One Political Plaza - Home of politics
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main
Let Us Discuss Impeachment
Page 1 of 3 next> last>>
May 21, 2019 22:18:27   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
President Clinton was NOT impeached for sexual misbehavior. His impeachment was for lying under oath to a federal grand jury and obstructing justice. When it got to the Senate, they acquitted him on both charges. They rejected the first charge of perjury, 45 Democrats and 10 Republicans v**ed “not guilty” and on the charge of obstruction of justice the Senate was split 50-50.

President Nixon was not impeached.

Andrew Johnson was impeached on 11 articles, nine of which cite Johnson’s removal of Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, a violation of the Tenure of Office Act. More interesting is the underlying or real reasons, it was his lenient Reconstruction policy for the defeated South, including almost total amnesty to ex-Confederates, a program of rapid restoration of U.S.-state status for the seceded states, and the approval of new, local Southern governments. In other words they punished him because he wanted to rebuild the Southern states instead of keeping those individuals impoverished and dependent on, and thereby controlled by the North.

To find a way to get rid of Johnson, in March 1867, the Republican-dominated Congress (this is prior to the flip of names (Republicans became Democrats)) passed the Tenure of Office Act over the president’s veto. The bill prohibited the president from removing officials confirmed by the Senate without senatorial approval and was designed to shield members of Johnson’s Cabinet like Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, who had been a leading Republican radical in the Lincoln administration. In the fall of 1867, President Johnson attempted to test the constitutionality of the act by replacing Stanton with General Ulysses S. Grant. However, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to rule on the case, and Grant turned the office back to Stanton after the Senate passed a measure in protest of the dismissal.

On February 21, 1868, Johnson decided to rid himself of Stanton once and for all and appointed General Lorenzo Thomas, an individual far less favorable to the Congress than Grant, as secretary of war. Stanton refused to yield, barricading himself in his office, and the House of Representatives, which had already discussed impeachment after Johnson’s first dismissal of Stanton, initiated formal impeachment proceedings against the president. On February 24, Johnson was impeached, and on March 13 his impeachment trial began in the Senate under the direction of U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase. The trial ended on May 26 with Johnson’s opponents narrowly failing to achieve the two-thirds majority necessary to convict him.

So, no President has been removed from office, impeached yes, but never removed.

Another thing that some folks do not understand, both Presidents that were impeached, Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, were impeached for actions while president. Impeachment is set aside for crimes committed as a government official. This is interesting situation, if the House impeaches President Trump for actions he took while a civilian, will this open a can of worms allowing impeachment of past presidents, stripping them of their title as President? Another question, must there be a crime? Some claim that no crime is necessary. The bad act may or may not be a crime but it would be more serious than simply "maladministration." This view is buttressed in part by an analysis of the entire phrase "high crimes or misdemeanors" which seems to be a term of art speaking to a political connection for the bad act or acts. In order to impeach it would not be necessary for the act to be a crime, but not all crimes would be impeachable offenses.

Now, I open this up for civil discussion. Whether you love, only tolerate, or simply h**e President Trump does not matter. Consider if he is impeached..... what consequences will it bring for past and future presidents. Do we want a president that serves at the pleasure of Congress? And if he is impeached for "crimes" or "impeachable offense is wh**ever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history; conviction results from wh**ever offense or offenses two-thirds of the other body considers to be sufficiently serious to require removal of the accused from office..." according to Congressman Gerald Ford... will anyone be eligible for the office? Everyone has a skeleton or two in their past, and how far in the past should they be investigated?

All opinions are welcome, but be civil!

Reply
May 21, 2019 22:44:45   #
DaWg44
 
I think if a President can be impeached for anything he/she did before being elected, short of major heinous crime, all Senators & Representatives should be quickly impeached for their crimes while in office, not just meaningless censure.

What happened to Statesmen, reckon I better say Statespersons? How did politician become a full time, extremely lucrative job? The original Senators & Representatives worked for nothing, got the job done quickly, & went back home for the year, no retirement plan, free healthcare, no security details, no covey of staff. There were no 10-20,000 page bills.

When one looks at what those people accomplished, compared to what our bunch has accomplished in the last 50 years, we are not getting our money’s worth for sure.

Reply
May 22, 2019 00:26:56   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
Pennylynn wrote:
President Clinton was NOT impeached for sexual misbehavior. His impeachment was for lying under oath to a federal grand jury and obstructing justice. When it got to the Senate, they acquitted him on both charges. They rejected the first charge of perjury, 45 Democrats and 10 Republicans v**ed “not guilty” and on the charge of obstruction of justice the Senate was split 50-50.

President Nixon was not impeached.

Andrew Johnson was impeached on 11 articles, nine of which cite Johnson’s removal of Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, a violation of the Tenure of Office Act. More interesting is the underlying or real reasons, it was his lenient Reconstruction policy for the defeated South, including almost total amnesty to ex-Confederates, a program of rapid restoration of U.S.-state status for the seceded states, and the approval of new, local Southern governments. In other words they punished him because he wanted to rebuild the Southern states instead of keeping those individuals impoverished and dependent on, and thereby controlled by the North.

To find a way to get rid of Johnson, in March 1867, the Republican-dominated Congress (this is prior to the flip of names (Republicans became Democrats)) passed the Tenure of Office Act over the president’s veto. The bill prohibited the president from removing officials confirmed by the Senate without senatorial approval and was designed to shield members of Johnson’s Cabinet like Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, who had been a leading Republican radical in the Lincoln administration. In the fall of 1867, President Johnson attempted to test the constitutionality of the act by replacing Stanton with General Ulysses S. Grant. However, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to rule on the case, and Grant turned the office back to Stanton after the Senate passed a measure in protest of the dismissal.

On February 21, 1868, Johnson decided to rid himself of Stanton once and for all and appointed General Lorenzo Thomas, an individual far less favorable to the Congress than Grant, as secretary of war. Stanton refused to yield, barricading himself in his office, and the House of Representatives, which had already discussed impeachment after Johnson’s first dismissal of Stanton, initiated formal impeachment proceedings against the president. On February 24, Johnson was impeached, and on March 13 his impeachment trial began in the Senate under the direction of U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase. The trial ended on May 26 with Johnson’s opponents narrowly failing to achieve the two-thirds majority necessary to convict him.

So, no President has been removed from office, impeached yes, but never removed.

Another thing that some folks do not understand, both Presidents that were impeached, Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, were impeached for actions while president. Impeachment is set aside for crimes committed as a government official. This is interesting situation, if the House impeaches President Trump for actions he took while a civilian, will this open a can of worms allowing impeachment of past presidents, stripping them of their title as President? Another question, must there be a crime? Some claim that no crime is necessary. The bad act may or may not be a crime but it would be more serious than simply "maladministration." This view is buttressed in part by an analysis of the entire phrase "high crimes or misdemeanors" which seems to be a term of art speaking to a political connection for the bad act or acts. In order to impeach it would not be necessary for the act to be a crime, but not all crimes would be impeachable offenses.

Now, I open this up for civil discussion. Whether you love, only tolerate, or simply h**e President Trump does not matter. Consider if he is impeached..... what consequences will it bring for past and future presidents. Do we want a president that serves at the pleasure of Congress? And if he is impeached for "crimes" or "impeachable offense is wh**ever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history; conviction results from wh**ever offense or offenses two-thirds of the other body considers to be sufficiently serious to require removal of the accused from office..." according to Congressman Gerald Ford... will anyone be eligible for the office? Everyone has a skeleton or two in their past, and how far in the past should they be investigated?

All opinions are welcome, but be civil!
President Clinton was NOT impeached for sexual mis... (show quote)


Hello, Pennlynn, I hope you are well tonight,
You know, all of this mess about Trump has taught me some facts that I would have never believed had they not happened.
#!. Citizens trying to stop the inaugural procession by attacking cars and business's windows...r**ting in general. Unbelievable!
#2. Wh**ever party is in the White House is disliked by the other party...always has been. But I have NEVER witnessed a duly elected president treated so shamefully. Even reporters are showing no respect for the office.
#3. Many have made threats against Trump which includes assassination, deporting the first lady, and even putting Trumps 12 year old son in a cell with a molester. I thought that was illegal.
#4. That ANYBODY outside of congress and the Supreme Court could stay a p**********l order.
#5. The only ones who respect Trump are the foreign nations because they have no choice!
I just wanted to get that off of my chest before I talk about impeachment. I thought a president had to do something pretty bad to be impeached. Younger and dumber, I liked Bill Clinton and thought that he should NOT have been impeached for lying. But these days, I know how important it was for the American people to know the t***h. Still, he wasn't taken out of office.
So, what has Trump done to be impeached? Will they impeach him because of the great economy? Or trying to secure our southern border? Or getting better trade deals worldwide?
So, now some are saying there doesn't "have" to be a crime! So, what is the reason for impeachment?


THE DEMOCRATS DON'T 'LIKE' HIM !!! THAT'S ALL THERE IS, THAT'S IT!!!


Absolutely beyond belief!!!!

Reply
 
 
May 22, 2019 00:28:06   #
2bltap Loc: Move to the Mainland
 
DaWg44 wrote:
I think if a President can be impeached for anything he/she did before being elected, short of major heinous crime, all Senators & Representatives should be quickly impeached for their crimes while in office, not just meaningless censure.

What happened to Statesmen, reckon I better say Statespersons? How did politician become a full time, extremely lucrative job? The original Senators & Representatives worked for nothing, got the job done quickly, & went back home for the year, no retirement plan, free healthcare, no security details, no covey of staff. There were no 10-20,000 page bills.

When one looks at what those people accomplished, compared to what our bunch has accomplished in the last 50 years, we are not getting our money’s worth for sure.
I think if a President can be impeached for anythi... (show quote)



Reply
May 22, 2019 01:26:21   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
maximus wrote:
Hello, Pennlynn, I hope you are well tonight,
You know, all of this mess about Trump has taught me some facts that I would have never believed had they not happened.
#!. Citizens trying to stop the inaugural procession by attacking cars and business's windows...r**ting in general. Unbelievable!
#2. Wh**ever party is in the White House is disliked by the other party...always has been. But I have NEVER witnessed a duly elected president treated so shamefully. Even reporters are showing no respect for the office.
#3. Many have made threats against Trump which includes assassination, deporting the first lady, and even putting Trumps 12 year old son in a cell with a molester. I thought that was illegal.
#4. That ANYBODY outside of congress and the Supreme Court could stay a p**********l order.
#5. The only ones who respect Trump are the foreign nations because they have no choice!
I just wanted to get that off of my chest before I talk about impeachment. I thought a president had to do something pretty bad to be impeached. Younger and dumber, I liked Bill Clinton and thought that he should NOT have been impeached for lying. But these days, I know how important it was for the American people to know the t***h. Still, he wasn't taken out of office.
So, what has Trump done to be impeached? Will they impeach him because of the great economy? Or trying to secure our southern border? Or getting better trade deals worldwide?
So, now some are saying there doesn't "have" to be a crime! So, what is the reason for impeachment?


THE DEMOCRATS DON'T 'LIKE' HIM !!! THAT'S ALL THERE IS, THAT'S IT!!!


Absolutely beyond belief!!!!
Hello, Pennlynn, I hope you are well tonight, br Y... (show quote)


Good points. First, it is my opinion, that a government official can not nor does the Constitution support impeachment for crimes committed before they were appointed or elected. However, as implied by Ford, the House may decide to hold a president accountable for matters unrelated to being president and irrespective of time. The SC has yet to rule on matters of impeachment. But, it just may be time for them to weigh in.

So, technically, and supported by past impeachment events, no actions taken before inauguration day, meaning January 2017 is admissible as impeachment but could be considered in civilian court. Meaning his taxes can be an issue for civilian courts but not for impeachment. Likewise ordinarily the actions of his staff can not be chargeable against President Trump unless he ordered them as a condition of continued employment to commit a crime. This practically eliminates all of Volume 2 of the Mueller Report. The remainder of the complaints there is a further issue, proving that the "crime" was the intent of the President. Indeed, the majority of the remainder hinges on memory of the person being questioned.... so a he said/she said. Hardly proof that either side is being t***hful.

If you accept the Ford summation, then they "the House" do not need a legal reason. It all hinges upon what they "feel" is an impeachable offense. And herein is the problem. If the House can use any rationale to impeach the President, then all future and past presidents can be impeached if the House determines a traffic ticket when the president or government official was 16 is sufficient ground.

But, other than spending an inordinate amount of tax money and time taken from more important matters, and personal embarrassment, an Impeachment means nothing unless the Senate v**es to expel the president. And until this time, no president has ever been removed from office. The reason is simple, the Senate must "try" the president with witnesses and the preponderance of evidence, not gut "feelings" that something was done or not done.

Reply
May 22, 2019 01:44:01   #
JW
 
Pennylynn wrote:

...

To find a way to get rid of Johnson, in March 1867, the Republican-dominated Congress (this is prior to the flip of names (Republicans became Democrats)) ...

...


Republicans never became Democrats but at one point a faction of the Democrats called themselves the Democratic Republicans. The Republican party was a remodeling of the pre-(civil)war Whig party. They have been Republicans ever since.

Reply
May 22, 2019 01:45:04   #
DaWg44
 
maximus wrote:
Hello, Pennlynn, I hope you are well tonight,
You know, all of this mess about Trump has taught me some facts that I would have never believed had they not happened.
#!. Citizens trying to stop the inaugural procession by attacking cars and business's windows...r**ting in general. Unbelievable!
#2. Wh**ever party is in the White House is disliked by the other party...always has been. But I have NEVER witnessed a duly elected president treated so shamefully. Even reporters are showing no respect for the office.
#3. Many have made threats against Trump which includes assassination, deporting the first lady, and even putting Trumps 12 year old son in a cell with a molester. I thought that was illegal.
#4. That ANYBODY outside of congress and the Supreme Court could stay a p**********l order.
#5. The only ones who respect Trump are the foreign nations because they have no choice!
I just wanted to get that off of my chest before I talk about impeachment. I thought a president had to do something pretty bad to be impeached. Younger and dumber, I liked Bill Clinton and thought that he should NOT have been impeached for lying. But these days, I know how important it was for the American people to know the t***h. Still, he wasn't taken out of office.
So, what has Trump done to be impeached? Will they impeach him because of the great economy? Or trying to secure our southern border? Or getting better trade deals worldwide?
So, now some are saying there doesn't "have" to be a crime! So, what is the reason for impeachment?


THE DEMOCRATS DON'T 'LIKE' HIM !!! THAT'S ALL THERE IS, THAT'S IT!!!


Absolutely beyond belief!!!!
Hello, Pennlynn, I hope you are well tonight, br Y... (show quote)


I am having a hard time w/ the liberal/l*****t/democrat “guilty until proven innocent” approach to everyone except their own. I despise the IRS for having that authority. I have been audited 3 times, threatened w/ fines, confiscation of property, & prison. I was right all three times, got more refund than I had on my return.

When damn political parties are more important than elected officials’ duty to honor their oath to our Country, we are in trouble.

I had an uncle, retired USMC colonel who told me when I was very young, “Boy, when seeing the f**g waving, hearing The National Anthem, doesn’t get your attention, you need to take a good look at how you are living. No country is perfect, that is reserved for God, but this is your Country, you have been blessed to be born here, never let it down.” I never knew until he died how decorated he was. The thing that touched me most was carbon copies of hundreds of letters he wrote, in his own hand writing, to mothers, fathers, spouses, of Marines he lost & the letters he received in return.

I think he would have a hard time understanding what is happening now.

Reply
 
 
May 22, 2019 02:19:20   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
JW wrote:
Republicans never became Democrats but at one point a faction of the Democrats called themselves the Democratic Republicans. The Republican party was a remodeling of the pre-(civil)war Whig party. They have been Republicans ever since.


I was taking about party platforms, sometime between the 1860s and 1936, the (Democratic) party of small government became the party of big government, and the (Republican) party of big government became rhetorically committed to curbing federal power. The t***sformation was solidified by the New Deal in the 30's.

So, can we now address Impeachment?

Reply
May 22, 2019 02:34:43   #
elledee
 
face it Trump's guilty .....of kicking the Dems and hitlery's ass....and the Trump train rolls on...MAGA!!!!!
in other news parasitic political hacks AKA dems and rinos continue to enjoy paychecks and benefits most Americans can only dream of out of our wallets.....and then extreme anger set in.....

Reply
May 22, 2019 03:35:56   #
JW
 
Pennylynn wrote:
I was taking about party platforms, sometime between the 1860s and 1936, the (Democratic) party of small government became the party of big government, and the (Republican) party of big government became rhetorically committed to curbing federal power. The t***sformation was solidified by the New Deal in the 30's.

So, can we now address Impeachment?


That is not what you said.

The only thing impeachment will accomplish is to dirty Trump's name... and the Dems know it. Trump is much more popular than the polls say. Impeaching him will hurt the Dems bigly in 2020.

Reply
May 22, 2019 03:52:32   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
JW wrote:
That is not what you said.

The only thing impeachment will accomplish is to dirty Trump's name... and the Dems know it. Trump is much more popular than the polls say. Impeaching him will hurt the Dems bigly in 2020.


So, you wish to pick apart the wording, okay. I was inaccurate in my term "flipping." Happy now?

In the view of many progressives, President Trump name can not be dirtier or tarnished. In the mind of many conservatives, they do not necessarily care about his personal characteristics caring more for how our nation is recovering and growing.

I think if the House impeaches him then they will lose their excuse for ignoring serious problems. If they do not impeach, then the many progressives may grow impatient and decide to v**e for Green Party or even any Socialist that makes it onto the b****t. Either way, the Democrats will have a hard row to hoe to remain in the competition and I am talking about beyond 2020. We may find ourselves a Socialist society.

Reply
 
 
May 22, 2019 04:39:25   #
JW
 
Pennylynn wrote:
So, you wish to pick apart the wording, okay. I was inaccurate in my term "flipping." Happy now?

In the view of many progressives, President Trump name can not be dirtier or tarnished. In the mind of many conservatives, they do not necessarily care about his personal characteristics caring more for how our nation is recovering and growing.

I think if the House impeaches him then they will lose their excuse for ignoring serious problems. If they do not impeach, then the many progressives may grow impatient and decide to v**e for Green Party or even any Socialist that makes it onto the b****t. Either way, the Democrats will have a hard row to hoe to remain in the competition and I am talking about beyond 2020. We may find ourselves a Socialist society.
So, you wish to pick apart the wording, okay. I w... (show quote)


I would have some problems with him if he was running for Pope. For President, the only material concern is his policies and he's doing that right... errr, Right.

If the e*****rate can be persuaded that we are a Democracy and they elect people ignorant enough to believe it, Socialism is a real possibility. However, they will still have to get past the structure of the Constitutional Republic we are governed by. That will require a major overhaul of the Constitution or an armed revolution.

Reply
May 22, 2019 05:47:32   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
Pennylynn wrote:
So, you wish to pick apart the wording, okay. I was inaccurate in my term "flipping." Happy now?

In the view of many progressives, President Trump name can not be dirtier or tarnished. In the mind of many conservatives, they do not necessarily care about his personal characteristics caring more for how our nation is recovering and growing.

I think if the House impeaches him then they will lose their excuse for ignoring serious problems. If they do not impeach, then the many progressives may grow impatient and decide to v**e for Green Party or even any Socialist that makes it onto the b****t. Either way, the Democrats will have a hard row to hoe to remain in the competition and I am talking about beyond 2020. We may find ourselves a Socialist society.
So, you wish to pick apart the wording, okay. I w... (show quote)




If Trump is impeached for what most Americans would consider to be nonsense, then the path is opened for every president to be impeached whenever there is an opposing party majority. It would make any president's job pretty much impossible while making impeachment a joke instead of a process of the most serious accusations.
Hopefully, a majority of Democrats do not want this. If not, we may witness our government becoming a three ring circus whenever the party of the majority doesn't "like" the president.

Reply
May 22, 2019 06:16:18   #
Boo_Boo Loc: Jellystone
 
maximus wrote:
If Trump is impeached for what most Americans would consider to be nonsense, then the path is opened for every president to be impeached whenever there is an opposing party majority. It would make any president's job pretty much impossible while making impeachment a joke instead of a process of the most serious accusations.
Hopefully, a majority of Democrats do not want this. If not, we may witness our government becoming a three ring circus whenever the party of the majority doesn't "like" the president.
If Trump is impeached for what most Americans woul... (show quote)


I agree with you, it would force the President (regardless of which party is in power) into a servant of the House. So, control would pass from checks and balance to a dominance of the party serving in the House. This, of course, is contrary to how the Republic was intended by our founding fathers. I h**e to say it, but it would seem that the members of the House is so intent on destroying President Trump that they are ignoring the potential consequences of their action. Having said that, we are proud members of US citizenry and to be honest not many are capable of independent thought, they have to be told what to think. Our media gives them a daily supply of misinformation, political propaganda, and down right lies. Of course the media is financially dependent so their "news" is up for sale to the people who have the deepest pockets.

Reply
May 22, 2019 06:49:25   #
maximus Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
 
Pennylynn wrote:
I agree with you, it would force the President (regardless of which party is in power) into a servant of the House. So, control would pass from checks and balance to a dominance of the party serving in the House. This, of course, is contrary to how the Republic was intended by our founding fathers. I h**e to say it, but it would seem that the members of the House is so intent on destroying President Trump that they are ignoring the potential consequences of their action. Having said that, we are proud members of US citizenry and to be honest not many are capable of independent thought, they have to be told what to think. Our media gives them a daily supply of misinformation, political propaganda, and down right lies. Of course the media is financially dependent so their "news" is up for sale to the people who have the deepest pockets.
I agree with you, it would force the President (re... (show quote)


I totally agree except for one thing; I believe that MOST people are very capable of independent thought, but it takes something hitting them hard enough to "wake them up" and get them to pay attention. I also believe that this IS what's happening across the country, but the MSM isn't reporting it.

Reply
Page 1 of 3 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main
OnePoliticalPlaza.com - Forum
Copyright 2012-2024 IDF International Technologies, Inc.