IS THE TRINITY PAGAN ?
Nov 11, 2019 14:23:55 #
IS THE TRINITY PAGAN ?
Many have adopted this accusation as the main complaint of hindrance to believing in evangelical Christianity. There is no other concept of God attacked more than this subject. There are many things about God that are not understood immediately; this is also true of predestination.
I’ve heard it said "people don’t join the Evangelical church because they can’t understand the teaching on the Trinity". This is just one of many straw man arguments.
People do not come to Christ because they don’t understand the numerous doctrines. They refuse to because they cannot admit they are sinful and are in need of help outside themselves. Turning over their control to God is an act of faith.
Instead faith is substituted with the carnal mind wanting to understand something from strictly a human perspective. If I can't fully understand it I will not believe, but this is only an excuse. As Jesus stated in Jn.3:19-21" Men love darkness rather than light, they don't come to Christ because their deeds will be exposed".
Both Jews and Muslim's emphatically deny that God has a Son, if one is going to find a doctrine offensive to them, I think this would be it. No one preaches the Trinity in salvation but what is preached is that Jesus is the Son of God, he is Lord. We learn about the nature of God and other basic doctrines as we grow in the faith, not before. The simple reason is we need the Holy Spirit to be our teacher in the deeper things of God.
Is the Trinity pagan? The pagan religions had what we call trinities however on closer examination they are not the same in concept or substance. In the same way we would not agree with all the other religions that have a strict monotheistic view of God to be embraced as the same God of the Bible. (Islam, Bahai)
The pagan concept was encapsulated with a Father, Mother, giving birth to a Son. They were three major Gods with many minor god's as well. Their trinity was comprised of three Gods not one. The Greek triad of Zeus, Athena, and Apollo, the Hindu triad of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva the Egyptian triad of Isis, Horus, and Sub bear no resemblance to the Biblical Trinity.
They were all separate not united as the one God and almost unanimously had a mother involved as in a heavenly family. This was really tritheism, which has more in common with Mormonism than a triune God.
Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.
Where did the pagans get a concept of three ? Why not two or four ? Where did they get the idea of a God in heaven? What about their belief in a virgin and a son, from where did that originate?
Romans 1:20-25 tells us that man from the beginning knew God."... 'and their foolish hearts were darkened" vs.25 "they exchanged the truth for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator." When mankind fell into darkness of sin, they still retained some elements of the truth but distorted its meaning and it became lost.
As Walter Martin wrote "In order to find out if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, we do not look to see if it resembles paganism, but to the bible, to see if God teaches it in his word.
Pagans also believe in the concept of God. does this mean that God must not be true? Pagans sleep. Does that mean sleeping is wrong ? We must not dismiss an idea merely because it is held in common with those whom we may not approve." (the New Cults p.49) Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points.
Alexander Hislop, in his book, "the two Babylon's", traces the history of the practices and traditions of the Roman Catholic church. He writes on pg. 18, "All these forms have existed from ancient times, while overcome with idolatry, the recognition of the Trinity was universal, proving how deep rooted in the human race was the doctrine on the subject , which comes out so distinctly in Genesis"
Robert Watts in New Apologetic says "The Pagan triads are "residuary fragments of their lost knowledge of God, not different stages in a process of evolution. But evidence of a moral and spiritual degradation" (Augustus H. Strongs systematic Theology p.352)
While there are Pagan Trinities which can be traced back to Babylon, instead of supporting anti Trinitarian views such as the Watchtower literature promotes, it is evidence for the tri-une God. Let us not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, let us go to the Scripture to prove our major points.
Hislop writes that many pagan religions held to one infinite God the creator. Strict monotheism is found in Islam and a few other religions. Are we now to accept their view because God is called one (singular)?
If we are to reject the concept of the triune God, a unified one, because of the pagan distortions, then we must reject much more than this. The pagan cultures also had a virgin birth and some even had a resurrection, Tammuz died and raised 40 days later. The pagan religions had a priesthood and sacrifices, this too became distorted with human sacrifices for Gods blessings. Some Pagans believed that certain gods became men.
They had Biblical symbology such as a dove, the lamb, altars, there are many religions that have distortions of the Bible's account of the flood. Are we now to reject Genesis because of their misrepresentations?
They also practiced tongues- ecstatic babble. All of these are counterfeits and distortions of truth, yet we are told since they have a counterfeit Trinity, we are to reject the Biblical Trinity on the same grounds. If you are going to do that, then you must reject all of it on the basis of it being found in some form in ancient paganism. You then annihilate the doctrine of Christ as the God/man, virgin birth, his sacrifice etc.
All these are proof of what Paul explained of what happened in history in Romans one, that mankind had a true knowledge but refused to worship Him and sank into idolatry.
The God of the Bible is unique. He is tri-une, which is neither polytheistic nor is it tri-theistic. God is one in nature and is composed of three distinct eternal persons. They are one in substance with a difference in position. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. This is the simple description of the God of the Bible. There is one choice from the Bibles revelation, if one denies the tri-une God, they are either left with atheism or polytheism.
Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics
Mike Oppenheimer
Many have adopted this accusation as the main complaint of hindrance to believing in evangelical Christianity. There is no other concept of God attacked more than this subject. There are many things about God that are not understood immediately; this is also true of predestination.
I’ve heard it said "people don’t join the Evangelical church because they can’t understand the teaching on the Trinity". This is just one of many straw man arguments.
People do not come to Christ because they don’t understand the numerous doctrines. They refuse to because they cannot admit they are sinful and are in need of help outside themselves. Turning over their control to God is an act of faith.
Instead faith is substituted with the carnal mind wanting to understand something from strictly a human perspective. If I can't fully understand it I will not believe, but this is only an excuse. As Jesus stated in Jn.3:19-21" Men love darkness rather than light, they don't come to Christ because their deeds will be exposed".
Both Jews and Muslim's emphatically deny that God has a Son, if one is going to find a doctrine offensive to them, I think this would be it. No one preaches the Trinity in salvation but what is preached is that Jesus is the Son of God, he is Lord. We learn about the nature of God and other basic doctrines as we grow in the faith, not before. The simple reason is we need the Holy Spirit to be our teacher in the deeper things of God.
Is the Trinity pagan? The pagan religions had what we call trinities however on closer examination they are not the same in concept or substance. In the same way we would not agree with all the other religions that have a strict monotheistic view of God to be embraced as the same God of the Bible. (Islam, Bahai)
The pagan concept was encapsulated with a Father, Mother, giving birth to a Son. They were three major Gods with many minor god's as well. Their trinity was comprised of three Gods not one. The Greek triad of Zeus, Athena, and Apollo, the Hindu triad of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva the Egyptian triad of Isis, Horus, and Sub bear no resemblance to the Biblical Trinity.
They were all separate not united as the one God and almost unanimously had a mother involved as in a heavenly family. This was really tritheism, which has more in common with Mormonism than a triune God.
Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.
Where did the pagans get a concept of three ? Why not two or four ? Where did they get the idea of a God in heaven? What about their belief in a virgin and a son, from where did that originate?
Romans 1:20-25 tells us that man from the beginning knew God."... 'and their foolish hearts were darkened" vs.25 "they exchanged the truth for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator." When mankind fell into darkness of sin, they still retained some elements of the truth but distorted its meaning and it became lost.
As Walter Martin wrote "In order to find out if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, we do not look to see if it resembles paganism, but to the bible, to see if God teaches it in his word.
Pagans also believe in the concept of God. does this mean that God must not be true? Pagans sleep. Does that mean sleeping is wrong ? We must not dismiss an idea merely because it is held in common with those whom we may not approve." (the New Cults p.49) Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points.
Alexander Hislop, in his book, "the two Babylon's", traces the history of the practices and traditions of the Roman Catholic church. He writes on pg. 18, "All these forms have existed from ancient times, while overcome with idolatry, the recognition of the Trinity was universal, proving how deep rooted in the human race was the doctrine on the subject , which comes out so distinctly in Genesis"
Robert Watts in New Apologetic says "The Pagan triads are "residuary fragments of their lost knowledge of God, not different stages in a process of evolution. But evidence of a moral and spiritual degradation" (Augustus H. Strongs systematic Theology p.352)
While there are Pagan Trinities which can be traced back to Babylon, instead of supporting anti Trinitarian views such as the Watchtower literature promotes, it is evidence for the tri-une God. Let us not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, let us go to the Scripture to prove our major points.
Hislop writes that many pagan religions held to one infinite God the creator. Strict monotheism is found in Islam and a few other religions. Are we now to accept their view because God is called one (singular)?
If we are to reject the concept of the triune God, a unified one, because of the pagan distortions, then we must reject much more than this. The pagan cultures also had a virgin birth and some even had a resurrection, Tammuz died and raised 40 days later. The pagan religions had a priesthood and sacrifices, this too became distorted with human sacrifices for Gods blessings. Some Pagans believed that certain gods became men.
They had Biblical symbology such as a dove, the lamb, altars, there are many religions that have distortions of the Bible's account of the flood. Are we now to reject Genesis because of their misrepresentations?
They also practiced tongues- ecstatic babble. All of these are counterfeits and distortions of truth, yet we are told since they have a counterfeit Trinity, we are to reject the Biblical Trinity on the same grounds. If you are going to do that, then you must reject all of it on the basis of it being found in some form in ancient paganism. You then annihilate the doctrine of Christ as the God/man, virgin birth, his sacrifice etc.
All these are proof of what Paul explained of what happened in history in Romans one, that mankind had a true knowledge but refused to worship Him and sank into idolatry.
The God of the Bible is unique. He is tri-une, which is neither polytheistic nor is it tri-theistic. God is one in nature and is composed of three distinct eternal persons. They are one in substance with a difference in position. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. This is the simple description of the God of the Bible. There is one choice from the Bibles revelation, if one denies the tri-une God, they are either left with atheism or polytheism.
Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics
Mike Oppenheimer
Nov 11, 2019 14:40:11 #
Zemirah wrote:
IS THE TRINITY PAGAN ? br br Many have adopted t... (show quote)
Amen and Amen very good there Zemirah thanks for this on the tri-une God of the bible.
Nov 11, 2019 14:51:25 #
Zemirah wrote:
IS THE TRINITY PAGAN ? br br Many have adopted t... (show quote)
We live in interesting times that's for sure. Great article.
False doctrine makes Christians immature, ignorant and spiritually unhealthy - such as denying the trinity or believing works is part of salvation. False doctrine is inconsistent with some parts of scripture. False doctrine has its authority outside the bible - such the "with one voice" topic claim which is yet another false claim.
Edited to add - If one can't identify anything they hear as a false teaching then that is a very bad sign. It means they are succumbing to it to a certain degree.
Nov 11, 2019 19:10:08 #
Zemirah wrote:
IS THE TRINITY PAGAN ? br br Many have adopted t... (show quote)
Thanks...
I usually look to Oldsailor or the three stooges (Slatten, Bahmer and Badbobby) for my morning chuckles...
But this was hilarious...
I love the way the author claims that trithesism in pagan religions is an offshoot of the true nature of God...While completely ignoring that this Triune nature was never revealed to the Jews.. God's chosen people... Who He had a covenant with...
He probably figured they would infer it from all the hints He dropped over thousands of years...
Or perhaps He revealed it to Moses and Moses just misremember it... Or had trouble with the spelling of Triune...
I can just see Abraham now...
A: "Should I mention the Trinity?"
G: "No need...It's pretty obvious."
A: "Is it though?"
G: "Absolutely... Adam got it."
A: "Are we really looking to Adam as an example of understanding difficult concepts?"
G:"He made one mistake...Get off his back."
A:"Perhaps if you hadn't created woman, things would be different."
G:"Tell me about it... "
A: "So how come you don't have a female aspect? Wouldn't that be more consistent with the way you set things up?"
G: "Did I not just admit that woman was a mistake?!"
A:"Ok... Backing off...Wanna go start a pagan religion?"
G:" Sure... It'll be a couple thousand years before it matters anyways."
Nov 11, 2019 19:27:08 #
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Thanks... br br I usually look to Oldsailor or th... (show quote)
Have you ever heard of a term Paul used many times called "a mystery?" If you have do you know what it is?
The way you mock and ridicule is not very Christ-like of you either. I don't recall Jesus mocking and ridiculing anyone.
Nov 11, 2019 19:45:31 #
Jesus said to them,
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:35-37)
The key words in this passage are “idle” and “account.” The first word “idle” comes from the root Greek word ARGOS. It means “not busy, idle, inactive, doing nothing, and sterile.” When we apply it as Jesus did here in Matthew 12:36, it has the idea of careless or empty words.
Our second word “account” comes from the Greek word APODIOMI which means to “give an answer.” Jesus is saying that everyone will have to give God an answer for even their casual comments.
You will have a difficult time when God asks you to justify every word here spoken.
God will not be interested in a wonderful presentation of the best parts of your life story. God will be examining the details of your life – words, actions, and thoughts.
God will be helping each non-Christian understand why he or she is going to hell.
But Christians will not be judged for there is no condemnation for those who belong to Jesus.
(Romans 8:1).
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:35-37)
The key words in this passage are “idle” and “account.” The first word “idle” comes from the root Greek word ARGOS. It means “not busy, idle, inactive, doing nothing, and sterile.” When we apply it as Jesus did here in Matthew 12:36, it has the idea of careless or empty words.
Our second word “account” comes from the Greek word APODIOMI which means to “give an answer.” Jesus is saying that everyone will have to give God an answer for even their casual comments.
You will have a difficult time when God asks you to justify every word here spoken.
God will not be interested in a wonderful presentation of the best parts of your life story. God will be examining the details of your life – words, actions, and thoughts.
God will be helping each non-Christian understand why he or she is going to hell.
But Christians will not be judged for there is no condemnation for those who belong to Jesus.
(Romans 8:1).
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Thanks... br br I usually look to Oldsailor or th... (show quote)
Nov 11, 2019 19:52:58 #
Zemirah wrote:
Jesus said to them, br br "A good man out of... (show quote)
Zemirah...I'm getttng to the point where I'm almost ready to heed Jesus' words to not throw your pearls before swine because all they do is trample them under their feet and turn on you.
Nov 11, 2019 19:53:49 #
Followers of Saul Alinsky and Islam constantly spread lies, fear and ridicule of the perceived enemy.
Much has been said about Saul Alinsky, but no one noticed the similarities between his ‘”rules for radicals” and Islamic values and law (Sharia).
Alinsky’s rules were written to Western radicals and that is why his rules, which encourage revolution and deception, never went as far as the radicalism in Islamic law. The two ideologies, however, are ‘kindred spirits’ with similar tactics and goals regarding how society should interact, be structured and be divided.
Both Saul Alinsky and Sharia law demonize those who disagree with them, and use ridicule as a tactic.
Arab culture is known for its use of ridicule, pride and shame as tools of control at all levels, from child rearing to the highest office in the land.
Much has been said about Saul Alinsky, but no one noticed the similarities between his ‘”rules for radicals” and Islamic values and law (Sharia).
Alinsky’s rules were written to Western radicals and that is why his rules, which encourage revolution and deception, never went as far as the radicalism in Islamic law. The two ideologies, however, are ‘kindred spirits’ with similar tactics and goals regarding how society should interact, be structured and be divided.
Both Saul Alinsky and Sharia law demonize those who disagree with them, and use ridicule as a tactic.
Arab culture is known for its use of ridicule, pride and shame as tools of control at all levels, from child rearing to the highest office in the land.
Parky60 wrote:
Have you ever heard of a term Paul used many times called "a mystery?" If you have do you know what it is?
The way you mock and ridicule is not very Christ-like of you either. I don't recall Jesus mocking and ridiculing anyone.
The way you mock and ridicule is not very Christ-like of you either. I don't recall Jesus mocking and ridiculing anyone.
Nov 11, 2019 20:02:37 #
Parky, Your words are important to scores of people who read but do not post.
You are fighting the good fight.
I'm impervious to insults...
Consider the source.
Never has the poster of these insults mocking God and His Word appeared so small, immature and petty.
You are fighting the good fight.
I'm impervious to insults...
Consider the source.
Never has the poster of these insults mocking God and His Word appeared so small, immature and petty.
Parky60 wrote:
Zemirah...I'm getttng to the point where I'm almost ready to heed Jesus' words to not throw your pearls before swine because all they do is trample them under their feet and turn on you.
Nov 11, 2019 20:20:55 #
Zemirah wrote:
Followers of Saul Alinsky and Islam constantly spr... (show quote)
States the individual who ridicules any who disagree with her...
Nov 11, 2019 20:21:25 #
Zemirah wrote:
Parky, Your words are important to scores of people who read but do not post.
You are fighting the good fight.
I'm impervious to insults...
Consider the source.
Never has the poster of these insults mocking God and His Word appeared so small, immature and petty.
You are fighting the good fight.
I'm impervious to insults...
Consider the source.
Never has the poster of these insults mocking God and His Word appeared so small, immature and petty.
Nobody mocked God...
Don't be absurd...
Nov 11, 2019 20:22:00 #
Zemirah wrote:
Jesus said to them, br br "A good man out of... (show quote)
Always good to know...
Gonna be a long talk for a lot f us
Nov 11, 2019 20:24:13 #
Parky60 wrote:
Have you ever heard of a term Paul used many times called "a mystery?" If you have do you know what it is?
The way you mock and ridicule is not very Christ-like of you either. I don't recall Jesus mocking and ridiculing anyone.
The way you mock and ridicule is not very Christ-like of you either. I don't recall Jesus mocking and ridiculing anyone.
Who have I mocked or ridiculed?
The author? Hardly... Just pointed out a flaw in his reasoning...
I am not Christ-like... Have never claimed to be... Just one more sinner...
The joke at the end was a joke.. Jokes are numerous...Not mocking or ridiculing...
Nov 11, 2019 20:46:45 #
Zemirah wrote:
Parky, Your words are important to scores of people who read but do not post.
You are fighting the good fight.
I'm impervious to insults...
Consider the source.
Never has the poster of these insults mocking God and His Word appeared so small, immature and petty.
You are fighting the good fight.
I'm impervious to insults...
Consider the source.
Never has the poster of these insults mocking God and His Word appeared so small, immature and petty.
I agree Parky. Your posts are important. If you can help even one person see the truth its worth it.
Nov 11, 2019 21:25:20 #
Parky60 wrote:
Zemirah...I'm getttng to the point where I'm almost ready to heed Jesus' words to not throw your pearls before swine because all they do is trample them under their feet and turn on you.
Hi Parky...
Just saw this...
I would like to add my support to Zemirah and Rose's... You're words are important... And do provoke thought, even if only to find opposition to them...
Check the views for any given thread and you will see that there are far more views than posts... Others are reading and thinking...
I have no doubts as to the sincerity of your beliefs... And value your friendship...
We all rub against each other at times... But we can still love one another and share in respect (or try to
) of each other's understandings...I've had my run-ins with both Rose and Zemirah... But I still appreciate their beliefs and the trouble they go to to clarify them for me and others...
Stay strong and play hard brother...
God bless...
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