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Why isn't Revelation about the power of Christ transforming the world to righteousness instead of world Tribulation?
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Sep 10, 2019 21:09:07   #
rumitoid (a regular here)
 
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Catholic standard), the tribulation always seemed wrong to me. Is that the work of a loving God? I loved Jesus since I was seven years old and believed he could bring peace and love to the entire planet. I avoided reading Revelation for a very long time. For me, its inclusion in the Bible was wrong. To me, God was far better than that. What that means is either it is false or already done, going back to the Apostolic Era. My doubts that I am dealing with recently by prayer and fasting. Many early Christians found the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) suspicious in origin. Plus almost all scholars agree the John of Patmus is not the Apostle John. The distrust of the Book of Revelation persisted in the East through the 15th century.

More of what is troubling is that the Roman Emperor, Domitian, is no longer viewed as a despot imposing an imperial cult, and it is no longer believed that there was any systematic empire-wide persecution of Christians in his time.[17][additional citation(s) needed] The current view is that Revelation was composed in the context of a conflict within the Christian community of Asia Minor over whether to engage with, or withdraw from, the far larger non-Christian community: Revelation chastises those Christians who wanted to reach an accommodation with the Roman cult of empire.

Truth is a demanding master and cares nothing about our feelings or life, just our heart.

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Sep 10, 2019 21:16:14   #
Armageddun (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Catholic standard), the tribulation always seemed wrong to me. Is that the work of a loving God? I loved Jesus since I was seven years old and believed he could bring peace and love to the entire planet. I avoided reading Revelation for a very long time. For me, its inclusion in the Bible was wrong. To me, God was far better than that. What that means is either it is false or already done, going back to the Apostolic Era. My doubts that I am dealing with recently by prayer and fasting. Many early Christians found the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) suspicious in origin. Plus almost all scholars agree the John of Patmus is not the Apostle John. The distrust of the Book of Revelation persisted in the East through the 15th century.

More of what is troubling is that the Roman Emperor, Domitian, is no longer viewed as a despot imposing an imperial cult, and it is no longer believed that there was any systematic empire-wide persecution of Christians in his time.[17][additional citation(s) needed] The current view is that Revelation was composed in the context of a conflict within the Christian community of Asia Minor over whether to engage with, or withdraw from, the far larger non-Christian community: Revelation chastises those Christians who wanted to reach an accommodation with the Roman cult of empire.

Truth is a demanding master and cares nothing about our feelings or life, just our heart.
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Cathol... (show quote)


I take it you do believe in an God-inspired inerrant Bible?

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Sep 10, 2019 21:26:36   #
rumitoid (a regular here)
 
Armageddun wrote:
I take it you do believe in an God-inspired inerrant Bible?


Absolutely, in a way. It is both spiritual lessons for maturity and tests of maturity, all directed by God.

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Sep 10, 2019 22:55:13   #
Radiance3 (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Catholic standard), the tribulation always seemed wrong to me. Is that the work of a loving God? I loved Jesus since I was seven years old and believed he could bring peace and love to the entire planet. I avoided reading Revelation for a very long time. For me, its inclusion in the Bible was wrong. To me, God was far better than that. What that means is either it is false or already done, going back to the Apostolic Era. My doubts that I am dealing with recently by prayer and fasting. Many early Christians found the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) suspicious in origin. Plus almost all scholars agree the John of Patmus is not the Apostle John. The distrust of the Book of Revelation persisted in the East through the 15th century.

More of what is troubling is that the Roman Emperor, Domitian, is no longer viewed as a despot imposing an imperial cult, and it is no longer believed that there was any systematic empire-wide persecution of Christians in his time.[17][additional citation(s) needed] The current view is that Revelation was composed in the context of a conflict within the Christian community of Asia Minor over whether to engage with, or withdraw from, the far larger non-Christian community: Revelation chastises those Christians who wanted to reach an accommodation with the Roman cult of empire.

Truth is a demanding master and cares nothing about our feelings or life, just our heart.
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Cathol... (show quote)

=================
Rumi, why do you always question the wisdom of God? God said, we are not of this world.
I think in the Book of Revelation, God has tested our performance living in this world, and warning us that if we continue our ways not in conformity with him, there will be punishment. And those who've behaved will be rewarded. God's performance evaluation of our behavior, he warned us to correct or else face punishments. I think that is the simple way of explaining it.

Our life in this world is temporary, a journey that we pass through. Satan's power is in this world.

The phrase “not of this world” is perhaps most well-known for being a Christian. But what exactly does it mean that Christians are “not of this world”? The phrase comes from John 18:36 where Jesus says that His kingdom is “not of this world.” As His followers, Christians are members of His kingdom which is “not of this world,” that is, heaven (Philippians 3:20). Yes, we are on earth for now, but our earthly lives are nothing but a vapor (James 4:14). But eternity, now that is a long time, and that is where a Christian’s focus should really be (1 Peter 5:10).

1 Peter 5:10, "And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you." ... 1 Peter 5:10, NLT: "In his kindness God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus.

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Sep 10, 2019 23:34:20   #
Pennylynn (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Catholic standard), the tribulation always seemed wrong to me. Is that the work of a loving God? I loved Jesus since I was seven years old and believed he could bring peace and love to the entire planet. I avoided reading Revelation for a very long time. For me, its inclusion in the Bible was wrong. To me, God was far better than that. What that means is either it is false or already done, going back to the Apostolic Era. My doubts that I am dealing with recently by prayer and fasting. Many early Christians found the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) suspicious in origin. Plus almost all scholars agree the John of Patmus is not the Apostle John. The distrust of the Book of Revelation persisted in the East through the 15th century.

More of what is troubling is that the Roman Emperor, Domitian, is no longer viewed as a despot imposing an imperial cult, and it is no longer believed that there was any systematic empire-wide persecution of Christians in his time.[17][additional citation(s) needed] The current view is that Revelation was composed in the context of a conflict within the Christian community of Asia Minor over whether to engage with, or withdraw from, the far larger non-Christian community: Revelation chastises those Christians who wanted to reach an accommodation with the Roman cult of empire.

Truth is a demanding master and cares nothing about our feelings or life, just our heart.
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Cathol... (show quote)


The book of Revelations is a combination. The first part are letters to churches established by Saul and his followers. And in the first Bibles, stood alone. The second part is a retelling, the only Judæo-Christian work which survived the Paulinian transformation of the Church, of several Jewish apocalypses worked into one reveal.

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Sep 11, 2019 10:03:13   #
bahmer (a regular here)
 
Pennylynn wrote:
The book of Revelations is a combination. The first part are letters to churches established by Saul and his followers. And in the first Bibles, stood alone. The second part is a retelling, the only Judæo-Christian work which survived the Paulinian transformation of the Church, of several Jewish apocalypses worked into one reveal.


Now you will have rumitoid thoroughly confused.

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Sep 11, 2019 13:52:35   #
Rose42 (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
Absolutely, in a way. It is both spiritual lessons for maturity and tests of maturity, all directed by God.


That’s a no.

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Sep 11, 2019 14:12:02   #
Rose42 (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Catholic standard), the tribulation always seemed wrong to me. Is that the work of a loving God? I loved Jesus since I was seven years old and believed he could bring peace and love to the entire planet. I avoided reading Revelation for a very long time. For me, its inclusion in the Bible was wrong. To me, God was far better than that. What that means is either it is false or already done, going back to the Apostolic Era. My doubts that I am dealing with recently by prayer and fasting. Many early Christians found the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) suspicious in origin. Plus almost all scholars agree the John of Patmus is not the Apostle John. The distrust of the Book of Revelation persisted in the East through the 15th century.

More of what is troubling is that the Roman Emperor, Domitian, is no longer viewed as a despot imposing an imperial cult, and it is no longer believed that there was any systematic empire-wide persecution of Christians in his time.[17][additional citation(s) needed] The current view is that Revelation was composed in the context of a conflict within the Christian community of Asia Minor over whether to engage with, or withdraw from, the far larger non-Christian community: Revelation chastises those Christians who wanted to reach an accommodation with the Roman cult of empire.

Truth is a demanding master and cares nothing about our feelings or life, just our heart.
As a Christian since I was ten days old (by Cathol... (show quote)


Where did you this from?

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Sep 13, 2019 21:03:25   #
Armageddun (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
Absolutely, in a way. It is both spiritual lessons for maturity and tests of maturity, all directed by God.


Excuse me but I have to at least smile. "Absolutely, in a way"? Is that not a violation of the law of non-contradiction? IMHO if there is 1 error, then it all becomes suspect and how or who are we to determine what is and what isn't true. The truth of the Bible is comparable to a woman being pregnant. Either she is or she "ain't" she can't be just a little bit pregnant.

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Sep 14, 2019 00:51:31   #
rumitoid (a regular here)
 
Radiance3 wrote:
=================
Rumi, why do you always question the wisdom of God? God said, we are not of this world.
I think in the Book of Revelation, God has tested our performance living in this world, and warning us that if we continue our ways not in conformity with him, there will be punishment. And those who've behaved will be rewarded. God's performance evaluation of our behavior, he warned us to correct or else face punishments. I think that is the simple way of explaining it.

Our life in this world is temporary, a journey that we pass through. Satan's power is in this world.

The phrase “not of this world” is perhaps most well-known for being a Christian. But what exactly does it mean that Christians are “not of this world”? The phrase comes from John 18:36 where Jesus says that His kingdom is “not of this world.” As His followers, Christians are members of His kingdom which is “not of this world,” that is, heaven (Philippians 3:20). Yes, we are on earth for now, but our earthly lives are nothing but a vapor (James 4:14). But eternity, now that is a long time, and that is where a Christian’s focus should really be (1 Peter 5:10).

1 Peter 5:10, "And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you." ... 1 Peter 5:10, NLT: "In his kindness God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus.
================= br Rumi, why do you always quest... (show quote)


I have not finished reading what you said, just begun actually, and found this fatal flaw in your arguments: "those who've behaved will be rewarded." Total BS and not of scripture. We are to live by spirit and grace: that is our only way to salvation. We are not behaving well, we are surrendered to the defining inner actions on our heart. Our salvation has zero to do with that and my actually cancel our ticket to heaven. I think you misspoke, got somehow carried away.

For me this is wrong: "God has tested our performance living in this world." Never! Why bother, he knows our heart by spirit and grace. Sending a test would be dishonest, do you get that? Behaving well is a secular idea.

"Yes, we are on earth for now, but our earthly lives are nothing but a vapor (James 4:14)" : perfect! No making friends with the world for any personal reason, such as for family, self, or party.

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Sep 14, 2019 23:09:48   #
Radiance3 (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
I have not finished reading what you said, just begun actually, and found this fatal flaw in your arguments: "those who've behaved will be rewarded." Total BS and not of scripture. We are to live by spirit and grace: that is our only way to salvation. We are not behaving well, we are surrendered to the defining inner actions on our heart. Our salvation has zero to do with that and my actually cancel our ticket to heaven. I think you misspoke, got somehow carried away.

For me this is wrong: "God has tested our performance living in this world." Never! Why bother, he knows our heart by spirit and grace. Sending a test would be dishonest, do you get that? Behaving well is a secular idea.

"Yes, we are on earth for now, but our earthly lives are nothing but a vapor (James 4:14)" : perfect! No making friends with the world for any personal reason, such as for family, self, or party.
I have not finished reading what you said, just be... (show quote)

================
For you is spirit and grace alone. For me both spirit and grace and our relationships and what we do in all matters in this world.
This is what I call performance.
Jesus affirms the Ephesians’ positive actions: “I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary” (Revelation 2:2-3).


If you believe in Spirit and grace, what about your actual performance here on earth supporting all the democrat women's abortion of babies. You are supporting all the lies and deceptive works of the democrat party involving treasonous attempts to destroy the government and the president duly elected by the people? My faith as a Catholic don't allow that. God said, thou shall not murder. Abortion is murder.

Do you think God will just allow you to heaven in your belief of spirit and grace, but your actions are all contrary to it? That is what I am talking about performance.

What makes you confused is your support for liberalism that carries destruction of babies via abortion. That is against God.

Otherwise many of what you are saying sometimes I agree with you. But not consistent because you are confused. Please think about it. I am your sister in Christ.

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Sep 14, 2019 23:24:30   #
rumitoid (a regular here)
 
Radiance3 wrote:
=================
Rumi, why do you always question the wisdom of God? God said, we are not of this world.
I think in the Book of Revelation, God has tested our performance living in this world, and warning us that if we continue our ways not in conformity with him, there will be punishment. And those who've behaved will be rewarded. God's performance evaluation of our behavior, he warned us to correct or else face punishments. I think that is the simple way of explaining it.

Our life in this world is temporary, a journey that we pass through. Satan's power is in this world.

The phrase “not of this world” is perhaps most well-known for being a Christian. But what exactly does it mean that Christians are “not of this world”? The phrase comes from John 18:36 where Jesus says that His kingdom is “not of this world.” As His followers, Christians are members of His kingdom which is “not of this world,” that is, heaven (Philippians 3:20). Yes, we are on earth for now, but our earthly lives are nothing but a vapor (James 4:14). But eternity, now that is a long time, and that is where a Christian’s focus should really be (1 Peter 5:10).

1 Peter 5:10, "And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you." ... 1 Peter 5:10, NLT: "In his kindness God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus.
================= br Rumi, why do you always quest... (show quote)


If it is about our not conforming that brings on the Tribulation, I think God is a smart guy and sees it will never happen. My question: why does he wait. All the harm and sin-producing circumstances of war, the terrible harm to the innocent. What is he waiting for if the Tribulation is true?

"Not of this world" is not about location to me, heaven or Earth, but of spirit. Selfless love is the command and that overrides all--ALL--other concerns. Life, property, country, and even family.

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Sep 14, 2019 23:29:13   #
Radiance3 (a regular here)
 
rumitoid wrote:
If it is about our not conforming that brings on the Tribulation, I think God is a smart guy and sees it will never happen. My question: why does he wait. All the harm and sin-producing circumstances of war, the terrible harm to the innocent. What is he waiting for if the Tribulation is true?

"Not of this world" is not about location to me, heaven or Earth, but of spirit. Selfless love is the command and that overrides all--ALL--other concerns. Life, property, country, and even family.
If it is about our not conforming that brings on t... (show quote)

===============
I am sorry Rumi, you are really confused. Please read again the Holy Bible. I hope you find the right path.

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Sep 14, 2019 23:34:45   #
rumitoid (a regular here)
 
Pennylynn wrote:
The book of Revelations is a combination. The first part are letters to churches established by Saul and his followers. And in the first Bibles, stood alone. The second part is a retelling, the only Judæo-Christian work which survived the Paulinian transformation of the Church, of several Jewish apocalypses worked into one reveal.


You always have good background, thank you.

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Sep 14, 2019 23:35:41   #
rumitoid (a regular here)
 
Radiance3 wrote:
===============
I am sorry Rumi, you are really confused. Please read again the Holy Bible. I hope you find the right path.


Thank you.

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