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Nov 8, 2019 23:36:58   #
Parky60 Loc: Champaign, IL
 
PeterS wrote:
Blade. You don't seem to grasp the concept of ideology. I'm trying to explain why we do something and you are sitting trying to tell us we are different because one shit's red and the other shit's blue. The color of our shit is irrelevant...Liberals are progressive and Conservatives are regressive. THAT is why we are different in ALL of our views.

Liberals will NEVER adhere to a single status quo. Conservatives ALWAYS seek out the status quo...either current or past and doggedly try to stick to it. "Make American Great Again." Here you are seeking out a past status quo. "Keep America Great." Here you are trying to maintain a current status quo--one that can only exist if you are in control. (That's a topic beyond this discussion)

To a liberal progressive America's greatness is achieved when we live up to the promises of our founding documents. The Civil War, as horrid as it was, helped us to live up to our promise of equality. Child labor laws, as well as unions and all labor laws, anti-monopoly laws--ALL added another plank to America's greatness.

Add to that; the vote for women, the end to Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement of the 50's and 60's, and the women movement. Top it off with SS and medicare and all are progressive movements--movements that you conservatives largely fought tooth and nail. Why? Because as you always do, you were trying to maintain the status quo. Why? Because due to your ideology you are politically regressive and even something as small as a plastic straw will cause you to extend your claws and cause you to dig in as tightly as you possibly can to resist any kind of movement to change.

To liberals, we are always going to move forward and seldom is it going to be neat and tidy but generally messy and unseemly. FDR was famous for saying (to paraphrase) he was willing to try a dozen things if only one might work. And he did, with many failures, but the success kept this nation together during one of its most trying times. THAT'S liberalism. It's a messy process but look at the accomplishments! This nation was BORN of liberalism and ironically, even today, economically you conservatives adhere to Classical Liberalism...again, a past status quo.

I don't care about the color of our shit Blade. If you could turn back time to 1776 that's where conservatives would stay. Status quo is where conservatives gain their security. Well, piss on the status quo; for us liberals, there were promises made and promises to keep. We are moving forward--we always have and always will--whether you conservatives like it or not!

The link below is the best book on Political Ideology that I've run across. Amazon has it dirt cheap but the link is to a PDF if that is how you roll. Blade you will never understand Liberals or Conservatives until you understand the WHY behind what we believe. You don't, so excuse me if I don't comment on the subjective trivialities of what you wrote.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318837732_Political_ideologies_Their_Origins_and_Impact_Twelfth_edition
Blade. You don't seem to grasp the concept of ideo... (show quote)

Liberal progressive is nothing more than a new name for communists Pete. And you're nothing more than a useful idiot.

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 00:45:32   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
TexaCan wrote:
Can you give me verses that back up those statements? We are taught to always fight against evil, to fight the good fight! If you study Revelation it will explain the battles and the evil that is coming. If you haven’t noticed, my favorite verse is “Be still and know that I am God!” This verse is a very special verse to me and has carried me through some of the worst times of my life. In 44 years of marriage my husband has been at deaths door three times, two of those times he wasn’t supposed to survive. For me that verse meant hang on, I’m right here beside you. When you can’t handle one more moment, I’ll handle it for you....when you can’t take one more step, I will carry you! Both of those times I was here in Alabama all by myself. The peace that overtook me was indescribable! I know what that verse means! It was a miracle that my husband survived and it was a miracle for the peace and comfort and love that He sheltered me with. Have you ever experienced that miracle? Be still and know that He is your God and He is My God and anyone’s God that calls out to Him in faith and belief !

Evil is all around us! That’s why we are to always put on our armor! Just turn on the news!!!!!
Can you give me verses that back up those statemen... (show quote)


It's fascinating how our individual life experiences shape our understanding of scripture.... Thank you for this sharing...

Glad that your husband pulled through those times

I have always interpreted the verse to mean that one must stop seaking to define God, and simply accept what He is....


Evil is a part of this world....

How we fight it is a matter of perspective

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Nov 9, 2019 00:47:13   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Parky60 wrote:
Liberal progressive is nothing more than a new name for communists Pete. And you're nothing more than a useful idiot.


Liberal progressives and communists have almost nothing in common....

Where did you come up with that ridiculous statement?

A negative stating a negative equates to a positive

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Nov 9, 2019 02:16:57   #
Blade_Runner Loc: DARK SIDE OF THE MOON
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Liberal progressives and communists have almost nothing in common....

Where did you come up with that ridiculous statement?

A negative stating a negative equates to a positive
Like Judeo-Christianity has nothing in common with Islam?

The Cultural Marxist Origins of Modern Progressivism

Communists and Progressive Liberals: Comrades for Life

The Progressive Era

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 02:44:40   #
PeterS
 
Blade_Runner wrote:
I put no stock in your lectures on political ideologies, you present them from a subjective ideological perspective that is uncompromising and dogmatic, biased in the extreme. IOW, you are an ideologue. The statement that "Liberals are progressive and Conservatives are regressive" is a blatantly false premise.

The "subjective trivialities" I posted are the result of an analysis by political scientists with no dog in the hunt. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the basic differences between conservatism and progressivism. Even a cursory study of Marxist philosophy provides a working picture of progressive ideology. OTH, a study of the values and political perspective of our founding fathers provides a clear understanding of conservatism.

All we hear these days is right this and left that, conservative this and liberal that - right, left, right, left, ignoring all the while the vertical dimension. If we don't get the vertical dimension of why we are here, what it means to be human, will we ever know that humans have intrinsic worth? We argue incessantly about human rights and never discuss our right to be human.

The subject of this thread is the vertical dimension. God is awesome, God is eternal, unchanging, all knowing, God was, is and always will be the "status quo". Nothing you can say or do will ever change that.
I put no stock in your lectures on political ideol... (show quote)

Blade, you once told me that Conservatism wasn't an ideology. That tells me right there that you don't know the first thing about our political ideologies or why we have them. And you have experts? Where are they? I gave you a link to a book that first came out in the Seventies and has been through 12 revisions. I doubt if there is a college in this country, liberal or conservative, where it hasn't been taught at one point or another.

Your problem is that you can't accept who you are. You think I am denigrating you when I say you are regressive and seeking Status-quo. I'm not, those are simply the principle characteristics that cause Conservatism to be what it is. You are traditionalists yes or no? Well, that is both regressive and seeking status quo. You adhere to fundamental religion yes or now? Well, that is regressive and seeking status quo. And the list goes on but it all comes down to your endeavor to move back to some point in time you perceive to be better or you cling doggedly to where you are now.

You, on the other hand, tried to denigrate me with your comments on Marx and Communism. Well, I know about Marx and I know about Communism and I also know that a Liberal Progressive seldom, IF EVER, moves backward to past endeavors successful or failures. We are PROGRESSIVE, we do not move backward.

Your fear is your belief that we are on a slippery slope but instead, we are on a continuation of the path that we already on. We have employed a mixed economy (capitalism and socialism) since the thirties. And there would be no reason to change if capitalism was delivering on its end. But it isn't, so healthcare and education are going to become more socialized.

If this has you Lemmings wanting to jump off the cliff I can't help you there but the world conservatives seem to think is coming to an end is, for us liberals, just another day.

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Nov 9, 2019 03:50:29   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 


Certainly not.... False comparison...


Attempting to draw comparisons based on cursory similarities is hardly definitive...

Can you tell me what you believe the end goal of Social Progressives is?

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Nov 9, 2019 03:54:21   #
PeterS
 
Parky60 wrote:
Liberal progressive is nothing more than a new name for communists Pete. And you're nothing more than a useful idiot.

If that's the case then a regressive conservative is just another name for a fascist. You are nothing more than a useful idiot for the RW elite...

Now, don't you feel better that we had that intellectual debate...

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 05:41:07   #
Radiance3
 
PeterS wrote:
If that's the case then a regressive conservative is just another name for a fascist. You are nothing more than a useful idiot for the RW elite...

Now, don't you feel better that we had that intellectual debate...

============
May I join please. PeterS, here are the facts of how liberals behave at present.

Characteristics of Liberals and Progressives based on their present behavior.
Progressives are narcissistic. They focus on their own, what they could depend and get from others. They care less about the country, but their own, how they could be comfortable at the expense of others. Progressives/liberals are violent when confronted of their faults. Most progressives/liberals deny God.
Progressives end up being regressives.
Liberalism depend on big government to take care of themselves.

quote)"Modern liberals are generally willing to experiment with large-scale social change to further their project of protecting and enhancing individual freedom. Conservatives are generally suspicious of such ideologically driven programs, insisting that lasting and beneficial social change must proceed organically, through gradual shifts in public attitudes, values, customs, and institutions. "

Conservatives focus on self responsibilities, to share their achievements to others, to country, and family. Conservatives achieve to be self-independent, with faith and religion, carried forward to their generation. Conservatism has capitalistic ventures to advance and grow.
Conservatism has more loyalty towards having a government under a republic, and to nurture and adhere to the great foundation principles where it started.

Conservatism has the tendency to grow and achieve.
Conservatives have happier families because they have faith in God.

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 07:54:33   #
Parky60 Loc: Champaign, IL
 
PeterS wrote:
If that's the case then a regressive conservative is just another name for a fascist. You are nothing more than a useful idiot for the RW elite...

Now, don't you feel better that we had that intellectual debate...

I'm not a regressive conservative Pete. And I'm definitely not a fascist.

You always seem to conveniently forget that part of the definition fascism states: EXALTS nation and often race above the individual (God is the only one I exalt and ALL races are equal) AND I certainly don't support a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader.

And if you can't see -- it's as plain as the nose on your face -- that the liberal progressives are trying to lead us into socialism and the next step communism you truly are a useful idiot.

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 11:07:10   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Quick question...

Is the disbelief in the Trinity new?

Or have there been sects that rejected it throughout Christian history?


The trinity as it is typically believed today didn’t exist (in its current form) until the fourth century. Before that, there were subordinationist Trinitarians, and monarchianists (one God folk). Subortionist Trinitarians like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, state they believed there was a time when the son was not. Tertullian explicitly said that God was not a Father the son, nor a judge until there was sin. It wasn’t until Origen that the “eternal sonship” was postulated. And that met with no small amount of resistance because the earlier trinity belief was that of the subordinationists.

There have always been groups of Christians who rejected the trinity.

Michael Servetus is a prime example of a non-Trinitarian. The Roman Catholics committed the sin of “going to law against brothers (see 1 Corinthians 6) by going to Constantine in the case of Paul of Samosata, and in the case of Arius vs Athanasius. The Protestants (Luther and especially John Calvin) we’re complicit in taking Michael Servetus before the law to have him condemned to death. This error is exactly the same as when, in Moses time, the murdering Jew was a “tale bearer” against Moses. The Jew’s tradition on this claimed the Jews showed they weren’t ready for salvation by committing that act. Also showing that “a little leaven leave a the whole lump.” So Protestants who follow Luther and Calvin have that event as evidence of “whereby you will know them by their fruits” for “no murderer has eternal life.”

Thomas Jefferson was Also a famous non-Trinitarian (but he also had some odd beliefs, for example he disbelieved Jesus’ miracles were literal).

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 11:27:23   #
TexaCan Loc: Heart in W Texas - feet on the beach in Al.
 
PeterS wrote:
Blade. You don't seem to grasp the concept of ideology. I'm trying to explain why we do something and you are sitting trying to tell us we are different because one shit's red and the other shit's blue. The color of our shit is irrelevant...Liberals are progressive and Conservatives are regressive. THAT is why we are different in ALL of our views.

Liberals will NEVER adhere to a single status quo. Conservatives ALWAYS seek out the status quo...either current or past and doggedly try to stick to it. "Make American Great Again." Here you are seeking out a past status quo. "Keep America Great." Here you are trying to maintain a current status quo--one that can only exist if you are in control. (That's a topic beyond this discussion)

To a liberal progressive America's greatness is achieved when we live up to the promises of our founding documents. The Civil War, as horrid as it was, helped us to live up to our promise of equality. Child labor laws, as well as unions and all labor laws, anti-monopoly laws--ALL added another plank to America's greatness.

Add to that; the vote for women, the end to Jim Crow, the Civil Rights movement of the 50's and 60's, and the women movement. Top it off with SS and medicare and all are progressive movements--movements that you conservatives largely fought tooth and nail. Why? Because as you always do, you were trying to maintain the status quo. Why? Because due to your ideology you are politically regressive and even something as small as a plastic straw will cause you to extend your claws and cause you to dig in as tightly as you possibly can to resist any kind of movement to change.

To liberals, we are always going to move forward and seldom is it going to be neat and tidy but generally messy and unseemly. FDR was famous for saying (to paraphrase) he was willing to try a dozen things if only one might work. And he did, with many failures, but the success kept this nation together during one of its most trying times. THAT'S liberalism. It's a messy process but look at the accomplishments! This nation was BORN of liberalism and ironically, even today, economically you conservatives adhere to Classical Liberalism...again, a past status quo.

I don't care about the color of our shit Blade. If you could turn back time to 1776 that's where conservatives would stay. Status quo is where conservatives gain their security. Well, piss on the status quo; for us liberals, there were promises made and promises to keep. We are moving forward--we always have and always will--whether you conservatives like it or not!

The link below is the best book on Political Ideology that I've run across. Amazon has it dirt cheap but the link is to a PDF if that is how you roll. Blade you will never understand Liberals or Conservatives until you understand the WHY behind what we believe. You don't, so excuse me if I don't comment on the subjective trivialities of what you wrote.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318837732_Political_ideologies_Their_Origins_and_Impact_Twelfth_edition
Blade. You don't seem to grasp the concept of ideo... (show quote)


I must agree with you on one of your statements completely! “To liberals, we are always going to move forward and seldom is it going to be neat and tidy but generally messy and unseemly.” FDR would be proud....practice has been successful and very profitable! Have you ever had someone describe in detail of an abortion by someone who witnessed it firsthand? Many many years ago when my niece was going to school to get her LVN Nursing License, she watched an abortion at an abortion clinic! She was in her 20’s and was very liberal. At the time she was supportive of a woman’s right to abort her baby! When she came home and described the sick, evil, slaughtering, torturing murder of that baby, she sobbed while in the arms of her Mother! My niece is a person who hides her emotions and never cries in front of people. Nurses don’t have a tendency to be Drama Queens! This ‘vision’ changed her understanding of what a fetus is.......it’s a real live baby that is murdered in an abortion! Every person that supports abortion should have to watch one UP close and Personal! IMHO It would change the minds of many people, especially women!

For anyone, whether they are conservatives or Christians or Liberals or Atheists, to consider the dismemberment of a baby and pulling them out of the miracle safe secure nurturing place that God provided them with from the time of conception to birth, and then sorting through those little parts to pick out those that can be sold for MONEY, “moving forward and a successful accomplishment”.....................how can anyone of you look at your own babies and imagine the Mother making that fateful decision to end your baby’s life? How many Mothers and Dads have missed the blessing of a lifetime of watching and loving and living the miracles and the beautiful wonders of this life through the eyes of their children and grandchildren!

I realize that the timing of some pregnancies are to the point of being impossible, but there are enough people that are unable to have children or just want and choose to adopt babies because the Lord put the need to add to their own family through adoption! I believe that all babies are a blessing and have a place and a purpose in this world.

Let’s turn the clock backwards and stop this senseless murder of the greatest of all blessings! The blessings of our Lord and Savior for our country would be unimaginable if we could accomplish this! IMHO!

MARANATHA

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 11:48:03   #
TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA
 
TexaCan wrote:
I must agree with you on one of your statements completely! “To liberals, we are always going to move forward and seldom is it going to be neat and tidy but generally messy and unseemly.” FDR would be proud....practice has been successful and very profitable! Have you ever had someone describe in detail of an abortion by someone who witnessed it firsthand? Many many years ago when my niece was going to school to get her LVN Nursing License, she watched an abortion at an abortion clinic! She was in her 20’s and was very liberal. At the time she was supportive of a woman’s right to abort her baby! When she came home and described the sick, evil, slaughtering, torturing murder of that baby, she sobbed while in the arms of her Mother! My niece is a person who hides her emotions and never cries in front of people. Nurses don’t have a tendency to be Drama Queens! This ‘vision’ changed her understanding of what a fetus is.......it’s a real live baby that is murdered in an abortion! Every person that supports abortion should have to watch one UP close and Personal! IMHO It would change the minds of many people, especially women!

For anyone, whether they are conservatives or Christians or Liberals or Atheists, to consider the dismemberment of a baby and pulling them out of the miracle safe secure nurturing place that God provided them with from the time of conception to birth, and then sorting through those little parts to pick out those that can be sold for MONEY, “moving forward and a successful accomplishment”.....................how can anyone of you look at your own babies and imagine the Mother making that fateful decision to end your baby’s life? How many Mothers and Dads have missed the blessing of a lifetime of watching and loving and living the miracles and the beautiful wonders of this life through the eyes of their children and grandchildren!

I realize that the timing of some pregnancies are to the point of being impossible, but there are enough people that are unable to have children or just want and choose to adopt babies because the Lord put the need to add to their own family through adoption! I believe that all babies are a blessing and have a place and a purpose in this world.

Let’s turn the clock backwards and stop this senseless murder of the greatest of all blessings! The blessings of our Lord and Savior for our country would be unimaginable if we could accomplish this! IMHO!

MARANATHA
I must agree with you on one of your statements co... (show quote)


Amen and amen!!!

Great post!!!

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 17:29:09   #
Rose42
 
TommyRadd wrote:
The trinity as it is typically believed today didn’t exist (in its current form) until the fourth century. Before that, there were subordinationist Trinitarians, and monarchianists (one God folk). Subortionist Trinitarians like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, state they believed there was a time when the son was not. Tertullian explicitly said that God was not a Father the son, nor a judge until there was sin. It wasn’t until Origen that the “eternal sonship” was postulated. And that met with no small amount of resistance because the earlier trinity belief was that of the subordinationists.

There have always been groups of Christians who rejected the trinity.

Michael Servetus is a prime example of a non-Trinitarian. The Roman Catholics committed the sin of “going to law against brothers (see 1 Corinthians 6) by going to Constantine in the case of Paul of Samosata, and in the case of Arius vs Athanasius. The Protestants (Luther and especially John Calvin) we’re complicit in taking Michael Servetus before the law to have him condemned to death. This error is exactly the same as when, in Moses time, the murdering Jew was a “tale bearer” against Moses. The Jew’s tradition on this claimed the Jews showed they weren’t ready for salvation by committing that act. Also showing that “a little leaven leave a the whole lump.” So Protestants who follow Luther and Calvin have that event as evidence of “whereby you will know them by their fruits” for “no murderer has eternal life.”

Thomas Jefferson was Also a famous non-Trinitarian (but he also had some odd beliefs, for example he disbelieved Jesus’ miracles were literal).
The trinity as it is typically believed today didn... (show quote)


Throughout history there have always been heretics who reject God’s triune nature, just as there have always been heretics that reject Christ’s divinity or heretics that believe works will save you among other things.

Whether or not they were or are Christians will be known on judgement day.

Some rely on man for their theology - such as the trinity deniers - and others rely on God’s word. God’s word trumps man’s every time.

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 17:48:45   #
JediKnight
 
Peter S: I want to applaud and thank you for taking the time to express your viewpoint on Liberals and Conservatives. You wrote clearly and succinctly in a way that is hard to refute. I have often tried to relay the very sentiment you express -but admit that I usually fall miserably short.

The only point I would add would be this: due to the ingrained thought process of Conservatives (especially those who long to ("keep America great") lies a conscious commitment to the old ideology that has plagued this nation for long and restrained us from fulfilling all the promises within the Constitution envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

As much as I dislike the idea, I am convinced that there are simply (still) many here in our country who refuse to let go of the hate, racism, and discrimination that taints us in favor of their ideal of superiority. Therefore, I am afraid we will always have a certain number of those thinkers among us. It appears that currently a majority of those thinkers hide in the shadows of the republican party. Thank you for sharing....keep the faith!

| Reply
Nov 9, 2019 17:50:15   #
JediKnight
 
Rose42 wrote:
Throughout history there have always been heretics who reject God’s triune nature, just as there have always been heretics that reject Christ’s divinity or heretics that believe works will save you among other things.

Whether or not they were or are Christians will be known on judgement day.

Some rely on man for their theology - such as the trinity deniers - and others rely on God’s word. God’s word trumps man’s every time.


Very well said Rose! "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was with God..." John 1:1

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