama took office he let go almost all Bush appointees? It's what presidents do. I'll bet you were all for those highly trained employees going. You are stuck on dumb because of your ideology. Take the emotion out of your opinions. Might actually look intelligent.


Many Federal employees working during the Trump administration got no protections from being fired by Trump for no other reason than failing to kiss his ass.

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Nov 20, 2020 15:43:14   #
JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida
 
DASHY wrote:
Many Federal employees working during the Trump administration got no protections from being fired by Trump for no other reason than failing to kiss his ass.


Don't care. Besides, that's just a non-provable talking point. You do not know why they were really fired. Every fired employee I've ever known says they did nothing wrong.

Reply
Nov 20, 2020 15:47:13   #
Seth
 
DASHY wrote:
You have never been in a union, but you imagine "unions are all about squeezing companies like sponges....to make more money for themselves." You have no use for unions because your friend had to fight for his benefits which ended with a disability pension from the union which may have allowed him to retire while in his 50s. Many wives work. Not all injured carpenters get disability pensions from a union. Sounds like he's one of the lucky ones.


It was in his union contract that should he be disabled by a job related accident or condition, his years of dues paying covered disability.

It was a NYC employee carpenter's union.

And that isn't my entire reason for disliking unions, no. I have seen the way they milk companies.

Another example came along back in the 1980s when I worked on Wall Street and union carpenters, electricians and telephone techs were installing a new futures trading floor in our building.

Another came seeing how the longshoremens' and freight handlers' unions milked stevedore firms on the Mississippi riverfront in New Orleans with manpower requirements for container gangs that increased well above the required size of regular hold gangs despite the need for half the numbers and much less hazardous operations.

In both cases the companies were essentially paying for a whole lot of unneeded people to stand around doing nothing for more than half a day, at wages that were very high in that time and place, with no expected or contingent reason for them to be there.

This same type of thing happens among government union workers, especially those in white collar capacities, only more along the lines of people giving the taxpayer three or four hours' worth of work in an 8 hour day and enjoying a hell of a lot more in salary and benefits (a job paying about $45k in the private sector can be paying $75 or $80k in a government job in which a lazy or incompetent person is almost impossible to fire).

I have seen and heard, from the proverbial horse's mouth, other samplings as well.

Reply
Nov 20, 2020 19:46:00   #
DASHY
 
Seth wrote:
It was in his union contract that should he be disabled by a job related accident or condition, his years of dues paying covered disability.

It was a NYC employee carpenter's union.

And that isn't my entire reason for disliking unions, no. I have seen the way they milk companies.

Another example came along back in the 1980s when I worked on Wall Street and union carpenters, electricians and telephone techs were installing a new futures trading floor in our building.

Another came seeing how the longshoremens' and freight handlers' unions milked stevedore firms on the Mississippi riverfront in New Orleans with manpower requirements for container gangs that increased well above the required size of regular hold gangs despite the need for half the numbers and much less hazardous operations.

In both cases the companies were essentially paying for a whole lot of unneeded people to stand around doing nothing for more than half a day, at wages that were very high in that time and place, with no expected or contingent reason for them to be there.

This same type of thing happens among government union workers, especially those in white collar capacities, only more along the lines of people giving the taxpayer three or four hours' worth of work in an 8 hour day and enjoying a hell of a lot more in salary and benefits (a job paying about $45k in the private sector can be paying $75 or $80k in a government job in which a lazy or incompetent person is almost impossible to fire).

I have seen and heard, from the proverbial horse's mouth, other samplings as well.
It was in his union contract that should he be dis... (show quote)


Whose horse's mouth are you listening to? Do you think the NYC carpenters union "milked the company" when the union got him a disability pension? Is your union friend lazy or incompetent and undeserving of the pension?

Reply
 
 
Nov 20, 2020 20:10:34   #
Seth
 
DASHY wrote:
Whose horse's mouth are you listening to? Do you think the NYC carpenters union "milked the company" when the union got him a disability pension? Is your union friend lazy or incompetent and undeserving of the pension?


For an accountant, you don't listen very well.

The point is that while they were more than happy to take his dues, they were not all that forthcoming with holding up their end of the contract.

He was nearly ruined by the interval and meantime expenses while he had to fight over something the union was obligated to deal with in the first place. Is there something there that's difficult for you to grasp?

And I did differentiate between public and private sector unions. Maybe you're cherry picking words in some strange order known only to you. Should I be typing words and sentences backwards and then swapping random words between one sentence and another so you can try to cherry pick more accurately?

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Nov 20, 2020 20:17:43   #
JFlorio Loc: Seminole Florida
 
Educated progressives suddenly turn super stupid when it comes to common sense or politics.

Seth wrote:
For an accountant, you don't listen very well.

The point is that while they were more than happy to take his dues, they were not all that forthcoming with holding up their end of the contract.

He was nearly ruined by the interval and meantime expenses while he had to fight over something the union was obligated to deal with in the first place. Is there something there that's difficult for you to grasp?

And I did differentiate between public and private sector unions. Maybe you're cherry picking words in some strange order known only to you. Should I be typing words and sentences backwards and then swapping random words between one sentence and another so you can try to cherry pick more accurately?
For an accountant, you don't listen very well. br ... (show quote)

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Nov 20, 2020 20:21:16   #
Seth
 
JFlorio wrote:
Educated progressives suddenly turn super stupid when it comes to common sense or politics.


Amen to that!

Reply
Nov 20, 2020 20:58:05   #
Kickaha Loc: Nebraska
 
Seth wrote:
Perhaps it's just me, but I have never worked for an employer that didn't take good care of its assets. I'm sure there are those who don't, but that's what a good pair of feet is for.


Employers who don't treat their employees fairly, have higher turn over rates, lower rates of long-term employees and have a harder time filling openings. This is the only union I have ever been in, this is because the company (based out of Philadelphia) is a union company. They have offered good compensation, partly due to the union contract, but after Trump's Jobs Act they doubled our contractual raise and held the line on our healthcare rate increase.

Reply
 
 
Nov 20, 2020 21:02:35   #
Seth
 
Kickaha wrote:
Employers who don't treat their employees fairly, have higher turn over rates, lower rates of long-term employees and have a harder time filling openings. This is the only union I have ever been in, this is because the company (based out of Philadelphia) is a union company. They have offered good compensation, partly due to the union contract, but after Trump's Jobs Act they doubled our contractual raise and held the line on our healthcare rate increase.


See? The Trump economy strikes again!

Reply
Nov 20, 2020 21:06:42   #
Kickaha Loc: Nebraska
 
Seth wrote:
It was in his union contract that should he be disabled by a job related accident or condition, his years of dues paying covered disability.

It was a NYC employee carpenter's union.

And that isn't my entire reason for disliking unions, no. I have seen the way they milk companies.

Another example came along back in the 1980s when I worked on Wall Street and union carpenters, electricians and telephone techs were installing a new futures trading floor in our building.

Another came seeing how the longshoremens' and freight handlers' unions milked stevedore firms on the Mississippi riverfront in New Orleans with manpower requirements for container gangs that increased well above the required size of regular hold gangs despite the need for half the numbers and much less hazardous operations.

In both cases the companies were essentially paying for a whole lot of unneeded people to stand around doing nothing for more than half a day, at wages that were very high in that time and place, with no expected or contingent reason for them to be there.

This same type of thing happens among government union workers, especially those in white collar capacities, only more along the lines of people giving the taxpayer three or four hours' worth of work in an 8 hour day and enjoying a hell of a lot more in salary and benefits (a job paying about $45k in the private sector can be paying $75 or $80k in a government job in which a lazy or incompetent person is almost impossible to fire).

I have seen and heard, from the proverbial horse's mouth, other samplings as well.
It was in his union contract that should he be dis... (show quote)


It's a very simple game the union asks for the moon and the company offers pennies. Through negotiations they meet somewhere in the middle. The automakers got in a bad situation because the the union asked for the moon and the automakers, while things were booming failed to take into account that it wouldn't last forever, didn't negotiate and just gave the union what they wanted. A few years later, the auto market crashed and the companies were barely able to cover the current contract much less what the unions were asking for in the new contract.

Reply
Nov 20, 2020 21:37:00   #
Seth
 
Kickaha wrote:
It's a very simple game the union asks for the moon and the company offers pennies. Through negotiations they meet somewhere in the middle. The automakers got in a bad situation because the the union asked for the moon and the automakers, while things were booming failed to take into account that it wouldn't last forever, didn't negotiate and just gave the union what they wanted. A few years later, the auto market crashed and the companies were barely able to cover the current contract much less what the unions were asking for in the new contract.
It's a very simple game the union asks for the moo... (show quote)


I've heard about unions catching companies when they were in trouble and couldn't afford to stop production, and knowing that, exploiting the situation when the company could least afford to compensate employees any more than they were at the time.

That is one of the things that lead to downsizing and outsourcing, and suddenly the union has "negotiated" its members out of a job.

That's one difference between private and public sector unions.

The government bureaucrats involved don't have shareholders (unless one counts the taxpayer, who always seems to be the last consideration) to answer to or financial bottom lines to worry about, and higher budget numbers look good on their resumes.

Another friend with whom I grew up is also a tradesman for the city of NY. One day he showed me how between all his vacation days, sick and personal days and other annually alotted paid days off, if he worked for five years without using any of it, he could take an entire paid year off.

Reply
Nov 21, 2020 08:11:11   #
DASHY
 
Seth wrote:
I've heard about unions catching companies when they were in trouble and couldn't afford to stop production, and knowing that, exploiting the situation when the company could least afford to compensate employees any more than they were at the time.

That is one of the things that lead to downsizing and outsourcing, and suddenly the union has "negotiated" its members out of a job.

That's one difference between private and public sector unions.

The government bureaucrats involved don't have shareholders (unless one counts the taxpayer, who always seems to be the last consideration) to answer to or financial bottom lines to worry about, and higher budget numbers look good on their resumes.

Another friend with whom I grew up is also a tradesman for the city of NY. One day he showed me how between all his vacation days, sick and personal days and other annually alotted paid days off, if he worked for five years without using any of it, he could take an entire paid year off.
I've heard about unions catching companies when th... (show quote)


I guess we all agree. Unions represent the best interests of the workers. A disability pension for life and a year off with pay. Not bad!!!

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