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Nov 9, 2019 18:00:03   #
Rose42
 
JediKnight wrote:
Very well said Rose! "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was with God..." John 1:1


We agree on what’s far more important than politics.

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Nov 9, 2019 18:19:12   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Rose42 wrote:
Throughout history there have always been heretics who reject God’s triune nature, just as there have always been heretics that reject Christ’s divinity or heretics that believe works will save you among other things.


Why not just say heretics that believe anything you don't?

Quote:
Whether or not they were or are Christians will be known on judgement day.


Exactly...

Quote:
Some rely on man for their theology - such as the trinity deniers - and others rely on God’s word. God’s word trumps man’s every time.


Funny how a certain Trinity denier can show where the Trinity came from (man)...And then use the Bible (God) to refute it...

Agreed.. God's word trumps man's

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Nov 9, 2019 18:20:27   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
TexaCan wrote:
I must agree with you on one of your statements completely! “To liberals, we are always going to move forward and seldom is it going to be neat and tidy but generally messy and unseemly.” FDR would be proud....practice has been successful and very profitable! Have you ever had someone describe in detail of an a******n by someone who witnessed it firsthand? Many many years ago when my niece was going to school to get her LVN Nursing License, she watched an a******n at an a******n clinic! She was in her 20’s and was very liberal. At the time she was supportive of a woman’s right to abort her baby! When she came home and described the sick, evil, slaughtering, torturing murder of that baby, she sobbed while in the arms of her Mother! My niece is a person who hides her emotions and never cries in front of people. Nurses don’t have a tendency to be Drama Queens! This ‘vision’ changed her understanding of what a fetus is.......it’s a real live baby that is murdered in an a******n! Every person that supports a******n should have to watch one UP close and Personal! IMHO It would change the minds of many people, especially women!

For anyone, whether they are conservatives or Christians or Liberals or Atheists, to consider the dismemberment of a baby and pulling them out of the miracle safe secure nurturing place that God provided them with from the time of conception to birth, and then sorting through those little parts to pick out those that can be sold for MONEY, “moving forward and a successful accomplishment”.....................how can anyone of you look at your own babies and imagine the Mother making that fateful decision to end your baby’s life? How many Mothers and Dads have missed the blessing of a lifetime of watching and loving and living the miracles and the beautiful wonders of this life through the eyes of their children and grandchildren!

I realize that the timing of some pregnancies are to the point of being impossible, but there are enough people that are unable to have children or just want and choose to adopt babies because the Lord put the need to add to their own family through adoption! I believe that all babies are a blessing and have a place and a purpose in this world.

Let’s turn the clock backwards and stop this senseless murder of the greatest of all blessings! The blessings of our Lord and Savior for our country would be unimaginable if we could accomplish this! IMHO!

MARANATHA
I must agree with you on one of your statements co... (show quote)


Good post

And I agree

Amen....

Reply
 
 
Nov 9, 2019 18:21:46   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
JediKnight wrote:
Peter S: I want to applaud and thank you for taking the time to express your viewpoint on Liberals and Conservatives. You wrote clearly and succinctly in a way that is hard to refute. I have often tried to relay the very sentiment you express -but admit that I usually fall miserably short.

The only point I would add would be this: due to the ingrained thought process of Conservatives (especially those who long to ("keep America great") lies a conscious commitment to the old ideology that has plagued this nation for long and restrained us from fulfilling all the promises within the Constitution envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

As much as I dislike the idea, I am convinced that there are simply (still) many here in our country who refuse to let go of the h**e, r****m, and discrimination that taints us in favor of their ideal of superiority. Therefore, I am afraid we will always have a certain number of those thinkers among us. It appears that currently a majority of those thinkers hide in the shadows of the republican party. Thank you for sharing....keep the faith!
Peter S: I want to applaud and thank you for takin... (show quote)


I dunno...

Pretty sure the Democrats have their share of shadow-lurkers as well

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Nov 9, 2019 19:11:29   #
Rose42
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Why not just say heretics that believe anything you don't?


Because its not about me. Christians don’t deny the trinity. At first they may but not when they mature.

Quote:
Funny how a certain Trinity denier can show where the Trinity came from (man)...And then use the Bible (God) to refute it...


Its not funny you think he has because he hasn’t. He goes nowhere and other Christians know it.

And its not funny he and you think you have a special insight that somehow so many Christian scholars have missed over hundreds of years. And its not funny that he and you also support other false doctrine that has been refuted biblically.

Quote:
Agreed.. God's word trumps man's


A lot of non believers and false teachers are good talkers and can quote a lot of scripture. But head knowledge is not heart knowledge and one can know the bible very well and still not be saved.

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Nov 9, 2019 19:31:33   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
A lot of non believers and false teachers are good talkers and can quote a lot of scripture. But head knowledge is not heart knowledge and one can know the bible very well and still not be saved.


The Christian masses believe in the trinity (but not all), most scholars do not. No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”

In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages:

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.

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Nov 9, 2019 19:42:54   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
PeterS wrote:
Blade, you once told me that Conservatism wasn't an ideology. That tells me right there that you don't know the first thing about our political ideologies or why we have them. And you have experts? Where are they? I gave you a link to a book that first came out in the Seventies and has been through 12 revisions. I doubt if there is a college in this country, liberal or conservative, where it hasn't been taught at one point or another.

Your problem is that you can't accept who you are. You think I am denigrating you when I say you are regressive and seeking Status-quo. I'm not, those are simply the principle characteristics that cause Conservatism to be what it is. You are traditionalists yes or no? Well, that is both regressive and seeking status quo. You adhere to fundamental religion yes or now? Well, that is regressive and seeking status quo. And the list goes on but it all comes down to your endeavor to move back to some point in time you perceive to be better or you cling doggedly to where you are now.

You, on the other hand, tried to denigrate me with your comments on Marx and C*******m. Well, I know about Marx and I know about C*******m and I also know that a Liberal Progressive seldom, IF EVER, moves backward to past endeavors successful or failures. We are PROGRESSIVE, we do not move backward.

Your fear is your belief that we are on a slippery slope but instead, we are on a continuation of the path that we already on. We have employed a mixed economy (capitalism and socialism) since the thirties. And there would be no reason to change if capitalism was delivering on its end. But it isn't, so healthcare and education are going to become more socialized.

If this has you Lemmings wanting to jump off the cliff I can't help you there but the world conservatives seem to think is coming to an end is, for us liberals, just another day.
Blade, you once told me that Conservatism wasn't a... (show quote)
First, let me assure you I know who I am and I thank God every day for that.

Conservatism, I repeat, is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics. It does not try to excite the enthusiasm of a secular religion. If you want men who will sacrifice their past and present and future to a set of abstract ideas, you must go to C*******m, or F*****m, or Benthamism. But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in the wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles. The conservative believes in Principle, or enduring values ascertained through appreciation of the wisdom of dead generations, the study of history, and the reconciliation of authority with the altered circumstances of our present life. He is a highly reasonable person, although he looks with deep suspicion on the cult of Reason––the worship of an abstract rationality which asserts that mundane planning is able to solve all our difficulties of spirit and community. But the conservative detests Abstraction, or the passion for forcing men and societies into a preconceived pattern divorced from the special circumstances of different times and countries.

What is Conservatism?

Liberals tend to look only at the material side of man’s nature, conservatism looks upon the enhancement of man’s spiritual nature as the primary concern of political philosophy.

Conservatism is a philosophy, not an ideology. It is the collective wisdom of conservatives such as Evans, Kirk, Goldwater, Buckley, and Abraham Lincoln, who when asked what conservatism is replied, “Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?” Conservatism stands on the solid rock of the American Founding and Western civilization. Its overriding principle is “ordered liberty.”

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Nov 9, 2019 19:53:14   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Rose42 wrote:
A lot of non believers and false teachers are good talkers and can quote a lot of scripture. But head knowledge is not heart knowledge and one can know the bible very well and still not be saved.


What other false doctrines do Tommy and I support?

I have never claimed to have any special knowledge of the Bible....False accusation...

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Nov 9, 2019 19:55:04   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
rumitoid wrote:
The Christian masses believe in the trinity, most scholars do not. No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”

In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages:

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.
The Christian masses believe in the trinity, most ... (show quote)


Good post Rumi...

It can be difficult to view something impartially after a lifetime of bias...

Bet you're trip to understanding was a heck of a ride

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Nov 9, 2019 19:56:51   #
rumitoid
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Good post Rumi...

It can be difficult to view something impartially after a lifetime of bias...

Bet you're trip to understanding was a heck of a ride


Thank you.

Reply
Nov 9, 2019 20:07:56   #
Parky60 Loc: People's Republic of Illinois
 
rumitoid wrote:
The Christian masses believe in the trinity, most scholars do not. No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”

In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages:

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.
The Christian masses believe in the trinity, most ... (show quote)

The quotes you gave do NOT prove that God is not triune.

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

https://youtu.be/yj0mE78SuWA

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Nov 9, 2019 20:27:45   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
rumitoid wrote:
The Christian masses believe in the trinity, most scholars do not. No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



Many Christian denominations teach that God is a Trinity. However, note what the Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”

In fact, the God of the Bible is never described as being part of a Trinity. Note these Bible passages:

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.
The Christian masses believe in the trinity, most ... (show quote)
The statement that "most scholars do not" believe in the trinity is not only false, it is an argumentum ad populum with no evidence to support it.

Religion is man's path upon which he seeks God. The Christian faith is God seeking man. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . .The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and t***h.

God came to us in person to establish a personal relationship with us and to forgive us for we know not what we do.

The Bible emphatically and unambiguously declares that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:8; Isaiah 45:18; Deuteronomy 6:4; Malachi 2:10, James 2:19; Mark 12:29 ). Hence, taking all the Scriptures into account, orthodox Christian theology has always affirmed that the one true God is triune in nature—three co-equal and co-eternal persons in the Godhead.

Orthodox Christian theology has always affirmed that the one true God is triune in nature.

This triune God (or Trinity) began to allude to this aspect of His nature right in Genesis 1:26–27. There we read that “God said, ‘Let us make man in our image’ . . . God created man in His image.” Here God is a plural noun, said is in the third-person singular verb form, and we see both the plural pronoun our and the singular His referring to the same thing (God’s image). This is not horribly confused grammar. Rather, we are being taught, in a limited way, that God is a plurality in unity. We can’t say from this verse that He is a trinity, but God progressively reveals more about Himself in later Scriptures to bring us to that conclusion.

In Isaiah 48:12–16 we find the speaker in the passage describing himself as the Creator and yet saying that “the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.” This is further hinting at the doctrine of the trinity, which becomes very clear in the New Testament. There are many other Old Testament Scriptures that hint at the same idea.

In Matthew 28:18–20 Jesus command His disciples to baptize His followers in the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. John’s Gospel tells us that “the Word” is God who became man in Jesus Christ (John 1:1–3, 14). Jesus was fully man and fully God. Many other verses combine together to teach that God is triune. Answers in Genesis

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Nov 9, 2019 20:33:20   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
The statement that "most scholars do not" believe in the trinity is not only false, it is an argumentum ad populum with no evidence to support it.

Religion is man's path upon which he seeks God. The Christian faith is God seeking man. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . .The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and t***h.

God came to us in person to establish a personal relationship with us and to forgive us for we know not what we do.

The Bible emphatically and unambiguously declares that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:8; Isaiah 45:18; Deuteronomy 6:4; Malachi 2:10, James 2:19; Mark 12:29 ). Hence, taking all the Scriptures into account, orthodox Christian theology has always affirmed that the one true God is triune in nature—three co-equal and co-eternal persons in the Godhead.

Orthodox Christian theology has always affirmed that the one true God is triune in nature.

This triune God (or Trinity) began to allude to this aspect of His nature right in Genesis 1:26–27. There we read that “God said, ‘Let us make man in our image’ . . . God created man in His image.” Here God is a plural noun, said is in the third-person singular verb form, and we see both the plural pronoun our and the singular His referring to the same thing (God’s image). This is not horribly confused grammar. Rather, we are being taught, in a limited way, that God is a plurality in unity. We can’t say from this verse that He is a trinity, but God progressively reveals more about Himself in later Scriptures to bring us to that conclusion.

In Isaiah 48:12–16 we find the speaker in the passage describing himself as the Creator and yet saying that “the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.” This is further hinting at the doctrine of the trinity, which becomes very clear in the New Testament. There are many other Old Testament Scriptures that hint at the same idea.

In Matthew 28:18–20 Jesus command His disciples to baptize His followers in the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. John’s Gospel tells us that “the Word” is God who became man in Jesus Christ (John 1:1–3, 14). Jesus was fully man and fully God. Many other verses combine together to teach that God is triune. Answers in Genesis
The statement that "most scholars do not"... (show quote)


Funny how you jump on Rumi for using "argumentum ad populum" but not Rose...

Suppose it's ok to use logic fallacies if they support one's position...

There are far more OT passages that in no way "hint" that God is absolutely and singularly One....

Reply
Nov 9, 2019 21:00:11   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Funny how you jump on Rumi for using "argumentum ad populum" but not Rose...

Suppose it's ok to use logic fallacies if they support one's position...

There are far more OT passages that in no way "hint" that God is absolutely and singularly One....
So, you ignored the link. Try again and scroll down to the chart.

Reply
Nov 9, 2019 21:28:14   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
So, you ignored the link. Try again and scroll down to the chart.


I didn't ignore your link...

The chart reads from a Trinitarian interpretation of scripture...

Take the first example given for the Holy Spirit...

Genesis 1:2
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

So in the Trinitarian view...God is up high (somewhere) creating everything (with Jesus I suppose) and the Holy Spirit is getting in a little surfing? (sorry for how flippant this sounds..)



Rose loves to point out how old the Trinity belief is...But the Jewish faith has a bit of a jump on it....

I was an atheist for most of my young life... When I read the Bible for the first time I started at Genesis and just kept going... I never encountered the concept of the Trinity until I attended church... It is absolutely impossible to extrapolate the Trinity from the OT...

So...

How come the Jews never picked up on the Trinity?

Were they ( prophets, kings and folk who actually spoke with God.... You know... Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Solomon and David, Job, etc) all just really stupid?

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