TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

The opposite of love is merely apathy. What exposes your hate is your actions. You actively lie and bear false witness against me. And when pointed out, rather than attempt to prove your accusations, you either don't reply, or just keep repeating the same lies and false accusations.

Yeah, I'd definitely define your actions of constant, unsubstantiated, false accusations and slander against me as active hatred.



https://www.onepoliticalplaza.com/t-166568-4.html#3011446

I wish you had enough integrity to quote where I said what you claim I believe. Because, in truth, you don't actually listen to what I actually say I believe anymore than you listen to what the Bible actually says. And that makes you a false witness and a liar.

What kind of relationship do you have with Jesus?

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:15

Do you Love Him? That is a relationship- keeping his commandments is a relationship of love. Why don't you keep his commandments?

Do you want to be friends with Jesus Christ? It is written again- “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” -John 15:14

Do you want to know Him? “we… know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” -1 John 2:3

Do you want a Father and Son relationship with God? “…be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” -2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1

Separation from the world, the scripture teaches, is part of God's Father/son relationship with us!

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” -1 John 2:15-17

Would you like to have an Elder/Firstborn brother in Jesus Christ? Here's what Jesus says about that- “…My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” -Luke 8:21

Now let's look at it this way- What about a relationship with Jesus Christ without obedience?

Do you want to know Him but not keep His commandments? Apostle John wrote- “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” -1 John 2:4-5

Do you want to claim Jesus as Lord, but not "have to" do the will of the Father? Jesus said- “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father... Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied.. cast out devils.. and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock…” -Matthew 7:21.


So keeping Jesus’ commandments are paramount for having a relationship with Jesus. What are his commandments? It is most telling that Jesus reiterated the first commandment in Greek words and grammar.

"The Lord our God (masculine, singular, accusative) is one (masculine, singular, accusative)" Mark 12:29

One: Greek "heîs, hice; a primary numeral; one" -Strong's

And it is in this manner that both Jesus and the Jews understood the first commandment.

"We know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews... God (singular) is spirit (singular), and those who worship him (singular) must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:22,24

According to Jesus, and that by commandment, God is one, singular, "Him."

Ironically, Trinitarians understand that the NT explains the OT. But they reject that principal when it comes to the first commandment. The OT Hebrew word for god, “elohim”, is a plural word, like our “sheep” for example. If we say "we have one sheep" and "sheep is one", we have emphatically excluded the possibility that we are talking about "multiple persons in one sheep." And that is how illogical and contrived the idiotic theory of the trinity is. God's word utterly clarifies the ambiguity in the plurality of the word just like we would do with an English plural word like sheep. Plus, it is not true of the Greek word for God, "Theos", that Jesus himself used to translate Deuteronomy 6:4, which is emphatically singular, both in meaning and in grammatical number. The Greek is very specific. If Jesus meant to use the word theos in a way that meant or implied multiple persons he could easily have done so, but he didn't. Thus Jesus himself emphasized the personal singularity of God by enshrining it in a commandment just like the OT did.

Singular: “Singular Number in substantives and verbs refers to only one Person or Thing, e.g. “I”, “you” (one person), he, she, it.” -Wheeler’s Greek Syntax.

Deny it all you want, negate his choice of words all you want, bear false witness against him all you want, but the fact stands that Jesus himself translated the first and most important commandment with words that emphatically excluded the idea of a Trinity of persons in the godhead, and Trinitarians simply don't believe him and won't obey him, and when given the opportunity, like you have been given in these discussions you fight tooth and nail against the first commandment as it is stated by Jesus God's own son!

And thereby you expose that your whole claim to having a relationship with Jesus is a lie according to the apostle John:

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4

Rose42

I have asked you simple yes or no questions which you avoided answering. That is an answer in itself. Its also revealing that only those weak in faith buy into your opinion.

I am sorry for you because you are so caught up in self but are too proud to see it. I seldom read your posts because they are repetitious and go nowhere. You want to be right more than you want truth.

I am also sorry for those who don’t have the spiritual discernment to see the truth. I hope you have it someday.

Jesus Christ is my Savior and Lord. I thank God every day for His greatest gift to us.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I agree...

Tommy, you owe Rose an apology...

Your answers to her simple questions ate far too long (thorough) and complicated (exact)..

Try dubbing it down...

Rose, I've asked you simple questions any number of times without receiving an answer..

It's also revealing that you consider those who disagree with you as being weak in faith... Though I must admit I do find myself lacking in your brand of faith...

"I am sorry for you because you are so caught up in self but are too proud to see it. You want to be right more than you want truth. "

I am starting to think "spiritual discernment" has a different meaning to some... It is sort of a deflection you can throw out any time you don't have the ability to debate a point...

Be blessed in Christ... Amen

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

I disagree that I owe Rose an apology. Show me where I didn't answer her questions. How I choose to answer is not a non-answer. I quote everything she (or anyone else) says that I am addressing. I don't put words in her mouth like she does to me. I appreciate your attempt at peace-making, and I do take it to heart, but I disagree.

TommyRadd Loc: Midwest USA

And your false, unsubstantiated accusations just don't cease.

Rose42

You ARE weak in the Christian faith and your claim to Christianity is dubious at best from what you’ve written. I’m not the only one whose picked up on it. We’ve been over this before. You either accept Christ’s message or you don’t. Its not pick and choose what you want to believe. Thats what you have done. You deny Him when you say there is more than one path to salvation among other things. Spiritual discernment allows one to see truth and deception. Its not rocket science.

bahmer

Amen and Amen

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Is there anything in Jewish Hebrew about the Trinity?

Begin with the source of Jewish theology: the Hebrew Scriptures. So much relies on Hebrew language usage, to the Hebrew we should turn.

1. God is a plurality
The name Elohim

It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending “im.” The very word Elohim used of the true God in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” is also used in Exodus 20:3, “You shall have no other gods (Elohim) before Me,” and in Deuteronomy 13:2, “…Iet us go after other gods (Elohim)…” While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead since it is the word that is used of the one true God as well as for the many false gods.

Plural verbs used with Elohim
Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When “Elohim” is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:

“But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is ‘bara’ which means ‘he created’—singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God.”

The point made is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet followed by a plural verb:

Genesis 20:13: “And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander [literally: They caused me to wander] from my father’s house…Genesis 35:7: “…because there God (Elohim) appeared unto him…” [Literally: They appeared unto him.]

2 Samuel 7:23: “…God (Elohim) went…” [Literally: They went.]
Psalm 58:12: “Surely He is God (Elohim) who judges…[Literally: They judge.]

The Name Eloah
If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could have easily been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.
Plural pronouns for God

Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:

Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said,”Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.…”

He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:

“Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this verse which says, “And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness,” Moses said, “Master of the universe, why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God).” God answered Moses, “You write and whoever wants to err, let him err.”1

It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is trying to simply get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to Himself in the plural.

The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen in:

Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us…”Genesis 11:7: “Come, let Us go down, and there confuse their language…”

Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?”

This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular “I” and the plural “us” except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).

Plural descriptions of God
One point of Hebrew is that nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:

Ecclesiastes 12:1: “Remember now your creator…” [Literally: creators.]
Psalm 149:2: “Let Israel rejoice in their Maker.” [Literally: makers.]
Joshua 24:19: “…holy God…” [Literally: holy Gods.]
Isaiah 54:5: “For your Maker is your husband…” [Literally: makers, husbands.]

Everything said rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. Our theology on the Scriptures alone affirms God’s unity, the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

The Shema
Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the Shema, has always been Israel’s great confession. This verse more than any other is used to affirm that God is one and is used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?

The very words “our God” are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean “our Gods.” However, the main argument lies in the word “one,” which is a Hebrew word, echad. A glance through the Hebrew text can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute “one” but a compound “one.” In Genesis 1:5, the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24, a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two “shall become one (echad) flesh.” In Ezra 2:64, the whole assembly was as one (echad), though composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). The word echad in Scripture is a compound and not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word that is an absolute unity, yachid, found in many Scripture passages,2 the emphasis being on the meaning of “only.” If Moses intended to teach God’s absolute oneness, this would have been a far more appropriate word. Maimonides noted the strength of “yachid” and used that word in his “Thirteen Articles of Faith” in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use “yachid” in reference to God.

II. God is at least two.
Elohim and YHVH applied to two personalities

To make the case for plurality stronger, within the Hebrew Scriptures the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:7-8:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

The 1st Elohim is being addressed and the 2nd Elohim is the God of the 1st Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

A 2nd example is Hosea 1:7:
“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”

The speaker is Elohim who will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So the 1st Elohim will save Israel by the 2nd Elohim. Elohim is applied to two personalities in this verse, and so is the name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24 which reads:

“Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.”

The 1st YHVH is raining fire and brimstone from the 2nd YHVH who is in heaven, the 1st one being on earth.

A 2nd example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

For thus says the LORD of Hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”

Again, one YHVH sends another YHVH to perform a specific task.

The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:
“Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. Can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.”4

III. God is three
How many persons are there?

If the Hebrew Scriptures point to plurality, how many personalities in the Godhead exist? We have seen the names of God applied to two different personalities. In Hebrew Scriptures, we find three and only three distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. 1s is to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A 2nd personality is the Angel of YHVH. This individual is in Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse 2 and he is both YHVH and God in verse 4. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11, 12, 20, and 21 but is YHVH himself in verse unique from all other angels. Wherever found He is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH Himself. In Genesis 16:7 He is the Angel of YHVH, but in 16:13 as YHVH Himself. In Genesis 22:11 He is the Angel of YHVH, but God Himself in 22:12. Other examples exist.5 In Exodus 23:20-23 this angel has the power to pardon sin because God’s own name YHVH is in him, and, He is to be obeyed without question. God’s own name within this angel shows His divine status.

3. A third personality is the Spirit of God, the Ruach Ha-kodesh. References among which are Genesis 1:2, 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7; Isaiah 11:2, etc. The Holy Spirit is not a mere emanation because He contains the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is divine.

From the Hebrew Scriptures there are three personalities referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities in the Same Passage
Nor have the Hebrew Scriptures neglected to put all three personalities of the Godhead together in one passage. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD has loved him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent me.”

The speaker identifies himself as responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. He can be only God. In verse 16, the speaker calls himself I and me, distinguishing himself from two others, the Lord YHVH and the Spirit of God. This is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

The 2nd passage reflects back to the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH in verse 7, the Angel of YHVH in verse 9 and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as the one solely responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. All three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion on the Jewishness of the Trinity
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures is a plurality of the Godhead. The 1st person is consistently called YHVH, the 2nd person as YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the 2nd person is sent by the first person. The 3rd person is known as the Spirit of YHVH, the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the 2nd person.

New Testament insight on the Trinity
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes more specific. The 1st person is called the Father, the 2nd person the Son. The New Testament answers Proverbs 30:4: “…What is His name, and what is his Son’s name, if you know?” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). To comply with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but as a man instead of an angel. He is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. God became a man (not that man became God) to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the 3rd person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the 2nd person. In keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, there is a continuous body of teaching in the Old and New Testaments relating to the Tri-unity of God.

Footnotes
1Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26, New York: NOP Press, N.D.
2Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21; 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10
3″Personal Name of God of Israel,” written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name avoided since 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was “Adonai” (“the Lord”), replaced by “ha-Shem” (“the Name”). Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of “Adonai.”—Encyclopedic Dictionary of Judaica, p. 593
4Zohar, vol. III, 288, vol. II, 43, Hebrew editions. See also Soncino Press edition, vol. III, 134.
5In Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, then the God of Bethel in verse 13. In Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse 2 and he is both YHVH and God in verse 4. In Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11, 12, 20, and 21 but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. In Judges 13:3 and 21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is God himself in verse 22.

Compiled by Jews For Jesus

bahmer

Amen and Amen Excellent I didn't know all of those things before thanks fot posting these.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

Thanks for your thanks, bahmer.

bahmer

You are always teaching me new and wonderful things that I have not had the all the answers to. I have always trusted that the translators were learned men and if they didn't all agree it would have somehow been contested and thus I have accepted the Triune God.

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

I don't know how anyone can read the Bible, and fail to understand that One God dwells perfectly in three personalities that are one.

Here's what Billy Graham said about the Holy Spirit:

https://billygraham.org/answer/is-the-holy-spirit-a-person-or-a-force/

Is the Holy Spirit a person or a force?

"The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit has all the attributes of personality and is not merely an impersonal force. In John chapters 14, 15, and 16, for example, Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as “He”. Jesus also referred to the Holy Spirit as the Comforter or the Counselor (John 14:16 and 15:26). This title conveys the ideas of advising, exhorting, comforting, strengthening, interceding, and encouraging.

"In addition, the Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is God Himself. In Acts 5:1-4 a man who lied to the Holy Spirit is said to have lied to God. The Holy Spirit is also described in the Bible as having the characteristics of God and doing God’s work. He convicts people of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8-11) and gives new life to those who trust in Jesus (John 3:8).

"That He is the third Person of the Holy Trinity is made clear by His inclusion with the Father and the Son in such Bible passages as Matthew 28:19. Here the apostles are commanded to baptize those who receive the Gospel “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

"In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon people, anointing them for a specific task or purpose (Exodus 31:1-5; Numbers 24:2). In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit dwells within all believers (1 Corinthians 6:19), assures them that they are children of God (Romans 8:16), enables them to live the Christian life (Romans 8:9, 12-15), and gifts them for Christian service (1 Corinthians, chapter 12)."

Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...

The greatest treasure life has to offer is the reality that the Triune God has accepted all who repent (literally turn and go the other way), and, in faith, confess Jesus openly before the world.

You are a humble man; I assure you your knowledge surely surpasses mine in Scripture and in Holy living.

Rose42

Its not letting me do a quote reply. I thought I’d read this before. Have you posted this before Zemirah? Maybe I’m losing my mind.

Thanks for posting it. I need to copy it for future reference.

Canuckus Deploracus Loc: North of the wall

I enjoyed this as well...

Although I don't entirely agree with it..

Good post