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Oct 17, 2019 06:41:12   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
There are different views in the Oneness churches of how to interpret who is God. They believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only one person. Some say He changes from one to another (this is the most ancient form of oneness) being the Father first in creation, the Son in redemption and now the Holy Spirit. Others Say the Father is the Holy Spirit and that the Son is his humanness in which the father dwelt. Still others say that the one person who is God manifests in all three at the same time, but they are not persons. Another says that these are modes, titles, but not persons, that the Holy Spirit is the Father who incarnated in the Son (humanity) so that He is deity. All concentrate on the strict singularity that God is one, and one person only.

There is only one God but that is not in reference to His person, but in his nature as being the one God.
We believe that He exists as certain identities that are always there; these identities can do other functions as messenger or priest, but it does not change who they are.

This is to explain and refute their main arguments

1. The word Trinity is not found in the bible !

Answer- The word Trinity or eternal Son is not specifically found in the Bible. But the concept is. This doesn’t seem to stop Oneness from using their non biblical terminology to explain their own beliefs. Where does it say the Holy Ghost is the Father or that Jesus calls the Father Jesus, or the Father calls Jesus the Father or the Holy Spirit? Where do we find the word Oneness, or where does it teach or specifically say the word for Father or Son are modes or roles? Nowhere does it say all three are manifestations.

There are many words used to describe doctrines that are not found in the scripture. The word Bible is not specifically found in the Bible, should we dispense with that too?

Certainly the word Oneness is not! We all use terms such as chapter and verse, even numbers that are not in the original writings. If they were consistent in their beliefs and theological position, they would not believe in chapter and verse and would remove these from their Bibles as well.

Although the word Trinity is not found in the scriptures we can see the concept is clearly expressed. We find several times it is God himself who states he is plural in persons. Oneness adherents neglect these descriptions and major on all the singular descriptions. Isaiah 48:16

2. Where does it say God is three persons?

Answer- it does not say this in a sentence but it is a biblical conclusion one comes to by studying and seeing that there are three called God. Originally oneness said there were three manifestations. now they have added more. We believe that Abraham, Moses, John and Peter were not only persons, but different persons. Yet, nowhere does it specifically say they are persons. When we read of angels such as Michael or Gabriel we know they are persons, just as we know Satan who is a Spirit being is a person. but the Bible never specifically says they are persons. The term "person" should not be restricted to human beings alone, since angels are personal subjects also. Using this word is an accommodation of our human language to show individual identity. They have consciousness, they are intelligent, they have will and they communicate. This makes distinct in identity.

Where does it say God is one person? It only states God is one, so the question is one what?

If both appear at the same time are they not two different persons? If they communicate and discuss and plan then they are personal identities. As humanity we all share together human nature, yet we are all different persons. As the One God there are only three that share in his nature as God.

"When we use the word person we are trying to differentiate between who is who in personality. For in all languages the words Father and Son are personal and not nominal designations; to say our Lord intended these words to have merely nominal signification, while in all languages they have a personal signification, is to say he employed language more likely to deceive than to instruct; and not only so, but he commanded others to perpetuate the same deception down to the end of time;" (Christian Theology 5th ed. P.67-73)

If God is a personal being, a person, (not a human person of course) then the Father is a person, so is the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each time one of these appears they are a person. So when the Father appears He is that person who is God, and when the Son appears He is that person. Therefore by logic if all three appear at the same time, (which they do) they are three persons who are the one God. God who became man is a person not a percentage.

When it says Jesus is the exact image of God should we not think of him as a person who has the nature of God. And in who's image is he exactly like? Another who is a person, his Father. If the image is a person so is the one he is the image of (not physical). Oneness claims Father and Son are only titles of a single person, who is God. The terms of the Son and Father are not titles of a single person, but different titles that belong to two different personalities. This is seen clearly as Jesus said the father sent him From heaven.

3. How can all three be equal in power, if Jesus prayed to the Father?

Oneness views the Son praying to the Father as only a man. So it is not persons that are in relevant dialogue as two who’s, but only natures. This becomes only an illusion of two individual persons for Jesus is only speaking to the father. Which means he is totally a human, not God but only talks to God. This means Jesus is not God, but only the father who is in him using his body as a vehicle, which means he is not one person as the God man but God in man.

If one can understand the emptying of Christ in Philippians 2:5-8, this whole problem is resolved. If they allow the scripture to speak, and ponder it, it becomes clear what is transpiring. The mistake is to assume that for there to be communication, one must be less in nature than another.

This was not an emptying of his deity, as a substance change of nature but a putting aside of his position and independent use of power. By giving up his independent use of his divine attributes he became a servant depending on the Holy Spirit for his strength and the Father for his instructions. When one becomes a slave, they do not give up their skills but submit to another in a higher position. This is why at that time He said "the Father is greater than I" John 14:28. ...positionally He was.)

The mistake made is that one confuses subjection with inferiority. For example Jesus in Luke 2:51-52 was subject to his parents. Here we have the God/man who is subjecting himself to two sinful humans. Certainly he was superior in position and nature to both, being their creator. Jesus also put Himself under the law, being subject to its commands to fulfill it perfectly. Certainly He being the one who gave the law was greater, yet He willingly put himself under it, as both God and man.

If it was the Father who lowered himself, to whom did he become obedient? One does not serve and obey from the flesh only, but the whole person is involved. This is most important when it comes to Jesus. Christ is the God/man obeying the Father. It does not say only in his humanity was he lowered. Verse 5 "Who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God. 7: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Notice that the one He is describing first existed in the nature of God and continues in this nature. He then put aside his reputation taking on another form (nature) of a servant, being made a man, which was added to His deity. Notice it states He was equal with God at the same time existing in His form (nature). This is expressed in John 1:1.

Scripture presents Jesus being sent from heaven made a little lower than the angels, that He humbled Himself as both God and man, not just as a man, He was one whole person (Hebrew 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8). Then in due time he was highly exalted, Jesus was not on earth doing his ministry in a exalted state but in a state of humility, until after His resurrection. That is when He received all authority, which he had previously, from God, the Father.

God speaks to our spirit. Doesn’t our spirit operate through our mind? If you keep quiet and speak internally in your heart can God hear you? Of course. Is that your flesh communing with him or your Spirit? Can the spirit communicate to God? Of course it can, when we die, we still have the ability to communicate with God without our Body. If Jesus was praying to the Father, why speak toward heaven if the Father was located inside Him? The simple answer is that God, the Father was never incarnated, just as Jesus said, He alone has seen the Father.

1st Timothy 3:16 "God was manifested in the flesh" (appeared in) He was the fullness of God in bodily form (1st Timothy 3:16; 1st John 4:2; 2nd John 7) "came in the flesh," This is when Christ "emptied Himself"; God, the Holy Spirit and God, the Father did not become flesh.

#4. If the Holy Ghost conceived Jesus then he must be his Father.

This is where the Oneness’ flaw of personhood begins. If one does not know who is incarnated or who the begetter is, they certainly will be confused on the relationship the Son has with the Father.

If He is "God with us" then He is a person, and if He is a person then he is different then the begetter, no matter what theological meaning you pour into it. Otherwise the begetter becomes the begotten, which is exactly what Oneness does.

God was not literally his Father anymore than the devil was literally the Pharisee's Father.

Jesus who was begot by the Holy Spirit in His humanity.

To be "the son of" meant having the same "nature of" but it is not passed on the same way as mankind. God did not become Jesus’ Father from His being born into the world. He is called the Son prior to his birth and the Father exists as well before he was born, so his birth did not begin his Sonship; He is both 100% man and 100% God. He is one person. True God became flesh, anything less than this makes the incarnation not a true event.

As the Son he is one person with two natures, human and deity. The Son of God came in the flesh as the Son of man. The confusion comes from his premise that the Spirit who begot him is in Jesus as the Father.

Isa.7:14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call his name Immanuel, God with us. Here we find the Son is God not just a human. Luke 1:35 "he will be called the Son of God. Son = God. In Verse 32 he is called "the Son of the highest," meaning the Son has the same nature of deity as his Father. Since his Father is a person, so is He as the Son, so we need to distinguish persons sharing in common the same essence within the Godhead.

If The Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus Christ" and "Jesus is the Father, Son and Spirit," doesn’t this make the Holy Ghost the Father of the Father, Son and Spirit? ... so He conceived and fathered Himself, that is a real miracle! How can He be all three if they are all temporary modes he "changes into?" -meaning He can only be one person at a time.

Remember there is no trinity in Oneness. Also, how can Jesus who is their God, also be the Son who is only human, as well as the Father who is deity, who is also the Holy Spirit? The bible makes distinctions even in the virgin birth, they do not.

Isaiah 9:6 If the Son is the everlasting Father," doesn't this make the Son the Father, but not the Father the Son. Is the humanness the Father?

"As Christ was made of the substance of the virgin, so He was not made of the substance of the Holy Ghost, whose essence cannot at all be made, and because the Holy Ghost did not beget him by any communication of his essence, therefore he is not the Father of Him, though he were conceived by Him." (Dean Alford, "The Four Gospels," published 1863, quoting Pearson on the creed p.165, 166)

In other words:

In Isaiah 9:6 "a child would be born", this refers to his birth and humanity. It also says ‘a Son will be given" this refers to his nature of deity as He already was the Son in his pre-existence. He is sent from heaven as the Son, who is eternal alongside the Father.
God gave his only begotten son.

The Bible tells us it was the Son who incarnated, it was the Son who was begotten. It was the Father who is attributed as the begetter. If one makes them all one person then it was the Father who was incarnated and died for our sins.

The Bible shows that all three persons are involved in the incarnation.

#5 Trinitarians destroyed all our literature, and they are following Rome!

Oneness claims the trinity doctrine was not fully developed until the fourth century, and it was modalism that was developed in the beginning, one at a time. Now they believe they can have 3 manifestations simultaneously, but none of them are persons. Why? If one manifestation is a person then it follows the others must be as well.

The earliest vestiges of modalism are found in the late 100's and were held as different views as time went on. The trinity is found even earlier especially the writings of Jesus being God as the Son of God.The trinity was used before Tertullian or Irenaeus debated with Oneness, so development for the trinity was already being defended in the church in different locations. Oneness can only jump in the barrel and go over the falls with this view. To say the trinity is developed is to also agree their view was well reasoned.

This goes against the legalistic view spoken of by Oneness teachers from the pulpit but they cannot it by history, so it becomes a matter of their own biased opinion, just like the JW's. The Oneness have very little ancient literature, and our information comes from those who believe in the Trinity.

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 08:35:10   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Have never understood Oneness theology... I looked into it back in my college days...I'm sure you can see how it appealed to me...

I am interested.... "The trinity was used before Tertullian or Irenaeus debated with Oneness, so development for the trinity was already being defended in the church in different locations. "... what sources are there to substantiate this?.... I searched rather adamantly for early sources of the Trinity back when I was looking for ways to counter Tommy on the first thread the topic was brought up on...I could find nothing earlier than Justin Martyr....

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 12:32:10   #
bahmer
 
Amen and Amen a very good article there Zemirah thanks for posting this.

Reply
 
 
Oct 17, 2019 12:45:50   #
Rose42
 
Good article Zemirah, thanks. And as always, the best explanation for the Trinity is found in the bible itself.

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 17:31:14   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Sure, you have a smug assurance of your own superior reasoning and intellect, believing if everyone else believes that, you, most assuredly, can upend them, proving the reverse to be true.

You were looking at the writings and opinions of men who lived and wrote after the Scriptures were completed and closed.

"Saint" Justin Martyr, (d. 165 A.D.) one of the most important of the Greek philosopher-Apologists in the early Christian church. His writings represent the "first positive encounter" of Christian revelation with Greek philosophy (?) and laid the basis for a theology of history...

Why?

Did you consider insufficient what God had recorded through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that is written down for the ages, which was completed ca. 96 A.D.?

The Bible is all that is necessary for the believer to understand the character of God, the nature of man, and the doctrines of sin, heaven, hell, and salvation through Jesus Christ.

When discussing Scripture, Christians are referring to both Old and New Testaments. The apostle Paul declared that the holy Scriptures “are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15–17).

If Scripture is “God-breathed,” then it is not man-breathed, and, although it was penned by men, those “men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). No man-made writing is sufficient to equip us for every good work; only the Word of God can do that. Furthermore, if the Scriptures are sufficient to thoroughly equip us, then nothing more is needed.

Colossians 2 deals with the dangers a church faces when the sufficiency of Scripture is challenged and merged with non-biblical writings, full of ungodly theology and concepts. Paul warned the church at Colosse: “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” (Colossians 2:8).

Jude says it even more specifically when he writes, “Although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints” (Jude 1:3).

Notice the phrase “once and for all.” This makes it clear that no other writings, no matter how godly the pastor, theologian, or denominational church they may come from, are to be seen as equal to or completing the Word of God.

Paul’s words to the Galatians indicate the seriousness of delivering a message outside the Bible: “If we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8).

Perhaps the strongest verses on the issue of the sufficiency of the Bible come from the book of Psalms. In Psalm 19:7–14, David rejoices in God’s Word, declaring it to be perfect, trustworthy, right, radiant, enlightening, sure and altogether righteous.

The sufficiency of Scripture is under attack today, far too often in our own churches. Management techniques, worldly methods of drawing crowds, entertainment, extra-biblical revelations, mysticism, and some forms of psychological counseling all declare that the Bible and its precepts are not adequate for the Christian life, and that more is needed.

But Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me” (John 10:27). His voice is all we need to hear and the Scriptures are His voice, completely and utterly sufficient.



Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Have never understood Oneness theology... I looked into it back in my college days...I'm sure you can see how it appealed to me...

I am interested.... "The trinity was used before Tertullian or Irenaeus debated with Oneness, so development for the trinity was already being defended in the church in different locations. "... what sources are there to substantiate this?.... I searched rather adamantly for early sources of the Trinity back when I was looking for ways to counter Tommy on the first thread the topic was brought up on...I could find nothing earlier than Justin Martyr....
Have never understood Oneness theology... I looked... (show quote)

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 17:36:54   #
bahmer
 
Zemirah wrote:
Sure, you have a smug assurance of your own superior reasoning and intellect, believing if everyone else believes that, you, most assuredly, can upend them, proving the reverse to be true.

You were looking at the writings and opinions of men who lived and wrote after the Scriptures were completed and closed.

"Saint" Justin Martyr, (d. 165 A.D.) one of the most important of the Greek philosopher-Apologists in the early Christian church. His writings represent the "first positive encounter" of Christian revelation with Greek philosophy (?) and laid the basis for a theology of history...

Why?

Did you consider insufficient what God had recorded through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that is written down for the ages, which was completed ca. 96 A.D.?

The Bible is all that is necessary for the believer to understand the character of God, the nature of man, and the doctrines of sin, heaven, hell, and salvation through Jesus Christ.

When discussing Scripture, Christians are referring to both Old and New Testaments. The apostle Paul declared that the holy Scriptures “are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15–17).

If Scripture is “God-breathed,” then it is not man-breathed, and, although it was penned by men, those “men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). No man-made writing is sufficient to equip us for every good work; only the Word of God can do that. Furthermore, if the Scriptures are sufficient to thoroughly equip us, then nothing more is needed.

Colossians 2 deals with the dangers a church faces when the sufficiency of Scripture is challenged and merged with non-biblical writings, full of ungodly theology and concepts. Paul warned the church at Colosse: “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” (Colossians 2:8).

Jude says it even more specifically when he writes, “Although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints” (Jude 1:3).

Notice the phrase “once and for all.” This makes it clear that no other writings, no matter how godly the pastor, theologian, or denominational church they may come from, are to be seen as equal to or completing the Word of God.

Paul’s words to the Galatians indicate the seriousness of delivering a message outside the Bible: “If we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8).

Perhaps the strongest verses on the issue of the sufficiency of the Bible come from the book of Psalms. In Psalm 19:7–14, David rejoices in God’s Word, declaring it to be perfect, trustworthy, right, radiant, enlightening, sure and altogether righteous.

The sufficiency of Scripture is under attack today, far too often in our own churches. Management techniques, worldly methods of drawing crowds, entertainment, extra-biblical revelations, mysticism, and some forms of psychological counseling all declare that the Bible and its precepts are not adequate for the Christian life, and that more is needed.

But Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me” (John 10:27). His voice is all we need to hear and the Scriptures are His voice, completely and utterly sufficient.
Sure, you have a smug assurance of your own superi... (show quote)


Amen and Amen

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 19:18:53   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
Sure, you have a smug assurance of your own superior reasoning and intellect, believing if everyone else believes that, you, most assuredly, can upend them, proving the reverse to be true.

You were looking at the writings and opinions of men who lived and wrote after the Scriptures were completed and closed.

"Saint" Justin Martyr, (d. 165 A.D.) one of the most important of the Greek philosopher-Apologists in the early Christian church. His writings represent the "first positive encounter" of Christian revelation with Greek philosophy (?) and laid the basis for a theology of history...

Why?

Did you consider insufficient what God had recorded through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that is written down for the ages, which was completed ca. 96 A.D.?

The Bible is all that is necessary for the believer to understand the character of God, the nature of man, and the doctrines of sin, heaven, hell, and salvation through Jesus Christ.

When discussing Scripture, Christians are referring to both Old and New Testaments. The apostle Paul declared that the holy Scriptures “are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15–17).

If Scripture is “God-breathed,” then it is not man-breathed, and, although it was penned by men, those “men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). No man-made writing is sufficient to equip us for every good work; only the Word of God can do that. Furthermore, if the Scriptures are sufficient to thoroughly equip us, then nothing more is needed.

Colossians 2 deals with the dangers a church faces when the sufficiency of Scripture is challenged and merged with non-biblical writings, full of ungodly theology and concepts. Paul warned the church at Colosse: “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” (Colossians 2:8).

Jude says it even more specifically when he writes, “Although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints” (Jude 1:3).

Notice the phrase “once and for all.” This makes it clear that no other writings, no matter how godly the pastor, theologian, or denominational church they may come from, are to be seen as equal to or completing the Word of God.

Paul’s words to the Galatians indicate the seriousness of delivering a message outside the Bible: “If we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8).

Perhaps the strongest verses on the issue of the sufficiency of the Bible come from the book of Psalms. In Psalm 19:7–14, David rejoices in God’s Word, declaring it to be perfect, trustworthy, right, radiant, enlightening, sure and altogether righteous.

The sufficiency of Scripture is under attack today, far too often in our own churches. Management techniques, worldly methods of drawing crowds, entertainment, extra-biblical revelations, mysticism, and some forms of psychological counseling all declare that the Bible and its precepts are not adequate for the Christian life, and that more is needed.

But Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me” (John 10:27). His voice is all we need to hear and the Scriptures are His voice, completely and utterly sufficient.
Sure, you have a smug assurance of your own superi... (show quote)


No idea where that came from...

I was attempting to counter Tommy because he is excellent at forming arguments and I wanted to engage with him....

Turns out we disagree on another topic and I will engage him there


So basically you posted a defense of the Trinity stating that there were sources for the Trinity before Tertullion...But tour don't know what they are or are unable yo provide them...

Certainly props up your argument

Reply
 
 
Oct 17, 2019 19:20:20   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
Sure, you have a smug assurance of your own superior reasoning and intellect, believing if everyone else believes that, you, most assuredly, can upend them, proving the reverse to be true.

You were looking at the writings and opinions of men who lived and wrote after the Scriptures were completed and closed.

"Saint" Justin Martyr, (d. 165 A.D.) one of the most important of the Greek philosopher-Apologists in the early Christian church. His writings represent the "first positive encounter" of Christian revelation with Greek philosophy (?) and laid the basis for a theology of history...

Why?

Did you consider insufficient what God had recorded through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that is written down for the ages, which was completed ca. 96 A.D.?

The Bible is all that is necessary for the believer to understand the character of God, the nature of man, and the doctrines of sin, heaven, hell, and salvation through Jesus Christ.

When discussing Scripture, Christians are referring to both Old and New Testaments. The apostle Paul declared that the holy Scriptures “are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15–17).

If Scripture is “God-breathed,” then it is not man-breathed, and, although it was penned by men, those “men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). No man-made writing is sufficient to equip us for every good work; only the Word of God can do that. Furthermore, if the Scriptures are sufficient to thoroughly equip us, then nothing more is needed.

Colossians 2 deals with the dangers a church faces when the sufficiency of Scripture is challenged and merged with non-biblical writings, full of ungodly theology and concepts. Paul warned the church at Colosse: “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” (Colossians 2:8).

Jude says it even more specifically when he writes, “Although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints” (Jude 1:3).

Notice the phrase “once and for all.” This makes it clear that no other writings, no matter how godly the pastor, theologian, or denominational church they may come from, are to be seen as equal to or completing the Word of God.

Paul’s words to the Galatians indicate the seriousness of delivering a message outside the Bible: “If we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8).

Perhaps the strongest verses on the issue of the sufficiency of the Bible come from the book of Psalms. In Psalm 19:7–14, David rejoices in God’s Word, declaring it to be perfect, trustworthy, right, radiant, enlightening, sure and altogether righteous.

The sufficiency of Scripture is under attack today, far too often in our own churches. Management techniques, worldly methods of drawing crowds, entertainment, extra-biblical revelations, mysticism, and some forms of psychological counseling all declare that the Bible and its precepts are not adequate for the Christian life, and that more is needed.

But Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me” (John 10:27). His voice is all we need to hear and the Scriptures are His voice, completely and utterly sufficient.
Sure, you have a smug assurance of your own superi... (show quote)


"The trinity was used before Tertullian or Irenaeus debated with Oneness, so development for the trinity was already being defended in the church in different locations. "

Sources...Please

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 19:26:43   #
Rose42
 
bahmer wrote:
Amen and Amen


Indeed.

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 20:35:20   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
FYI, I reside in the U.S., where your "hurry up, "chop chop," approach is less than fruitful.

I have sufficient words. Don't attempt to attribute your wretched thoughts or words "don't know" or "can't provide them" to me.

I have no idea why you are engaged in the promotion, bordering on outright worship of overly opinionated, underly informed, rude boorish behavior; it is embarrassing for you.

My information doesn't need "propping up."

Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240 AD) was born approximately 125 years after the church's inception, give him 30 years to become an adult, and the church and its members had 95 years to understand and teach the doctrine of the Trinity before he joined them.

What I know I know. What you are demanding I provide you is not my priority at this moment. Develop and exhibit some decorum. Waiting develops patience.


Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
No idea where that came from...

I was attempting to counter Tommy because he is excellent at forming arguments and I wanted to engage with him....

Turns out we disagree on another topic and I will engage him there


So basically you posted a defense of the Trinity stating that there were sources for the Trinity before Tertullion...But tour don't know what they are or are unable yo provide them...

Certainly props up your argument
No idea where that came from... br br I was atte... (show quote)

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 20:39:22   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
I have sufficient words. Don't attempt to attribute your wretched thoughts or words of "don't know" or "can't provide them" to me.

I have no idea why you are engaged in the promotion, bordering on outright worship of overly opinionated, underly informed, rude boorish behavior, to me; it is embarrassing for you.

My information doesn't need "propping up."

Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240 AD) was born approximately 125 years after the church's inception, give him 30 years to become an adult, and the church and its members had 95 years to understand and teach the doctrine of the Trinity before he joined them.

What I know I know. What you are demanding I provide you is not my priority at this moment. Develop and exhibit some decorum. Your turn will roll around.
I have sufficient words. Don't attempt to attribut... (show quote)


Sources please...Just one... That espoused the Trinity doctrine before Tertullian... Should be hordes of them if the Trinity was firmly established almost a hundred years before his birth...

Just one...

Reply
 
 
Oct 17, 2019 22:09:47   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
You're playing fast and loose with words. You just erased 30 years. I said before Tertullian's maturity, which I placed at 30 years of age, not at his birth. That is a slight of hand.

I said it was being defended within the fledgling churches. You changed that to "firmly established."

When you change the goal posts, you're being less than honest.

The obvious starting place would be within the New Testament, which was established in 30A.D., sixty five years before the Apostle John wrote "Revelation," to complete it, but knowing your disdain for Holy Scripture, here are four individuals and six statements after God's Word closed.

Here's three from Ignatius (30 A.D.-107 A.D.), one from Polycarp (70-155/160), one from Justin Martyr. (110 A.D.-165 A.D.), and one from Irenaeus (115-190A.D.)

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: on the Trinity

The following are excerpts of trinitarian doctrines found in the early church fathers writings, after the apostles had departed this earth, and gone home.

Ignatius a.d. 30–107

Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Chapter IV

But the Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Father. For, says He, “the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father’s, who sent Me.” And says He of the Holy Spirit, “He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever things He shall hear from Me.” And He says of Himself to the Father, “I have,” says He, “glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men.” And of the Holy Ghost, “He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine.”
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians Chapter IX

For if there is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, “of whom are all things;” and one Lord Jesus Christ, our [Lord], “by whom are all things;” and also one Holy Spirit, who wrought in Moses, and in the prophets and apostles;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians Chapter I

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr a.d. 110–165

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.
The First Apology Chapter LXI

Irenaeus (115-190A.D.). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)


Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Sources please...Just one... That espoused the Trinity doctrine before Tertullian... Should be hordes of them if the Trinity was firmly established almost a hundred years before his birth...

Just one...

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 23:06:26   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
You're playing fast and loose with words. You just erased 30 years. I said before Tertullian's maturity, which I placed at 30 years of age, not at his birth. That is a slight of hand.

I said it was being defended within the fledgling churches. You changed that to "firmly established."

When you change the goal posts, you're being less than honest.

The obvious starting place would be within the New Testament, which was established in 30A.D., sixty five years before the Apostle John wrote "Revelation," to complete it, but knowing your disdain for Holy Scripture, here are four individuals and six statements after God's Word closed.

Here's three from Ignatius (30 A.D.-107 A.D.), one from Polycarp (70-155/160), one from Justin Martyr. (110 A.D.-165 A.D.), and one from Irenaeus (115-190A.D.)

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: on the Trinity

The following are excerpts of trinitarian doctrines found in the early church fathers writings, after the apostles had departed this earth, and gone home.

Ignatius a.d. 30–107

Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Chapter IV

But the Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Father. For, says He, “the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father’s, who sent Me.” And says He of the Holy Spirit, “He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever things He shall hear from Me.” And He says of Himself to the Father, “I have,” says He, “glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men.” And of the Holy Ghost, “He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine.”
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians Chapter IX

For if there is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, “of whom are all things;” and one Lord Jesus Christ, our [Lord], “by whom are all things;” and also one Holy Spirit, who wrought in Moses, and in the prophets and apostles;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians Chapter I

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr a.d. 110–165

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.
The First Apology Chapter LXI

Irenaeus (115-190A.D.). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
You're playing fast and loose with words. You just... (show quote)


Apologies... I was not moving the goal post...But you are correct, I misrepresented your words... My apologies again...

Thank you for the sources... I am about to arrive at a luncheon meeting, but I look forward to getting and discussing them this evening....

Cheers

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 23:16:25   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
My brother-in-law passed from this earth this week. I have another sister from Florida coming in for his funeral.

I apologize if I've been less than cordial, I've been preoccupied.

God Bless.


Canuckus Deploracus wrote:
Apologies... I was not moving the goal post...But you are correct, I misrepresented your words... My apologies again...

Thank you for the sources... I am about to arrive at a luncheon meeting, but I look forward to getting and discussing them this evening....

Cheers

Reply
Oct 17, 2019 23:24:17   #
Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall
 
Zemirah wrote:
My brother-in-law passed from this earth this week. I have another sister from Florida coming in for his funeral.

I apologize if I've been less than cordial, I've been preoccupied.

God Bless.


My condolences... And my prayers for all of you...

My grandmother is also passing... We found out Thanksgiving evening... The doctors gave her a week at best... The blessings is she isn't in any pain and spends most of her time sleeping...And we have all managed to speak with her one final time...

I apologize as well..

I have been using the OPP to vent some of my sorrow at my impending loss...

God bless you Zemirah...

Reply
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