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Amillenniallism vs premillienalism
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Jan 25, 2020 05:16:53   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Thank you for your kind observation and comment, Canuckus.

Yet, you did say earlier you were content to wait...

meaning, I suppose, without forming an opinion as to what will happen or in what sequence.

...so have you now formed any personal opinion on an endtime scenario?



Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Think both Zemirah and Mr. Rogers have done an excellent job on this thread...

Very delightful to see such a thoughtful discussion...

Reply
Jan 26, 2020 15:43:00   #
Mr. Rogers
 
Zemirah wrote:
The Bible is clear that resurrection is a reality and this life is not all that there is. While death is the end of physical life, it is not the end of human existence. Many erroneously believe that there is one general resurrection at the end of the age, but the Bible teaches that there will be not one resurrection, but a series of resurrections, some to eternal life in heaven and some to eternal damnation (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29).

The first great resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is documented in each of the four Gospels (Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20), cited several times in Acts (Acts 1:22; 2:31; 4:2, 33; 26:23), and mentioned repeatedly in the letters to the churches (Romans 1:4; Philippians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:3).

Much is made of the importance of Christ’s resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-34, which records that over five hundred people saw Him at one of His post-resurrection appearances. Christ’s resurrection is the “first fruits” or guarantee to every Christian that he will also be resurrected. Christ’s resurrection is also the basis of the Christian’s certainty that all people who have died will one day be raised to face fair and even-handed judgment by Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30-31). The resurrection to eternal life is described as “the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5-6); the resurrection to judgment and torment is described as “the second death” (Revelation 20:6, 13-15).

The first great resurrection of the Church will occur at the time of the rapture. All those who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ during the Church Age, and have died before Jesus returns, will be resurrected at the rapture. The Church Age began on the Day of Pentecost and will end when Christ returns to take believers back to heaven with Him (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The Apostle Paul explained that not all Christians will die, but all will be changed, i.e., given resurrection-type bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50-58), some without having to die! Christians who are alive, and those who have already died, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him always!

Another great resurrection will occur when Christ returns to earth (His Second Coming) at the end of the Tribulation period. After the rapture, the Tribulation is the next event after the Church Age in God’s chronology. This will be a time of terrible judgment upon the world, described in great detail in Revelation chapters 6-18. Though all Church Age believers will be gone, millions of people left behind on earth will come to their senses during this time and will trust in Jesus as their Savior. Tragically, most of them will pay for their faith in Jesus by losing their lives (Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 13:7, 15-17; 17:6; 19:1-2).

These believers in Jesus who die during the Tribulation will be resurrected at Christ’s return and will reign with Him for a thousand years during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4, 6). Old Testament believers such as Job, Noah, Abraham, David and even John the Baptist (who was assassinated before the Church began) will be resurrected at this time also.

Several passages in the Old Testament mention this event (Job 19:25-27; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:1-2; Hosea 13:14). Ezekiel 37:1-14 describes primarily the regathering of the Nation of Israel using the symbolism of dead corpses returning to life, indicating a physical resurrection of their dead in the passage.

All believers in God during the Old Testament era, and all believers in Jesus in the New Testament will participate in the first resurrection, a resurrection to life (Revelation 20:4, 6).

Another resurrection at the end of the Millennium, is implied, but never explicitly stated in Scripture... some believers will die a physical death during the Millennium. Through the prophet Isaiah, God said, "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed” (Isaiah 65:20).

It is also possible that death in the Millennium will only come to the disobedient. In either event, transformation will be required to fit believers in their natural bodies in the Millennium for pristine existence throughout eternity. Each believer will require a “resurrected” type of body.

Scripture teaches that God will destroy the entire universe, including the earth, with fire (2 Peter 3:7-12). This will be necessary to purge God’s creation of its endemic evil and decay brought upon it by man’s sin. In its place God will create a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).

What will happen to those believers who survived the Tribulation and entered the Millennium in their natural bodies?

What will happen to those who were born during the Millennium, trusted in Jesus, and continued to live in their natural bodies?

Paul made it clear that flesh and blood, which is mortal and able to decay, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It is inhabitable only by those with resurrected, glorified bodies that are no longer mortal and are not able to decay (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). These believers will be given resurrection bodies without having to die. Theologically, this must happen in the transition from the old earth and universe to the new earth and new heaven (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).

There is a final resurrection, apparently of all the unbelieving dead of all ages. Jesus Christ will raise them from the dead (John 5:25-29) after the Millennium, the thousand-year reign of Christ (Revelation 20:5), and after the destruction of the present earth and universe (2 Peter 3:7-12; Revelation 20:11). This is the resurrection described by Daniel as an awakening “from the dust of the ground ... to disgrace and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). It is described by Jesus as a “resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29).

The Apostle John saw something that would happen in the future. He saw a “great white throne” (Revelation 20:11). Heaven and earth “fled away” from the One sitting on it. This is evidently a description of the dissolution by fire of all matter, including the entire universe and earth itself (2 Peter 3:7-12). All the (godless) dead will stand before the throne. This means they have been resurrected after the thousand years (Revelation 20:5).

They will possess bodies that can feel pain but will never cease to exist (Mark 9:43-48). They will be judged, and their punishment will be commensurate with their works. But there is another book opened—the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 21:27). Those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the “lake of fire,” which amounts to “the second death” (Revelation 20:11-15).

No indication is given of any who appear at this judgment that their names are found in the book of life. Rather, those whose names appear in the book of life were among those who are blessed, for they received forgiveness and partook of the first resurrection, the resurrection to life (Revelation 20:6).


Got Questions.org
Heaven by Randy Alcorn
The Bible is clear that resurrection is a reality ... (show quote)



Revelation
Chapter 11
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

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Reply
Jan 26, 2020 15:46:07   #
Mr. Rogers
 
Zemirah wrote:
The Bible is clear that resurrection is a reality and this life is not all that there is. While death is the end of physical life, it is not the end of human existence. Many erroneously believe that there is one general resurrection at the end of the age, but the Bible teaches that there will be not one resurrection, but a series of resurrections, some to eternal life in heaven and some to eternal damnation (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29).

The first great resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is documented in each of the four Gospels (Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20), cited several times in Acts (Acts 1:22; 2:31; 4:2, 33; 26:23), and mentioned repeatedly in the letters to the churches (Romans 1:4; Philippians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:3).

Much is made of the importance of Christ’s resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-34, which records that over five hundred people saw Him at one of His post-resurrection appearances. Christ’s resurrection is the “first fruits” or guarantee to every Christian that he will also be resurrected. Christ’s resurrection is also the basis of the Christian’s certainty that all people who have died will one day be raised to face fair and even-handed judgment by Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30-31). The resurrection to eternal life is described as “the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5-6); the resurrection to judgment and torment is described as “the second death” (Revelation 20:6, 13-15).

The first great resurrection of the Church will occur at the time of the rapture. All those who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ during the Church Age, and have died before Jesus returns, will be resurrected at the rapture. The Church Age began on the Day of Pentecost and will end when Christ returns to take believers back to heaven with Him (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The Apostle Paul explained that not all Christians will die, but all will be changed, i.e., given resurrection-type bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50-58), some without having to die! Christians who are alive, and those who have already died, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him always!

Another great resurrection will occur when Christ returns to earth (His Second Coming) at the end of the Tribulation period. After the rapture, the Tribulation is the next event after the Church Age in God’s chronology. This will be a time of terrible judgment upon the world, described in great detail in Revelation chapters 6-18. Though all Church Age believers will be gone, millions of people left behind on earth will come to their senses during this time and will trust in Jesus as their Savior. Tragically, most of them will pay for their faith in Jesus by losing their lives (Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 13:7, 15-17; 17:6; 19:1-2).

These believers in Jesus who die during the Tribulation will be resurrected at Christ’s return and will reign with Him for a thousand years during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4, 6). Old Testament believers such as Job, Noah, Abraham, David and even John the Baptist (who was assassinated before the Church began) will be resurrected at this time also.

Several passages in the Old Testament mention this event (Job 19:25-27; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:1-2; Hosea 13:14). Ezekiel 37:1-14 describes primarily the regathering of the Nation of Israel using the symbolism of dead corpses returning to life, indicating a physical resurrection of their dead in the passage.

All believers in God during the Old Testament era, and all believers in Jesus in the New Testament will participate in the first resurrection, a resurrection to life (Revelation 20:4, 6).

Another resurrection at the end of the Millennium, is implied, but never explicitly stated in Scripture... some believers will die a physical death during the Millennium. Through the prophet Isaiah, God said, "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed” (Isaiah 65:20).

It is also possible that death in the Millennium will only come to the disobedient. In either event, transformation will be required to fit believers in their natural bodies in the Millennium for pristine existence throughout eternity. Each believer will require a “resurrected” type of body.

Scripture teaches that God will destroy the entire universe, including the earth, with fire (2 Peter 3:7-12). This will be necessary to purge God’s creation of its endemic evil and decay brought upon it by man’s sin. In its place God will create a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).

What will happen to those believers who survived the Tribulation and entered the Millennium in their natural bodies?

What will happen to those who were born during the Millennium, trusted in Jesus, and continued to live in their natural bodies?

Paul made it clear that flesh and blood, which is mortal and able to decay, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It is inhabitable only by those with resurrected, glorified bodies that are no longer mortal and are not able to decay (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). These believers will be given resurrection bodies without having to die. Theologically, this must happen in the transition from the old earth and universe to the new earth and new heaven (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).

There is a final resurrection, apparently of all the unbelieving dead of all ages. Jesus Christ will raise them from the dead (John 5:25-29) after the Millennium, the thousand-year reign of Christ (Revelation 20:5), and after the destruction of the present earth and universe (2 Peter 3:7-12; Revelation 20:11). This is the resurrection described by Daniel as an awakening “from the dust of the ground ... to disgrace and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). It is described by Jesus as a “resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29).

The Apostle John saw something that would happen in the future. He saw a “great white throne” (Revelation 20:11). Heaven and earth “fled away” from the One sitting on it. This is evidently a description of the dissolution by fire of all matter, including the entire universe and earth itself (2 Peter 3:7-12). All the (godless) dead will stand before the throne. This means they have been resurrected after the thousand years (Revelation 20:5).

They will possess bodies that can feel pain but will never cease to exist (Mark 9:43-48). They will be judged, and their punishment will be commensurate with their works. But there is another book opened—the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 21:27). Those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the “lake of fire,” which amounts to “the second death” (Revelation 20:11-15).

No indication is given of any who appear at this judgment that their names are found in the book of life. Rather, those whose names appear in the book of life were among those who are blessed, for they received forgiveness and partook of the first resurrection, the resurrection to life (Revelation 20:6).


Got Questions.org
Heaven by Randy Alcorn
The Bible is clear that resurrection is a reality ... (show quote)


Revelation
Chapter 11
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Reply
 
 
Jan 26, 2020 16:29:02   #
Mr. Rogers
 
The rapture occurs at the last trump which is after the 144,000 are sealed and the two witnesses are killed (see Revelations 11: 14, 15 above).

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an ...
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be.

All of this is happening at the end of the tribulation period under the rule of the anti-Christ before the wrath if God is poured out upon the earth. This is post tribulationalism and before the pre-millennial reign of Jesus Christ (King of the Jews) on earth.

The anti-christ will rule for 3 1/2 years. But God says he will shorten the days.
Matthew 24:22-24
King James Version
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Christians who are circumcised in heart are Jews.

Romans 2:29
“But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Reply
Jan 26, 2020 21:16:51   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Regarding Romans 2:29...

what will follow after death; which is called judgment to come, is represented as certain, will be universal as to persons and things, and is here called "the judgment of God", in opposition to the judgment of men; because it will be carried on by God only, who is omniscient and omnipotent, and will be definitive: this is and will be, according to truth, in opposition to all hypocrisy and unrighteousness: by which all have enjoyed the Gospel revelation, will be judged; or the truth of their own consciences in them all: now we may be sure of this judgment; and of its being according to truth, from reason, from Scripture, and from the being and perfections of God. (Gill Commentary)

It is written to those within the church; placed in context:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

…26 "If a man who is not circumcised keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 The one who is physically uncircumcised yet keeps the Law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical.…
29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God."

Cross References:

John 5:44
How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 12:43
For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.



Mr. Rogers wrote:
Christians who are circumcised in heart are Jews.

Romans 2:29
“But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Reply
Jan 26, 2020 22:33:58   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
The Last Trump (1st Thessalonians 4:16) vs The Seventh Trumpet (Revelation 11:15)

The Last Trump is not part of the sequence of judgments on mankind… whereas, the Seventh Trumpet is!

The Lord has not given us a doctrinal treatise on prophecy like that which the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write on salvation in the book of Romans, rather, prophecy is spread throughout the Old and New Testament and must be carefully studied in order to learn and to be able to see "the big picture" which God has designed.

Daniel 8:25-26 "Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; and he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without human means. "And the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true; therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future." (referring to the false messiah, the anti-Christ, who brings ruin and who is to be dealt with by God’s supernatural power).

Daniel is told to seal the vision, the word seal means to stop up, to keep close, even to keep secret. In other word’s it is to be reserved for the future.

"seal 1 (sēl)
n.
1.
a. A device or material that is used to close off or fasten an opening or connection, especially to prevent the escape of a liquid or gas: used caulk as a seal around the window.
b. An airtight closure: a door that lacks a tight seal.
c. Something, such as a piece of tape, that is placed on a product or package to show that the contents have not been tampered with.
d. The water in the trap of a drain that prevents sewer gas from escaping into a room.
2.
a. A design used to identify a person or thing or to show that something is authentic, accurate, or of good quality: The title page is marked with the publisher's seal. Does the scale have the inspector's seal?
b. A small decorative paper sticker.
3.
a. A die or signet having a raised or incised emblem used to stamp an impression on a receptive substance such as wax or lead.
b. The impression so made.
c. The design or emblem itself, belonging exclusively to the user: a monarch's seal.
d. A small disk or wafer of wax, lead, or paper bearing such an imprint and affixed to a document to prove authenticity or to secure it.
4. An indication or symbol regarded as guaranteeing or authenticating something: The choral director gave the program his seal of approval."


Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

There are numerous facets here, one of which is the 70th week.

In the last chapter of Daniels' book, which is a revelation (a vision) of the Jewish people, he is again told to seal the book, and that the understanding will be revealed at a time when both travel and knowledge increases (which will first and foremost be Biblical knowledge and then worldly knowledge),

Dan. 12:2-4: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever. "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

So then, it was impossible for the early church or those through church history to know exactly what these prophecies meant or how they would transpire until the time of the season itself, (the time of this increase of traveling and knowledge); the time of the end.

The seven trumpet[s] of Revelation are judgments upon the earth, not a call to gather believers unto Christ.

The 7th trumpet is the last in the series of trumpets by the 7 angels to announce judgment, it is an expression of God’s wrath. Rev 8:6, so the seven angels who have the seven trumpets “prepared themselves to sound”, in v.13 the angel at the end of the fourth trumpet says, “Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth by reason of three more remaining blasts of the trumpet by the three angels which have yet to sound!” These three more “woes” refer to the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets.

After the 7 trumpets there are no more Trumpets mentioned in the book of Revelation.

The 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the resurrection. The seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation announces judgment, it is not the same trumpet the Lord calls the precious dead and alive saints in Christ up to himself. The last trump for believers is a blessing, any similarities found do not mean sameness.

There is no connection here with the resurrection trumpet. The trumpet of the seventh angel in Revelation covers a period of days, it is a catastrophic judgment, the trumpet that sounds for the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.

This 7th trumpet signals the beginning of the bowl judgments where the worst devastation is about to begin, this demonstrates that it is a different trumpet than the one mentioned in 1st Cor. 15 and 1st Thess. 4, called "the last trump."

The phrase, "last trump[et]", does NOT occur anywhere in the Bible except in 1st Cor. 15:52; and the only other mention of a trumpet for the believers is mentioned in 1st Thess. 4:16, which is the accompanying verse referring to a transformation by both a resurrection and being caught up to Jesus in the air.

Unfortunately so many miss these important factors in Gods word and ignore what it teaches because it does not fit the construct of what they have been taught.


David Cooper, Ph.D. Doctor of Philosophy; D.D. (Doctor of Divinity); Litt.D. (Doctor of Letters). ariel.org--

http://ariel.org/dlc/dlc.htm

Dr. Cooper who believes it is a pre-tribulation rapture) writes:

“In Revelation 11:15 we read that the angel who had the seventh, the last, trumpet sounded it. This is done in the very middle of the Tribulation, as one who is familiar with that book realizes. Some earnest students connect Paul's statement with reference to the rapture's occurring at the last trumpet and conclude that his reference is to the seventh or last trumpet of Revelation. Upon this supposition, these excellent brethren conclude that the rapture takes place in the middle of the Tribulation...

But this is not at all a necessary inference when one realizes that [b]the Corinthian letter was written by Paul, no later than 58 A.D. and that "Revelation" was given to John in 96 A.D. — practically 40 years later — he can readily see that Paul did not have the trumpets of Revelation in mind, in fact, we may be absolutely certain in asserting that Paul knew nothing about the seven trumpets of Revelation, because the message of that book had not yet been given in his day…

It is therefore illogical for one to attempt to build a "Post-Tribulation" theory regarding the rapture upon the supposed connection between the Corinthian and Thessalonian letters and the book of Revelation. A knowledge of the chronological development of the New Testament precludes such a supposition (pivotal dates in biblical history)”

So we see that we can understand through the Apostle Paul's words inspired by the Holy Spirit that the mention of this trumpet – (the last trump) will announce the Lord Himself descending from heaven into our atmosphere...when we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. (1st Thess. 4:17)

Why do we meet the Lord in the air and not on the earth?

The reason we are meeting the Lord in the air is because we are going away from planet earth exactly as he promised Jesus said:“ I go to prepare a place for you and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:1-3).

This should settle the matter of a rapture but, in the minds of those who reject a rapture it does not, only because they do not want it to, the RAPTURE is not a deception (as they say) but, rather it is A promise that the Lord gave, and will keep.

Where does Jesus reside? In heaven, where he said “that where I am you may be also.” This can only make sense if one understands the sequences and reason for this event.

As the Lord was brought up to the Father, in similar fashion (Acts 1:11) we the church, his body will be taken by the Son to the Father.

The trumpet sound for the rapture of the Church in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, as Jesus comes and calls his church up to Him, transformed to be like Him. What a glorious precious promise to all who have believed.

The Lord reveals many things through the Jewish feast days, one example is:

That the First group of four feast days occur all within 50 days:

1) Passover Lev. 23:5 - 2) Unleavened Bread v:6-8

3)First Fruit 23:9-14 - 4) Pentecost 15-22


2nd group of Feasts (3) which concludes with the second coming:

1) Trumpets or Remembrance Lev. 23:23-24

2) Day of Atonement Lev. 23:25-32

3) Tabernacles Lev. 23:33-44

What is the term "the last Trump?"

It has everything to do with the Feast days that are grouped with the fall feasts. There are 7 Feast days, (rehearsals), every feast was a shadow for Israel to repeat each year until it had its fulfillment in Christ Messiah, 4 are past, 3 are future.

At the feast of trumpets the trumpet is blown a total of 100 times, divided into four different types of notes. The first is a single, long blast called Tekiah, this is a plain smooth, continuous note symbolizing joy and contentment.

The second type of sound is the Shevarim, consisting of three short blasts or broken notes…

The third is: Truah which consists of extremely short blasts comprised of nine staccato notes, this quick succession of short trills expresses trepidation and sorrow, these three types of blasts are repeated…

The fourth concludes all with a single, sustained note; called the Tekiah Gedolah, meaning “the great tekiah,” “the great blast,” or “the last trump.” (referenced from the teaching of Dr. Fruchtenbaum)

In the Greek wording 1st Cor.15: 52 reads – eschatos - sal'pinx; the last in a series of quavering or reverberation from the trumpet, it is the last note blown, the 100th note and the trumpeter holds it as long as he can.

But The last trump – in the gathering and rapture of the holy ones of the church, means the last blowing of a trumpet as in the Feast of trumpets, the followers of Christ will be changed together… "for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

This trumpet is not part of the sequence of judgments on mankind…

For those who reject a rapture or those who believe in a post tribulation rapture, to use the trumpet that announces judgment to unsaved mankind for the greatest event for the church (our being changed to immortality, without sin) is simply not justified, for this can only be the trumpet for the separate event of the rapture!

The only place one can find another trumpet (besides the judgments trumpets) related to this is in the Feast days, this all makes sense when one takes the time to study the feast days. 4 feasts have been fulfilled- 3 feasts are left, which are completed by this succession (just as the first 4 were).

First (Trumpets) is the rapture, gathering of the Saints in Christ to Christ.

Second, the Tribulation (Day of Atonement) where Israel is chastened, repents and is saved.

Third, then the Second Coming (Tabernacles), where Jesus returns to be with his people, He rescues Israel first; destroys the armies of the antichrist and the wicked, then begins the Millennial Reign of Christ.

In this succession that is fulfilled by Christ where the Feast of Trumpets historically precedes the Day of Atonement; the Rapture will precede the GREAT Tribulation.

The next feast after this is the Day of Atonement which represents peace made with God, reconciliation, where Israel repents near the end of the Tribulation before His return.

The last fall Feast is Tabernacles “God is with us on earth”.
The return of Jesus on earth begins the kingdom.
The Messiah is ruling over the nations, the Old and New Testament saints are united and serving in His kingdom.



Mr. Rogers wrote:
The rapture occurs at the last trump which is after the 144,000 are sealed and the two witnesses are killed (see Revelations 11: 14, 15 above).

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an ...
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be.

All of this is happening at the end of the tribulation period under the rule of the anti-Christ before the wrath if God is poured out upon the earth. This is post tribulationalism and before the pre-millennial reign of Jesus Christ (King of the Jews) on earth.

The anti-christ will rule for 3 1/2 years. But God says he will shorten the days.
Matthew 24:22-24
King James Version
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The rapture occurs at the last trump which is afte... (show quote)

Reply
Jan 27, 2020 16:15:15   #
Mr. Rogers
 
[quote=Zemirah]The Last Trump (1st Thessalonians 4:16) vs The Seventh Trumpet (Revelation 11:15)

The Last Trump is not part of the sequence of judgments on mankind… whereas, the Seventh Trumpet is!

The Lord has not given us a doctrinal treatise on prophecy like that which the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write on salvation in the book of Romans, rather, prophecy is spread throughout the Old and New Testament and must be carefully studied in order to learn and to be able to see "the big picture" which God has designed.

Daniel 8:25-26 "Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; and he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without human means. "And the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true; therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future." (referring to the false messiah, the anti-Christ, who brings ruin and who is to be dealt with by God’s supernatural power).

Daniel is told to seal the vision, the word seal means to stop up, to keep close, even to keep secret. In other word’s it is to be reserved for the future.

"seal 1 (sēl)
n.
1.
a. A device or material that is used to close off or fasten an opening or connection, especially to prevent the escape of a liquid or gas: used caulk as a seal around the window.
b. An airtight closure: a door that lacks a tight seal.
c. Something, such as a piece of tape, that is placed on a product or package to show that the contents have not been tampered with.
d. The water in the trap of a drain that prevents sewer gas from escaping into a room.
2.
a. A design used to identify a person or thing or to show that something is authentic, accurate, or of good quality: The title page is marked with the publisher's seal. Does the scale have the inspector's seal?
b. A small decorative paper sticker.
3.
a. A die or signet having a raised or incised emblem used to stamp an impression on a receptive substance such as wax or lead.
b. The impression so made.
c. The design or emblem itself, belonging exclusively to the user: a monarch's seal.
d. A small disk or wafer of wax, lead, or paper bearing such an imprint and affixed to a document to prove authenticity or to secure it.
4. An indication or symbol regarded as guaranteeing or authenticating something: The choral director gave the program his seal of approval."


Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

There are numerous facets here, one of which is the 70th week.

In the last chapter of Daniels' book, which is a revelation (a vision) of the Jewish people, he is again told to seal the book, and that the understanding will be revealed at a time when both travel and knowledge increases (which will first and foremost be Biblical knowledge and then worldly knowledge),

Dan. 12:2-4: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever. "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

So then, it was impossible for the early church or those through church history to know exactly what these prophecies meant or how they would transpire until the time of the season itself, (the time of this increase of traveling and knowledge); the time of the end.

The seven trumpet[s] of Revelation are judgments upon the earth, not a call to gather believers unto Christ.

The 7th trumpet is the last in the series of trumpets by the 7 angels to announce judgment, it is an expression of God’s wrath. Rev 8:6, so the seven angels who have the seven trumpets “prepared themselves to sound”, in v.13 the angel at the end of the fourth trumpet says, “Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth by reason of three more remaining blasts of the trumpet by the three angels which have yet to sound!” These three more “woes” refer to the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets.

After the 7 trumpets there are no more Trumpets mentioned in the book of Revelation.

The 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the resurrection. The seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation announces judgment, it is not the same trumpet the Lord calls the precious dead and alive saints in Christ up to himself. The last trump for believers is a blessing, any similarities found do not mean sameness.

There is no connection here with the resurrection trumpet. The trumpet of the seventh angel in Revelation covers a period of days, it is a catastrophic judgment, the trumpet that sounds for the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.

This 7th trumpet signals the beginning of the bowl judgments where the worst devastation is about to begin, this demonstrates that it is a different trumpet than the one mentioned in 1st Cor. 15 and 1st Thess. 4, called "the last trump."

The phrase, "last trump[et]", does NOT occur anywhere in the Bible except in 1st Cor. 15:52; and the only other mention of a trumpet for the believers is mentioned in 1st Thess. 4:16, which is the accompanying verse referring to a transformation by both a resurrection and being caught up to Jesus in the air.

Unfortunately so many miss these important factors in Gods word and ignore what it teaches because it does not fit the construct of what they have been taught.


David Cooper, Ph.D. Doctor of Philosophy; D.D. (Doctor of Divinity); Litt.D. (Doctor of Letters). ariel.org--

http://ariel.org/dlc/dlc.htm

Dr. Cooper who believes it is a pre-tribulation rapture) writes:

“In Revelation 11:15 we read that the angel who had the seventh, the last, trumpet sounded it. This is done in the very middle of the Tribulation, as one who is familiar with that book realizes. Some earnest students connect Paul's statement with reference to the rapture's occurring at the last trumpet and conclude that his reference is to the seventh or last trumpet of Revelation. Upon this supposition, these excellent brethren conclude that the rapture takes place in the middle of the Tribulation...

But this is not at all a necessary inference when one realizes that [b]the Corinthian letter was written by Paul, no later than 58 A.D. and that "Revelation" was given to John in 96 A.D. — practically 40 years later — he can readily see that Paul did not have the trumpets of Revelation in mind, in fact, we may be absolutely certain in asserting that Paul knew nothing about the seven trumpets of Revelation, because the message of that book had not yet been given in his day…

It is therefore illogical for one to attempt to build a "Post-Tribulation" theory regarding the rapture upon the supposed connection between the Corinthian and Thessalonian letters and the book of Revelation. A knowledge of the chronological development of the New Testament precludes such a supposition (pivotal dates in biblical history)”

So we see that we can understand through the Apostle Paul's words inspired by the Holy Spirit that the mention of this trumpet – (the last trump) will announce the Lord Himself descending from heaven into our atmosphere...when we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. (1st Thess. 4:17)

Why do we meet the Lord in the air and not on the earth?

The reason we are meeting the Lord in the air is because we are going away from planet earth exactly as he promised Jesus said:“ I go to prepare a place for you and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:1-3).

This should settle the matter of a rapture but, in the minds of those who reject a rapture it does not, only because they do not want it to, the RAPTURE is not a deception (as they say) but, rather it is A promise that the Lord gave, and will keep.

Where does Jesus reside? In heaven, where he said “that where I am you may be also.” This can only make sense if one understands the sequences and reason for this event.

As the Lord was brought up to the Father, in similar fashion (Acts 1:11) we the church, his body will be taken by the Son to the Father.

The trumpet sound for the rapture of the Church in 1st Thessalonians 4:16 happens in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, as Jesus comes and calls his church up to Him, transformed to be like Him. What a glorious precious promise to all who have believed.

The Lord reveals many things through the Jewish feast days, one example is:

That the First group of four feast days occur all within 50 days:

1) Passover Lev. 23:5 - 2) Unleavened Bread v:6-8

3)First Fruit 23:9-14 - 4) Pentecost 15-22


2nd group of Feasts (3) which concludes with the second coming:

1) Trumpets or Remembrance Lev. 23:23-24

2) Day of Atonement Lev. 23:25-32

3) Tabernacles Lev. 23:33-44

What is the term "the last Trump?"

It has everything to do with the Feast days that are grouped with the fall feasts. There are 7 Feast days, (rehearsals), every feast was a shadow for Israel to repeat each year until it had its fulfillment in Christ Messiah, 4 are past, 3 are future.

At the feast of trumpets the trumpet is blown a total of 100 times, divided into four different types of notes. The first is a single, long blast called Tekiah, this is a plain smooth, continuous note symbolizing joy and contentment.

The second type of sound is the Shevarim, consisting of three short blasts or broken notes…

The third is: Truah which consists of extremely short blasts comprised of nine staccato notes, this quick succession of short trills expresses trepidation and sorrow, these three types of blasts are repeated…

The fourth concludes all with a single, sustained note; called the Tekiah Gedolah, meaning “the great tekiah,” “the great blast,” or “the last trump.” (referenced from the teaching of Dr. Fruchtenbaum)

In the Greek wording 1st Cor.15: 52 reads – eschatos - sal'pinx; the last in a series of quavering or reverberation from the trumpet, it is the last note blown, the 100th note and the trumpeter holds it as long as he can.

But The last trump – in the gathering and rapture of the holy ones of the church, means the last blowing of a trumpet as in the Feast of trumpets, the followers of Christ will be changed together… "for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

This trumpet is not part of the sequence of judgments on mankind…

For those who reject a rapture or those who believe in a post tribulation rapture, to use the trumpet that announces judgment to unsaved mankind for the greatest event for the church (our being changed to immortality, without sin) is simply not justified, for this can only be the trumpet for the separate event of the rapture!

The only place one can find another trumpet (besides the judgments trumpets) related to this is in the Feast days, this all makes sense when one takes the time to study the feast days. 4 feasts have been fulfilled- 3 feasts are left, which are completed by this succession (just as the first 4 were).

First (Trumpets) is the rapture, gathering of the Saints in Christ to Christ.

Second, the Tribulation (Day of Atonement) where Israel is chastened, repents and is saved.

Third, then the Second Coming (Tabernacles), where Jesus returns to be with his people, He rescues Israel first; destroys the armies of the antichrist and the wicked, then begins the Millennial Reign of Christ.

In this succession that is fulfilled by Christ where the Feast of Trumpets historically precedes the Day of Atonement; the Rapture will precede the GREAT Tribulation.

The next feast after this is the Day of Atonement which represents peace made with God, reconciliation, where Israel repents near the end of the Tribulation before His return.

The last fall Feast is Tabernacles “God is with us on earth”.
The return of Jesus on earth begins the kingdom.
The Messiah is ruling over the nations, the Old and New Testament saints are united and serving in His kingdom.[/quote]

You reason like a Democrat. The 7th trumpet is the last trump. "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

After the lst resurrection which is accompanied with the rapture, seven angels will pour out their bowls of wrath upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Reply
 
 
Jan 27, 2020 16:16:20   #
Mr. Rogers
 
The 7th trumpet is the last trump. "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

After the lst resurrection which is accompanied with the rapture, seven angels will pour out their bowls of wrath upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Reply
Jan 27, 2020 21:53:21   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Isaiah 1:18 ►
"Come now, and let us reason together, said the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."


Back at the beginning of this topic located in Faith, Religion and Spirituality -
Topic Title: Amillenniallism vs premillienalism

Topic Originator:
Fodaoson wrote:
"Posters keep posting about the last days. There are three dominant interpretations of the last days. Amillennialism, premillennialism, post millennialism. thoughts"



After watching this topic remain with no posts for several days, I posted conventional definitions of the terms utilized in the Topic Name...

then proceeded to post my own understanding with substantiating Scriptures, as well as scholarly online defenses of one or another of the Schools of Thought.

Having just received as a response to my last post,

Mr. Rogers wrote:
"You reason like a Democrat." ...etc., etc., etc., ...


(which stereotypically denies the precious individuality with which every human being is endowed at birth)

followed by a reiteration of the same repetitious (recycled) unsustainable arguments, which I had already Biblically refuted;

although, I enjoy, in all humility and meekness, communicating with my fellow seekers and believers, the ecstatic worshiper and the stoic recluse, the unwashed and illiterate, the educated and fashionable, the congenial and the hermit, wherever encountered,

the selectively ignorant, peculiarly unreasoning, and painstakingly illogical, not so much.

In full recognition, in Christian love, of God's gift of free will to each of us, I shake the dust from my feet, and wash from my hands the time and effort expended.

Reply
Jan 28, 2020 09:21:07   #
Rose42
 
Zemirah wrote:
Isaiah 1:18 ►
"Come now, and let us reason together, said the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."


Back at the beginning of this topic located in Faith, Religion and Spirituality -
Topic Title: Amillenniallism vs premillienalism

Topic Originator:

(which stereotypically denies the precious individuality with which every human being is endowed at birth)

followed by a reiteration of the same repetitious (recycled) unsustainable arguments, which I had already Biblically refuted;

although, I enjoy, in all humility and meekness, communicating with my fellow seekers and believers, the ecstatic worshiper and the stoic recluse, the unwashed and illiterate, the educated and fashionable, the congenial and the hermit, wherever encountered,

the selectively ignorant, peculiarly unreasoning, and painstakingly illogical, not so much.

In full recognition, in Christian love, of God's gift of free will to each of us, I shake the dust from my feet, and wash from my hands the time and effort expended.
Isaiah 1:18 ► br "Come now, and let us reason... (show quote)


Though I did not comment on this thread I appreciate your contribution.

Reply
Jan 28, 2020 09:31:12   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
Isaiah 1:18 ►
"Come now, and let us reason together, said the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."


Back at the beginning of this topic located in Faith, Religion and Spirituality -
Topic Title: Amillenniallism vs premillienalism

Topic Originator:

(which stereotypically denies the precious individuality with which every human being is endowed at birth)

followed by a reiteration of the same repetitious (recycled) unsustainable arguments, which I had already Biblically refuted;

although, I enjoy, in all humility and meekness, communicating with my fellow seekers and believers, the ecstatic worshiper and the stoic recluse, the unwashed and illiterate, the educated and fashionable, the congenial and the hermit, wherever encountered,

the selectively ignorant, peculiarly unreasoning, and painstakingly illogical, not so much.

In full recognition, in Christian love, of God's gift of free will to each of us, I shake the dust from my feet, and wash from my hands the time and effort expended.
Isaiah 1:18 ► br "Come now, and let us reason... (show quote)


Not a great ending to a most excellent discussion...

Reply
 
 
Jan 28, 2020 12:02:56   #
Mr. Rogers
 
Zemirah wrote:
Regarding Romans 2:29...

what will follow after death; which is called judgment to come, is represented as certain, will be universal as to persons and things, and is here called "the judgment of God", in opposition to the judgment of men; because it will be carried on by God only, who is omniscient and omnipotent, and will be definitive: this is and will be, according to truth, in opposition to all hypocrisy and unrighteousness: by which all have enjoyed the Gospel revelation, will be judged; or the truth of their own consciences in them all: now we may be sure of this judgment; and of its being according to truth, from reason, from Scripture, and from the being and perfections of God. (Gill Commentary)

It is written to those within the church; placed in context:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

…26 "If a man who is not circumcised keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 The one who is physically uncircumcised yet keeps the Law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical.…
29 No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God."

Cross References:

John 5:44
How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 12:43
For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
Regarding Romans 2:29... br br what will follow ... (show quote)


The writing on the plaque above the head of Jesus on the cross identified him as the King of the Jews. Do you identify with this statement?

Reply
Jan 28, 2020 12:09:28   #
Mr. Rogers
 
Zemirah wrote:
Isaiah 1:18 ►
"Come now, and let us reason together, said the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."


Back at the beginning of this topic located in Faith, Religion and Spirituality -
Topic Title: Amillenniallism vs premillienalism

Topic Originator:

(which stereotypically denies the precious individuality with which every human being is endowed at birth)

followed by a reiteration of the same repetitious (recycled) unsustainable arguments, which I had already Biblically refuted;

although, I enjoy, in all humility and meekness, communicating with my fellow seekers and believers, the ecstatic worshiper and the stoic recluse, the unwashed and illiterate, the educated and fashionable, the congenial and the hermit, wherever encountered,

the selectively ignorant, peculiarly unreasoning, and painstakingly illogical, not so much.

In full recognition, in Christian love, of God's gift of free will to each of us, I shake the dust from my feet, and wash from my hands the time and effort expended.
Isaiah 1:18 ► br "Come now, and let us reason... (show quote)


My quotes are from the bible. Your argument is not with me. It is with the word of God and the God who proclaimed it.

Reply
Jan 28, 2020 12:19:10   #
Mr. Rogers
 
The rapture occurs at the last trump which is after the 144,000 are sealed and the two witnesses are killed (see Revelations 11: 14, 15 above). And after the mark of the beast and after Satan is bound for 1,000 years.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Reply
Jan 28, 2020 15:17:38   #
Mr. Rogers
 
Mr. Rogers wrote:
The rapture occurs at the last trump which is after the 144,000 are sealed and the two witnesses are killed (see Revelations 11: 14, 15 above). And after the mark of the beast and after Satan is initially bound for 1,000 years.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The rapture occurs at the last trump which is afte... (show quote)

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