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The last of morality died with Jesus
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Oct 8, 2019 23:44:21   #
rumitoid
 
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me": the Key and crux of the New Testament. By spirit and grace, not effort and intent. The New Testament clarifies that the Law was meant to show men their need of salvation and was never intended to be the means of salvation (Romans 3:19). Doing good, obeying the Law is not enough: the lesson of the Old Testament.

Please feel free to just insult and condemn me and never address or rebuke or educate me. I say what is biblical truth never framed in a way you recognize. If we had a valid debate on this point, you would slowly realize I am right in my assessment.

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Oct 9, 2019 02:55:40   #
PeterS
 
rumitoid wrote:
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me": the Key and crux of the New Testament. By spirit and grace, not effort and intent. The New Testament clarifies that the Law was meant to show men their need of salvation and was never intended to be the means of salvation (Romans 3:19). Doing good, obeying the Law is not enough: the lesson of the Old Testament.

Please feel free to just insult and condemn me and never address or rebuke or educate me. I say what is biblical truth never framed in a way you recognize. If we had a valid debate on this point, you would slowly realize I am right in my assessment.
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no l... (show quote)

Oh come now Rummi, a conservative Christian (CC) ever realize someone else is right about something??? The one good thing is that CC's don't bother about obeying the law so they are ahead of you there!!!

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Oct 9, 2019 04:56:08   #
Zemirah Loc: Sojourner En Route...
 
Hebrew 7:11-28 - A Superior Priesthood

11 Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.
14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, a tribe as to which Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
16 one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life.

17 For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”a
18 So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And none of this happened without an oath. For others became priests without an oath,
21 but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”b

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office.
24 But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore He is able to save completelyc those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Footnotes:

17 a Psalm 110:4 *
21 b Psalm 110:4 **
25 c Or forever

* **Psalm 110:4 "The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind:

“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”



rumitoid wrote:
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me": the Key and crux of the New Testament. By spirit and grace, not effort and intent. The New Testament clarifies that the Law was meant to show men their need of salvation and was never intended to be the means of salvation (Romans 3:19). Doing good, obeying the Law is not enough: the lesson of the Old Testament.

Please feel free to just insult and condemn me and never address or rebuke or educate me. I say what is biblical truth never framed in a way you recognize. If we had a valid debate on this point, you would slowly realize I am right in my assessment.
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no l... (show quote)

| Reply
Oct 9, 2019 10:56:46   #
bahmer
 
Zemirah wrote:
Hebrew 7:11-28 - A Superior Priesthood

11 Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.
14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, a tribe as to which Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
16 one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life.

17 For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”a
18 So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And none of this happened without an oath. For others became priests without an oath,
21 but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”b

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office.
24 But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore He is able to save completelyc those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Footnotes:

17 a Psalm 110:4 *
21 b Psalm 110:4 **
25 c Or forever

* **Psalm 110:4 "The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind:

“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrew 7:11-28 - A Superior Priesthood br br 11 N... (show quote)


Amen and Amen very good there Zemirah thanks for that post.

| Reply
Oct 9, 2019 13:21:52   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me": the Key and crux of the New Testament. By spirit and grace, not effort and intent. The New Testament clarifies that the Law was meant to show men their need of salvation and was never intended to be the means of salvation (Romans 3:19). Doing good, obeying the Law is not enough: the lesson of the Old Testament.
"I have been crucified with Christ and I no l... (show quote)


That's part of it. The New Testament is about repentance and salvation in Christ. It also takes effort, will and intent to be saved. It takes effort, will and intent to completely submit to Christ. It takes effort, will and intent to not yield to temptation and be led by the Spirit. It takes effort, will and intent to be a Christian. We are in a spiritual war. There's no easy way through it.

There's more to the Old Testament than what you've said. MUCH more. It teaches us about God's ways, wisdom, sin, redemption and points to Christ. Among other things.

"For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope." Romans 15:4

Quote:
Please feel free to just insult and condemn me and never address or rebuke or educate me. I say what is biblical truth never framed in a way you recognize. If we had a valid debate on this point, you would slowly realize I am right in my assessment.


Your melodrama is unnecessary. You're all over the map when it comes to the bible. You have *some* truth but a lot of untruths as well.

You are all over the map when it comes to the bible. You need to read it with regards to what God is trying to communicate to us, not for what it means to you. To do that we need to dump our pride.

| Reply
Oct 10, 2019 20:24:25   #
rumitoid
 
PeterS wrote:
Oh come now Rummi, a conservative Christian (CC) ever realize someone else is right about something??? The one good thing is that CC's don't bother about obeying the law so they are ahead of you there!!!


Good point.

| Reply
Oct 10, 2019 20:26:30   #
rumitoid
 
Zemirah wrote:
Hebrew 7:11-28 - A Superior Priesthood

11 Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.
14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, a tribe as to which Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
16 one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life.

17 For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”a
18 So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And none of this happened without an oath. For others became priests without an oath,
21 but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”b

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office.
24 But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore He is able to save completelyc those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Footnotes:

17 a Psalm 110:4 *
21 b Psalm 110:4 **
25 c Or forever

* **Psalm 110:4 "The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind:

“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrew 7:11-28 - A Superior Priesthood br br 11 N... (show quote)


You proved my point with this: 11 "Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood"...through morality!

| Reply
Oct 10, 2019 20:42:30   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
Your melodrama is unnecessary. You're all over the map when it comes to the bible. You have *some* truth but a lot of untruths as well.

You are all over the map when it comes to the bible. You need to read it with regards to what God is trying to communicate to us, not for what it means to you. To do that we need to dump our pride.


What if I said this: we are not to follow or believe in Christ but to be as Christ. Of course, it is necessary to first follow and believe in order to be as Christ, yet grace alone makes for the transformation into a "new creation." No effort or intent.

You need to read the Bible deeply, not closely. I have no doubt that you are devout and wise and kind, a "good person." I should not have made this an argument. For me, there are no Christian ideals, principles, and morals: there is only Christ. All the rest depends on our own limited and biased understanding based on some system of belief or articles of faith. The Chruch has never really accepted the radical nature of grace, mostly out of caution for the craziness of claiming such grace may produce. Be grounded in the Word. Be grounded totally in grace and the Word is with you and in you and active.

The only work is to surrender completely, not resist temptation or do good.

Just how I see things.

(Sorry, Thursday Night Football; I will be back at halftime.)

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Oct 11, 2019 09:57:06   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
What if I said this: we are not to follow or believe in Christ but to be as Christ. Of course, it is necessary to first follow and believe in order to be as Christ, yet grace alone makes for the transformation into a "new creation." No effort or intent.


Yes its grace alone that saves us. The effort is in choosing to submit.

Quote:
You need to read the Bible deeply, not closely. I have no doubt that you are devout and wise and kind, a "good person." I should not have made this an argument. For me, there are no Christian ideals, principles, and morals: there is only Christ. All the rest depends on our own limited and biased understanding based on some system of belief or articles of faith. The Chruch has never really accepted the radical nature of grace, mostly out of caution for the craziness of claiming such grace may produce. Be grounded in the Word. Be grounded totally in grace and the Word is with you and in you and active.

The only work is to surrender completely, not resist temptation or do good.
You need to read the Bible deeply, not closely. I ... (show quote)


That's not the complete picture. It takes effort and will to resist temptation. Without it you'll succumb to temptation every time. Its also an act of will to repent every time you sin.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us," - Hebrews 12:1

The Greek word for race is "agon" where we get the English word agony. Being a Christian takes effort and will and it isn't easy. Paul spoke of his war with the flesh too in Romans 6:23-25. Jesus tells us the way is hard and few find it.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." -Matthew 7:13-14.

There are many other examples.

I don't think you have an understanding of what the Church is. Its not a denomination nor is it articles of faith. Its the body of believers. You keep saying people don't understand the 'radical nature of grace'. To that I say - of course they do. Anyone who is saved understands we deserve nothing from God.

Quote:
Just how I see things.

(Sorry, Thursday Night Football; I will be back at halftime.)


Perhaps you meant it differently than I read it. This medium has its limitations...

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Oct 11, 2019 20:52:31   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
Perhaps you meant it differently than I read it. This medium has its limitations...


I do not think that we really disagree, I simply frame what you are saying in more extreme degrees. "For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world." Hebrews4:10 The work is to cease the work (effort and intent) and simply and fully surrender to spirit and grace. And please show me in the New Testament where it says to resist temptation? That is not our job. Leo Tolstoi said Jesus only had to say three words: "Resist not evil." It's the penultimate truth.

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Oct 12, 2019 09:54:26   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
I do not think that we really disagree, I simply frame what you are saying in more extreme degrees. "For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world." Hebrews4:10 The work is to cease the work (effort and intent) and simply and fully surrender to spirit and grace. And please show me in the New Testament where it says to resist temptation? That is not our job. Leo Tolstoi said Jesus only had to say three words: "Resist not evil." It's the penultimate truth.
I do not think that we really disagree, I simply f... (show quote)


No that is not what Hebrews 4:10 means. Its talking about the sabbath.

We are not to resist temptation? What are you talking about? We are no longer tempted or it takes no effort? Total surrender doesn’t mean there will be no more effort. Being a Christian isn’t easy. It wasn’t easy for Paul or any of the apostles.

I see no truth in what Tolstoy said but see truth in what James had to say -

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4:7

There is so much more you are missing. Do you believe you can stop sinning? If not then you think there’s no effort or will involved?

“Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
- Ephesians 6:10-12

I recommend you get a study bible and read verses in context. There are a lot of good commentaries. Your method of interpretation leads you astray.

| Reply
Oct 12, 2019 15:32:04   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
No that is not what Hebrews 4:10 means. Its talking about the sabbath.

We are not to resist temptation? What are you talking about? We are no longer tempted or it takes no effort? Total surrender doesn’t mean there will be no more effort. Being a Christian isn’t easy. It wasn’t easy for Paul or any of the apostles.

I see no truth in what Tolstoy said but see truth in what James had to say -

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4:7

There is so much more you are missing. Do you believe you can stop sinning? If not then you think there’s no effort or will involved?

“Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
- Ephesians 6:10-12

I recommend you get a study bible and read verses in context. There are a lot of good commentaries. Your method of interpretation leads you astray.
No that is not what Hebrews 4:10 means. Its talki... (show quote)


First, and you should know this, Jesus is the sabbath; we are to rest in him 24/7. That is what Hebrews 4:10 means. The rest should be obvious. Some Scripture is for those who are yet to realize that their struggles and resistance to sin interferes with the free flow of spirit and grace. Training wheels, of a sort.

I do have a study Bible,have had it for forty years. And a Strong's Concordance. And maybe 100 or so books on Commentaries about Scripture from the likes of...never mind. (Smith Wigglesworth is the foremost.) Sorry, put I do not feel you put enough into seeing what I am trying to reveal. It is radical and unfamiliar from probably anything you ever heard. I can appreciate your doubt. But it perfectly reflects the New Testament.

John Baumgartner, who led the research into Noah's Ark on Mount Ararak and is a geophysicist (who proved through diamonds the age of Earth), was our Sunday school teacher at Calvary Chapel in Los Alamos, NM, and worked for the Government Lab there.

I had no idea who he was at his Bible Study with the church. Whether you believe it or not, on that first day he was positively stunned by my insights. He offered me a free apartment over his garage so we could discuss more. He wanted to help me write a book after reading my copious notes on Scripture, numbering over a thousand pages. But drinking and gambling seemed like a better idea to me at the time. The devil does not like competition. Is that statement hubris?

| Reply
Oct 12, 2019 16:24:58   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
First, and you should know this, Jesus is the sabbath; we are to rest in him 24/7. That is what Hebrews 4:10 means. The rest should be obvious. Some Scripture is for those who are yet to realize that their struggles and resistance to sin interferes with the free flow of spirit and grace. Training wheels, of a sort.


I know what it means. I was combining a conversation I was having with someone else. Lol. Thats what happens when you don’t proof what you post.

Do you know what resting in Christ means? Is He Lord over all aspects of your life? Have you submitted to Him completely?

Quote:
I do have a study Bible,have had it for forty years. And a Strong's Concordance. And maybe 100 or so books on Commentaries about Scripture from the likes of...never mind.


I’d never have guessed because some of the things you write are so far off and flat out wrong. And you’ve mocked God numerous times.

Quote:
(Smith Wigglesworth is the foremost.) Sorry, put I do not feel you put enough into seeing what I am trying to reveal. It is radical and unfamiliar from probably anything you ever heard. I can appreciate your doubt. But it perfectly reflects the New Testament.


You really believe you have something new to reveal that no one else ever has? Some special insight? Seriously???

Quote:
John Baumgartner, who led the research into Noah's Ark on Mount Ararak and is a geophysicist (who proved through diamonds the age of Earth), was our Sunday school teacher at Calvary Chapel in Los Alamos, NM, and worked for the Government Lab there.

I had no idea who he was at his Bible Study with the church. Whether you believe it or not, on that first day he was positively stunned by my insights. He offered me a free apartment over his garage so we could discuss more. He wanted to help me write a book after reading my copious notes on Scripture, numbering over a thousand pages. But drinking and gambling seemed like a better idea to me at the time. The devil does not like competition. Is that statement hubris?
John Baumgartner, who led the research into Noah's... (show quote)


Yes its hubris. And its not the Holy Spirit thats leading you

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Oct 12, 2019 16:29:02   #
rumitoid
 
Rose42 wrote:
Yes its hubris. And its not the Holy Spirit thats leading you


Okay. No, I have nothing new to reveal, but I feel I have a way of expressing it that is more precise and insightful than our vaunted organized religions that put the name of Jesus behind in their quest with Wesley and Luther and Calvin, oh my.

It has bothered me for a while in almost all the churches I have attended in fifty years that they tend to de-radicalized what is for me--for me!--the true message of Christ. They will caution against a complete reliance on grace to stay grounded in tradition and dogma, or else the risk of antinomianism or mystical irreverence and hubris. (Paul's Romans13 is addressing a Christian group in Rome that felt they owed no more allegiance to the state or any laws because Jesus was about to return and they were saved in him.)

"Fear not" does not usually work to dissuade this assault on grace. The terrible and crazy things some Christians do with the imprimatur of the "Spirit put this in my heart" are not a product of living in radical grace. A person of God does not talk that way about a special instruction from spirit; they act humbly.

| Reply
Oct 12, 2019 16:32:25   #
Rose42
 
rumitoid wrote:
Okay.


Have you completely submitted to Christ, realized you need a savior and repented, and is He Lord over all aspects of your life?

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